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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,898
    lahnmir said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.

    oh you have facebook friends well good for you  mate  <3

    so now you read stories from blogs and also your "family"?

    cool. the plot thickens ... tell me more.. she reported anyone? or is she a keyboard warrior like you?

    Well, your "similar business" credentials are just as worthless as his Facebook friends so you can drop the attitude. I bet women in your country have 50% of the jobs at the top and get payed exactly the same as their male counterparts too.....

    And the part about people not being sexist in the industry or more idiotic even, not being able too, is laughable at best. Don't be ignorant.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    great. now you are white knighting for a white knight. this is hilarious  :)

    you know what is the problem with white knights? Instead of helping women they weep and cry with them.

    They are also inherently sexists because they think that all women are weak and helpless. 

    see buddy, you should not be so ignorant and read about the pay gap and other stuff you are writing about. helps for not writing idiotic stuff on forums

    /toodledoo

    Ohh please, drop the attitude, I am not impressed. And talking about existing sexism and gender inequality is white knighting now? What planet are you from?

    I guess in your Fairyland half of the positions at the top are fulfilled by women and they get payed exactly the same as men? I don't think so. And then some lovely personal attacks while providing absolutely nothing to support your infantile and ignorant claims. You're rude, rude and clueless, you sure your last name isn't Price? Laughable at best and insulting to the people that have to deal with these issues, grow up.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir 
    alkarionlog
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    So if sexism is so very real and very common, then you should have no problems at all stating at least 2 examples of it.
    Don't you just hate it when people make generic accusations without any kind of facts to back them up, i really hope you are not one of those people. :/
    alkarionlog
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:


    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    Which is easy to say when you aren't the person who had to make the decision. We have the advantage of playing Monday morning quarterback and armchair general without any worries about repercussions from our imaginary scenario making. The head of a company does not. These two individuals handed A-net the worst public relations blunder I've ever seen in a gaming company, with maybe the exception of the idiot head of Greedmonger who came here and made a complete ass of himself. They both acted with appalling arrogance and lack of forethought, and tarnished the reputation of a company and brand name of which they are only a small part. So a business decision had to be made, and business decisions by their very nature are rarely kind. So having to choose between the reputation of an entire multi million dollar company, or two badly behaving employees, I'd say the decision was a no brainer. Fries stopped being a useful employee the minute he publicly turned against the very customers that insure A-Net continues to exist and make a profit. Does it suck? Sure, but that's reality.

    Leiloni

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • Warhawke80Warhawke80 Member UncommonPosts: 223
    edited July 2018
    MosesZD said:
    1.  This isn't Price's first rodeo.  She's been fired before because she attacks people.

    2.  This isn't the first Company Price has trashed and lied about.  She does this after every firing/quitting.

    3.  I was there when it happened.  She went off for no reason.   Devs get criticised.   Most of them are men and criticized far worse and with far less respect.

    4.  It wasn't really criticism.  He was offering a different take and perspective.  Sometimes others can have that.   Sometimes it leads to the person hearing it winning a Nobel Prize in physics by making an incredibly important paradigm shift.


    I have a feeling that JP has gone a bridge too far especially considering her past with Piazo. Lisa Stevens actually started the diversification push at WoTC, when she was part of the Star Wars  D20 team, and Piazo which she is now CEO of is a model of that vision of diversification, no lie people stay at Piazo after being offered more competitive positions because of the culture.

     Piazo also regularly brings in ex WoTC employees because as we all know WoTC talks a good game, but is more about virtue signaling and appearance than actual diversification.

    I do know this, if she keeps pushing there are quite a few women and men at Piazo that will gladly talk about how impossible she is to work with, and how her throngs of supporters are mostly imaginary, as well as her penchant for exaggeration and flat out duplicity.....for now they are holding their tongues but I don't think that will last because she still keeps pushing.

    Also food for thought  WoTC wouldn't even touch her after she left Piazo and they are the epitome of the corporate face of SJW's.


