I prefer level scaling. Most of the titles that have it still give you some advantages for your real level being higher and your gear being above the zone's level. I was never a huge fan of being weak as a rodent at level 1, where a rat provides an epic battle... being a god at level 80 or whatever and obliterating entire hordes of level 50 dragons with a mere thought... until you run into a level 80 wolf or some other dumb animal.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Inability to play with your level 1 friend is almost a non issue blown our of proportion. The very few times I have heard someone say that their friend disn't want to join because they could not join a high level, it usually had other causes too. If I really wanted to introduce a friend to a game, it was never a problem for me, to make an alt to play with.. If this friend actually wanted to play after that "trial", they would make the effort to catch up.
Scaling is ruining the sense of immersion and making everything bland and pointless.. Progression IS what a mmoRPG evolve around, and scaling destroys progression. Same goes for so called horizontal progression, which is not really progression.
How does scaling ruin immersion anymore than me having to one shotting a demon... but taking 1 minute to kill a the local wolf that is in a higher level area. Most times the toughness(higher level of creatures) makes no sense. At least in scaling or horizontal you assign difficulty to creatures and NPCs that make sense.
That is a design problem that can be solved by makibg monster powers more logical. The problems with scaling (players and monsters) are numerous. Because character progression is the heart of a mmorpg (levels, skill system or however it is made), scaling character powers is extremely artificial and messing with this; scaling monsters is somewhat the same, though slightly more detached from character progression. Scaling messes with the consistancy of the game world and makes it very gamey..for some, this is extremely immersion breaking, others are not bothered much; it is fundamentally different approaches to playing a mmorpg that is the reason.
Scaling is a artificial solution that may solve one issue but introduces game breaking problems (for the type of players who value immersion, world consistancy, etc). While at the same time, the problem scaling is trying to solve is rated very low on my list, while the consequences are very high.
I prefer skill based rather than level based, a fantasy based version of Eve Online would be great, but the only 'near' examples do not have skill levels capped, which is a huge mistake. One of the worst problems with level based games that have PVP is that often the winner is determined entirely based on level difference, its why i think level based games are lazy and the entire process of levelling up is faux content and little more than a time sink. Scaling of any kind is just a hasty bandaid over a gaping wound imo and not a true solution or cure. I just wish that game developers would stop thinking in terms of levels and more about the game itself
Inability to play with your level 1 friend is almost a non issue blown our of proportion. The very few times I have heard someone say that their friend disn't want to join because they could not join a high level, it usually had other causes too. If I really wanted to introduce a friend to a game, it was never a problem for me, to make an alt to play with.. If this friend actually wanted to play after that "trial", they would make the effort to catch up.
Scaling is ruining the sense of immersion and making everything bland and pointless.. Progression IS what a mmoRPG evolve around, and scaling destroys progression. Same goes for so called horizontal progression, which is not really progression.
How does scaling ruin immersion anymore than me having to one shotting a demon... but taking 1 minute to kill a the local wolf that is in a higher level area. Most times the toughness(higher level of creatures) makes no sense. At least in scaling or horizontal you assign difficulty to creatures and NPCs that make sense.
That is a design problem that can be solved by makibg monster powers more logical. The problems with scaling (players and monsters) are numerous. Because character progression is the heart of a mmorpg (levels, skill system or however it is made), scaling character powers is extremely artificial and messing with this; scaling monsters is somewhat the same, though slightly more detached from character progression. Scaling messes with the consistancy of the game world and makes it very gamey..for some, this is extremely immersion breaking, others are not bothered much; it is fundamentally different approaches to playing a mmorpg that is the reason.
Scaling is a artificial solution that may solve one issue but introduces game breaking problems (for the type of players who value immersion, world consistancy, etc). While at the same time, the problem scaling is trying to solve is rated very low on my list, while the consequences are very high.
Scaling does not ruin immersion. It ruins your ability to one shot things.
