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  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    Erillion said:

    --> No one outside the CIG management and finance department knows. But you can make an educated guess. 10.000 dollar per month per developer is an old industry "rule of thumb". Times the number of developers at certain stages in the development (starting with under 10 in 2012 to around 500 in 2018). Plus a few million for mocap filming. Minus a few million for tax breaks in the UK and Germany. 


    Careful now, people will be around yelling 90 days tops if you say things like this... :)

    A number mashup for how much they have spent based on the $10k per month rule.
    • 2012 10
    • 2013: 48
    • 2014: 161
    • 2015: 258
    • 2016: 363
    • 2017: 457
    • 2018: 500
    Total number of employees for the above period is 1797 multiplied by $120k equals $215.6 million, minus $30 million because we're only halfway through 2018 equals $185.6 million

    Caveat: This is in no way a definitive figure.

    There are many, many variables that could make it more, or less. No-one bar CIG knows the true costs but as Erillion said, it is an informed guess based on the industry's rule of thumb and reasonably well supported by Foundry 42's financials.
    I disagree if we would only go by what Roberts has stated through the years, add up statements on how he went for outside funding, more major jpg sales and of course the 27k sale which too any financial accountant would say the majority of the crowdfunding cash is just about depleted. Then you look at how many major developers have departed company replaced with fresh developers just graduating, then we can also say Roberts has clearly been making payroll manageable to keep the dream running.  

    I still haven't heard if they paid that Government UK loan yet? If they didn't then we can safely say they don't own the game any longer. That would be an interesting development.  Just saying.
    MaxBacon
    “The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
    George Carlin
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    edited July 2018
    I calculate189,74 million so we get about the same figure for the "rule of thumb".

    @rpmcmurphy As you said ... there are many many variables.

    According to some Glassdoor reviews i was reading (the one that do not look obviously faked) CIG seems to be paying a bit less then the average industry standard in the US. The salaries in UK and Germany also seem to be less than their equivalent in the US. CIG also got several million in tax breaks in the UK (and something equivalent in Germany - reduced tax rates for newly created companies). CIG also gets voluntary subscription income from the community subscribers, which pays for some of the employee salaries (Jump Point magazine editor, camera men, writers etc.). They also get some profit out of currency conversion between Europe and US.

    So ... my personal estimate is that they have about half a year buffer.


    Have fun


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited July 2018
    ScotchUp said:
    any financial accountant would say the majority of the crowdfunding cash is just about depleted. Then you look at how many major developers have departed company replaced with fresh developers just graduating
    lol



    CIG just days ago advertising 18 new art-related positions on the frontpage of ArtStation, not asking for Junior positions, several are directly Senior, (so no not fresh developers straight from graduating lol), their position requirements ask for previous experience with AAA games.

    Then also telling are the permanent positions where CIG also supports the relocation of the hires, so rather safe to say reality is not as you tell, otherwise they would be hiring for Junior positions without requiring AAA experience or be willing to undertake extra costs (such as assisting with relocation).

    full list

    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    MaxBacon said:




    CIG just days ago advertising 18 new art-related positions on the frontpage of ArtStation, several of those are Senior positions (so no not fresh developers straight from graduating lol), so yeah... 
    Sorry, just because they post something on site doesn't mean they are getting senior developers to fill those spots. The more important question would be after this many years why do they need to fill these jobs that were already filled by major senior developers? Plus why did these developers leave? It could be senior developers don't want the jobs, which is why so many have left in past. The question I would love to ask developers that left, is the jobs with CIG giving you a bad reputation? Granted we would never get an honest answer for the obvious reasons. 

    What I fail to understand is why do you guys need to respond to any and every negative post? It seems like you need to cover up the way game is run. That is doing more damage to CIG than any negative post does. 
    “The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
    George Carlin
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited July 2018
    ScotchUp said:
    Sorry, just because they post something on site doesn't mean they are getting senior developers to fill those spots. The more important question would be after this many years why do they need to fill these jobs that were already filled by major senior developers? Plus why did these developers leave? It could be senior developers don't want the jobs, which is why so many have left in past. The question I would love to ask developers that left, is the jobs with CIG giving you a bad reputation? Granted we would never get an honest answer for the obvious reasons. 

    What I fail to understand is why do you guys need to respond to any and every negative post? It seems like you need to cover up the way game is run. That is doing more damage to CIG than any negative post does. 
    Oh you're the one who make the statements, that they are firing experienced devs and replace them with people straight out of graduation, I'm just calling out the BS with one example of the positions they are presently hiring for and what their requirements are.


