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Level Progression - Is Zone/Character Scaling the Future?

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    edited July 2018
    DMKano said:
    I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.

    Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.

    No thanks.

    If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.

    If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.

    Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.


    Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it. 

    it sucks.
    Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system.  As ESO regularly adds content.  

    Yes scaling is a stop gap measure.  Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level.  You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal.  Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler.  It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.    



  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,335
    DMKano said:
    I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.

    Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.

    No thanks.

    If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.

    If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.

    Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.


    Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it. 

    it sucks.
    Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system.  As ESO regularly adds content.  

    Yes scaling is a stop gap measure.  Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level.  You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal.  Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler.  It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.    



       I cant stand scaling for alot of reasons and have gone over this before in several threads ....

      What i want to add here is imo FF11 and FF14 have handled this best in not trivializing the content  keeping old zones fresh and active with there job system , Far superior than the weak answer of scaling to this problem ..

       IMO Scaling triavializes all content in its own way and yes i have a CP 323 in ESO but .. Have not enjoyed the game nearly as much since T1 ... Every Fight feels the same there is no overland challenge at all Period for 93% of the overland combat is faceroll easy repetitive combat , Yes from lvl 1 to CP 323..

     Its the same feel over an over  , most mobs feel the same , different pixels , Very difficult to find any challenge Dolmens soloble , Many dungeons soloble , The only worthwhile content are Vet runs and Trials .. There are a few Overland Group areas that can be challenging and fun , but to few and far between ..

      An empty feeling is left after most sessions IMO as no REAL accomplisment or progression very quickly creeps into the game ...

     The Lore which i always enjoyed in ES games back to Arena and Daggerfall (still have my discs and 500 page manual) Is completly broken and borked since T1 , why as AD would i ever want to run errands for the EP King , and why would he want to reward me for it now ,I should be Killing him if given the chance not putting out his peasant fires.. Complete worthless shit now ..
    Vermillion_Raventhalkjempff
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.

    Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.

    No thanks.

    If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.

    If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.

    Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.


    Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it. 

    it sucks.
    Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system.  As ESO regularly adds content.  

    Yes scaling is a stop gap measure.  Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level.  You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal.  Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler.  It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.    



       I cant stand scaling for alot of reasons and have gone over this before in several threads ....

      What i want to add here is imo FF11 and FF14 have handled this best in not trivializing the content  keeping old zones fresh and active with there job system , Far superior than the weak answer of scaling to this problem ..

       IMO Scaling triavializes all content in its own way and yes i have a CP 323 in ESO but .. Have not enjoyed the game nearly as much since T1 ... Every Fight feels the same there is no overland challenge at all Period for 93% of the overland combat is faceroll easy repetitive combat , Yes from lvl 1 to CP 323..

     Its the same feel over an over  , most mobs feel the same , different pixels , Very difficult to find any challenge Dolmens soloble , Many dungeons soloble , The only worthwhile content are Vet runs and Trials .. There are a few Overland Group areas that can be challenging and fun , but to few and far between ..

      An empty feeling is left after most sessions IMO as no REAL accomplisment or progression very quickly creeps into the game ...

     The Lore which i always enjoyed in ES games back to Arena and Daggerfall (still have my discs and 500 page manual) Is completly broken and borked since T1 , why as AD would i ever want to run errands for the EP King , and why would he want to reward me for it now ,I should be Killing him if given the chance not putting out his peasant fires.. Complete worthless shit now ..
    Vertical progression has weakness like any system.  You make a content worthwhile and slow it becomes a grind.  You make it easy and all content becomes trivial fast with an end game horizontal progression that's .  

    That is why I have always advocated horizontal or shallow vertical progression with NPC difficulty.  Difficulty in scripting and/or power.  It provides difficulty and allows all to participate.  Not everyone in a journey has to be an elite person.  Non physical players still have to respect getting wacked even by moderate melee and vice versa.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    The only problem I've found with scaling is that it's become a little harder to follow the main story lines for each faction.  Skipping a main city will put you in the middle of some quests.  Game breaking?  It depends on your playstyle.  As a wanderer I would run into partial quests all the time but having a lot of alts I've gone through the story a few times already.  It might be confusing for new players. 

    Overall I like it, as I have more freedom to do the quests chains I like the most in the areas I like the most.  I enjoy it in ESO and GW2. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499
    Though it sadly might be the future, imo it is one of the laziest and worst features of current MMO's, and makes the whole experience bland and boring.  GW2's method is the only somewhat tolerable method, I flat out will not play a game that does it like ESO etc.  That game was boring as F before they added the scaling, and now it is beyond insipidly boring.  Done one zone done them all.
    ScorchienkjempffAlBQuirky
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 452
    I still say that the smartest "lateral leveling" scheme was done by Everquest 1. Sure, you made it to top level. Now grind out 1500 alternate advancement points, gotten in any order (almost) that doesn't necessarily make you so OP that you feel invincible, but does make you feel more powerful. Back then, mana was crazy to keep up. AAs allowed some of the most important spells to be done via skill and no mana. It was great. It was no different than the actual spell, it just didn't use mana, so there was no real "power" gain, but it was massively helpful. I think someone needs to do that again. That alone kept me coming back often.
    AlBQuirkyEronakis
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    It is a bit depressing that only 37 people have voted. Of these 31 have voted for traditional no scaling (including me). There seems to be more diversity of views than this, based on the comments. Even so it is sad if 37 the total number of people interested in this topic.
    VengeSunsoarAlBQuirkyOctagon7711Eronakis
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    It is a bit depressing that only 37 people have voted. Of these 31 have voted for traditional no scaling (including me). There seems to be more diversity of views than this, based on the comments. Even so it is sad if 37 the total number of people interested in this topic.
    I think horizontal progression is better.   But if you're going to do the monolith of the genre then just do that.  
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aeander said:
    Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
    Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
    Still true in ESO with level scaling.
    How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works. 

    Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,551
    There are a couple of games off the top of my head that had level scaling that worked in a way that didn't hinder progression through zones. FFXI had a system where zones have levels, and the game is focused around grouping, but you could scale the party to one character in the parties level so that you could do content around that level and still get EXP, be it higher or lower than your current level. 

    FFXIV does this as well but in dungeons, so you scale to the level of dungeon and it gets higher levels to do the lower level content still and still be able to get rewards for doing that content, which makes finding groups a hell of a lot faster than in games where this doesn't occur. 

    GW2, you scale down to the zones level which is like a hybrid of both types (scaling and having stagnant levels for the zones). I like how it's done here, but it does still feel like you are pretty overpowered when you are a way higher level than the zone. 

    I don't like the idea of an entire game scaling to your level (ESO) because it really doesn't feel like you are progressing at all. You run from zone to zone doing whatever you want, but all fights still feel the same, just with additional skills or slightly different weapon / armor variations. It also removes the sense of story progression because you can basically just go do anything in any order. 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    ESO is has the 1 to 50 leveling and champion points leveling that carry over to your alts.  Before level scaling if you mini-maxed you could roll through most content anyway.  I leveled without crafting just using gear from drops which made it a bit more of a challenge with the four classes.  That Silver and Gold quest was just a cheap grind as all they did was stick larger number on to the health bars of those in other factions, that was boring.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,148
    Eronakis said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aeander said:
    Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
    Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
    Still true in ESO with level scaling.
    How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works. 

    Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
    Very simple:
    A level 50 character with 160+ champion points is WAY more powerful than a level 1 newbie. He has better gear, more skills, better stats.
    A level 1 with crap gear and only starter skills will most likely die against that "alpha wolf" boss while the level 50 will kill it quite easily and will have challenge with even harder mobs.
    You become more powerful, you just never become an invincible god.
    AlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    Eronakis said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aeander said:
    Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
    Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
    Still true in ESO with level scaling.
    How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works. 

    Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
    Very simple:
    A level 50 character with 160+ champion points is WAY more powerful than a level 1 newbie. He has better gear, more skills, better stats.
    A level 1 with crap gear and only starter skills will most likely die against that "alpha wolf" boss while the level 50 will kill it quite easily and will have challenge with even harder mobs.
    You become more powerful, you just never become an invincible god.
    Interesting. Seems like Champion Points is the segregation between players. How does one obtain Champion Points? So, could a level 25 character with 120 Champion Points group with a level 50 character with 160 champion Points? 
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,148
    Eronakis said:
    Eronakis said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aeander said:
    Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
    Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
    Still true in ESO with level scaling.
    How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works. 

    Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
    Very simple:
    A level 50 character with 160+ champion points is WAY more powerful than a level 1 newbie. He has better gear, more skills, better stats.
    A level 1 with crap gear and only starter skills will most likely die against that "alpha wolf" boss while the level 50 will kill it quite easily and will have challenge with even harder mobs.
    You become more powerful, you just never become an invincible god.
    Interesting. Seems like Champion Points is the segregation between players. How does one obtain Champion Points? So, could a level 25 character with 120 Champion Points group with a level 50 character with 160 champion Points? 
    Champion points are progression beyond level 50, but they are also a sort of "heirloom" since once you have one level 50 character which gains CPs, those a shared with all other characters on your account including new level 1 ones.
    And yes, there's no level or CP limits for grouping.
    Iselin
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,292
    Eronakis said:
    Eronakis said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Aeander said:
    Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
    Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
    Still true in ESO with level scaling.
    How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works. 

    Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
    Very simple:
    A level 50 character with 160+ champion points is WAY more powerful than a level 1 newbie. He has better gear, more skills, better stats.
    A level 1 with crap gear and only starter skills will most likely die against that "alpha wolf" boss while the level 50 will kill it quite easily and will have challenge with even harder mobs.
    You become more powerful, you just never become an invincible god.
    Interesting. Seems like Champion Points is the segregation between players. How does one obtain Champion Points? So, could a level 25 character with 120 Champion Points group with a level 50 character with 160 champion Points? 
    Champion points are progression beyond level 50, but they are also a sort of "heirloom" since once you have one level 50 character which gains CPs, those a shared with all other characters on your account including new level 1 ones.
    And yes, there's no level or CP limits for grouping.
    Also to answer an earlier question, NPCs do not have different levels. They are all set to Level 50, CP160. It is the players who are below that who get bolstered up to that and once they reach 50/CP160 there is no more bolstering.

    NPC enemies do have a range from weak to strong but that is done by giving different types of NPCs different strengths and weaknesses. In a sense it's like taking the common MMO system of having a level 40 normal, level 40 strong and level 40 elite but going far beyond that standard three types with maybe 20-30 different difficulties.

    ESO was able to transition to that scaling system relatively easily because even before level scaling the power advancement system was never really about levels. It was always about earning skill points through finding skyshards, quest rewards and yes, also leveling, and investing those skill points in skills and passives to improve your character. That system is still intact and is no different before or after level scaling.

    Other MMOs where the advancement is all about levels would need to make bigger, more jarring changes in order to switch to a scaling system but it was a very easy thing to do in ESO.


    Jean-Luc_PicardAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DeddmeatDeddmeat Member UncommonPosts: 387
    I see it as a dumb idea .. whichever dev thought of it should have his pee hole covered in honey and fire ants set to it.

    Knowing you had limits, there were area's you were definately dead meat was good, also made it fun when you then tried to sneak through those areas and one of the mobs saw you and you were like ohshitohitohshitohshitohshitohshitohshit .. and a long trail of brown left behind your character as they ran like hell

    Amazingly .. back then we didn't throw the controller/mouse/coffee/lager across the room in a fit of anger .. unlike some today who at missing a penalty in a football game embed the controller into their family tv lol

    It seems devs etc come up with great 'solutions' which supposedly will solve x,y,z problems, meanwhile creating a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,kl,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w problems lol
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,117
    edited July 2018
    The problem of this whole scaling thing is developers mindlessly (!?) add too much power in the game to the point make the power gap ridiculous .
    All in the name of "player want more powerrr" . So instead of create more interest reward items (that cost more money , time , brain paste), they add number . Pretty easy , lazy and genius

    I think it time to back to old design where player are same at start while the challenge become harder each stage like old games

    AlBQuirky
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