No matter you put it vertical progression waste content which is a premium for this genre being made. Vertical progression makes little sense. If you truly believe your wizard can train his physical body to be stronger than a mid level warrior does it make sense. A warrior who trained half his life with magic sword can't physically harm your naked unbuffed wizard because levels.
Progression is also progression. You can gain new skills, abilities, powers, prestige, access and items to have progression. While your main characters stats stay basically the same. That's how real life works. Nowhere in the RPG bible does it mention that you must have to gain large stat and combat multiplers.
These games are not true RPG anyways. They are based on them but the main factor CAN and probably should be other players. You could have a MMORPG be about progression with money, prestige, cosmetics, property, legacy and items and not gain a single skill point or level of combat power. Your combat ability is based on class choice, player skill and items.
I actually think that the "new" thing will be the "old" thing. I think that MMOs will swing back towards the more difficult and dangerous. WoW was a juggernaut, but let's be real......it's easy. All but the top end of PvP and PvE is just so boring. Right now, with the overcharged weapons up until this Tuesday, I literally pull entire dungeons up to bosses and just AoE them all down on my bear tank.
But Pantheon seems to be gaining some steam, and part of that comes from the reputation grinds, and the devs claiming it will take almost half a year to level a toon and gear it, and the fact that community will be a front and center point.....along with the fact that dying comes with an actual penalty. Not just a handful of gold to repair. You can lose levels. Part of me thinks that alone is a BRILLIANT move by an MMO developer. Think of it.....if you lose xp every time you die (mostly mitigated by clerics in the group with 96% xp rezzes), how much does that slow the content locusts. WoW's Mythic raids get cleared so fast because those guilds just slam their heads into the wall until they break through finally. Now, imagine a game where about 30 tries into a boss, half the raid de-levels. Now, you have to stop the raid, go out, level up again and get some safety xp, and return again later. It's a natural gate that puts a roadblock in for those types of players who are going to tear through the content, not really by skill per say, but because they had the most time to sit and just try over and over.
The thirst really seems to be for tougher challenges, I think. That seems to be the feeling I am getting from the community I speak to, anyways. Scaling is just another gimmick, although another good idea as then you don't have a set path to level through, and i one zone is busy, you can just choose another.
I actually think that the "new" thing will be the "old" thing. I think that MMOs will swing back towards the more difficult and dangerous. WoW was a juggernaut, but let's be real......it's easy. All but the top end of PvP and PvE is just so boring. Right now, with the overcharged weapons up until this Tuesday, I literally pull entire dungeons up to bosses and just AoE them all down on my bear tank.
But Pantheon seems to be gaining some steam, and part of that comes from the reputation grinds, and the devs claiming it will take almost half a year to level a toon and gear it, and the fact that community will be a front and center point.....along with the fact that dying comes with an actual penalty. Not just a handful of gold to repair. You can lose levels. Part of me thinks that alone is a BRILLIANT move by an MMO developer. Think of it.....if you lose xp every time you die (mostly mitigated by clerics in the group with 96% xp rezzes), how much does that slow the content locusts. WoW's Mythic raids get cleared so fast because those guilds just slam their heads into the wall until they break through finally. Now, imagine a game where about 30 tries into a boss, half the raid de-levels. Now, you have to stop the raid, go out, level up again and get some safety xp, and return again later. It's a natural gate that puts a roadblock in for those types of players who are going to tear through the content, not really by skill per say, but because they had the most time to sit and just try over and over.
The thirst really seems to be for tougher challenges, I think. That seems to be the feeling I am getting from the community I speak to, anyways. Scaling is just another gimmick, although another good idea as then you don't have a set path to level through, and i one zone is busy, you can just choose another.
We will see. Players don't like logging in and feeling like they accomplished nothing even in 2 or 3 hours of gameplay.
Scaling is not a gimmick. It is horizontal(shallow vertical progression) progression. It is good for the genre because content is a premium. It preserves content. It's more plausible.
I always envisioned going to a rough tavern that is scary dangerous to a newbie. Even vet must watch his back there. In vertical progression the tavern would impossible for low level, just right for the right level and the outleveled even a naked wizard can take a backstab AFK levitating.
