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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • cronius77cronius77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,631
    Wow, so many people to reply to. So many people being triggered. One could be forgiven for thinking they were all loony lefty snowflakes, because we all know they're the enemies of free speech.

    Unfortunately it's getting on towards 1 am here in good old blighty and I want to see who else has abandoned Theresa the appeaser, the Brexit betrayer. So I'll say goodnight to all and don't have collective apoplexy.
    lol wow dude you took a debate about some girl popping off at the mouth and turned it completely into a red vs blue argument. If anyone's triggered here it's definitely you. I guess you agree with all the videos out there also of idiots using racial slurs towards people , I guess according to your thought process they should just tough it up and stand for that also right? This woman spewed off banter that made the company look bad if they didn't do anything about it. You turned this into some political correctness argument that doesn't exist. What it boils down to is when you disrespect others on social media you can get canned. It's no different than teachers being fired for drunk pics or talking trash on their facebooks. If you have a high profile job which is viral , you have to use your judgement on what you post.
    PhryAeanderYashaXMadFrenchieThreatlevel0vandal5627ysquare21
  • angaelsangaels Member UncommonPosts: 18
    Dragging MO's name through the mud when I haven't heard anything negative about him seems reaching. Yes he is the final founder as they could not agree how to move forward from GW, which Im sure was tough for all and there was some tough feelings about it all around.. But Ive been with GW from the beginning and Ive not heard major negativity that seems to come from this article..

    It almost seems that by mentioning the short-comings of one person it is ideal to bring down another to balance the scales even if it is here-say.. Which IMHO seems wrong.
    YashaXLeiloniysquare21
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,565
    cronius77 said:
    Wow, so many people to reply to. So many people being triggered. One could be forgiven for thinking they were all loony lefty snowflakes, because we all know they're the enemies of free speech.

    Unfortunately it's getting on towards 1 am here in good old blighty and I want to see who else has abandoned Theresa the appeaser, the Brexit betrayer. So I'll say goodnight to all and don't have collective apoplexy.
    lol wow dude you took a debate about some girl popping off at the mouth and turned it completely into a red vs blue argument. If anyone's triggered here it's definitely you. I guess you agree with all the videos out there also of idiots using racial slurs towards people , I guess according to your thought process they should just tough it up and stand for that also right? This woman spewed off banter that made the company look bad if they didn't do anything about it. You turned this into some political correctness argument that doesn't exist. What it boils down to is when you disrespect others on social media you can get canned. It's no different than teachers being fired for drunk pics or talking trash on their facebooks. If you have a high profile job which is viral , you have to use your judgement on what you post.
    Got it in one. Yes, I think they should suck it up. It's words not a smack in the mouth. And it's not red vs blue, at least not in my opinion. You either believe in free speech or you oppose it, regardless of where you fall on the political compass.

    I'm neither red nor blue according to the last result I had on a political compass test. I'm very much "in the middle".

    In yet another example used by someone, why the fuck should a teacher get fired for being drunk? So what if he was on facebook. What if he never took the photo, what if it was his mates? He's never allowed to get shitfaced just because he's a teacher?

    The world has gone mad, I tell you.
    PhryAeanderMadFrenchie
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member UncommonPosts: 712
    sayuu said:
    Scellow said:
    None of them should have been fired, they HAVE THE FUCKING RIGHT to think / and say WHATEVER they want in their FREE TIME, if they did something illegal, or disrecpectfull, you can report tweet on twitter or give your lawyer a call

    They got fired, i hope they'll sure ArenaNet, America is fucked up
    Look! Someone with a brain! A FREE THINKER! Proof that not everyone subscribes to the PC madness corrupting society.

    PC will be the death of free speech, and that, people, will be the death of democracy.
    you are literally crying about actions having consequences.


    and F.W.I. democracy = tyranny 

    Actions? ACTIONS?
    I refer to my earlier "sticks and stones" comment.
    Words are not actions. It's one thing to say something and something quite different to act upon those words. Had she physically assaulted someone then fair game but she didn't. She posted some comments on twitter. I mean, seriously, she posted some comments on twitter. Big fucking deal.

    This is exactly the kind of PC, namby pamby bollocks I'm talking about.

    Edit, @MadFrenchie as well. Actions, get real.
    If you don't believe an employee of the company can, through words alone, cause very real negative repercussions for their company that the company would have a vested interest in protecting against, then I have to hope you never work for the company I work for.
    Once again this is just another example showing that PC has gone beyond the pale. It shouldn't even be an issue but because of unchecked political correctness, running amok, we find this atmosphere in which fear of consequences forces people to act (over react) on the slightest perceived offense.

    You should not have to fear for your job because something you say may have repercussions on your company, not if you don't speak for them officially. This is the insanity of political correctness.
    I agree with what you are saying to a point - but before the term "political correctness" was coined, people were fired from work for actions outside of work.  There are huge sections of various titles within the U.S. Code specifically about it relating to government employees of various types in various ways as one set of proof, and very old cases in the US as another.

    I am against PC nonsense, and for free speech rights.  I am also against employees being fired for actions outside of work generally - with reasonable and logical exceptions.   

    I get work calls outside of work.  I'm salaried and its part of the job.  The people I deal with aren't customer's of my company, but I see anyone I deal with in my official work role as a customer.  I would never think about verbally assaulting any of them.  And I certainly would fire her, or any employee, that was going out of her way to cause harm and lose to her employer.  

    I don't have free speech in my official role at work.  I doubt she is an hourly employee.  In this case, since she failed to either disengage, and didn't accept his blatant and humble attempt to deescalate the situation, but went out of her way to escalate it - what recourse does the company have?

    This isn't about free speech or free thinking or PC anything.  Its about a fanatical ideolog flying off the handles while biting the hand that feeds her, and that hand, reasonably and rationally, deciding to no longer feed her.  

    Its hard to make the argument you are anti-PC, pro-free speech, and pro-free thinking - while in the same breath saying a company should be forced to employee people directly harming the company.  She didn't get fired for going to some hate-cult gathering and doing hate-cult things outside of work.  This is directly related to work in a very public arena.  

    If she was fired for her political views and there wasn't a clear and direct link to work, and a clear and obvious breach of the universal basic rule of don't go nuts on a customer that doesn't deserve it that everyone everywhere has to live by, the majority of people would be defending her.  

    If you owned a business, and an employee went nuts of a customer that did nothing to deserve it, and this situation was very public and very visible, what would you do?  Just have no standards and say fuck it?  You wouldn't have a company for long, and the rest of your employees wouldn't have jobs.  But I'd be interested in hearing how you think this should have been handled, while keeping in mind your actions impact not just the crazy lady, but the rest of your employees, work culture and expectations, your angry community that pays the bills, etc.
    vandal5627Warhawke80Leiloniysquare21
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 15,900
    went nuts ?lmao umm yeah ok.

    A customer that did nothing?The very first thing they did was question her line of work in the game,that is like a customer walking into Wallmart and saying to the manager.."the managing in this store really sucks".
    I could take it one step further,try walking into a cop shop and telling them the cops in this city are terrible at their job and keep going on about it with more insults.I guarantee you that within a short time frame they might actually warn you of being arrested if you keep it up and actually forcefully escort you out of the cop shop.

    We have seen the exact same thing on this site,Bill was questioned about his comments on Destiny 2 and he sort of "went off"did he not?

    What i have seen the past 10 years or so is a "movement" people seem to need more and more leverage on insulting others and gaining some kind of power to take actions against others.Everything from so called cyber bullying to plain old bullying,people will take literally ANY kind of speech they don't like and call it bullying or trolling.It has basically become a society of spoiled brats and cry babies,you can only say something about me if it is pampering or telling me how great i am.
    PhryXasapisDakeruPonyBoyCurtisBekkrYashaXGaendricRain_Deathravenvandal5627Leiloniand 1 other.

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,465
    Wizardry said:
    went nuts ?lmao umm yeah ok.

    A customer that did nothing?The very first thing they did was question her line of work in the game,that is like a customer walking into Wallmart and saying to the manager.."the managing in this store really sucks".
    I could take it one step further,try walking into a cop shop and telling them the cops in this city are terrible at their job and keep going on about it with more insults.I guarantee you that within a short time frame they might actually warn you of being arrested if you keep it up and actually forcefully escort you out of the cop shop.

    We have seen the exact same thing on this site,Bill was questioned about his comments on Destiny 2 and he sort of "went off"did he not?

    What i have seen the past 10 years or so is a "movement" people seem to need more and more leverage on insulting others and gaining some kind of power to take actions against others.Everything from so called cyber bullying to plain old bullying,people will take literally ANY kind of speech they don't like and call it bullying or trolling.It has basically become a society of spoiled brats and cry babies,you can only say something about me if it is pampering or telling me how great i am.
    Probably one of the least relevent arguments made, from what you have said so far i would have to believe you have probably been reading something written by Kotaku etc. a respectable fount of information if there ever was, not. There have been numerous videos put out that contain more than a few nuggets of actual facts, but rather than list them all, here's the latest one from Layman gaming, it includes the statement from Mike Obrian of Arenanet.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVzASgiwkhs
    YashaXvandal5627ysquare21
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,187
    It's quite clear when somebody is completely uninformed about the situation (Wizardry in this case) and just makes a generic argument regarding the situation.
    YashaXvandal5627Warhawke80ysquare21
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,465
    Xasapis said:
    It's quite clear when somebody is completely uninformed about the situation (Wizardry in this case) and just makes a generic argument regarding the situation.
    There are conflicting stories going around at the moment, and some of the media sites are playing a little fast and loose with the truth, same ones that did during #gamergate rather unsurprisingly. I guess thats why i tend to use this website rather than theirs ;)
    YashaX
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 10,930
    edited July 2018
    SBFord said:
    Not offering a single opinion about this, but it's interesting and should offer some more fodder for the discussion:

    https://www.gameworkersunite.org/blog/statement-on-the-arenanet-firings

    Regardless of how one feels about Price's actions and regardless of where one draws the line between rudeness and exasperation in Price's tweets, the fact of the matter is that there is an entire spectrum of responses ArenaNet could have taken, but chose not to. The company could have done anything from pulling their employee aside and discussing their behavior, to giving them an internal reprimand and offered them additional training. Instead, ArenaNet, under the clearly inadequate leadership of Mike O'Brien, made the knee-jerk reaction to fire a member of their team. No dialogue, no nuance, no empathy.

    The unethical firings of Price and Fries, together with the reactions of toxic individuals inside and outside of the Guild Wars player community, have had a chilling effect across the industry. Countless workers have been harassed over social media and many are concerned about the implications of this event, some going so far as to delete their personal social media accounts in fear of similar retaliation from hostile players and bosses. ArenaNet has signaled to the entire industry that our job security can be, and almost certainly will be, imperiled by the most vitriolic and volatile players. This event carries echoes of Gamergate, and will only embolden harassers further.


    For me when people start talking about responding to an employees bad behaviour with "additional training" it means they want to brush the problem under the carpet.

    We can sum up AN's options rather more succinctly than above, they either kept it in house doing nothing about it, or fired someone and did something about it.

    To be honest when I think of how I feel about the cesspool that is Twitter, deleting social media accounts because of the implications of this case can be seen as a positive, not like the article which sees it as a negative. Having said that rather than responding to Twitter drama with your own drama, how about just making your Twitter private?

    I would also question why this is happening, and note that many professionals now have their social media following as effectively part of their CV. Entertainment is the frontrunner in this, but it appears in other areas like politics. So effectively they are putting their job online and any questioning of their work effects their work reputation. This is why I think we see some people giving over the top responses to any critique what so ever.

    Certainly it is down to the individual, they must be responsible, but I think social media is creating a situation where professionals feel a need to defend what is effectively their jobs.

    Leiloni

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  • marksteelemarksteele Member UncommonPosts: 59
    Wizardry said:
    went nuts ?lmao umm yeah ok.

    A customer that did nothing?The very first thing they did was question her line of work in the game,that is like a customer walking into Wallmart and saying to the manager.."the managing in this store really sucks".
    I could take it one step further,try walking into a cop shop and telling them the cops in this city are terrible at their job and keep going on about it with more insults.I guarantee you that within a short time frame they might actually warn you of being arrested if you keep it up and actually forcefully escort you out of the cop shop.

    We have seen the exact same thing on this site,Bill was questioned about his comments on Destiny 2 and he sort of "went off"did he not?

    What i have seen the past 10 years or so is a "movement" people seem to need more and more leverage on insulting others and gaining some kind of power to take actions against others.Everything from so called cyber bullying to plain old bullying,people will take literally ANY kind of speech they don't like and call it bullying or trolling.It has basically become a society of spoiled brats and cry babies,you can only say something about me if it is pampering or telling me how great i am.
    This analogy is entirely off-base. A better analogy would be the police speaking out about the problems with a new policing campaign and a community activist speaking at the same meeting offering ideas and criticism. The door was open for feedback the moment the police made a public statement. 

    It's not like DeroirGaming randomly went up and randomly broke out into a discussion about how Jessica is doing her job wrong. Jessica posted an opinion on a public medium, Deroir respectfully offered his opinion, Jessica responded with attacking him and turned it into a piece about how Deroir was only commenting because she was a women. 
  • BekkrBekkr Member UncommonPosts: 31
    JimWraith said:
    This was the first article I saw on the matter:

    http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2018/07/arenanet-mike-obrien-official-statement/

    Regardless of what actually happened this makes Mike O'Brien look like a total douche bag.
    That article is incredibly stupid. I think they were going for Onion-style satire, but they missed the mark by about as much as one could.

    |The problem with the youth of today is that one is no longer part of it. -Salvador Dali|

  • catofmanycatofmany Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    PhryDakeruAeanderElquinFrodoFraginsvandal5627ysquare21
  • Rain_DeathravenRain_Deathraven Member UncommonPosts: 81
    I just can't believe that respectful gaming sites like Kotaku , mmorpg ....try to defend this human being (if i say woman maybe some people will say i'm sexist)
    YashaXThreatlevel0Leiloniysquare21
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,465
    catofmany said:
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    Regardless of which side you favour, such a generic form of condemnation probably means we are all better off if you don't call yourself a gamer too. :o
    DakeruAeandervandal5627LeiloniTorvalblamo2000ysquare21
  • rastapastorrastapastor Member UncommonPosts: 187
    edited July 2018
    Are some of You people this deluded to think that this woman would send an apology to the customer she attacked ? 

    Srsly ppl get a grip and some reality to Your brains. Sending her off from work was the only good option here, by the business point of view. Sadly the other dev had to take part in it, but that was his fault. 

    Also from what i can gather the majority of ppl in game and hell, even the toxic community on the forums are pro this decision. What You see in those articles is the political correctness at its finest. Just a bullshit.

    FrodoFraginsblamo2000
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,187
    Phry said:
    catofmany said:
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    Regardless of which side you favour, such a generic form of condemnation probably means we are all better off if you don't call yourself a gamer too. :o
    For the same reason I don't call myself a Driver, while I drive for over 20 years, I also don't call myself a Gamer despite gaming quite a lot. It's a hobby, not a personality defining characteristic.

    Had I been a professional in the field, then I'd call myself a Gamer.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,252
    cronius77 said:
    Wow, so many people to reply to. So many people being triggered. One could be forgiven for thinking they were all loony lefty snowflakes, because we all know they're the enemies of free speech.

    Unfortunately it's getting on towards 1 am here in good old blighty and I want to see who else has abandoned Theresa the appeaser, the Brexit betrayer. So I'll say goodnight to all and don't have collective apoplexy.
    lol wow dude you took a debate about some girl popping off at the mouth and turned it completely into a red vs blue argument. If anyone's triggered here it's definitely you. I guess you agree with all the videos out there also of idiots using racial slurs towards people , I guess according to your thought process they should just tough it up and stand for that also right? This woman spewed off banter that made the company look bad if they didn't do anything about it. You turned this into some political correctness argument that doesn't exist. What it boils down to is when you disrespect others on social media you can get canned. It's no different than teachers being fired for drunk pics or talking trash on their facebooks. If you have a high profile job which is viral , you have to use your judgement on what you post.
    Got it in one. Yes, I think they should suck it up. It's words not a smack in the mouth. And it's not red vs blue, at least not in my opinion. You either believe in free speech or you oppose it, regardless of where you fall on the political compass.

    I'm neither red nor blue according to the last result I had on a political compass test. I'm very much "in the middle".

    In yet another example used by someone, why the fuck should a teacher get fired for being drunk? So what if he was on facebook. What if he never took the photo, what if it was his mates? He's never allowed to get shitfaced just because he's a teacher?

    The world has gone mad, I tell you.
    No, it's the same it's always been.  You just, apparently, can't come to grips with reality.

    You have a warped sense of what free speech even is, I'd suggest doing some research.
    YashaXElquinvandal5627ysquare21

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,465
    Xasapis said:
    Phry said:
    catofmany said:
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    Regardless of which side you favour, such a generic form of condemnation probably means we are all better off if you don't call yourself a gamer too. :o
    For the same reason I don't call myself a Driver, while I drive for over 20 years, I also don't call myself a Gamer despite gaming quite a lot. It's a hobby, not a personality defining characteristic.

    Had I been a professional in the field, then I'd call myself a Gamer.
    As someone who has driven as a profession, although only up to class 2 vehicles (hgv) and on a daily basis because living in the countryside you kind of need to be able to drive, i don't consider myself to be a driver, its just something i did as a job once, i do consider myself to be a gamer though, because its my hobby and something i do have a deep interest in.
    You can think of yourself as being or not being whatever you want, its just an opinion either way, others might not agree with you but that is their opinion and they are just as entitled to them as you are to yours.
    Me i am proud to be a gamer and i make no apology for it, nor feel the need to, if someone doesn't want to call themselves a gamer and blanket condemns others for being one, well there is a word for that too. :/  
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  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,187
    Oh, I definitely don't make apologies for it. When people ask about my hobbies, this is my primary one. I just don't overly think about it, it's just something I do in my free time. In fact, I don't watch TV at all any more.

    Doing a casual search regarding number of drivers and number of gamers, it's no surprise to see that they number 1.2 billion and 1.8 billion respectively.

  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 470
    edited July 2018
    We live in a world where merely saying something is enough to get you burned at the stake.  

    If this was 10 years ago, none of this would even be news-worthy.  

    But the time is ripe to rip everyone a new one and if you don't, you will get ripped a new one for not ripping someone a new one.

    That's the really sad commentary here... that people are so easy to join in on things they really know utterly nothing about just because they can and it's cool to do so.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,954
    edited July 2018
    Sorry Bill. You picked the wrong side of this argument. Too many other IP's are being appropriated from their original audiences and too many ****gates are going on all because social justice warriors force their agenda upon everyone who merely want drama free and quality products. Diversity arises through variety of product and not through appropriation.

    ArenaNet clearly sees how certain multi-billion dollar IPs are being destroyed and losing their core audience along with hemorrhaging earnings because of it. They had to do this. They had to set a precedence. The paying customer has to be respected and employees cannot force their own political agenda not shared by their employer.

    SJWs are a cancer within profit based industries. They insult their audience (i.e. Marvel, LucasFilm) through social media and tell them if they don't like their "art", they can stop buying it. They attack anyone against their narrative even if it's a valid argument (this is exactly what happened here), force their own agenda even if not relevant and play the victim card and even go so far as to create fictitious or highly exaggerated stories of damsels in distress. This has been repeated across each and every industry they have gotten their hands into.

    The ONLY outcome with allowing this sort of hate speech to continue (oh the irony) is to nip it in the bud IMMEDIATELY or else the company will face titanic losses and audience backlash much like LucasFilm is currently facing.

    The stakes are far greater than you make it out to be Bill. The head of ArenaNet may very well be an asshole in his own right but at least he sees the true impact of doing nothing. Customers feel powerless these days. They feel abused and manipulated on multiple entertainment industry fronts. As others have said, if nearly ANY NORMAL employee in ANY NORMAL company would have done this they too would have been instantly fired. There is no defending those 2 (but I direct most of it toward Jessica Price). Price had a long history of it.

    The bigger picture here is that this is so fucking widespread that it is cultural now. IP appropriation is real. Organized SJW attacks using social AND mainstream media is real. Disseminating fictional information to support political agendas within non-political industries is real. Anyone clueless to this only has to put some level minded and intelligent research into the current state of Marvel comics (Lord help the movies moving forward), LucasFilm and IPs like Star Wars and Star Trek to see their attempts to completely abandon their canon, historical cultural impact and audiences in favor of agenda based political ideals ... and frankly really shitty story telling that elevates women by deconstructing men.

    ArenaNet had their eyes open enough to see it and I Goddamn fucking applaud them for it. The term "Get WOKE. Go BROKE!" is true, and ArenaNet bloody knows it.
    Post edited by Tamanous on
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  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 3,933
    edited July 2018
    catofmany said:
    Wow, the responses here are just...

    There is a reason i don't call myself a gamer. And this just reeks of it.
    Just what? Sensible? In tune with reality? 

    There are a few people who have taken it too far in the direction that we all know (based on your posting history) that you are labeling us, but most of the posters here have been entirely reasonable. 
    ElquinPhryTorval
  • TwinTrickTwinTrick Member CommonPosts: 2
    From admitting you don't know, to suspecting you do know.

    "I don’t know what she goes through day in, day out, just to be a part of this industry. I highly expect she puts up with a lot more shit than most of her male counterparts."

    Interestingly, you don't use this measurement for ArenaNet?

    "She’s defending her work, just not in the best or most customer-facing way."

    You give the employee every excuse, and the company that defends the idea of cooperation is criticized for blundering? Is this one of those "Help, I'm being repressed!" pieces? ArenaNet seems to distance itself from toxic entitlement.
    YashaXLeiloniblamo2000ysquare21
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 3,933
    edited July 2018
    Tamanous said:
    Sorry Bill. You picked the wrong side of this argument. Too many other IP's are being appropriated from their original audiences and too many XXXgates are going on all because social justice warriors force their agenda upon everyone who merely want drama free and quality products. Diversity arises through variety of product and not through appropriation.

    ArenaNet clearly sees how certain multi-billion dollar IPs are being destroyed and losing their core audience along with hemorrhaging earnings because of it. They had to do this. They had to set a precedence. The paying customer has to be respected and employees cannot force their own political agenda not shared by their employer.

    SJWs are a cancer within profit based industries. They insult their audience (i.e. Marvel, LucasFilm) through social media and tell them if they don't like their "art", they can stop buying it. They attack anyone against their narrative even if it's a valid argument (this is exactly what happened here), force their own agenda even if not relevant and play the victim card and even go so far as to create fictitious or highly exaggerated stories of damsels in distress. This has been repeated across each and every industry they have gotten their hands into.

    The ONLY outcome with allowing this sort of hate speech to continue (oh the irony) is to nip it in the bud IMMEDIATELY or else the company will face titanic losses and audience backlash much like LucasFilm is currently facing.

    The stakes are far greater than you make it out to be Bill. The head of ArenaNet may very well be an asshole in his own right but at least he sees the true impact of doing nothing. Customers feel powerless these days. They feel abused and manipulated on multiple entertainment industry fronts. As others have said, if nearly ANY NORMAL employee in ANY NORMAL company would have done this they too would have been instantly fired. There is no defending those 2 (but I direct most of it toward Jessica Price). Price had a long history of it.

    The bigger picture here is that this is so fucking widespread that it is cultural now. IP appropriation is real. Organized SJW attacks using social AND mainstream media is real. Disseminating fictional information to support political agendas within non-political industries is real. Anyone clueless to this only has to put some level minded and intelligent research into the current state of Marvel comics (Lord help the movies moving forward), LucasFilm and IPs like Star Wars and Star Trek to see their attempts to completely abandon their canon, historical cultural impact and audiences in favor of agenda based political ideals ... and frankly really shitty story telling that elevates women by deconstructing men.

    ArenaNet had their eyes open enough to see it and I Goddamn fucking applaud them for it. The term "Get WOKE. Go BROKE!" is true, and ArenaNet bloody knows it.
    I'm not even going to touch the whole social justice issue with a ten foot pole here, but I will give my two cents on the reality I see.

    Arenanet is not, has never been, and will not ever be "woke." They are not, as you seem to believe, a conservative company by any means. In fact, they are a liberal company, if anything. More importantly, they are simply a company that respects their customers.

    With one hand, they show respect for their left-leaning and LGBT customers by recognizing community run pride events and including LGBT NPC's, including ones as prominent as Caithe, Faolain, Marjory, and Kasmeer.

    With the other hand, they show all customers that, regardless of political stance, they cannot tolerate two of their own openly disrespecting customers.

    Let's not dilute the conversation by turning this into a political issue. It isn't one. It's a matter of community relations, basic business practice, and nothing else.
    Post edited by Aeander on
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  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,090
    edited July 2018

    Zenislav said:

    Woman is psycho that brings her own personal agenda and political opinions where she should not. What is deal with all this white knighting? Would media be this vocal if man was fired for similar reasons?



    I doubt most would be, to be honest. Though with regards to Mr. Bill Murphy, I do believe he would write the same article as the crux of it (from what I gathered) was a mixture of employee morale, passion and potentially scaring other developers on the time to the point where it may feel like a hostile environment for them.  The article also mentioned that it ignores unknown variables that aren't made public to us and bases information on what we know.

    The assertion that it is a loss for the game as a whole is also correct, in my opinion. It's something I said in a past post. Two experienced developers are gone now, and that will only hurt going forward. Even if they're quickly replaced, it takes time to acclimate new employees to the way you do things and how to work with your systems. Not to mention that it feels like part of the soul of Guild Wars is gone now that a senior GW1 developer was caught in the crossfires.

    That said, I do not think the above is reason enough to with-hold firing someone that is either toxic or has misrepresented you in serious ways. Stress or not, there are other avenues and stances and even ways to express maturity that she could have taken. There should be no immunity for her behavior as that will also send the wrong message that you're able to conduct yourself in an immature manner and say horrible things while stating you work for Arenanet. Many people sign social media contracts and go through orientations in workplaces now just for this specific reason, and violation of such results in what we saw in this situation.

    Though the end quote makes a good implication that immunity to such behavior may actually exist if you're at the top of the food chain. Which is true with most companies in general. The people at the bottom get blamed and fired even for the incompetence of the higher ups (not to say this situation is like that, but just as a matter of fact). My assertion above is that no-one should be immune. Perhaps different degrees, as a shake up at the higher levels may do a lot of harm initially, but as a whole sometimes its needed for the long term health of a company.

    I don't believe Fries' firing was justified. My opinion is Price should have been fired a long time ago with what she has said in the past and what stories I've been hearing about her toxic behavior while interacting with others. It's said she was fired from her last job for the exact same thing -- and people wonder why ANet hired her in the first place. Which leads me to a sort of "No Tolerance" philosophy. If they knew she was trouble and potentially gave her warnings or tolerated things because it didn't cause a big ruckus in the community (Similar to how someone else got fired for celebrating someone's death, but she didn't because nobody made note of it), then she should have been gone at the first sign that she hadn't changed her way. The fact that she didn't was a mistake, and was likely because they were thinking about the moral of the employees. Though now that escalated to the point where morale really took a nose dive and they're all potential targets of future zeal.

    We don't know how many warnings she was given or anything like that.

    But this, in general and in my opinion, is what happens when you're a weak leader. Second chances are fine. Warnings are fine. But sometimes you have to put your foot down before the inevitable happens and trouble makers cause a huge PR disaster like this. Fries himself should have been put on suspension in this case as a hard handed move to someone that barely did anything. Though I have suspected before that it was probably a package deal due to many of the issues at hand, such as the topic of sexism being brought up when it shouldn't have. Again, weak leadership and just trying to please the masses in a quick to make judgment that has long lasting implications.

    She (Price) could have easily made an account that no one knows her on to speak on her own terms. But once you put your name out there as well as your company, you represent them. You're free to say what you want, but you also have to deal with the consequences of such when anonymity is gone.

    To quote Farcry:  "Do you know the definition of insanity?"

    Expecting someone that celebrates the death of people and constantly speaks to others in a toxic manner to not inevitably cause a PR nightmare.  Who also frequently blocks people that disagree with them and states that they don't care about their opinion.  I'm getting the meme of a person in a burning building, drinking tea, while saying "This is fine." in my head.  Just saying to yourself that they'll calm themselves down, change their ways by themselves and definitely won't be the cause of future trouble with how sensitive the internet can be nowadays.
    Arglebargle
    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
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