    I decided to respond you because are just talking out of your ass, you keep talking major senior developers, care to make a list who those who left in recent times and their qualifications and the new hires of recent times being inexperienced junior talent?

    You can't, as you're just speculating with the usual bias, my reply had more content on it that shows one example of their latest posting of positions available they have on those departments, where they are not asking for Junior talent and require AAA experience.

    As for your question of why they need to fill positions now, only means they keep expanding their development team, they are not replacing talent because the company totals keep growing, if it was all about desperately containing costs by replacing current devs as you imply the company totals wouldn't keep growing, they would maintain instead, that's how a company cheapens costs and that is not what CIG is doing from what is visible.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    ScotchUp said:
    MaxBacon said:




    CIG just days ago advertising 18 new art-related positions on the frontpage of ArtStation, several of those are Senior positions (so no not fresh developers straight from graduating lol), so yeah... 
    Sorry, just because they post something on site doesn't mean they are getting senior developers to fill those spots. The more important question would be after this many years why do they need to fill these jobs that were already filled by major senior developers? Plus why did these developers leave? It could be senior developers don't want the jobs, which is why so many have left in past. The question I would love to ask developers that left, is the jobs with CIG giving you a bad reputation? Granted we would never get an honest answer for the obvious reasons. 

    What I fail to understand is why do you guys need to respond to any and every negative post? It seems like you need to cover up the way game is run. That is doing more damage to CIG than any negative post does. 
    It's called "being a fan" ;-) 

    And if  "damage" means "world record in crowdfunding", tenthousands of fan videos and "2+ million Star Citizens", then I may venture a guess that more game companies would like to have this kind of "damage". 


    Have fun
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    One more thought about developers - junior and senior - leaving or being hired. Some people may not believe it, but that is NORMAL ! A company of 500 people ALWAYS has personnel coming and going. 


    Have fun
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    MaxBacon said:
    ScotchUp said:
    Sorry, just because they post something on site doesn't mean they are getting senior developers to fill those spots. The more important question would be after this many years why do they need to fill these jobs that were already filled by major senior developers? Plus why did these developers leave? It could be senior developers don't want the jobs, which is why so many have left in past. The question I would love to ask developers that left, is the jobs with CIG giving you a bad reputation? Granted we would never get an honest answer for the obvious reasons. 

    What I fail to understand is why do you guys need to respond to any and every negative post? It seems like you need to cover up the way game is run. That is doing more damage to CIG than any negative post does. 
    Oh you're the one who make the statements, that they are firing experienced devs and replace them with people straight out of graduation, I'm just calling out the BS with one example of the positions they are presently hiring for and what their requirements are.


    I decided to respond you because are just talking out of your ass, you keep talking major senior developers, care to make a list who those who left in recent times and their qualifications and the new hires of recent times being inexperienced junior talent?

    You can't, as you're just speculating with the usual bias, my reply had more content on it that shows one example of their latest posting of positions available they have on those departments, where they are not asking for Junior talent and require AAA experience.

    As for your question of why they need to fill positions now, only means they keep expanding their development team, they are not replacing talent because the company totals keep growing, if it was all about desperately containing costs by replacing current devs as you imply the company totals wouldn't keep growing, they would maintain instead, that's how a company cheapens costs and that is not what CIG is doing from what is visible.
    WOW, where did I say they are firing developers? That goes right to my point how when you guys respond, you don't do it with fact but inuendoes.  Just can't have a real conversation with you guys. So I won't respond, other than other reasonable gamers posts.
    “The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
    George Carlin
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,203
    ScotchUp said:
    MaxBacon said:




    CIG just days ago advertising 18 new art-related positions on the frontpage of ArtStation, several of those are Senior positions (so no not fresh developers straight from graduating lol), so yeah... 

    What I fail to understand is why do you guys need to respond to any and every negative post? It seems like you need to cover up the way game is run. That is doing more damage to CIG than any negative post does. 
    I’ve said this repeatedly.  They think that bumping negative posts is good because all publicity is good.  I’ve explained that they should ask Seaworld how the Blackfish publicity worked out for them...  Honestly I think some are sock puppet Goon accounts (nobody specific) as it would be right up their alley. 
    ScotchUp

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    MaxBacon said:
    Thanks, I will. At least my bubble is based, as you say, in reality. What’s yours based on, unicorns and rainbows?
    It's based on a magical process called game development. ^^
    So it is unicorns and rainbows. Thanks for validating. 