@Vermillion_Raventhal I think you are way too focused a narrow definition of what vertical progression is.. it is not only levels, in fact it could be completely without levels. I can totally understand that someone is tiered of that old level concept and want to try something new, I am all for that.. just when it comes to removing progression (defined by continuously gaining power), I am not a fan.
As for immersion.. level scaling is not immersion breaking for you, but that is because we play mmorpgs for completely different reasons and approach. There are two schools and you can't please both, but you can try to understand both views.
Inability to play with your level 1 friend is almost a non issue blown our of proportion. The very few times I have heard someone say that their friend disn't want to join because they could not join a high level, it usually had other causes too. If I really wanted to introduce a friend to a game, it was never a problem for me, to make an alt to play with.. If this friend actually wanted to play after that "trial", they would make the effort to catch up.
Scaling is ruining the sense of immersion and making everything bland and pointless.. Progression IS what a mmoRPG evolve around, and scaling destroys progression. Same goes for so called horizontal progression, which is not really progression.
How does scaling ruin immersion anymore than me having to one shotting a demon... but taking 1 minute to kill a the local wolf that is in a higher level area. Most times the toughness(higher level of creatures) makes no sense. At least in scaling or horizontal you assign difficulty to creatures and NPCs that make sense.
That is a design problem that can be solved by makibg monster powers more logical. The problems with scaling (players and monsters) are numerous. Because character progression is the heart of a mmorpg (levels, skill system or however it is made), scaling character powers is extremely artificial and messing with this; scaling monsters is somewhat the same, though slightly more detached from character progression. Scaling messes with the consistancy of the game world and makes it very gamey..for some, this is extremely immersion breaking, others are not bothered much; it is fundamentally different approaches to playing a mmorpg that is the reason.
Scaling is a artificial solution that may solve one issue but introduces game breaking problems (for the type of players who value immersion, world consistancy, etc). While at the same time, the problem scaling is trying to solve is rated very low on my list, while the consequences are very high.
Scaling does not ruin immersion. It ruins your ability to one shot things.
No matter you put it vertical progression waste content which is a premium for this genre being made. Vertical progression makes little sense. If you truly believe your wizard can train his physical body to be stronger than a mid level warrior does it make sense. A warrior who trained half his life with magic sword can't physically harm your naked unbuffed wizard because levels.
You're absolutely right, but level scaling is not the solution. It's those levels and the way they are designed that are to blame.
You're on the right track with the wizard-warrior example, but lets expand it a bit more. Lets say your character is a human, and you're going to fight trolls and later even dragons. Those creatures' physical abilities are way beyond those of a human. If you measure their strength by only a level and then scale it to the human player character, that would mean your character was on an equal ground with the monsters.
You could of course scale them using relative power difference, but wouldn't that mean your character doesn't have levels at all and all mobs had a level that indicates their relative power compared to a player character?
My point is, if you see level scaling as a solution to any problem, the problem always is that the levels exists in the first place. You can design levels without immersion breaking power gaps and have vertical progression, but not like in most traditional RGPs. That all has to be rethought and built from the ground up again. Current method is a copy of a copy of a copy from ancient RPG games from 70's.
I think they need a combination of scaling and phasing. I like the fact that in WoW you can play in a level 20 zone as a level 50 and the rewards/mobs are scaled to your level. Back in vanilla you often moved to other zones because you out leveled some zones. There were plenty of zones that some players never even step foot in on their way to max level. I like that concept although Blizzard's implementation could use some more polish.
Phasing is another thing Blizzard does to place players into content that they would otherwise not have access to unless they have completed some pre-quests/requirements first. I think if it were used to preserve each expansion as it was, the game as a whole would remain more interesting. Meaning that as a new player, you are phased to say classic WoW. That means the talent trees et al as they were. When you complete the right of passage (appropriate level and pre-quests done) you can venture to the next expansion and be phased to it. Again, talent trees et al are preserved. If you choose to venture out of the phasing, you are returned to the world but a scaled world based on the talents trees et al of the highest expansion you have been attuned to. I say attuned because you may have started an expansion but not yet completed it.