    I just hope that when the people who are pissed but remaining silent, decide to  no longer do so, the game jorunos will speak to that as well....but we all know they won't because they have yet to learn anything about the recent discussion that gamers are having about ethics in game journalism.
    ScotPhryalkarionlogJeffSpicoli
  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    Speaking as a female author in typically male-dominated genres, (grimdark, sci-fi, and fantasy) Price was absolutely and without any shadow of a doubt WRONG about what she did and how she handled the situation. Also, there was not one iota of sexism in the argument until PRICE tried to insert the sexism card. Feminists need to learn that being a female does NOT give you an automatic pass on others disagreeing with you, questioning the quality of your work, or calling you out on your BS when you're pulling a fast one.

    Additionally, if she's a "professional narrative writer", she needs go thicken her skin A LOT. One of the first lessons any writer, no matter what medium you work for or in, must learn is: you will receive negative feedback on your writing. PERIOD. And the next lesson all published authors must learn is this: NEVER insult or argue with your reader. You can privately disagree with them and their critique, you can privately rant to your friends all you want, but you DO NOT insult or whine or troll or argue with your reader (and, in this case, the reader is also a GW2 player). Any author published by a big-name publisher that routinely argued or bad-mouthed people on their twitter would have had their contract pulled and been out the door on their arse.

    TLDR: Price got exactly what she deserved, and women like her are making it harder for ALL women to be taken seriously as authors or gaming devs. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
    Warhawke80AeanderJamesGoblinMisterZebubPhryMazingerZn3v3rriv3rJeffSpicoliceltwulfScotand 10 others.

    image
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    I'm just reading a news feed and Daniella Greenbaum was fired (forced to resign) from Business Insider for writing a column suggesting Scarlett Johanson should be able to play a trans man. Which shows both how easy it is to lose your job and how journalism has devolved into clickbait activism.

    Sanity does not produce enough controversy for those hate peddlers. Which is also why those ghouls at Forbes are grave dancing over Totalbiscuit's grave.
    Warhawke80PhryNyctelioshanshotfirst
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    TheAmir said:
    Speaking as a female author in typically male-dominated genres, (grimdark, sci-fi, and fantasy) Price was absolutely and without any shadow of a doubt WRONG about what she did and how she handled the situation. Also, there was not one iota of sexism in the argument until PRICE tried to insert the sexism card. Feminists need to learn that being a female does NOT give you an automatic pass on others disagreeing with you, questioning the quality of your work, or calling you out on your BS when you're pulling a fast one.

    Additionally, if she's a "professional narrative writer", she needs go thicken her skin A LOT. One of the first lessons any writer, no matter what medium you work for or in, must learn is: you will receive negative feedback on your writing. PERIOD. And the next lesson all published authors must learn is this: NEVER insult or argue with your reader. You can privately disagree with them and their critique, you can privately rant to your friends all you want, but you DO NOT insult or whine or troll or argue with your reader (and, in this case, the reader is also a GW2 player). Any author published by a big-name publisher that routinely argued or bad-mouthed people on their twitter would have had their contract pulled and been out the door on their arse.

    TLDR: Price got exactly what she deserved, and women like her are making it harder for ALL women to be taken seriously as authors or gaming devs. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
    Thank you for this. I wish more women in the industry would speak up about this situation.
    Warhawke80celtwulfTacticalZombehNycteliosYashaX

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,241
     Fries stopped being a useful employee the minute he publicly turned against the very customers that insure A-Net continues to exist and make a profit. Does it suck? Sure, but that's reality.

    See, again, I disagree, that isn't why he stopped being a useful employee.  In fact, if he was good at his job, then he was still a useful employee.  His response wasn't harsh at all.  

    It's way more likely he's gone due to price playing the sexist card than his mild defense attempt. Either that or he was completely expendable. 

    Either way, what's done is done.  We don't know exactly the inner workings of what happened, and Bill may have some insight that we don't that he can't publicly disclose due to ... perhaps those that told him being at risk, knowing what he may know about MO.

    And that's really all I was saying. To say there weren't other ways to handle Fries is incorrect, but it was handled how MO and it can't be changed. My point wasn't to say that what happened was wrong in some way necessarily, I'm just trying to validate that MOs choices don't make him out to be something more than he is. 



