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MMO-Lite The Matrix

klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
edited July 2018 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
MMO: World of Warcraft, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, ESO (+100 PPI)

MMO-Lite: Guild Wars 1, Destiny, The Division, Warframe, Anthem, Fallout76, Star Citizen, Grand Theft Auto Online (+16 PPI)

Lobby Shooters without the MMO features: Fortnite, PUBG, Call of Duty, any battle royale (10-100 PPI)  

Lobby Co-OP Games without  the MMO features: Diablo 3, Gears of War, Path of Exiles, Farcry 5, No Mans Sky  (4 PPI)

*PPI= Player Per Instance



Before you attack me understand I wrote the above to prove that there are different types of games in the multiplayer online space. Also, I'm not really trying to get into semantics, I already said time and time again the term MMO itself as in the Massively part is a buzzword from the early 2000s that helped usher in a whole new way of thinking for a generation of gamers.. all of that aside...

WE ALL KNOW WHAT MMOS USED TO BE!

But what are they today?

MMOs have changed and if you haven't realized it yet then maybe this helps.

Destiny, Warframe, Division, Fallout76, Anthem etc are ushering in the new era of "MMO" the  "MMO-Lite"

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM: SIZE vs EXPERIENCE

MMO isn't about the size anymore, I've said this so many times, it's about the experience. The MMO experience is in all of these games, that is something undeniable. The only argument I see here on the holy grail is that the lite games cant support 500-1000 people at once per lobby. That concept of 500 people playing in the same space is dated and applies only to traditional MMOs. Whats funny is Dungeons are 4-5 people at a time, Raids 40 at a time, PVP is 20 v 20, or 40 v 40 max on some games.. but let's not act like you are constantly with 500+ people in your personal game space because you are not. Fortnite has 100 PPI but is not an MMO or MMO lite.
It's not the number of people playing that makes a game MMO... again the point about Massively being a buzzword only. I Digress. 

THE MONEY: Lots of It

Publishers follow the money. Traditional MMO games are a big risk, a big investment with little to no payoff so nobody is willing to do it, but, and TRUMP BUTT (T H I C C ) the MMO features are so good and sell so well, that you can add them to other types of popular games, add in a fair cash shop and you can give away the game/content for "FREE". This is how these games survived mostly, they cut the idea of a Subscription (mostly anyway) and went buy to play forever, we will update later, add cash-shop and a few xpacs, and there's your new MMO Business Model. Look at GTA Online. 

Warframe has 40 Million people playing it. They gave it out for free. Destiny and The Division both 20m. B2P games.

No Traditional MMO (Again Maybe peak WoW) ever had those numbers so you are right they aren't traditional MMOs, and they don't wanna be.  20-40 Million potential customers buying a $5.00 cosmetic is a hell of a lot of money. 


YOUR MMO HAS EVOLVED! MMO-LITE DATA SAVED IN POKEDEX!

You don't have to correct everyone who says MMO to these games. It makes you sound outdated, old and bitter. They are MMOs. MMO-Lites but still, types of MMOs. A revolution of the MMO.

This isn't Diablo or Fortnite we are talking about. We are talking about games with obvious MMO features.  large persistent worlds, character progression, no offline mode, Item tiers, expansion packs, guilds, PvP/PvE, raids, dungeons, prestige raids.. etc etc etc etc... the list goes on. These are all things you can do in both MMO-Lites and MMOs.

Diablo just misses the MMO-Lite title because it only allows 4 players at a time across all its modes, therefore its just a CO-OP Action RPG. If Diablo would allow 10-20 people per lobby then that's an MMO-Lite. But it doesn't. Warframe, Destiny, Division, GTAO does.


BIG CATS AND LITTLE CATS (Conclusion)

Tigers and Tabbys are both CATS. Different types of CATS but still the features are so similar that you have to call both CATS. Tabby is "CAT-Lite"  Tigers are "CATS".  You don't get to say Stop calling Tabbys "CATS" because they aren't big or as vicious as Tigers. You also don't get to say "wElL wAt aBooUt KhAjiiTT kAts bYe uR deFinishUn tHaT's a KaT toO."  Khajiit is a fictional cat/human thing and Fictional cat/human things deserve their own category. I was talking about just Cats.

