There is actually a lot of science behind size and slowness. There is a point beyond which there are diminishing returns. Yes training can make a bigbig differe but the relationship still exists. Yes there are some exceptions of people doing amazing things but the relationship still exists
In general (and I can't remember what the term is called and it doesn't work exactly like this but close) but for every square centimeter x of a muscle it can produce x2 force but weighs x3.
An ant can light 50 times it's weight. An elephant weighs on average 6000 and can lift 500 kg.
The bigger the muscle the more it weighs the more energy it takes to move. Eventually you reach a point where you can't move it anymore.
When you bring physics into a gaming conversation you've probably gone off into the weeds.
You are correct, past a certain point the human body can't generate enough power to move it's mass.
It's one big reason why birds can fly naturally and human's cant no matter how strong or fast.
Which then comes down to limitations on the amount of energy a chemical reaction can generate without consuming an organic body.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
gona try to give my take on everything because serious put not only 2 uses can have on for this skills
remember even inteligence can be used for games without magic, and I consider wisdom a valid stats because in and more explained fact its not the same
I will try to name all most used stats I can think
str is the basic or raw power you could have, a strong person don't need to be fast
dex with in some games its tied with agility, dex is more how well and coordenated you are so any martial use of a aim should be used on this, remember in some games dex is used for accuracy even on melee
constituition/endurance is our how well we can endure, some games match this with str to make things simple, so I find even though str and con are diferent you didn't mention this most people who amke a char with high str will want some the very least descent con to take the hits
int, yep this one the caster basic stat, in others games its also used for guns, in D&D some melee tactics are tied to it, int can be considered on how well and fast you can think and learn a good int stats would garantee more skills to be used or bigger spells pools, but here is the take make a hell of sense to tie spells on int because spells are neede to be understood to be used, a mage need to understand the element of it and how it can interact with the world
wisdom even though some would consider the same as int its not the same, even someone smal to undertand and learn things can be a sage, learned on the hard way, its also tied to your willpower with in some fashion is tied with clerics, clerics spells are tied with how much will they can keep even in worse situation so they can pull his god graces to make his miracles to happen, it can also be summed on how many things you did know or the very least memorized, you don't really need to understand something to memo it, and since most religious type can remember his holy book that don't mean eh can make sense of it
charisma is just for npc interaction and reaction, not much to say here, it can be explained as how well you dress and can carry yourself to be friendly make people like you, some make this as a stat to cast spells, call it natural pulling, you don't really need to consider how to cast that fireball, if all you need to raise your hand and yell fireball, all you need is look cool doing so I guess
agility most games tie dex on this, with I can't really but then together agility can be on how fast you can move your body, but moving fast don't mean to be precise, that is what dex would be for
perception, some games pull this over the dex mostly games who magic in non existant, some games links this not as a stat but as a skill
I think that is all, the very least the most used ones, now that is just a pretty and well way to explain on how to describe your avatar, we can't really do that way with a absolut number like in games, and remember most games also keep this stats static with we can in real life change based on how we train then or do things, raising or lowering (yeah that full of cheetos night gamming really helped on your dex but not so much with your str or con)
its all about what rules the game will use, some games require a main stat and some lower stat to wear gear, mage items int wis, bows dex and some str, sword str and some dex, big weapons only str and con, the stats is there to explain in a easy way how well you can do things and define your char/avatar
remember then in some games all of this is impossible to change and in some rare stance its there but it changes based on how you play, not in a direct way, like well 100 mobs using this club, so I will raise my int and become a mage
like I said before it all depend on how the rules will be used in the end, I do prefer the most used stats games to define a char, but you need to also take in consideration a certain point with don't make some stats useless, each stat explain how well you could move or how far and how much weight you carry and as fast
TL/DR, depend on the rule set used on the game more stats better description on your char/avatar, lower number of stats make things simple, with each explaining how well you can do things, we don't want you to be a killing machine with spells then hacking your way with weapons and thenn aiming that dagger in the little hole so you can drop that bridge all during you taking hit like you was wolverine
There is actually a lot of science behind size and slowness. There is a point beyond which there are diminishing returns. Yes training can make a bigbig differe but the relationship still exists. Yes there are some exceptions of people doing amazing things but the relationship still exists
In general (and I can't remember what the term is called and it doesn't work exactly like this but close) but for every square centimeter x of a muscle it can produce x2 force but weighs x3.
An ant can light 50 times it's weight. An elephant weighs on average 6000 and can lift 500 kg.
The bigger the muscle the more it weighs the more energy it takes to move. Eventually you reach a point where you can't move it anymore.
I think the relationship for muscle is that strength is directly proportional to surface area, while weight is directly proportional to volume.