  • Starbuck1771Starbuck1771 Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Sadly I disagree Bill. This woman had several chances to change and had been fired from companies due to simular issues previously. This is the same woman who said she was glad a member of the GW2 community died of cancer. No matter how one sided your editorial is there is no excuse for her actions and that disgusting and disrespectful woman got what she deserved. She made herself a liability nobody else is to blame. Btw try to at least get both sides of the story.
    LeiloniYashaX

    image
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited July 2018
     Fries stopped being a useful employee the minute he publicly turned against the very customers that insure A-Net continues to exist and make a profit. Does it suck? Sure, but that's reality.

    See, again, I disagree, that isn't why he stopped being a useful employee.  In fact, if he was good at his job, then he was still a useful employee.  His response wasn't harsh at all.  

    It's way more likely he's gone due to price playing the sexist card than his mild defense attempt. Either that or he was completely expendable. 

    Either way, what's done is done.  We don't know exactly the inner workings of what happened, and Bill may have some insight that we don't that he can't publicly disclose due to ... perhaps those that told him being at risk, knowing what he may know about MO.

    And that's really all I was saying. To say there weren't other ways to handle Fries is incorrect, but it was handled how MO and it can't be changed. My point wasn't to say that what happened was wrong in some way necessarily, I'm just trying to validate that MOs choices don't make him out to be something more than he is. 
    And I understand and respect your point of view. Its great you have sympathy for the guy. I'm just arguing from the business stand point, and business decisions are rarely sentimental. Price decided to dig a deep damned hole and sadly Fries climbed in with her. While Fries disciplinary action could have been handled differently it would have likely lead to other ramifications and issues. O'Brien decided that the best choice was a clean break. And in doing so, no he wasn't being a hero, he was simply being a boss. From personal experience having to make these kinds of decisions they are usually the hardest ones you'll ever have to make. Try making one where the mistake of the employee in question cost someone their life. Firing Fries might seem overly harsh to you and might look like the easy way out for O'Brien, but he's the one who had to make that decision, and will have to live with it, regardless of what you or might think.
    maskedweaselMadFrenchieLeiloniTacticalZombehStarbuck1771

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:


    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    They both acted with appalling arrogance and lack of forethought, and tarnished the reputation of a company and brand name of which they are only a small part. So a business decision had to be made, and business decisions by their very nature are rarely kind.

    As my former boss once said, "It's not personal, it's just business." She was explaining to us how she dealt with situations at work where her initial reaction was somewhat emotional. This line was her way of reminding herself that there's no reason to be upset or anything else because at the end of the day, work related decisions are made to get the job done and for the best of the company, not because of any personal feelings about a person or situation.
    Starbuck1771MisterZebub
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,538
    I have only one thing to say about this article and the position mmorpg took on the matter:

    Lol.
    JeffSpicoliTacticalZombehAeanderStarbuck1771NephethYashaX
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member RarePosts: 1,945
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    So less women in the games industry until recently = sexism. Okay, sure. 

    I'm sure the fact that women weren't as interested in the industry (and still aren't) overall as men are had / has nothing  to do with that. Nope, nope, it's all because of widespread SEXISM due to the evil machinations of the patriarchy, the same one which ensures men get screwed in divorce court and child custody battles. That's why the mere accusation of rape or any kind of sexual misconduct against a man can ruin his whole life, even if the woman was found to be lying. Yup, patriarchy!

    Oh, and let me guess, the over-exaggerated pay gap doesn't exist due to men's preference to seek higher paying, more time intensive employment than women, who would rather spend their time at home as opposed to the office (NOT a bad thing at all)? Nope, it's because of sexism! The fact that young professional women in their 20's make about 3% more than their male counterparts in the same field just doesn't exist either, does it?

    The only place where women have to 'constantly deal with sexism' in this day and age is in that grey mass of jelly between your ears. I'm not saying there are no incidents of it at all (as with racism, homophobia, religious discrimination, etc.), but suggesting it's some sort of widespread problem in any industry today is absolutely laughable. I've certainly never seen it, and you'd better believe I'd stand against it if I did. 