Well, Dragonborn Jonny, I already said what Diablo is, and I told you what Destiny is. Both are cool and Similar but not the same thing and should be separated. MMO-Lite is very specific. 

Some of the top games in the world are "MMO-lite" and that's hard for a person with rose tinted glasses to see, but that's okay, it doesn't change anything!

To me, what is happening is the evolution of a Genre we loved growing up. The traditional MMO as we knew has all but died. From its ashes comes the MMO lite. It's up to us to accept it or not but it's here and more than likely not going anywhere. Who knows maybe its just a placeholder for what's next but we would be fools to not pay attention and try to ignore it in hopes of getting the year 2003 back. 

Random but relevant, I wonder if the people who played MUDs were in denial of the change when Meridian59 and UO came out? Could you imagine? 1995 Forums: "Why Meridan59 isn't a MUD" or  1997: "Ultima Online is just a MUD with graphics"

lol Keanu Reeves sounds more Matrixy than Neo. 
"PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

"Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
 
Currently: Games Audio Engineer
You've heard what I've heard

GdemamiMaurgrimAmathemmolouKyleranElquinMrMelGibsonpsychosiz1moshraIronside81and 1 other.
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Comments

  • Siris23Siris23 Member UncommonPosts: 372
    MMO-lite /sigh

    Can I start calling myself a small giant, because calling things what they actually are isn't the thing to do.
    ScotXarkoKyleranElquinMrMelGibsonpsychosiz1SedrynTyrosTheScavengerScorchien
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    Siris23 said:
    MMO-lite /sigh

    Can I start calling myself a small giant, because calling things what they actually are isn't the thing to do.

    A real question here:  did you actually read or just respond to the title? 
    GdemamiKyleranMrMelGibsonpsychosiz1Ironside81TheScavenger
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,777
    My brother once told me, "for a smart kid, you're pretty stupid"
    KyleranElquinMrMelGibsonIronside81
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    I don't really care about defining whether or not something is an 'MMO'. It's the least important thing about a game.

    I could have no interaction with anyone in WoW one day, even though I see them all the time.. but in Destiny I would regularly have people working with me to achieve a goal, like completing a zone event.

    On that day, Destiny was more multiplayer than WoW was...
    klash2defIronside81
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    edited July 2018
    Ok..@Cyromatrix

    Did you read or just come here to passive-aggressively insult me? 
    GdemamiIronside81
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    I don't really care about defining whether or not something is an 'MMO'. It's the least important thing about a game.

    I could have no interaction with anyone in WoW one day, even though I see them all the time.. but in Destiny I would regularly have people working with me to achieve a goal, like completing a zone event.

    On that day, Destiny was more multiplayer than WoW was...
    True I'm not really trying to define MMO (been there done that) as much as I'm trying to Define whats MMO-Lite. It's only an observation. I agree with your point too. Some games are more active than others making them feel more multiplayer than others and that counts for something. 

    Interesting times. MMO-Lites are more Multiplayer than some Traditional MMOs these days.
    GdemamiKyleran
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,777
    klash2def said:
    Ok..@Cyromatrix

    Did you read or just come here to passive-aggressively insult me? 
    Not at all. I was trying to say that my bro labeled me something. I was trying to be funny and not offensive to you. I meant you no harm. I read a little bit then realized it was a long post and stopped reading. 

    Just adding labels to things . . . Basically I'm being a tool and meant no disrespect to you.
    GdemamiMrMelGibson
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    I was hoping to read more about an MMO-lite Matrix game you was turning us all on to.
    Po_ggAethaerynpsychosiz1Ironside81
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,820
    klash2def said:
    You don't have to correct everyone who says MMO to these games. It makes you sound outdated, old and bitter. They are MMOs.
    They are not. No matter how much caps and bold and italic you use, it won't change that.
    Doesn't matter how outdated and old it sounds. Oh, and bitter too, almost forget that, you know, the old age...
    :smile:

    Asheram said:
    I was hoping to read more about an MMO-lite Matrix game you was turning us all on to.
    Yep, based on the title I too was expecting an info drop about some upcoming new Matrix-like game.
    GdemamiScorchienKyleranmmolouElquinVynt
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited July 2018

    No - MMO - Lineage, L2, UO, EVE, SWG

    MMO- Lite - World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, ESO

    You cannot call an instanced game with solo safe PvE world a MMORPG and to put in the same label with OW games.