    Carry on, single-horned one. 
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • JippiijooJippiijoo Member UncommonPosts: 100
    Would be awesome if this game actually got released, i really want first person combat mmorpg on sci-fi settings (after Face Of Mankind there hasn't been any good ones that i know of)

    I don't care about flying a spaceship or whatever, but the more content and possibilities there are the better, i just want FPS combat on mmorpg so i can roam the planets and PvP, i can forgive alot if it has that.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    ScotchUp said:
    WOW, where did I say they are firing developers? That goes right to my point how when you guys respond, you don't do it with fact but inuendoes.  Just can't have a real conversation with you guys. So I won't respond, other than other reasonable gamers posts.
    Firing/Leaves leads to the same thing of what you said replacing senior talent with "fresh out of graduation devs", so you kinda went rather low there to not have to address all the argumentation posted... I explained my arguments decently well I'd say.

    So it is unicorns and rainbows. Thanks for validating. 

    Carry on, single-horned one. 
    Nope, game dev is far from unicorns and rainbows, quite the opposite really.
    postlarval
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    MaxBacon said:
    ScotchUp said:
    WOW, where did I say they are firing developers? That goes right to my point how when you guys respond, you don't do it with fact but inuendoes.  Just can't have a real conversation with you guys. So I won't respond, other than other reasonable gamers posts.
    Firing/Leaves leads to the same thing of what you said replacing senior talent with "fresh out of graduation devs", so you kinda went rather low there to not have to address all the argumentation posted... I explained my arguments decently well I'd say.

    So it is unicorns and rainbows. Thanks for validating. 

    Carry on, single-horned one. 
    Nope, game dev is far from unicorns and rainbows, quite the opposite really.
    Is that what those 500 developers tell you?
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Is that what those 500 developers tell you?
    No they tell me that 500 people are all part of this scam where they pretend to develop a videogame while management scams the money they pay their wagers with, like... the obvious conclusion ;)
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    MaxBacon said:
    Is that what those 500 developers tell you?
    No they tell me that 500 people are all part of this scam where they pretend to develop a videogame while management scams the money they pay their wagers with, like... the obvious conclusion ;)
    Well, glad to see your finally shedding some of that shining white armor and considering alternative explanations for CIG’s behavior.

    Mabye by 2022 you’ll figure it out. 
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 560
    At some point CIG will apply the magic patch that will turn their broken cryengine mod into the game Chris Roberts once promised, with thousands of players per instance, a real economy, newtonian physics, etc.
    Then all the doubters will feel remorse and will want to buy the game to join the fun. But no! CIG will refuse to sell them, and thus only the early backers will be rewarded with the online paradise, while the rest of the population will be condemned to dwell forever in envy!

    The moral of this is, pledge now, doubters, before it's too late. You can still be saved, but it won't be the case forever.
    PhaserlightKefo
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    At some point CIG will apply the magic patch that will turn their broken cryengine mod into the game Chris Roberts once promised, with thousands of players per instance, a real economy, newtonian physics, etc.
    Then all the doubters will feel remorse and will want to buy the game to join the fun. But no! CIG will refuse to sell them, and thus only the early backers will be rewarded with the online paradise, while the rest of the population will be condemned to dwell forever in envy!

    The moral of this is, pledge now, doubters, before it's too late. You can still be saved, but it won't be the case forever.
    No thanks. I have better things to do with my money than waste it on snake oil. 
    kikoodutroa8
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited July 2018
    MaxBacon said:
    Is that what those 500 developers tell you?
    No they tell me that 500 people are all part of this scam where they pretend to develop a videogame while management scams the money they pay their wagers with, like... the obvious conclusion ;)
    Well, glad to see your finally shedding some of that shining white armor and considering alternative explanations for CIG’s behavior.

    Mabye by 2022 you’ll figure it out. 
    hahahaha, you just reminded me of the "alternative facts", may the alternative facts lie within you.

    I'll continue playing SC up to the point it releases and you'll continue parroting around it's a scam, the way it was always meant to be. ;)
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    MaxBacon said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Is that what those 500 developers tell you?
    No they tell me that 500 people are all part of this scam where they pretend to develop a videogame while management scams the money they pay their wagers with, like... the obvious conclusion ;)
    Well, glad to see your finally shedding some of that shining white armor and considering alternative explanations for CIG’s behavior.

    Mabye by 2022 you’ll figure it out. 
    hahahaha, you just reminded me of the "alternative facts", may the alternative facts lie within you.