This means your character changes a lot more as you experience more of the game. This of course would never work for PVP as changes to talents means imbalance across the worlds. This also makes a much more complicated game to maintain as changes to talent trees makes NPCs stupid unless they are coded to deal with abilities that come later in game as well as those pruned away.
Players are looking for a never ending story. Most MMOs are snippets that end. Hence 'end game'. They aren't designed in a way that continues the journey, they alter the journey. In that I mean, in order to make the new content make sense, they break the old content. Hence the mess that is WoW today. Coming on 8 expansions of different stories that really could be independent games based on how they treat previous content. That is the issue longevity has had on MMOs... fear not, the movie industry has the same problem... trying to go back in time in say Star Trek but being unable to do so without making all the previous content seem outdated. Yes, this happened before the Trek you knew but they have abilities that far exceed anything that was done in the future because no one wants to see cheap parlor tricks in 2018.
Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
Let me put it this way. If a squire stabs a knight in the back, that knight is going to die. His experience will not make him immune to damage. It will just make him better able to prevent that damage
Yes, I agree. In that way, I see your point about being stabbed in the back.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Scaling is a artificial solution that may solve one issue but introduces game breaking problems (for the type of players who value immersion, world consistancy, etc).
It's interesting that some of you still use the immersion breaking and world consistency arguments when it has been demonstrated by several posters that in reality, it's the opposite and scaling with difficulty relying on monster type and not on levels strongly improves immersion and consistency.
Oh c'mon, @Jean-Luc_Picard, the examples given have been quite extreme. One-shotting a raid? Killing a horde of level 50 dragons because you're level 80? Has either of these things ever happened in an MMO? I have not encountered anything like this, but I have not been playing MMOs much recently.
Those examples would also break my immersion, but do they actually ever happen?
I'm not one for "zone levels", because I agree that "nature" doesn't work that way. But if I at first struggle in one zone at a specific level, why do I still struggle after progressing my character should I return to that same zone later on? Within the games own context, my immersion breaks with scaling.
How does one "wrap their head" around the sudden loss of abilities and skills simply by crossing a zone line? How does that immerse people? What's the rationale?
PS: I expect more ESO praise, but I don't play ESO for quite a few other reasons
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
@Vermillion_Raventhal I think you are way too focused a narrow definition of what vertical progression is.. it is not only levels, in fact it could be completely without levels. I can totally understand that someone is tiered of that old level concept and want to try something new, I am all for that.. just when it comes to removing progression (defined by continuously gaining power), I am not a fan.
As for immersion.. level scaling is not immersion breaking for you, but that is because we play mmorpgs for completely different reasons and approach. There are two schools and you can't please both, but you can try to understand both views.
I am not focus narrowly at all. All vertical progression games lead to power gaps or it's not vertical progression. Besides most games are already horizontal except that you throw away 90% of content in a few days/weeks and horizontally progress end game. Or you have level scaling which is just roundabout. The genre is trending horizontal.
As for true horizontal progression or really shallow vertical progression you can still gain power. You can still progress. It's just not huge stat multipliers or artificial barriers. Meaning a starting wizard may have 1 spell of each element while a vet has 10 of each. The vet will be more powerful and progress but still not inhuman with 50x stat multipliers and artificial power plateaus. I like that a newbie could contribute in a dungeon but has to be careful.
I think you have a very narrow idea of horizontal progression. Designs can make horizontal progression be as fast or slow as they want. Horizontal progression could take longer than the typical MMORPG out today that doesn't even take that long.
I think the entire idea of different level "zones" is at root a bad one. It makes the game too liner. Devalues old zones and cordons off entire areas of the world to most charters. Look at wow. They've got a HUGE world, but players only ever interact with a tiny part of it because there's simply nothing to do outside of what ever zone's they've tacked on in the new expansion.
The best solution would be to add high level areas, wandering mobs, resources, and quests to all zones. That way your not wasting such huge chucks of the game world.