    GdemamimmolouKyleranMrMelGibson
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,251
    edited July 2018
    MMO-Lite?

    Used to be called multiplayer, if I'm not misstaken Guild Wars 1 were labled multiplay .
    ScotScorchienElquin
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,216
    edited July 2018
    The thing is though Klash2Def would you want a tiger or a pussycat as a pet? :)

    You said yourself, MMOs have evolved...have they evolved past the point where games you are calling MMO-lite should not be using MMO anymore?

    Your list of games is much like what I would knock up, only difference being you have brought quite different styles of gameplay under MMO-lite. That is not a huge issue for me it is when MMO-lite games get put on lists with MMOs or is discussed as if they are an MMORPG, that I really disagree with.
    Post edited by Scot on
    Gdemamiklash2def

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,920
      Sigh ... again ............  Listen we are all very sympathetic to whatever shortcomings you are forced to deal with in life ,But coming here once a month to try and convince us that "Size doesnt matter"  wont work ..

      As in ALL things in Life


                             SIZE DOES MATTER
    JeffSpicolimmolouElquin
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    Gonna bring this thread up again in 12 months.
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    I look at MMOlite as games that work in the MMO framework with less players. For themepark MMORPG there isn't much difference gameplay wise.
    klash2def
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,208
    It's like beer.

    There used to be only a few brands. And nothing modern like Lite beer or Seasonal beer.

    But now there is every kind of beer. Zillions of little micro beers and who all knows what. 

    That doesn't mean beer sucks.

    It means beer has diversified.

    It means more choices. More flavors. Different pricing.  

    And when a popular brand fades away, stick around - because someday, someone will bring it, or something like it, back. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    ikcin said:

    No - MMO - Lineage, L2, UO, EVE, SWG

    MMO- Lite - World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, ESO

    You cannot call an instanced game with solo safe PvE world a MMORPG and to put in the same label with OW games.

    Thanks for adding to the confusion, makes this thread prit near perfect.

    Just need @nariusseldon to complete the scene.


    ScorchienVermillion_RaventhalElquin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    edited October 2018
    Amathe said:
    It's like beer.

    There used to be only a few brands. And nothing modern like Lite beer or Seasonal beer.

    But now there is every kind of beer. Zillions of little micro beers and who all knows what. 

    That doesn't mean beer sucks.

    It means beer has diversified.

    It means more choices. More flavors. Different pricing.  

    And when a popular brand fades away, stick around - because someday, someone will bring it, or something like it, back. 
    But it does not mean Angry Orchard Cider is "beer" nor anything like Pete's Wicked Ale despite their similarities and usage.


    Sensai

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    klash2def said:
    Siris23 said:
    MMO-lite /sigh

    Can I start calling myself a small giant, because calling things what they actually are isn't the thing to do.

    A real question here:  did you actually read or just respond to the title? 
    I read all of it, you are completely wrong, so much so you can't tell the difference between a tiger and  tabby.

    It might be true all tigers are (big) cats, but clearly not all "cats" are tigers.

    Same here, all MMORPGS are massively multiplayer games, but not all games are massively multiplayer.

    Saying otherwise makes one look willfully ignorant and out of touch with reality.




    ElquinScorchien

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    klash2def said:
    Gonna bring this thread up again in 12 months.
    Please do, I enjoy pointing out when people are totally wrong,  in fact it's almost a hobby,  and so easy to do.
    ScorchienElquinmaskedweasel

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 1,995
    edited October 2018
    No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.


    Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.