That means if you want to have twice as powerful muscle, you need to have 2.8 times as much volume and weight. If you'd want 4 times as powerful muscle, you'd need to have 8 times as much volume and weight.
The weight of the muscle isn't in itself an issue, it's small enough compared to how much that muscle can lift, but to fit bigger and bigger muscles onto the creature you need to expand its whole body about proportionally to those muscles. At some point the creature will become too heavy to lift itself.
Strength vs dexterity usually acts as a general guideline and pretty much goes out the window after the politics of game balance are repeatedly addressed. How many times have players tested stats and found they weren't as documented.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Strength and Dexterity exist hand in hand, not oblivious to each other. No one has zero dexterity with some amount of strength, nor zero strength with some amount of dexterity.
Strength is the musculature while dexterity is the control of that musculature. You can't shoot a bow without either. You can't swing a sword without both. You can't walk without both.
Lifting weights requires both, as strength moves the weight and dexterity says where the weight is moved.
Intelligence and Wisdom are a little different, where I was taught in D&D that intelligence was the ability to learn and wisdom was how you applied that knowledge, or book learning vs. street knowledge.
Charisma was an all-encompassing popularity stat based beauty and charm. Someone could be gorgeous but be a prick or ugly with a heart of gold, thus a middling charisma score.
Constitution was just a general well being of a character, epitomized in Dragon Lance's Raistlin character. Some people are more prone to sicknesses than others.
Basically, these are just arbitrary stats that try to define a character in an RPG system, and nothing more. A fighter in D&D with a 20 strength and 4 dexterity certainly is a bulky character with very little coordination, while an archer with a 4 strength and 20 dexterity shouldn't even be able to draw their bow.
If you "over think it", it all falls apart
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Strength and Dexterity exist hand in hand, not oblivious to each other. No one has zero dexterity with some amount of strength, nor zero strength with some amount of dexterity.
Strength is the musculature while dexterity is the control of that musculature. You can't shoot a bow without either. You can't swing a sword without both. You can't walk without both.
Lifting weights requires both, as strength moves the weight and dexterity says where the weight is moved.
Intelligence and Wisdom are a little different, where I was taught in D&D that intelligence was the ability to learn and wisdom was how you applied that knowledge, or book learning vs. street knowledge.
Charisma was an all-encompassing popularity stat based beauty and charm. Someone could be gorgeous but be a prick or ugly with a heart of gold, thus a middling charisma score.
Constitution was just a general well being of a character, epitomized in Dragon Lance's Raistlin character. Some people are more prone to sicknesses than others.
Basically, these are just arbitrary stats that try to define a character in an RPG system, and nothing more. A fighter in D&D with a 20 strength and 4 dexterity certainly is a bulky character with very little coordination, while an archer with a 4 strength and 20 dexterity shouldn't even be able to draw their bow.
If you "over think it", it all falls apart
Like any system will, over thinking leads to more complexity and unwieldiness. This ties in with our discussion of what a MMORPG really is on this site, but I am not going there.
I think that, realistically, most developers got it wrong. The strength in your muscles is what makes you able to sprint faster, jump higher. When you use bows (usually linked to the dexterity attribute) you actually need a lot of strenght to pull the string.
...
Not the developers' fault here. It's been that way in fantasy movies, games, and books all the way back to CS Lewis in the 1950s, who resurrected it from Greko-Roman stories. It separates the characters' skills and makes a swordsman + archer team-up be a powerful combo.
I started thinking about this subject when I tried to imagine a system where a character physical attributes are fixed and decided during the creation (deciding the type of body) but I realized that it would be flawed: for the type of activities in most MMO, a "small and agile" type of human is not good enough. You could add a "slide" between an average slim guy and a "sumo-type" phisique that loses "agility" in exchange of force, but something like an heavy weight boxer would simply have too many advantages!
Strength = power of muscles Dexterity = skill of muscles
It seems pretty self-evident why they are separated in roleplaying games (as they are separated in real life). A body builder is not necessarily good at sports and a sports athlete is not necessarily as strong as a bodybuilder. They are exclusive attributes to physical prowess. Dexterity also speaks specifically to fine motor-skills and hand/wrist strength, which is why archers require dexterity, but not necessarily strength. I doubt an English longbowman could wield a sword and shield worth a damn.
I always saw this as a simple holdover from D&D. It worked there because a character's ability or success wasn't necessarily based on how high you pumped a stat. You'd need a rogue to pick locks or steal something. You'd need a STR based character to bend bars / lift gates. It was never a case of someone being "bad" at dexterous things, but rather another character being better at them. For example, I never rolled a warrior with less than 12 DEX. Keep in mind, 10 was considered average. Likewise, a rogue (or even a ranger) would need at least a little STR not to hit like a wet noodle, and everyone needed a little CON for saving throws and HP.