I know companies have been working on procedural content generation for a while but at some point someone will get it right and we wont have to worry about this crap anymore. Eventually the game will just spawn quests, monsters, and content based on the levels of the characters in a particular zone. Might not be in my lifetime but I can always dream.
I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.
Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.
No thanks.
If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.
If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.
Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.
Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it.
it sucks.
Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system. As ESO regularly adds content.
Yes scaling is a stop gap measure. Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level. You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal. Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler. It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.
I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.
Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.
No thanks.
If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.
If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.
Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.
Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it.
it sucks.
Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system. As ESO regularly adds content.
Yes scaling is a stop gap measure. Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level. You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal. Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler. It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.
I cant stand scaling for alot of reasons and have gone over this before in several threads ....
What i want to add here is imo FF11 and FF14 have handled this best in not trivializing the content keeping old zones fresh and active with there job system , Far superior than the weak answer of scaling to this problem ..
IMO Scaling triavializes all content in its own way and yes i have a CP 323 in ESO but .. Have not enjoyed the game nearly as much since T1 ... Every Fight feels the same there is no overland challenge at all Period for 93% of the overland combat is faceroll easy repetitive combat , Yes from lvl 1 to CP 323..
Its the same feel over an over , most mobs feel the same , different pixels , Very difficult to find any challenge Dolmens soloble , Many dungeons soloble , The only worthwhile content are Vet runs and Trials .. There are a few Overland Group areas that can be challenging and fun , but to few and far between ..
An empty feeling is left after most sessions IMO as no REAL accomplisment or progression very quickly creeps into the game ...
The Lore which i always enjoyed in ES games back to Arena and Daggerfall (still have my discs and 500 page manual) Is completly broken and borked since T1 , why as AD would i ever want to run errands for the EP King , and why would he want to reward me for it now ,I should be Killing him if given the chance not putting out his peasant fires.. Complete worthless shit now ..
I hate scaling of any sort because its lazy design.
Yeah lets scale shit instead of making new end game content.
No thanks.
If you have levels and xp and gear progression then dont have the lazy scaling systems. Vertical progression design means you have decided to keep adding new content forever - so please keep adding content as that's how you designed the game.
If you put in horizontal progression only - then no need for scaling either - so don't want to add content perpetually - well don't have any vertical progression systems.
Bottom line if the base game is designed correctly - there is zero need for scaling.
Scaling is only added to "make the already developed content last more" - that's it.
it sucks.
Content being added has nothing to do with the progression system. As ESO regularly adds content.
Yes scaling is a stop gap measure. Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level. You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal. Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler. It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.
I cant stand scaling for alot of reasons and have gone over this before in several threads ....
What i want to add here is imo FF11 and FF14 have handled this best in not trivializing the content keeping old zones fresh and active with there job system , Far superior than the weak answer of scaling to this problem ..
IMO Scaling triavializes all content in its own way and yes i have a CP 323 in ESO but .. Have not enjoyed the game nearly as much since T1 ... Every Fight feels the same there is no overland challenge at all Period for 93% of the overland combat is faceroll easy repetitive combat , Yes from lvl 1 to CP 323..
Its the same feel over an over , most mobs feel the same , different pixels , Very difficult to find any challenge Dolmens soloble , Many dungeons soloble , The only worthwhile content are Vet runs and Trials .. There are a few Overland Group areas that can be challenging and fun , but to few and far between ..
An empty feeling is left after most sessions IMO as no REAL accomplisment or progression very quickly creeps into the game ...
The Lore which i always enjoyed in ES games back to Arena and Daggerfall (still have my discs and 500 page manual) Is completly broken and borked since T1 , why as AD would i ever want to run errands for the EP King , and why would he want to reward me for it now ,I should be Killing him if given the chance not putting out his peasant fires.. Complete worthless shit now ..
Vertical progression has weakness like any system. You make a content worthwhile and slow it becomes a grind. You make it easy and all content becomes trivial fast with an end game horizontal progression that's .
