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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    1.  This isn't Price's first rodeo.  She's been fired before because she attacks people.

    2.  This isn't the first Company Price has trashed and lied about.  She does this after every firing/quitting.

    3.  I was there when it happened.  She went off for no reason.   Devs get criticised.   Most of them are men and criticized far worse and with far less respect.

    4.  It wasn't really criticism.  He was offering a different take and perspective.  Sometimes others can have that.   Sometimes it leads to the person hearing it winning a Nobel Prize in physics by making an incredibly important paradigm shift.


    LeiloniYashaXJeffSpicoliWarhawke80alkarionlogaRtFuLThinGrojoArcueid
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,898
    I find it interesting that there's such a backlash due to anet pandering to their fans. I mean, stop and think about it for a bit, their fans are their profit, it they're not happy anet isn't making money. When it comes down to it, developers are a dime a dozen and if the fans aren't happy then they aren't paying. It makes perfect sense to prioritize pacifying their payerbase over their development team.,

    That's because there actually isn't such a backlash. Not among the customers anyhow. It's garbage tier news sites, the same ones that have shown to be anti customer and actively colluding to promote an agenda in the past, that are on the side of Price on this. You know the names, we all know the names.

    Now, I don't include mmorpg.com among them at this point, I think this opinion piece is simply misguided.
    Phry
  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    MikeB said:
    celtwulf said:
    SBFord said:
    thunderC said:




    That said, I don't necessarily view the subject matter of this piece as inherently political, but the potential for it to become a political discussion wasn't lost on me. 
    Good because we plebs and forum warriors knew that it was a political issue even before reading the article. You know why? Should I tell you or you will figure it alone?

    Because all gaming outlets are talking about this and most of them have a political agenda behind.

    If you are trying to serve to us that an article about company politics,  gender politics, social politics is NOT political well I seriously doubt 1/3 of the people on this forum is eating that.

    If this article was written at a random time and about a random employee (maybe a man and without using "mansplaining" on his twitter ) then ... maybe ...but not here and not now. Sorry.

    (oh and if before you say "but the word "politics" was never mentioned in this article". I will ask you another question. You know what is one of the most important factors in every social setting or even legal procedures?


    CONTEXT


    )
    JeffSpicolialkarionlog
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    JeffSpicoliTorval



  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    n3v3rriv3rBillMurphyalkarionlog
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.

    and no offense to GW2 players, but their story has never really been held up as a pinnacle of the genre.  I've always seen it as merely adequate, but I'm not familiar with her contributions to it.
    EponyxDamorIselinBillMurphymaskedweaselSlyLoKThreatlevel0alkarionlogLeiloniYashaX
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    The easiest thing he could have done was to bury his head in sand and pretend nothing happened. He'd be lauded as champion of the women and fighting against misogyny and all that nonsense, none of whom apply here, but would be credited regardless.

    The hardest would be to deal with the need to find and train two new developers, the press backlash and the character assassination attempts.

    His move surprised everyone exactly because he didn't choose the easy way out.

    One subtle thing not many may have noticed. Mike O'Brien thanked her for her early contribution to GW2, but said nothing about her later work. Jessica Price claimed her work is everywhere in GW2 and will be visible for years. I have the feeling that O'Brien was not happy with her work, she realised it and devised this method so she could go out in a blaze of glory. The whole thing obviously backfired when her "harasser" happened to be the most timid and polite person imaginable. The rest is history (in the making or rewriting for some).

    All the above are obviously my own speculations. The voices in my head however assured me that everything is true.
    JeffSpicoliPhryFrodoFraginsLeiloni
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,760
    I have just been reading her follow up comments. Apparently MO picking out something good he wanted to remember her for was designed to pretend that's all she did. Also by firing MO wanted to escalate her harassment, that was his aim here. Also while offering these "explanations" she still has to call everyone assholes, she just cannot put a lid on it.

    I stopped reading there, she lives in cloud cuckoo land and I really don't want to give her any more of my time.
    laxieThreatlevel0LeiloniTacticalZombehYashaX

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  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

     .. but maybe only in our country are laws in place that prevents this and maybe only where I live men and women have a contract based on skills not on gender and maybe only here we have human resources department and legal department that handles that kind of issues...


    alkarionlog
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    laxieMadFrenchieGhavriggn3v3rriv3rfrostymugSedrynTyrosThreatlevel0alkarionlogTacticalZombehhanshotfirstand 2 others.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    Does anyone else keep seeing her face in that howdy doody cowboy hat & outfit looking to sky every time someone mentions her name in a post ? lol
    hanshotfirstDakeru
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.

    and no offense to GW2 players, but their story has never really been held up as a pinnacle of the genre.  I've always seen it as merely adequate, but I'm not familiar with her contributions to it.
    Pretty much this, I'm not saying that sexism isn't apparent, because it is, I'm saying in this particular instance.