    I'll continue playing SC up to the point it releases and you'll continue parroting around it's a scam, the way it was always meant to be. ;)
    Sounds like a plan. Enjoy. 
    MaxBacon
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229






    Erillion said:






    I am also a backer. Every time I try to open the game, it's like I'm downloading a virus. Everything seizes up, error messages pop up and I end up doing a hard restart. The two or three times I successfully logged in, I couldn't access or do anything.





    I absolutely love the concept of this game, but I am beginning to have my doubts on whether it will ever become an actual game.




    I recommend to check out several of the online Star Citizen optimization guides (just search for it in Google or YouTube). Having 16 G RAM and an SSD 256 or greater helps a lot. Personally I recommend a modern AMD grafic card over an NVIDIA.  The behavior you describe is highly unusual. Maybe you want to go for a clean new install of the Alpha 3.2 build on the live servers ? Could it be that you have an old PTU "early test build" server version running? 
    The official forum also has a lot of tech help posts in the respective subforum. 


    Have fun








    I've removed and done a clean install three times now. I will look into the optimization, as you suggested.

    I have an i7 6400 3.40GHZ processor, 16GB RAM and an NVidia GTX1080 video card. I shouldn't have problems.


    The games not highly optimized yet and it seems only people who are 100% for the game says everything is fine so it must be your machine.  If you can play other high end games then the problem is probably not on your end.  Best thing is to wait for updates, try the game then, and if there's still problems, wait for the next big update.  I wouldn't go out and buy or build a new pc for any game that's still in alpha.



    What are you talking about? Even if they can run other high end games just fine on their machine but SC keeps crashing then clearly they are not devout enough. Might I suggest buying....sorry pledging a few thousand dollars to prove your faithfulness to this game to end all games and then it might run fine on your computer
    Erillion
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229

    MaxBacon said:


    Slapshot1188 said:
    You left out the part where the parent tells the kids its another 30 minutes and it's now 3 months later and they are still on the road. So at some point you do have to sympathize with the kids and think there is something wrong with the parents who must be lost and driving in circles.  
    Well, the "parents" here aren't lost or driving in circles, they are just driving slowly.



    sometimes in reverse. Or they've decided the car isn't good enough for them and they shake the kids up for loose change to buy a limo.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229

    rertez said:


    Erillion said:

    I always smile when the "scam" and "vaporware"
    argument comes up. I have been playing and  enjoying that "vaporware"
    for years now  ;-) And read and watched hundreds (thousands ?) of videos
    and articles about the development - lot of work for a scam  :-D 


    Have fun

    While I'm not questioning if SC is a scam or not, the
    project undoubtedly has a lot in common with big scams that happened
    throughout the history. Of course it doesn't mean it's a scam. I'm just
    saying that huge scams do require a lot of work, money, positive press
    involved and they can operate for years or even for decades till the truth
    unfolds.

    To name just a recent well known
    example the multi-billion dollar Silicon Valley startup Theranos was
    able to convince the press, the authorities, investors, experts, politicians and the
    public in general that they had a working technology that could
    revolutionize a whole industry however despite all their hard work and
    all the hype surrounding Elizabeth Holmes the whole thing
    ended up unfolding as an unbelievably huge scam.

    Also
    scammers usually start off by playing the haters, naysayers, jealous
    competitors cards to make their victims immune to warning signals and to make ALL negative criticism find deaf ears among their believers.

    I
    do think that Chris Roberts believes in this enormous project but I
    think that he's been making a lot of unnecessary and trivial
    communication errors that harmed the potential growth of SC's  supporting
    community and they mostly have to rely on existing backers to secure the costs of their operation.

    Last time I saw him in a Q&A he explained why he had no idea about SQ42's expected launch date and he tried to appear to be an outsider who understanded the emotional behavior of the game's developers who tried to avoid negative criticism caused by a potentially rushed launch. As if he wasn't aware of the state of the game at all he basically pushed all the responsibilities on SQ42's devs. Some might find this type of communication appealing but I'm sure many of us find his seemingly emotionally manipulative approach and his relation to his devs worrisome. After all he can't act like an outsider or a backer but a guy responsible for the outcome of this huge development. He does behave like a child sometimes and I can't even tell if he's serious or not anymore. Again I do think he believes in what he does. I just can't trust him and CIG.



    So what you're saying is he hasn't changed one iota from when he ran a different dev studio into the ground (if Microsoft hadn't bought it to save their investment) and is repeating the same mistakes but on a grander scale?
  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 560
    The stimpirical posting triples every second!
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