It actually translates very well into video games, or at least it used to. Over the years, though, we've come a long, long way from Baldur's Gate. Game systems have changed immensely, but the stat names have stayed. Don't focus too much on it, and understand that they work the way they do for the sake of balance. You could easily rename STR, DEX, and CON to Brawn, Focus, and Chutzpah to achieve the same effect. Kindof like how we still "hang the phone up" even though I haven't actually "hung" a phone up in years.
"Fine motor skill (or dexterity) is the coordination of small muscles, in movements—usually involving the synchronization of hands and fingers—with the eyes" From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill
So dex is used for the aiming part in archery. In the process of simplification of mmorpgs, agility was removed as a stat, this is why dex has taken over some of the properties of agility, making it slightly "wrong" from a purity standpoint. Scaling damage with dex only is not logical but it is a simple solution.
If you introduce more stats, things become more logical but also more complicated. Example. Str to determine ability to pull back the string of a bow. Endurance to determine how long you can hold aiming position, og how long you can keep firing with efficiency. Agi to determine rate of fire and ability to move while aiming/holding a bow. Dex for aim and "reloading". Focus (also a stat) as the ability to keep concentrating the mind while aiming or being hit or having to dodge while in the process of firing.
I always saw this as a simple holdover from D&D. It worked there because a character's ability or success wasn't necessarily based on how high you pumped a stat. You'd need a rogue to pick locks or steal something. You'd need a STR based character to bend bars / lift gates. It was never a case of someone being "bad" at dexterous things, but rather another character being better at them. For example, I never rolled a warrior with less than 12 DEX. Keep in mind, 10 was considered average. Likewise, a rogue (or even a ranger) would need at least a little STR not to hit like a wet noodle, and everyone needed a little CON for saving throws and HP.
It actually translates very well into video games, or at least it used to. Over the years, though, we've come a long, long way from Baldur's Gate. Game systems have changed immensely, but the stat names have stayed. Don't focus too much on it, and understand that they work the way they do for the sake of balance. You could easily rename STR, DEX, and CON to Brawn, Focus, and Chutzpah to achieve the same effect. Kindof like how we still "hang the phone up" even though I haven't actually "hung" a phone up in years.
Exactly, this whole issue has the same sort of origin as "a pair of trousers", that is one item which we always refer to as "a pair" because men used to put on two stocking like "legs" before proper trousers came in.
Don't let what "Dexterity" is concern you, work out what you want your attribute system to do, then find words to fit the system.
I see the D&D principles, but in a regular game where you fight most of the time I can only see a prime heavy weight fighter as the single type of phisique (and therefore, attributes) somebody could aim to achieve, the rest is what you want to focus on.
Comments
Aloha Mr Hand !
You are correct, past a certain point the human body can't generate enough power to move it's mass.
It's one big reason why birds can fly naturally and human's cant no matter how strong or fast.
Which then comes down to limitations on the amount of energy a chemical reaction can generate without consuming an organic body.
Too much for a Friday afternoon, game on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
remember even inteligence can be used for games without magic, and I consider wisdom a valid stats because in and more explained fact its not the same
I will try to name all most used stats I can think
str is the basic or raw power you could have, a strong person don't need to be fast
dex with in some games its tied with agility, dex is more how well and coordenated you are so any martial use of a aim should be used on this, remember in some games dex is used for accuracy even on melee
constituition/endurance is our how well we can endure, some games match this with str to make things simple, so I find even though str and con are diferent you didn't mention this most people who amke a char with high str will want some the very least descent con to take the hits
int, yep this one the caster basic stat, in others games its also used for guns, in D&D some melee tactics are tied to it, int can be considered on how well and fast you can think and learn a good int stats would garantee more skills to be used or bigger spells pools, but here is the take make a hell of sense to tie spells on int because spells are neede to be understood to be used, a mage need to understand the element of it and how it can interact with the world
wisdom even though some would consider the same as int its not the same, even someone smal to undertand and learn things can be a sage, learned on the hard way, its also tied to your willpower with in some fashion is tied with clerics, clerics spells are tied with how much will they can keep even in worse situation so they can pull his god graces to make his miracles to happen, it can also be summed on how many things you did know or the very least memorized, you don't really need to understand something to memo it, and since most religious type can remember his holy book that don't mean eh can make sense of it
charisma is just for npc interaction and reaction, not much to say here, it can be explained as how well you dress and can carry yourself to be friendly make people like you, some make this as a stat to cast spells, call it natural pulling, you don't really need to consider how to cast that fireball, if all you need to raise your hand and yell fireball, all you need is look cool doing so I guess