    Remember the days when employers could just give jobs to the most qualified applicants without having to worry about whether or not they employed enough (insert gender, racial, ethnic group here) to placate the screaming masses of perpetually offended snowflakes and meet racist / sexist government regulations? Good times. 
    Starbuck1771NephethYashaX

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    Starbuck1771YashaX
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    No, I think it does harm beause it does.  She's chicken little.
    Starbuck1771AeanderYashaX

    image
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,538
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    Sexism is not a issue in the gaming industry.

    Sexism is a terrible issue in any given industry or community and must be dealt with.

    But the worst thing you can do to your cause is to lie to push it. Just like, back in the day, the considered head of veganism made a presentation about how humanity evolved naturally towards not consuming meat.

    I don't want to get into the matter, please don't follow up that topic, but are you aware the amount of time it took to people related to vegan activism properly clean that PR mess he made?

    So, that's the issue with an open group, happens quite often in any "field" of activism: Someone is loudly saying it represents it and messes it up, now everyone who is somehow against said topic will use that person who messed up as a flagship against yourself and your cause to switch public opinion. As some people say: Congratulations, you just played yourself.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DarkestOverlordDarkestOverlord Member UncommonPosts: 545
    So guildwars 2 is dead now? :p




  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    I am not saying Price did the right thing, never have.

    But on this page alone, 2 people tried to pass off that Sexism is not an issue for Women in the gaming industry, now.. just imagine being a women in this industry, dealing with that kind of stupid day in and day out.

    Again.. Not saying what she did was right, just saying take a moment to think of where she was coming from.

    While maybe you as a male might think she looks worse, or does harm, no doubt there are a lot of women who are in the industry, who deal with the sexism on a daily basis, saying "This is why I don't voice my real feelings", I can't even imagine how bat shit crazy it would drive some left wing feminist.. but Price is a pretty good example.


    Jessica Price described the meeting where Mike O'Brien fired her, as a man using his position of power to make a woman listen to his frustration that her actions hurt what they were accomplishing at Arenanet together.

    If any interaction between a man and woman, where the man position doesn't match the woman position is sexism, then sexism is meaningless.

    Where the hell in western societies do you find any adult aged under 40 (more likely under 60, everyone here heard about the sixties right and that was almost 60 years ago), that believe men and women aren't equal intellect wise?

    Sexism should have never been used in this discussion and the gaming media should have criticised Jessica Price for using sexism in this situation.

    She was not harassed, she was not disrespected. The fan just wanted more information. Knowing his background he wouldn't have cared if JP would have said "what you suggest isn't feasible as a solution for this. for starters it would cost too much."

    Sexism is a straw man. She was rude but instead of admitting it or just letting it go she changed the subject to sexism and she being a victim. In the end something bad happen to her, losing her job, but it was her creation but maybe she didn't thought it was possible because maybe she is surrounded by people like the gaming media that create this narrative that simply doesn't echo with majority of the people outside those small bubbles (yes, they are small, but if they are the only people you interact with, maybe you believe it is everyone).
    MisterZebub

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  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126
    edited July 2018
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”

    Except she was not harassed in this case.
    Had she been harassed, Deroir would have been banned and lost his partnership with Arenanet.

    Would have that been the fair conclusion for this story?
    Jessica Price accused Deroir of sexism (she retweeted his tweet when she said "a day in being a female developer").
    Either it is true or not.

    She was not harassed. She started the harassment.

    Developers need guidance?
    How about "don't be an ass in social media, especially towards someone that is being polite, regardless of his lack of knowledge".
    Another one for the cases someone is actually harassing "don't feed the trolls".

    Again, she was not harassed. She started the harassment.

    Anything about sexism in the gaming industry or fear of being mob targeted are completely irrelevant to this matter.

    She was fired because she was an ass (more than once) towards a polite fan in social media while stating she is an Arenanet employee and talking/using Guild Wars 2 in her tweets.
    EponyxDamorTacticalZombehNephethTheAmir

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  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 517
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    Ungood
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 622
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”

    looks like a generic hit piece to me.

    speaking of hit piece why don't you post the Forbes article that came out on the 2 days ago trashing john bain so everyone can see how the industry views its fan base.
    JeffSpicoliAeanderNyctelios
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,241
    Leiloni said:
    SBFord said:


    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    They both acted with appalling arrogance and lack of forethought, and tarnished the reputation of a company and brand name of which they are only a small part. So a business decision had to be made, and business decisions by their very nature are rarely kind.

    As my former boss once said, "It's not personal, it's just business." She was explaining to us how she dealt with situations at work where her initial reaction was somewhat emotional. This line was her way of reminding herself that there's no reason to be upset or anything else because at the end of the day, work related decisions are made to get the job done and for the best of the company, not because of any personal feelings about a person or situation.
     That's not always the ideal way to think about things in all cases though.  Compassion has its place in business.  What is great for business isn't always the best way to handle a situation. It's kind of backwards, show compassion to the customers but not to your employees, because "business is business".

     Just the other day a story of a manager not showing compassion to an employee got that manager fired.  It's all circumstantial.



  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 627
    SBFord said:
    The Verge has put up a lengthy, but well-researched and documented article titled "ArenaNet firings cast a chill shadow over the games industry". It's not short and it goes far beyond the Price firing. It's a good read for those inclined to see the wider impact of this week's events.

    I dunno...it was an interesting read. Not sure it changes anything though. :D

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

    “This incident makes very clear the perils of social media for game developers, especially when transparent and well-understood guidelines for staff members are not in place,” the IGDA post reads. “Game developers are also frequently targeted for harassment, particularly if they are members of under-represented communities. Companies must plan for how they will support their staff members in the event of online harassment, and should clearly communicate the resources they will make available to their team to have safe, productive, and positive interactions online, especially if they are expected to do so in their roles.”

    The problem with all these articles is that no matter how many words you throw in, garbage is garbage. They are all a list of excuses why she was fired, not reasons.

    Sure, there is definitely an issue with the mob mentality, particularly from certain sites, and their ability to raise enough stink to cause an investigation. That is a problem, but it wasn't the problem here.

    She was fired because she was a complete shithead to someone, absolutely unwarranted. She then threw sexism in where it didn't exist. She then, and now, continues to double down on her imaginary crusade. People get fired for getting busted being a shithead on social media when it is absolutely and completely NOT related to their job. Every day. THAT is the reason for all this. The rest is crying wolf.

    I hate paying my bills. It feels very oppressive. I don't bitch out the mailwoman for bringing them though. 

    If there is such an issue with sexism then take it up within the industry. Don't take it out on random people who engage with you socially in an arena that is for... social interaction, where you posted publicly and indirectly invited... social interaction. An interaction she created about her job, while having her job and the company she works for displayed clearly. Not only was it not sexist, she wasn't even being harassed. Her responses were more harassment than what she endured and she clearly tried to use her position, that was clearly displayed, to empower her position and harassment.

    Everything you read since this incident that is a directly attributed quote from her lays the blame everywhere else. Anywhere else. Sexism. Deroir was being sexist. O'Brien was being sexist. Everyone else was being sexist. Nope. She was being sexist. Still is. 

    There is a reason why Jackie Robinson was chosen to integrate major league baseball when he was not the best African American baseball player. Be careful where you hitch your wagon. She was in. She had an opportunity to actually do great things for women in the gaming industry. That never really looked like her modus operandi though. 
    JeffSpicoliEponyxDamorTacticalZombehNycteliosNepheth
  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 627
    btdt said:
    Hate to tell you boys, but inequality and sexism are very much alive in the workforce.  If it were not the case, I wouldn't have received an award from a class action lawsuit... twice from my previous employer... for breaking the same damn rules.  Times may be different now, but the issues still remain.  Anyone saying otherwise is either a male, incredibly lucky, or so oblivious to it that they don't even know that it's happening.

    You don't know this individual's entire history at their workplace.  You can't say whether sexism was or was not involved because you weren't there to witness it.  You're merely commenting on hearsay anecdotes available on the web.  And lord knows, everything you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    Then take that up the proper channels. It is still completely irrelevant in this situation. There was no sexism in this incident. It is all there to see. Clearly.

    Did you get your class action awards from being an asshole to people on Twitter? Or was there some other path to accomplish that?
    RhoklawJeffSpicoliNycteliosTheAmir
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