    How can OP feel they can argue what MMO stands for when they make a statement like "MMO features"... .there are no "MMO features" as the only FEATURE MMO stands for is the fact its a massive amount of people playing together online. OP is probably trying to apply the standardized features of an MMORPG to the rules. OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.
    KyleranElquin
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,179
    ROFL
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    edited October 2018
    Kyleran said:
    klash2def said:
    Siris23 said:
    MMO-lite /sigh

    Can I start calling myself a small giant, because calling things what they actually are isn't the thing to do.

    A real question here:  did you actually read or just respond to the title? 
    I read all of it, you are completely wrong, so much so you can't tell the difference between a tiger and  tabby.

    It might be true all tigers are (big) cats, but clearly not all "cats" are tigers.

    Same here, all MMORPGS are massively multiplayer games, but not all games are massively multiplayer.

    Saying otherwise makes one look willfully ignorant and out of touch with reality.






    Its amazing how some people on this website will always try to change the narrative as if its going to go unnoticed.


    I never said all games are massively multiplayer. Don't lie. 

    I never said "all cats are tigers."  I never said all games are MMORPGs. Where did you get that from? Please stop acting like a Y2k glitch, its 2018.

    Again. A tabby (small cat) and a Tiger (big cat) are both types of cats. 
    Again. A MMO-lite (DESTINY) and a MMORPG (WoW) are both types of MMOs. 

    How are you missing this? How did you fix the above as me saying "all games are MMOs"
    huh? 

    You can be in denial all you want about the changes happening but its not going to change the facts. 

    Old School MMOs are done. Deal with it. MMO Lites are filling the mmo voids for millions of people. (Yes millions play Destiny) Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. The only person who looks out of touch are the people like yourself that yearn for "old school" MMOs so much that they hate on anything new or popular. Let it go. You constantly hate.

    I don't have to tell you Destiny or Warframe are MMO-Lites you can see yourself when you play. I'm not breaking it down again. As I said I'm going to bring this topic up again in 12 months. its getting harder and harder each year for people like yourself to deny the change. Its happening. You don't have to accept it.  

    and since you want to be passive aggressive, let me remind you that -You- look willfully like a out of touch "back in my day!" face ass gamer.

    Isn't there a emulator you can get on? Don't you miss Vanguard, SWG or UO? Go hop in your time machine.

    Stay mad that your y2k term slightly means something else today.

    KyleranmmolouElquin
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,571
    edited October 2018
    madazz said:
    No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.

    Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.

    OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.
    in 2018 MMO-Lite makes a whole lot of sense. What are you talking about, have you played any of these games? I don't -Need- to do anything.

    Damn.. its really mostly old y2k dudes on this website bitching about the closure of  games from 15 years ago. You are so bitter that you cant see anything new happening with the Genre. Your old MMO game is over. Its not coming back no matter how hard you cry. Older people have a hard time with sight especially foresight. MMO-Lites are the future of MMOs. You don't have to like it. You dont need to accept. It's already happening. 

    Btw this part you typed "MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that"

    .. sounds exactly like Destiny. I love that word, its just rolls off the finger tips. -DESTINY-

    Much better than "idiots" . I guess idiots is actually a pretty standard word for someone like yourself. Cool usage kip. Nice, I guess. 

    You also can stay mad that your y2k term slightly means something else today.
    KyleranmmolouIsilithTehroth
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    madazz said:
    No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.


    Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.


    How can OP feel they can argue what MMO stands for when they make a statement like "MMO features"... .there are no "MMO features" as the only FEATURE MMO stands for is the fact its a massive amount of people playing together online. OP is probably trying to apply the standardized features of an MMORPG to the rules. OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.
    MMORPG have always been multiplayer, online server based, persistent world, character advancement.  A MMO lite has all of this.  It just doesn't have a lot of players.  It is small scale but plays like a MMO.

    Massively Multiplayer is a vague term that requires outside defining to define.  It is like saying something is massively orange. One person says it has to be 75% orange, another say 51% orange and another dark orange.  What counts as dark orange?

    You must go back to the original person who created to term to get clarification.  Oh it means 500 people in a multiplayer. This game has 499 on a server and plays exactly the same is not.  Yet this game is a matched based 500 player MOBA that plays nothing like traditional MMO is?  
    KyleranElquinklash2def
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