agility most games tie dex on this, with I can't really but then together agility can be on how fast you can move your body, but moving fast don't mean to be precise, that is what dex would be for
perception, some games pull this over the dex mostly games who magic in non existant, some games links this not as a stat but as a skill
I think that is all, the very least the most used ones, now that is just a pretty and well way to explain on how to describe your avatar, we can't really do that way with a absolut number like in games, and remember most games also keep this stats static with we can in real life change based on how we train then or do things, raising or lowering (yeah that full of cheetos night gamming really helped on your dex but not so much with your str or con)
its all about what rules the game will use, some games require a main stat and some lower stat to wear gear, mage items int wis, bows dex and some str, sword str and some dex, big weapons only str and con, the stats is there to explain in a easy way how well you can do things and define your char/avatar
remember then in some games all of this is impossible to change and in some rare stance its there but it changes based on how you play, not in a direct way, like well 100 mobs using this club, so I will raise my int and become a mage
like I said before it all depend on how the rules will be used in the end, I do prefer the most used stats games to define a char, but you need to also take in consideration a certain point with don't make some stats useless, each stat explain how well you could move or how far and how much weight you carry and as fast
TL/DR, depend on the rule set used on the game more stats better description on your char/avatar, lower number of stats make things simple, with each explaining how well you can do things, we don't want you to be a killing machine with spells then hacking your way with weapons and thenn aiming that dagger in the little hole so you can drop that bridge all during you taking hit like you was wolverine
That means if you want to have twice as powerful muscle, you need to have 2.8 times as much volume and weight. If you'd want 4 times as powerful muscle, you'd need to have 8 times as much volume and weight.
The weight of the muscle isn't in itself an issue, it's small enough compared to how much that muscle can lift, but to fit bigger and bigger muscles onto the creature you need to expand its whole body about proportionally to those muscles. At some point the creature will become too heavy to lift itself.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Strength is the musculature while dexterity is the control of that musculature. You can't shoot a bow without either. You can't swing a sword without both. You can't walk without both.
Lifting weights requires both, as strength moves the weight and dexterity says where the weight is moved.
Intelligence and Wisdom are a little different, where I was taught in D&D that intelligence was the ability to learn and wisdom was how you applied that knowledge, or book learning vs. street knowledge.
Charisma was an all-encompassing popularity stat based beauty and charm. Someone could be gorgeous but be a prick or ugly with a heart of gold, thus a middling charisma score.
Constitution was just a general well being of a character, epitomized in Dragon Lance's Raistlin character. Some people are more prone to sicknesses than others.
Basically, these are just arbitrary stats that try to define a character in an RPG system, and nothing more. A fighter in D&D with a 20 strength and 4 dexterity certainly is a bulky character with very little coordination, while an archer with a 4 strength and 20 dexterity shouldn't even be able to draw their bow.
If you "over think it", it all falls apart
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not the developers' fault here. It's been that way in fantasy movies, games, and books all the way back to CS Lewis in the 1950s, who resurrected it from Greko-Roman stories. It separates the characters' skills and makes a swordsman + archer team-up be a powerful combo.
Dexterity = skill of muscles
It seems pretty self-evident why they are separated in roleplaying games (as they are separated in real life). A body builder is not necessarily good at sports and a sports athlete is not necessarily as strong as a bodybuilder. They are exclusive attributes to physical prowess. Dexterity also speaks specifically to fine motor-skills and hand/wrist strength, which is why archers require dexterity, but not necessarily strength. I doubt an English longbowman could wield a sword and shield worth a damn.
"Fine motor skill (or dexterity) is the coordination of small muscles, in movements—usually involving the synchronization of hands and fingers—with the eyes"
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill
So dex is used for the aiming part in archery.
In the process of simplification of mmorpgs, agility was removed as a stat, this is why dex has taken over some of the properties of agility, making it slightly "wrong" from a purity standpoint.
Scaling damage with dex only is not logical but it is a simple solution.
If you introduce more stats, things become more logical but also more complicated.
Example.
Str to determine ability to pull back the string of a bow.
Endurance to determine how long you can hold aiming position, og how long you can keep firing with efficiency.
Agi to determine rate of fire and ability to move while aiming/holding a bow.
Dex for aim and "reloading".
Focus (also a stat) as the ability to keep concentrating the mind while aiming or being hit or having to dodge while in the process of firing.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Don't let what "Dexterity" is concern you, work out what you want your attribute system to do, then find words to fit the system.