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Guild Wars 2 - Bill Murphy - ArenaNet and the Wisdom of Not Doing Anything - MMORPG.com

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Aori said:
    I think the only ones believing an internet mob can get someone fired aren't really paying attention to anything but this particular instance to build that narrative, and ignoring or downplaying the facts of Price's behavior to do so.
    Maybe we've been looking at this all wrong, Mike O'Brien, MOB, fired, omg... she was really fired by a MOB! She wasn't lying!

    :joy:
    Damn, you're right.  I've been reading this all wrong....
    Octagon7711Rain_Deathraven

    image
  • Warhawke80Warhawke80 Member UncommonPosts: 184
    edited July 2018
    The hot mess with 1,000 legs......which will never ever die.

    @BillMurphy I get playing devils advocate, or even trying to see both sides, but as I have said before Price could not even keep her job when her boss was Lisa Freaking Stevens at Piazo, and she literally is the epitome of progressive.

    Talent and gender not withstanding, Price is more hung up on hyperbolic asinine expressions like "speaking truth to power"  and swinging back at those people who aren't even punching at her, that she has loss any semblance of credibility or professionalism, and Fries honestly came off like a Arrogant tool for his part which he tried to scrub.

    They were both cancerous, they both had to go.

    And as for Mike, my previous interactions with him, just showed him to be a passionate yet level headed game designer that wants a diverse company, but humans in general have a tendency to take advantage of any Camelotesque concept, in other words their is always someone with emotional, mental, or Napoleonic issues that tries to ruin it, further any time anyone tries to be completely diverse or completely conservative terrible things happen. The larger issue is that, centrism no longer exists in our society.  

    Finally, very few ex employees will ever have anything good to say about someone they no longer work with, and the largest issue with modern day development is it's a bonfire of the vanities.

    I do know that yes Mike has/had a huge vision for GW2, and has been plagued  by "You can't do that" from developers who talk a good game but really can't share any other vision but their own and " That isn't PC enough." by people who are constantly moving the goal post of what progressive means closer and closer to an authoritarian place, which is just as bad as the old boy circles of yesteryear.  

    The only thing I think Mike should have done differently was in the announcement, he simply should have said the issue has been addressed internally instead of announcing their terminations, but emotions were probably high and he was right Price did ruin a lot.




    Caffynated
  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 90
    I don´t get why gaming media is portraying JP as a victim in this case, she is the perpetrator. Peter i guess was collateral damage, he was only stupid enough to fall for JP´s gender nonsense. But we all don´t know what happened behind closed doors, this might have been the end of something going on for a long time.
    BillMurphyWarhawke80YashaXJeffSpicoliJeleenaCaffynatedThahar
  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 379
    So if I was wearing my place of works attire, and out side of the store on the side walk and you came up to me and asked me a respectful question, and I turned around and Mocked you and belittled you and acted like a grade A Asshole, would I not be subject to you going into the store and informing my employer what I did and being held accountable, even if i am not on the clock? She put her place of work on her Twitter account, she talked about work on her twitter account, if she cant take civil discussion and she mocks and calls her companies customers asshats she doesn't deserve to be employed there anymore.
    Caffynated
  • Reyone1Reyone1 Member CommonPosts: 8
    Treat people the way you want to be treated. Can you imagine the Sh*t storm of a thread that would have turned into if Derior lashed out like a real, "rando asshat" instead of politely standing down?
    Everything the light touches is our kingdom.
  • etharnetharn Member UncommonPosts: 152
    I really dont understand why this is blowing up so big. From what I've been reading and watching from many media outlets the lady went nuts over simple reply on twitter with someone coming to the rescue cause them to get fired as well. You just don't attack your customers no matter how much you despise them haha.

    Some of the replies the lady said made herself look like she's the greatest talent there is with development and what we as customers or players giving feedback into a game we may love to play doesnt matter or they think since we dont know how the development side works we can say anything about it. Just dumb thinking imo. "Dont tell me how to do my job!" lol.

    I'm confused in what this site is even supporting. If you are supporting the woman that lashed out then shame on you. Absolutely no reason for a employee to lash out the way she did and bring politics into something unrelated to reply she received.
    Warhawke80YashaX

    A man who fears nothing is a man who loves nothing; and if you love nothing, what joy is there in your life?

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member RarePosts: 1,942


    Worth a watch. Sums up my feelings perfectly. 
    YashaXhalfmysticAoriMadFrenchieThahar

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,712
    So the tl;dr of the article is that Mike O'Brien is the real villain in this story?
    Sorry, I'm not buying it.
    Warhawke80YashaXhalfmysticJeleenasimsalabim77CaffynatedThahar
    Harbinger of Fools
  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited July 2018
    A lot of people have been fired from a lot of gaming companies and most of them men (statistically it is undestandable).
    It just happen that this time a women was fired that mentioned "mansplaining" and all gaming outlets are outraged and astonished.

    Nothing changed from gamergate. Instead of talking about games they are talking about social justice and feminism - just repacked and with spinning a narrative.

    It is pretty convenient that in this case also a man was fired so they can say: see? both were unjustly fired. What a unpartial and correct person I am. Except they didnt move a finger when hundred others were fired because of bad pr. Integrity ftw

    YOU gaming "journalists", editors etc are not moral authorities you cannot teach me, us what is moral and what is not moral, who should be fired and who should not be fired or which internal policies should a private company use. You can at best be experts in games... remember... games?
    Warhawke80Caffynated
  • halfmystichalfmystic Member RarePosts: 254
    edited July 2018
    It's a joke that this is even a PR 'blunder'. This writer simply took it to far after a well known content creator for GW2 simply and POLITELY retorted to her comment. She FLEW off the handles and then continued to belittle and blame men for all the things wrong with the world of development.

    If I make a comment that's sexist/racist that goes against my work-place policy and if I was a public facing figure who BLANTANTLY put on my twitter that I worked for that place, you're god damn right I would have been fired.

    It's complete horse-shit and I am *so* happy Arenanet made an example of both her and the white knight that tried to defend her.

    After she sent e-mails to all these new outlets, I felt like it not only shot her credibility, but also damaged the argument that females are treated so terribly in the devops work-place. People like her make women look BAD, not good. She's not bringing a discussion to female workplace displacement, but hurting it.


    What do you think employers are going to do? Quickly hire MORE females that are "passionate" about female rights? Hell no. Private companies are going to be even worse now.

    Thanks for nothing you air-head, I hope you never find another job in game development again.
    Caffynated
  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,753
    I don´t get why gaming media is portraying JP as a victim in this case, she is the perpetrator. Peter i guess was collateral damage, he was only stupid enough to fall for JP´s gender nonsense. But we all don´t know what happened behind closed doors, this might have been the end of something going on for a long time.
    Listen it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this woman was absolute nightmare to work with. Most people that are politically obsessed are. They find and make drama where there is none,  If you are reading this and scratching your head as to "what the hell is this guy talking about" then you might be the person in the workplace that is driving others mad with your constant political nonsense.


      And as far as "getting" why gaming media ie Game journalist's are being so one sided, well thats a topic i unfortunately can't go into or i will probably receive my 3rd warning ie ban 
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • Darkh1Darkh1 Member CommonPosts: 1
    edited July 2018
    I don't understand, what's so complicated on this topic.
    No company will allow an employee to attack a customer for no reason. Because he pays the bills, the pay checks, etc.
    Not in the gaming industry. Not in the car industry. Not in any other industry.
    Not in America. Not in Europe. Not somewhere else in the world.
    If an employee attacks a customer, she or he will be fired. Immidiatly.
    There is no guideline needed for this. It's a simple business rule.
    And it has nothing to do with social media. If an employee of a supermarket attacks a customer in the market with his fist for no reason, he will be fired too. Immidiatly.
    For social media: If you're using your private twitter account, you can do what you want.
    But if you put work related stuff on your tweets, you act as an employee of your company. Everything you do as an employee will relate to your company. The good and the bad. And you have to face the consequences of your doing.
    JeffSpicoliSovrathMakadusCaffynatedThahar
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    Being a women I think there is a lot more damage done to keep playing the gender card when it has nothing to do with it. It is a disservice to women who actually suffer from gender discrimination at work and it simply trivializes the issue if you keep crying wolf.
    Warhawke80DakeruJeffSpicolilahnmirIselinJeleenan3v3rriv3rMadFrenchiedruezMakadusand 2 others.
    image
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,673
    cheyane said:
    Being a women I think there is a lot more damage done to keep playing the gender card when it has nothing to do with it. It is a disservice to women who actually suffer from gender discrimination at work and it simply trivializes the issue if you keep crying wolf.
    I couldn't agree more, it takes away from the real issues of which there are plenty. Infuriating.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,753
    cheyane said:
    Being a women I think there is a lot more damage done to keep playing the gender card when it has nothing to do with it. It is a disservice to women who actually suffer from gender discrimination at work and it simply trivializes the issue if you keep crying wolf.
    I have to tell you it so refreshing to hear you say that and although i don't know you personally i do recognize your avatar as i visit this site quite frequently and now have a whole other respect for you.
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • BeyornBeyorn Member UncommonPosts: 343

    I cant figure out why the gaming media is jumping on her bandwagon.  She is a vile toxic person.  You can see from her post history what type of person she is.  Derior just wanted to engage in some back and forth about the topic.  I can’t believe you guys are defending her.  Anyone who is glad someone died of cancer, even if you didn’t agree with them, is sad, tragic, and a pathetic human being.  I could care less what is between her legs ;P.






  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,289
    edited July 2018
    I'm with the group choosing to say the firing had to be done. Developers are part of a team, even if they are a leader. They shouldn't be treated like they are invaluable regardless of what concepts/ideas they've brought over the years. Besides, its not like this was their first rodeo or anything. This is just how everything works in life, regardless of where. The higher the position, the lightly the spot-light will shine on whoever is there. That individual becomes a face and thus their actions will reflect whoever they work for. Keeping even just one person on isn't worth the berating they would overall encounter for it, regardless of the circumstance. If someone is "stressed" over the attention in a position like that, they have an increased chance of getting "what they want" by handling issues privately vs a Freudian slip on a public platform. Of course Anet didn't get involved because they wanted to. As other people have said, if they didn't then they would get more attention by defending such behavior and with how shady NCSoft ultimately is, they dont want EA levels of attention by being associated with a branch that condones such behavior especially with GW2 being their second lowest global earner over the last year (probably changed some since the last expansion). Its the unfortunate reality in this life that everyone is expendable and loyalty has conditions.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,497
    Darkh1 said:
    I don't understand, what's so complicated on this topic.
    No company will allow an employee to attack a customer for no reason. Because he pays the bills, the pay checks, etc.
    Not in the gaming industry. Not in the car industry. Not in any other industry.
    Not in America. Not in Europe. Not somewhere else in the world.
    If an employee attacks a customer, she or he will be fired. Immidiatly.
    There is no guideline needed for this. It's a simple business rule.
    And it has nothing to do with social media. If an employee of a supermarket attacks a customer in the market with his fist for no reason, he will be fired too. Immidiatly.
    For social media: If you're using your private twitter account, you can do what you want.
    But if you put work related stuff on your tweets, you act as an employee of your company. Everything you do as an employee will relate to your company. The good and the bad. And you have to face the consequences of your doing.
    Welcome to the boards!

    I wish it could have been in a thread better for gaming than this fracas, but that's how things go. :)

     25 Agrees

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited July 2018
    Aeander said:
    This shouldn't even be controversial. The fastest way to get fired at any company is to disrespect customers. That is what JP did. That is why she was fired. End of story.
    I don't think it's that simple in this case. And then why was Fries fired? He was, for all I can surmise, loved by both fans and AN employees. Just to CYA and not get a law-suit for discrimination perhaps? The whole thing stinks, and has potential implications for devs at all companies moving forward. 

    Bullshit Bill. The only thing that stinks is the gaming media's inability to take what these people did at face value, due to the main perpetrator in question being a woman. "Oh well maybe she had some ulterior motive for being an asshole..." Yeah you know I'm sure every asshole in the world believes that about themselves. That in no way changes the fact its wrong, and that there are serious consequences about publicly behaving like, and I can't use this term enough here, an ASSHOLE.

    Why was Fries fired? He jumped in and not only supported JP's off base and totally nasty behavior, he also reinforced JP's opinion that fans are contemptibly beneath being worthy to give feedback to the company. Do you seriously not understand what a dick move that was?
    I can't argue with this, either.

    However, if I were in that position, depending upon the specific content of Fries' comments, I would have considered a lesser reprimand.  Specifically (and I know, hindsight is 20/20) considering MO is getting grilled as allowing gender roles to color his decision anyways.  If Fries wasn't confrontational with customers as Price was (though I get the feeling he may have been from those who say they saw his comments), and he didn't have an internal record of corrective action being needed, I think a lesser punishment would've been more appropriate.

    But again, I didn't get to read the tweets that have, apparently, now been deleted.  Their content would dictate a lot in how the company should (and seemingly did) react.
    Oh my paws and whiskers, you little scamps and your lack of training in Google Fu. HERE are the deleted tweets.

    Now were his comments by themselves excessively rude? No not really. But what he actually did by defending Price's dickhead behavior was to send a double barreled "fuck you", to Deroir and any other fan who might have taken offense, making himself just as culpable of bad behavior as Price.
    I'm conflicted.  On the one hand, I can see what you're saying here.  On the other, if Fries had no previous instances of insubordination, I feel like ending his career might've been a strong move somewhat spurred by fears that allowing him to continue working there would've only fueled the gender bias fantasy Price has been pushing about the situation and gave it false legitimacy in the eyes of many...  That's a much tougher call to make than the handling of Price herself.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on

    image
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    I'm on the fence.

    Seems like an overblown reaction to what should be a public apology and private reprimand of a staff member who spoke out of place on a personal account, thus reflecting poorly on the company.

    Probably a lot more behind the scenes, possibly this was a "last straw" for her as others have said.

    Maybe other guy was also on his last legs and the public endorsement was warned behind closed doors.

    Lots of failure in leadership here, which can only be blamed on the ANET management.

    On the flip side, can't allow the mob (players) to run the company.

    Mob rule is never good. Pitchforks and protests are rarely based on reality, but instead on emotion and often fear.

    ANET should have done a better job controlling the situation.

    The mobs decision/opinion can often be wrong, as they tend to not have all the facts, don't understand the limitations, the background information, etc. the same as an insider would.

    But submission to authority is also a logical error.

    Only solvable via proper dialogue, which obv didn't happen here.
    BillMurphyTorval
  • MagikarpsGhostMagikarpsGhost Member UncommonPosts: 654
    Honestly her twitter feed is a mess. I have a friend who is a teacher, she is "under investigation" because a SINGLE parent complained about a tweet that did not even pertain to anything other then a kitten she rescued and sadly had to have it put down. She runs a rescue and posted it UNDER HER RESCUE ACCOUNT. Not the school is out to get her fired over this. Honestly in the devs case who got fired, good its about freaking time someone shut her the hell up. But That is not always the case. This is just evidence to be careful what you post.

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  • Asch126Asch126 Member RarePosts: 500
    "She’s fervently disagreeing with people on her job and capabilities."

    You missed the part where she goes on sexist rants constantly huh. Yet another gaming website that her stupidity has gotten to.
    Caffynated
  • MakadusMakadus Member CommonPosts: 1
    Equality seems to be one of the issues here. You cuss and/or tell off a customer and your boss finds out, you get fired. No matter what, that goes equally for everyone. All this pondering of the character or correctness of others, such as "MO" while possibly accurate, has nothing to do with the event that happened and is a slippery slope as it is conjecture. Moral of story do not cuss at the people paying you, no matter who you think you are or who you think they are.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,629
    First of all her over reaction to the fan's response to her Twitter article was way over the top. He wasn't even being particularly critical of what she wrote and his comment was both respectful and polite. He may very well have been introducing something to the conversation that was so basic to a professional writer that it seemed not worth even discussing. But she could have either ignored it or responded with an equally polite dismissal of the point.

    But she didn't. She went off on him in a very assholish way without the slightest provocation. She then followed that up with many statements doubling-down and revealing a contempt about what the great unwashed has to say and giving the impression that this is how the developers really feel about fan feedback. That IMO, was the firing offense: revealing the culture of contempt for your customers that is one of the dirty little secrets in the industry.

    That this ivory tower or bunker mentality exists in industries when talking internally about what their customers criticize is pretty well universal but it is also totally contrary to the feel-good PR they pump out where they bend over backwards to pretend that the opposite is true. "We listen to our customers and we're proud of it" is how they want to be perceived. It's a public image vs. private reality thing and she made it all too clear that contempt for customer feedback is the norm not the exception. That's a peek behind the curtain no business ever wants to reveal. She did, so they fired her.

    IMO any PR conscious boss would have done the same for the sake of PR and preserving the myth that they are a customer first business.

    I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing. Nor am I saying that it is wrong to be dismissive of customer feedback since you know so much more about the internals of any issue they comment on than they do. But hell, in what world is it OK to reveal that deep seated contempt for your customers publicly?

    Just think about it. In your own work lives - whatever you do - you know for a fact that you know what you're doing much more than your customers do and it's actually pretty rare to get some useful feedback from them. How often do you tell your customers that? And if you do it often, how long did your business last?

    Yes, firing her is definitely a PR move to appease fans but I get why it happened and I'm surprised that so many seem to be confused about why she was fired: it's a gigantic issue to try to maintain the illusion of respect for customers at all cost.

    Also... this is also about as far away from being a "women in gaming" issue as is possible to get. This was a developer of any sex acting like an asshole toward fans of the game without provocation very publicly.


    MisterZebubAoriTorval
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  • DystopiqDystopiq Member UncommonPosts: 3
    edited July 2018
    "And it is her personal Twitter, so she should be allowed to say what she feels in that space. But as of this writing, her profile still states she’s part of the ANet team, and that means her actions reflect on the company."

    Bingo. You represent the company you work for whether you like it or not. Mike handled this professionally. She keeps giving interviews crapping all over Anet and Mike while playing the victim. She's digging herself a very deep hole.
    Ridelynn
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