That is why I have always advocated horizontal or shallow vertical progression with NPC difficulty. Difficulty in scripting and/or power. It provides difficulty and allows all to participate. Not everyone in a journey has to be an elite person. Non physical players still have to respect getting wacked even by moderate melee and vice versa.
The only problem I've found with scaling is that it's become a little harder to follow the main story lines for each faction. Skipping a main city will put you in the middle of some quests. Game breaking? It depends on your playstyle. As a wanderer I would run into partial quests all the time but having a lot of alts I've gone through the story a few times already. It might be confusing for new players.
Overall I like it, as I have more freedom to do the quests chains I like the most in the areas I like the most. I enjoy it in ESO and GW2.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Though it sadly might be the future, imo it is one of the laziest and worst features of current MMO's, and makes the whole experience bland and boring. GW2's method is the only somewhat tolerable method, I flat out will not play a game that does it like ESO etc. That game was boring as F before they added the scaling, and now it is beyond insipidly boring. Done one zone done them all.
I still say that the smartest "lateral leveling" scheme was done by Everquest 1. Sure, you made it to top level. Now grind out 1500 alternate advancement points, gotten in any order (almost) that doesn't necessarily make you so OP that you feel invincible, but does make you feel more powerful. Back then, mana was crazy to keep up. AAs allowed some of the most important spells to be done via skill and no mana. It was great. It was no different than the actual spell, it just didn't use mana, so there was no real "power" gain, but it was massively helpful. I think someone needs to do that again. That alone kept me coming back often.
It is a bit depressing that only 37 people have voted. Of these 31 have voted for traditional no scaling (including me). There seems to be more diversity of views than this, based on the comments. Even so it is sad if 37 the total number of people interested in this topic.
It is a bit depressing that only 37 people have voted. Of these 31 have voted for traditional no scaling (including me). There seems to be more diversity of views than this, based on the comments. Even so it is sad if 37 the total number of people interested in this topic.
I think horizontal progression is better. But if you're going to do the monolith of the genre then just do that.
Absolutely. Level scaling makes for more realistic progression (just becoming a better fighter doesn't suddenly make you immune to a sword wielded by a rookie). It also increases the scope of viable endgame content by making the entire world viable endgame content.
Why not? My veteran status has me better with my shield, my parries, my ripostes. A "rookie" would be lucky if they touched me.This is similar to saying, an Olympic sprinter is not much better than a Junior High School sprinter. Forget the years of training, the concentrated effort put in. They "should be" close to ability?
Still true in ESO with level scaling.
How so? I haven't played ESO. Would be interested on how this works.
Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
There are a couple of games off the top of my head that had level scaling that worked in a way that didn't hinder progression through zones. FFXI had a system where zones have levels, and the game is focused around grouping, but you could scale the party to one character in the parties level so that you could do content around that level and still get EXP, be it higher or lower than your current level.
FFXIV does this as well but in dungeons, so you scale to the level of dungeon and it gets higher levels to do the lower level content still and still be able to get rewards for doing that content, which makes finding groups a hell of a lot faster than in games where this doesn't occur.
GW2, you scale down to the zones level which is like a hybrid of both types (scaling and having stagnant levels for the zones). I like how it's done here, but it does still feel like you are pretty overpowered when you are a way higher level than the zone.
I don't like the idea of an entire game scaling to your level (ESO) because it really doesn't feel like you are progressing at all. You run from zone to zone doing whatever you want, but all fights still feel the same, just with additional skills or slightly different weapon / armor variations. It also removes the sense of story progression because you can basically just go do anything in any order.
ESO is has the 1 to 50 leveling and champion points leveling that carry over to your alts. Before level scaling if you mini-maxed you could roll through most content anyway. I leveled without crafting just using gear from drops which made it a bit more of a challenge with the four classes. That Silver and Gold quest was just a cheap grind as all they did was stick larger number on to the health bars of those in other factions, that was boring.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
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My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
The problems with scaling (players and monsters) are numerous.
Because character progression is the heart of a mmorpg (levels, skill system or however it is made), scaling character powers is extremely artificial and messing with this; scaling monsters is somewhat the same, though slightly more detached from character progression.