    In this instance it was basically like a parody show, where the protagonist reads into things way more than they were meant to. 

    "Sir would you like to supersize the order?"
    "Why are you asking me? Because I'm fat?" 
    "No sir we ask everyone that question." 

    I'm not saying there's not an overarching sexism war that women are up against, I'm just saying this battle she's fighting of the streamer, and what MO did, wasn't due to sexism, and sometimes just being a jerk is enough of a reason for you to be punished.
    FrodoFraginsalkarionlog



  • MazingerZMazingerZ Member UncommonPosts: 52
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,908
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.
    Not only that but when she immediately went there and started going on about mansplaining that harms the credibility of the legitimate occasions when this is the case and it invites the reactionary hordes who want to deny that it exists as a real issue to pile on.

    She made a very detailed and interesting series of tweets explaining why it's much easier to give player characters depth in single player games because those characters' personality is more pre-defined by the game.

    Deroir's response about branching did not have the same level of depth as her tweets and when I read it I immediately thought that it would lead to a complex and unwieldy mess of never ending branches that would be hugely resource intensive.

    I expected her to dismiss his response on that basis and Peter actually did touch on that in one of his tweets. But instead she was rude and defensive when she could have simply said something along the lines of what Peter eventually said.

    But she didn't stop there. She then retweeted Deroir's comment as a "women in gaming" issue when it was nothing of the sort. That was a truly WTF tweet. Even her original response, unnecessarily rude as it was, amounted to nothing more than "You amateur. Me pro. Piss off." Not a great response but damage could have been controlled if she had just left it at that.

    It was precisely when she tried to turn it into something about sexism that she opened the floodgates and turned it into a shit show. 
    MadFrenchieMisterZebubAeanderlaxieJamesGoblinThreatlevel0FrodoFraginsalkarionlogTacticalZombehYashaX
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    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    You don't try to publicly shame a customer as a company representative unless the action of the customer was objectively reprehensible.  She did so, and that was the signature on her pink slip.
    JamesGoblinLeiloni

    image
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.
    alkarionlog
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    MadFrenchieTorval



  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    maskedweaselJeffSpicolin3v3rriv3ralkarionlog
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,703
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Nobody is debating that.  We are saying that someone offering a differing opinion doesn't make it sexism.  Yet she was super quick to invoke that card and act like a victim.
    Not only that but when she immediately went there and started going on about mansplaining that harms the credibility of the legitimate occasions when this is the case and it invites the reactionary hordes who want to deny that it exists as a real issue to pile on.

    She made a very detailed and interesting series of tweets explaining why it's much easier to give player characters depth in single player games because those characters' personality is more pre-defined by the game.

    Deroir's response about branching did not have the same level of depth as her tweets and when I read it I immediately thought that it would lead to a complex and unwieldy mess of never ending branches that would be hugely resource intensive.

    I expected her to dismiss his response on that basis and Peter actually did touch on that in one of his tweets. But instead she was rude and defensive when she could have simply said something along the lines of what Peter eventually said.

    But she didn't stop there. She then retweeted Deroir's comment as a "women in gaming" issue when it was nothing of the sort. That was a truly WTF tweet. Even her original response, unnecessarily rude as it was, amounted to nothing more than "You amateur. Me pro. Piss off." Not a great response but damage could have been controlled if she had just left it at that.

    It was precisely when she tried to turn it into something about sexism that she opened the floodgates and turned it into a shit show. 
    That's the strange thing about all of this. Had she been civil, or at least admitted her mistake early enough to apologize and course correct, no one would be talking about this and nothing would have happened.

    Price's opinion was in every financially practical sense correct. Deroir's opinion was vague, unhelpful, and impractical, even if it was polite and respectful. We've already seen branching MMO narrative in vanilla Guild Wars 2, and the results of this were an expensive, mediocre story. Price had no right or reason to take offense to him, but also had no need to respond at all. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited July 2018
    Ungood said:
    MazingerZ said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.
    Yes, but from a pragmatic point of view, there will always be people out there attempting to grift on people's better natures.

    No one is denying these assertions.  They just deny that this is a case of sexism in this instance.

    This is half the blow-back from all the articles on this.  A lot of centrist people are seeing an ideology push forth a narrative and understand how damaging that is to talking across the aisle.
    Again.. I am not defending Price or what she did..

    Just saying that Sexism is very real and very common in the game industry , it is,. still a sausage party.
    What most of us are saying is, in this particular instance, the larger issue is not applicable.  In fact, it hurts the larger issue.  Erego, trying to bring it up is only highlighting how awfully Price's actions harm it.  No one disagrees it happens, it's just not relevant to this particular situation.  Or, if it is, it's relevant only in how much worse it makes Price's actions.
    maskedweaselEponyxDamor

    image
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    Oh I read it I chose to ignore it as I'd already stated my opinion on Fries before. Here's what I said previously. When Fries came to the defense of Price and told Dreoir his input was not asked for, he then also defended all of Price's bad behavior. He stopped being an innocent bystander or collateral damage and instead became a co-conspirator. He acted with no more self awareness of how wrong his or Price's actions were so therefore is just as guilty.
    maskedweasel

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • vorrin5vorrin5 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Since I get to read this stuff as I post it, all I can say is nicely done @billmurphy !

    My favorite comment in all of this that, I believe, should be shouted from the rooftops:

    "I’ve spoken with several former employees of ArenaNet and they’ve all told me the same thing: MO is not the hero Guild Wars fans make him out to be. Quite often, it’s the opposite: he’s a founder and the company president, but there’s a reason he’s the only founder left at the company. There’s a reason many of the people who were responsible for the sky-high dreams of Guild Wars 2 left for other studios. There’s a reason that MO’s the only founder left."
    The comment that tip toes around libel to imply there's something ominous if not abundantly shameful about ArenaNet's Mike O’Brien? 

    That's what MMORPG.com's News Manager believes should be shouted from the rooftops?
    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    I mentioned this before but, since Jessica played the gender card, she forced their hand on Peter. They couldn't keep him employed or she could point to him as proof that ANet discriminates based on gender.

    Edit: I should also point out that Peter reinforced it being about gender in his deleted tweets, so he helped force their hand as well.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    SBFord said:

    I think people are blowing that a little out of context. It's not saying that what MO did was wrong specifically in this instance.  

    While there were other options on the table other than firing her, firing her simply isn't where the buck stops with a comment like that.

    People seem to be grouping two thoughts together, simply MO isn't some great hero for firing her.  People laud his decision as some kind of masterful plan, when in reality it was probably the easiest thing MO could have done.

    If the employee was valued, if both employees were valued, the tougher yet more heroic thing would be to find a way to keep them both.  Or at least keep Peter, as his role was substantially less than price.  

    From a developer standpoint, if the easiest go to for any company where an infraction occurs is to get fired, no questions asked, no strikes involved, then yeah, MO does come off as a poor employer.  

    From the perspective of us, the gamers, what do we care? We don't work for them, our stakes aren't our livelihood, so he can be our "hero" by firing people we don't like, without taking into consideration the lives of those developers, what they might be going through, and how things that we, as gamers who interact with them, can actually affect them.


    Again, to me, it's not about Jessica Price in this instance. I think she's a jerk. I think she's delusional.  I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present.  It seems like her vulgarity and poor judgement are go-to's for her, and that just seems to be her personality in my estimation.  But that is also just a singular issue, whereas the MO issue is another perspective that most people looking at it just from the outside gamer angle of whats going on with Jessica Price likely won't take the time to think about, much less try to understand.
    And what you an others who keep arguing the Mike O'Brien angle are failing to understand is that most of us don't give a rats fucking ass if the Jessica Price fiasco could have been handled differently, for the very opinion you just gave of her. She has shown herself to be completely lacking in any self awareness that her behavior was in any way wrong. She is totally unrepentant, off the rails, and has continued after her firing to try to drag Anet and Mike O'Brien's names through the mud by claiming they are now also part of the male dominating conspiracy that got her fired. When in fact its her inability to not act like a rabid asshole that caused her fall from grace. Gee, just like her last job. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Bill might have insider information that Mike O'Brien is indeed an asshole, but we the public sure as fuck don't. But what we do see, right out in public, bold as brass, is one spoiled little toxic dickhead continuing on her little imaginary crusade and we're fucking appalled by it. And we're doubly appalled that some gaming sites are trying to deflect and spin this as anything but Jessica Price shooting herself in the foot with both barrels by being breathtakingly vicious, rude, bigoted, and down right delusional. How anyone can sit there and say she should have been given another chance is beyond the pale.
    It's almost like you didn't read the post you quoted.  I said straight up that you (we) as gamers aren't looking at it from the perspective of developers, and only look at it from what we see from Price. My point wasn't from Jessica Price or Peter Fries, but other developers in general, and then you basically stated, in a much more bombastic way, exactly what I was saying, that 1, she should have been fired, and 2, that you don't know nor care what it looks like from the developers perspective.


    The point I'm making is, if you were an employee at Anet and saw two developers getting fired, Price was an easy nope, Fries, that was a little much considering the circumstance.  Lets not pretend that what he did was indefensible, that could have simply been explained away in a quick statement that Fries was trying (and failing) to deescalate the situation.  In all honesty if that happened, nobody would have cared one way or another because they would be focused on the real damage dealer, Price, who was unapologetically crass in her responses. 

    So from an internal observer of what happened, it could simply be demoralizing to know that your "boss" wouldn't have your back in Peters case, no strikes, no warnings, just gone, and in that way MO could easily be seen as a bad boss, a jerk, whatever.


    But that is independent of Price.  At least how I perceive it, MO being a jerk is related but segregated from JP.
    Oh I read it I chose to ignore it as I'd already stated my opinion on Fries before. Here's what I said previously. When Fries came to the defense of Price and told Dreoir his input was not asked for, he then also defended all of Price's bad behavior. He stopped being an innocent bystander or collateral damage and instead became a co-conspirator. He acted with no more self awareness of how wrong his or Price's actions were so therefore is just as guilty.
    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".



  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    lahnmir said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    maskedweasel said:
     I think, in this instance, she's fighting an imaginary battle of sexism in situations where no sexism was present. 
    I just wanna say a little bit here.

    Sexism in Video Game is huge.I used to read developer blogs, and all the stories I could about game development. And the reality is, Video Games has been for a long time a hugely male dominated  business in both creator and connoisseur.  

    It is only maybe in the last decade that the numbers have moved significantly, where women are getting involved in games, both playing and making.

    So there is no doubt that Price constantly has to deal with sexism in the work place and by outsiders, as a lot of other women. Will they say so publicly?...Well, not unless they want to lose their job. 

    But make no mistake, the sexism is there against women in that field.

    Just wanted to put that out. I am not defending Price, or her actions, I am not saying anything other then that the Sexism in the Video Game profession is very real, and still very much ongoing.

      Yep if it happens on internet then it is true.

     Pssssssst: I work in similar business and nobody is, CAN or should be sexist to anybody ... but your experience from reddit is different I  understand.

    Developer Blogs, and I, I would wager, unlike some of you, have a few developers as Facebook friends and we trade dog pictures and talk about where we eat and life and shit (sometimes we even discuss work).  Not to mention I have 2 family members in the gaming industry,one of which is a female.

    But hey.. thanks for the wrong assumptions and rampant ignorance.

    oh you have facebook friends well good for you  mate  <3

    so now you read stories from blogs and also your "family"?

    cool. the plot thickens ... tell me more.. she reported anyone? or is she a keyboard warrior like you?

    Well, your "similar business" credentials are just as worthless as his Facebook friends so you can drop the attitude. I bet women in your country have 50% of the jobs at the top and get payed exactly the same as their male counterparts too.....

    And the part about people not being sexist in the industry or more idiotic even, not being able too, is laughable at best. Don't be ignorant.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

     great. now you are white knighting for a white knight. this is hilarious  :)

    you know what is the problem with white knights? Instead of helping women they weep and cry with them.

    They are also inherently sexists because they think that all women are weak and helpless. 

    see buddy, you should not be so ignorant and read about the pay gap and other stuff you are writing about. helps for not writing idiotic stuff on forums

    /toodledoo


    oh. and about my credentials.... thats the point Einstein. it is the internet but I am not whining about pay gap, sexism and other stuff. the burden of proof is not on me... agreed?
  • vorrin5vorrin5 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited July 2018

    Then to that, we disagree.  I don't believe what he did was nearly as bad, and he seemed much more reasonable.

    From the perspective of a boss, which I've been over departments before, it comes down to the work though.  It doesn't seem like they valued either of them,  but if Fries work was valued at all, it would not have been too tough to have kept him.  

    This entire conversation would be largely the same if Fries kept his job.  You'd still have some people who would want him fired, which would be largely overblown, but it wouldn't be any kind of outrage from anyone else apart from those pushing a sexism agenda. "He kept the job she lost the job"  but in an infraction sense, she was way worse than he was.

    And that's likely why he was fired in the first place, not from his comments, as Price was too quick to cry sexism, if he didn't get fired, MO would have plenty of allegations thrown his way from her about why she was let go and peter wasn't....  His "defense" of her actions was really a half ass defense, however misguided an illogical as it was, but hardly attacking customers.

    And that goes back into why firing them both was the easiest thing. Why MO did what was easy, not necessarily what was "heroic".
    I would argue that it was his only choice. The backlash for keeping Peter employed would surely outweigh what they have faced for firing him. Notice how articles mostly gloss over his firing and keep handing her a soap box to shout from. Peter has been smart and not added fuel to the fire, but I don't believe that the conversation would be largely the same if he was still at ANet.

    MO chose the smart option. There is no "heroic" option in this situation.
    maskedweasel
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