Scaling messes with the consistancy of the game world and makes it very gamey..for some, this is extremely immersion breaking, others are not bothered much; it is fundamentally different approaches to playing a mmorpg that is the reason.
Scaling is a artificial solution that may solve one issue but introduces game breaking problems (for the type of players who value immersion, world consistancy, etc). While at the same time, the problem scaling is trying to solve is rated very low on my list, while the consequences are very high.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
One of the worst problems with level based games that have PVP is that often the winner is determined entirely based on level difference, its why i think level based games are lazy and the entire process of levelling up is faux content and little more than a time sink.
Scaling of any kind is just a hasty bandaid over a gaping wound imo and not a true solution or cure.
I just wish that game developers would stop thinking in terms of levels and more about the game itself
No matter you put it vertical progression waste content which is a premium for this genre being made. Vertical progression makes little sense. If you truly believe your wizard can train his physical body to be stronger than a mid level warrior does it make sense. A warrior who trained half his life with magic sword can't physically harm your naked unbuffed wizard because levels.
These games are not true RPG anyways. They are based on them but the main factor CAN and probably should be other players. You could have a MMORPG be about progression with money, prestige, cosmetics, property, legacy and items and not gain a single skill point or level of combat power. Your combat ability is based on class choice, player skill and items.
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But Pantheon seems to be gaining some steam, and part of that comes from the reputation grinds, and the devs claiming it will take almost half a year to level a toon and gear it, and the fact that community will be a front and center point.....along with the fact that dying comes with an actual penalty. Not just a handful of gold to repair. You can lose levels. Part of me thinks that alone is a BRILLIANT move by an MMO developer. Think of it.....if you lose xp every time you die (mostly mitigated by clerics in the group with 96% xp rezzes), how much does that slow the content locusts. WoW's Mythic raids get cleared so fast because those guilds just slam their heads into the wall until they break through finally. Now, imagine a game where about 30 tries into a boss, half the raid de-levels. Now, you have to stop the raid, go out, level up again and get some safety xp, and return again later. It's a natural gate that puts a roadblock in for those types of players who are going to tear through the content, not really by skill per say, but because they had the most time to sit and just try over and over.
The thirst really seems to be for tougher challenges, I think. That seems to be the feeling I am getting from the community I speak to, anyways. Scaling is just another gimmick, although another good idea as then you don't have a set path to level through, and i one zone is busy, you can just choose another.
Scaling is not a gimmick. It is horizontal(shallow vertical progression) progression. It is good for the genre because content is a premium. It preserves content. It's more plausible.
I always envisioned going to a rough tavern that is scary dangerous to a newbie. Even vet must watch his back there. In vertical progression the tavern would impossible for low level, just right for the right level and the outleveled even a naked wizard can take a backstab AFK levitating.
As for immersion.. level scaling is not immersion breaking for you, but that is because we play mmorpgs for completely different reasons and approach. There are two schools and you can't please both, but you can try to understand both views.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
You're on the right track with the wizard-warrior example, but lets expand it a bit more. Lets say your character is a human, and you're going to fight trolls and later even dragons. Those creatures' physical abilities are way beyond those of a human. If you measure their strength by only a level and then scale it to the human player character, that would mean your character was on an equal ground with the monsters.
You could of course scale them using relative power difference, but wouldn't that mean your character doesn't have levels at all and all mobs had a level that indicates their relative power compared to a player character?
My point is, if you see level scaling as a solution to any problem, the problem always is that the levels exists in the first place. You can design levels without immersion breaking power gaps and have vertical progression, but not like in most traditional RGPs. That all has to be rethought and built from the ground up again. Current method is a copy of a copy of a copy from ancient RPG games from 70's.
Phasing is another thing Blizzard does to place players into content that they would otherwise not have access to unless they have completed some pre-quests/requirements first. I think if it were used to preserve each expansion as it was, the game as a whole would remain more interesting. Meaning that as a new player, you are phased to say classic WoW. That means the talent trees et al as they were. When you complete the right of passage (appropriate level and pre-quests done) you can venture to the next expansion and be phased to it. Again, talent trees et al are preserved. If you choose to venture out of the phasing, you are returned to the world but a scaled world based on the talents trees et al of the highest expansion you have been attuned to. I say attuned because you may have started an expansion but not yet completed it.
This means your character changes a lot more as you experience more of the game. This of course would never work for PVP as changes to talents means imbalance across the worlds. This also makes a much more complicated game to maintain as changes to talent trees makes NPCs stupid unless they are coded to deal with abilities that come later in game as well as those pruned away.
Players are looking for a never ending story. Most MMOs are snippets that end. Hence 'end game'. They aren't designed in a way that continues the journey, they alter the journey. In that I mean, in order to make the new content make sense, they break the old content. Hence the mess that is WoW today. Coming on 8 expansions of different stories that really could be independent games based on how they treat previous content. That is the issue longevity has had on MMOs... fear not, the movie industry has the same problem... trying to go back in time in say Star Trek but being unable to do so without making all the previous content seem outdated. Yes, this happened before the Trek you knew but they have abilities that far exceed anything that was done in the future because no one wants to see cheap parlor tricks in 2018.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Those examples would also break my immersion, but do they actually ever happen?
I'm not one for "zone levels", because I agree that "nature" doesn't work that way. But if I at first struggle in one zone at a specific level, why do I still struggle after progressing my character should I return to that same zone later on? Within the games own context, my immersion breaks with scaling.
How does one "wrap their head" around the sudden loss of abilities and skills simply by crossing a zone line? How does that immerse people? What's the rationale?
PS: I expect more ESO praise, but I don't play ESO for quite a few other reasons
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
As for true horizontal progression or really shallow vertical progression you can still gain power. You can still progress. It's just not huge stat multipliers or artificial barriers. Meaning a starting wizard may have 1 spell of each element while a vet has 10 of each. The vet will be more powerful and progress but still not inhuman with 50x stat multipliers and artificial power plateaus. I like that a newbie could contribute in a dungeon but has to be careful.
I think you have a very narrow idea of horizontal progression. Designs can make horizontal progression be as fast or slow as they want. Horizontal progression could take longer than the typical MMORPG out today that doesn't even take that long.
The best solution would be to add high level areas, wandering mobs, resources, and quests to all zones. That way your not wasting such huge chucks of the game world.
I know companies have been working on procedural content generation for a while but at some point someone will get it right and we wont have to worry about this crap anymore. Eventually the game will just spawn quests, monsters, and content based on the levels of the characters in a particular zone. Might not be in my lifetime but I can always dream.
Yes scaling is a stop gap measure. Delevopers have realized that their games already have become damn near horiztonal. The content and levels of MMORPG are a short filler until max level. You spend most of your time upgrading equipment end game. That basically is horizontal. Except it's a small amount of content because of the vertical progression filler. It makes sense to allow all of their content to be used.
That is why I have always advocated horizontal or shallow vertical progression with NPC difficulty. Difficulty in scripting and/or power. It provides difficulty and allows all to participate. Not everyone in a journey has to be an elite person. Non physical players still have to respect getting wacked even by moderate melee and vice versa.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Also, in ESO, I assume the NPC scales with your character?
FFXIV does this as well but in dungeons, so you scale to the level of dungeon and it gets higher levels to do the lower level content still and still be able to get rewards for doing that content, which makes finding groups a hell of a lot faster than in games where this doesn't occur.
GW2, you scale down to the zones level which is like a hybrid of both types (scaling and having stagnant levels for the zones). I like how it's done here, but it does still feel like you are pretty overpowered when you are a way higher level than the zone.
I don't like the idea of an entire game scaling to your level (ESO) because it really doesn't feel like you are progressing at all. You run from zone to zone doing whatever you want, but all fights still feel the same, just with additional skills or slightly different weapon / armor variations. It also removes the sense of story progression because you can basically just go do anything in any order.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey