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ESO combat

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
in Elder Scrolls Online
i never could find much liking in the ESO combat system..

until.... i did some research...

there is definately some skill in the combat..
weaving light and heavy attacks into your rotation
knowing how and when to cancel annimations
switching skillbars on the fly
knowing how and when to counterattack
offcourse the dodging..

i used to just stand there and use my skillbars skills just like on wow or other Mmo’s
and yes thats kinda slow and boring
but now i have found the true depth in the system, and i love it, i really do..

actually the combat has grown so much on me over the past 2 months that it is currently on top of my list for all MMO’s
strange isn’t it, how with a few small online lessons, the feeling totally changed..
it actually feels like real combat now to me.. lots of reactional things to do..
and i think skill really sets the good players apart..

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

GdemamiOctagon7711Viper482
«1

Comments

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    The game really shines in group content when HA weaving is a necessity because the mobs are much tougher and fights last much longer.

    Role differentiation is prominent and frequent synergy use (especially now that synergies are off the GDC) becomes a standard part of your rotation adding an important mechanic you never see in solo play.

    If you're not running dungeons you're missing out on some of the best combat.
    MadFrenchie
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    I'd say anything involving a lightning staff has a bit more wiggle room in most situations. So rolling a sorc or something might be more up your ally and has a good skill ceiling without real resource management, but you're usually weaving to build your ultimate faster and spamming it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Albatroes said:
    I'd say anything involving a lightning staff has a bit more wiggle room in most situations. So rolling a sorc or something might be more up your ally and has a good skill ceiling without real resource management, but you're usually weaving to build your ultimate faster and spamming it.
    It's still HA weaving with a lightning or resto staff but yes, I do find it much more...umm... "organic" to HA weave with those even though in fact, it takes just as long as HA weaving with any of the other weapons that instead go through a wind-up/release animation cycle and it prevents you from using your high damage skills just as long.

    IMO it's a psychological thing because it's a channeled attack with several damage pulses so you feel like something is happening while using it whereas all the other weapons feel more like a pause than an active component of the fight.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    Iselin said:
    Albatroes said:
    I'd say anything involving a lightning staff has a bit more wiggle room in most situations. So rolling a sorc or something might be more up your ally and has a good skill ceiling without real resource management, but you're usually weaving to build your ultimate faster and spamming it.
    It's still HA weaving with a lightning or resto staff but yes, I do find it much more...umm... "organic" to HA weave with those even though in fact, it takes just as long as HA weaving with any of the other weapons that instead go through a wind-up/release animation cycle and it prevents you from using your high damage skills just as long.

    IMO it's a psychological thing because it's a channeled attack with several damage pulses so you feel like something is happening while using it whereas all the other weapons feel more like a pause than an active component of the fight.
    Yea on your second line, that's why I feel its a good transition weapon (both lightning/resto staff) for this game since the OP says he's more used to just standing and casting without the whole deal. Personally, this has been the only style of play I've actually liked in ESO after playing on and off for a year or so, which I'm honestly fine with in the long run. I like running templar because even as magicka you can still get a melee-esqe feel if you want or be ranged with the transition not really feeling awkward (though can be pretty magic-starved without the right gear). A lot of games do depend on the class, like in B&S I dont really care for playing for any of the melee classes and probably would've outright quit for only having 2 ranged classes at the time but more classes were added as well as styles of play which can be quite varied depending on the class. I felt the same way with Tera's combat system and oddly enough ended up enjoying the sorcerer rework they did last year compared to the other classes (gunner is still okay but kind of feels off for some reason to me now). So OP, my advice is just research a few builds on youtube or somewhere to actually see how they are in action and try from there before just deciding to quit. As was said before, most stuff in the game be done with almost any set up, its just when you transition into certain veteran dungeons and trials is when you need to pay attention to what you're doing. I'd still recommend magic sorc if you're wanting to approach the game a bit more since it has insane amounts of utility for solo and can be quite tanky with certain skills.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Someone missed my point..

    i am very happy with my current build
    and the playstyle of eso combat in general..


    why should i invest more time investing youtube vids instead of actually playing the game?
    DaemonweaverMikehaGdemamiHariken

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,955
    edited April 2018
    I could never understand all the negative reaction to the combat in ESO. It was not ground-breaking, but it was decent enough. What I would like to see is such posters tell us why it is other MMOs do it so much better.

    Edit: I understood that the OP was not saying that, but he made me think back to threads where posters go on about it.
    Post edited by Scot on
    YashaX
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Scot said:
    I could never understand all the negative reaction to the combat in ESO. It was not ground-breaking, but it was decent enough. What I would like to see is such posters tell us why it is other MMOs do it so much better.
    Or better yet, which other MMOs do it better as well as their max level of familiarity with ESO.

    ESO combat has a rhythm that is partly dependent on you skill build, weapon choice and level of familiarity with the game. And I can say with confidence, since I have played all the classes with umpteen different builds each to max level, that some feel better and more natural to me than others. There's very much a personal playing style thing at work here as well as a reaction to different types of content that get you out of your comfort zone and force you to rethink your builds.

    For example the generic solo and grinding AOE-heavy PVE style just does not work in PVP where you want to play a burst game doing as much single target damage just as quick as you can.

    I have my own gripes about the game but the feel of combat ain't one of them.
    ScotBruceYeeGdemamiJeleena
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I could never understand all the negative reaction to the combat in ESO. It was not ground-breaking, but it was decent enough. What I would like to see is such posters tell us why it is other MMOs do it so much better.


    For example the generic solo and grinding AOE-heavy PVE style just does not work in PVP where you want to play a burst game doing as much single target damage just as quick as you can.

    I think this can be said for most mmo's that try to shoehorn PvE and PvP in the same game,they require two totally different mindsets and playstyles.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    I've never PvP'd in this game and don't plan to but I enjoy the PVE combat.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    pantaro said:
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I could never understand all the negative reaction to the combat in ESO. It was not ground-breaking, but it was decent enough. What I would like to see is such posters tell us why it is other MMOs do it so much better.


    For example the generic solo and grinding AOE-heavy PVE style just does not work in PVP where you want to play a burst game doing as much single target damage just as quick as you can.

    I think this can be said for most mmo's that try to shoehorn PvE and PvP in the same game,they require two totally different mindsets and playstyles.
    Yeah, that's true to an extent but the feel of it is quite different in ESO compared to most other MMOs I've played where you might use different gear and different abilities but the flow of combat still feels relatively the same.

    I think it's because of the way you weave weapon attacks in ESO but in most other MMO combat the basic attacks are automated and you're just focusing on ability rotation and cool downs and those rotations feel very similar whether you're PVEing or PVPing.
    pantaroGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SaunZSaunZ Member UncommonPosts: 472
    my Cryodiil rotation:

    Sprint
    Stealth
    Get Skyshard
    Stealth
    Sneak to next Skyshard

    Sz  :)
    [Deleted User]Octagon7711JeleenaAsmodeuX
  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    Iselin said:
    pantaro said:
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I could never understand all the negative reaction to the combat in ESO. It was not ground-breaking, but it was decent enough. What I would like to see is such posters tell us why it is other MMOs do it so much better.


    For example the generic solo and grinding AOE-heavy PVE style just does not work in PVP where you want to play a burst game doing as much single target damage just as quick as you can.

    I think this can be said for most mmo's that try to shoehorn PvE and PvP in the same game,they require two totally different mindsets and playstyles.
    Yeah, that's true to an extent but the feel of it is quite different in ESO compared to most other MMOs I've played where you might use different gear and different abilities but the flow of combat still feels relatively the same.

    I think it's because of the way you weave weapon attacks in ESO but in most other MMO combat the basic attacks are automated and you're just focusing on ability rotation and cool downs and those rotations feel very similar whether you're PVEing or PVPing.
    damn fine point there i gotta say!
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Lord.Bachus said:
    i never could find much liking in the ESO combat system..

    until.... i did some research...

    there is definately some skill in the combat..
    weaving light and heavy attacks into your rotation
    knowing how and when to cancel annimations
    switching skillbars on the fly
    knowing how and when to counterattack
    offcourse the dodging..

    i used to just stand there and use my skillbars skills just like on wow or other Mmo’s
    and yes thats kinda slow and boring
    but now i have found the true depth in the system, and i love it, i really do..

    actually the combat has grown so much on me over the past 2 months that it is currently on top of my list for all MMO’s
    strange isn’t it, how with a few small online lessons, the feeling totally changed..
    it actually feels like real combat now to me.. lots of reactional things to do..
    and i think skill really sets the good players apart..

    Glad you finally figured it out.

    We've been waiting for you... ;-)
    YashaX
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    It's not the best nor the worse of combat in MMOs.  It's also been slowly improving over time.  I've gotten use to it and actually like animation canceling.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    I'm not a massive fan of the combat but I've put a ridiculous amount of time into the game. I think I felt like many of you at first and enjoyed it but, later, when the game becomes balanced around the combat's 'problems', things changed for me.

    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it. I mastered it though, I've even completed Maelstrom Arena, so that opinion isn't because I'm not good at the combat. I just feel like it's busy work for no reason other than for the sake of it. It's not about skill, it's about whether you can be bothered to do it or not. My point is that you shouldn't have to.

    It lacks impact and feels floaty, which is the worst thing about it. Very little satisfaction most of the time, with some rare exceptions like when Mage's Fury finishes off a kill, for example.

    I don't like that it doesn't have cooldowns. Cooldowns help balance a game better imo and help with the pace of combat. Duel wielders just running around spamming Rapid Strikes or constantly whirling on trash mobs is a joke. People being able to spam heals in PvP is a joke. For questing, you can literally one button your way through the whole game using skills like Bloodthirst. Some people might like this but it's not my favourite thing.

    I hate how viable builds, by which I mean the top tier type where you can solo things like Maelstrom Arena, have you constantly swapping weapons to get to the skills you've put on the other bar. Another time where they have balanced the end-game around a pointless mechanic, you need 'all' 10-12 skills to win and that's a fact. It's redundant, not skilful. Having to swap, cast the ultimate on your other bar, then swap back is not good mechanics. It's extra busy work for no reason and just looks ridiculous cosmetically. Just let me pull out my bow so I can drop a Storm Atronach on someone's head, HUZAZAARGGHH! Two skill bars is great, swapping them every 5 seconds or less is crap and no fun. It would be better if the weapon swapping was used for utility or situational reasons or just for a change, so that it's a choice instead of a requirement. GW2 has this problem as well but at least it works better cosmetically. Personally, I think weapon swapping needs to disappear from MMOs if they insist on it being used this way.

    This probably sounds overly negative but really it's just intentional criticism from a fairly experienced player and most players won't experience the weapon swapping issue if they ignore things like Maelstrom or raids. I've played the game to death and managed to live with the combat system. I know they won't change anything now, it'd be a NGE situation type nightmare if they did.

    Overall though, I put it very low on my list of combat systems since it's full of redundancy. It was the game's content that kept me playing for as long as I did.

    Wow, that really turned into an essay lol.
    Gobstopper3Dgunklacker
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Main problem for me is too few skill bars and having to switch between the sets.  Plus some skills have to be entered on both bars lowering the available skills even more.  They could start to fix this by having pets on their own bar and even ultimates.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    TheDarkrayne said:


    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it.


    How can you have real active blocking and interrupts without the ability to cancel out of whatever else you were doing when you need to do it?

    That's where animation canceling comes from. When DPSers figured out they could cancel ability animations by blocking or bashing at thin air and increase their DPS quite a bit by forcing those shorter animations what was ZOS supposed to do? Get rid of active blocking?

    And how the heck do you have active blocking in a game with global cool downs?

    They built combat around the ability to instantly change your mind and that's why when it's played well, it feels very fast paced.

    I quite like it this way and the old style MMOs with GCDs and nothing but roll-dodge for active damage mitigation are the ones that feel clunky to me.

    I can understand players having a preference for one type of MMO combat or the other. But I find it amusing when I read all the posts in the official forums from people that want to get rid of animation canceling and have no clue that active blocking would also have to go if they do that.

    My advise to DPSers who think animation canceling (and weaving which is part of that) is a lazy kludge, is to roll a tank and L2P a tank properly in ESO. If you do that you'd finally understand why it's there and how it would be a totally different game without it.
    [Deleted User]Octagon7711pantaroKajidourden
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AzmodeusAzmodeus Member UncommonPosts: 268
    I am not a fan of the weaving and animation cancelation, not because I can't do it, but because in my opinion it just isn't fun.  I think it is also pretty lame that most Stamina builds pretty much use bow as the backbar with the same abilities in almost every build minus the Warden.  
    Kajidourden
      OMG I am Ancient!
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    edited July 2018
    Iselin said:


    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it.


    How can you have real active blocking and interrupts without the ability to cancel out of whatever else you were doing when you need to do it?
    I dunno, maybe the same way every other action game does it? I don't remember having to animation cancel in Skyrim and I blocked things just fine.

    Combat should be a bit slower so you have more time to react with no animation cancelling or you shouldn't be able to cancel your block. As in, your block can cancel skills but you can't cancel the block immediately after. That way blocking would lower DPS instead of being used as a way to increase it, as it should.

    I didn't say global cooldown, I said cooldowns. Like, Rapid Strikes can only be used once every 10 seconds or something.
    Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
    Kajidourden
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • SaunZSaunZ Member UncommonPosts: 472
    Iselin said:
    TheDarkrayne said:


    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it.


    How can you have real active blocking and interrupts without the ability to cancel out of whatever else you were doing when you need to do it?

    That's where animation canceling comes from. When DPSers figured out they could cancel ability animations by blocking or bashing at thin air and increase their DPS quite a bit by forcing those shorter animations what was ZOS supposed to do? Get rid of active blocking?

    And how the heck do you have active blocking in a game with global cool downs?

    They built combat around the ability to instantly change your mind and that's why when it's played well, it feels very fast paced.

    I quite like it this way and the old style MMOs with GCDs and nothing but roll-dodge for active damage mitigation are the ones that feel clunky to me.

    I can understand players having a preference for one type of MMO combat or the other. But I find it amusing when I read all the posts in the official forums from people that want to get rid of animation canceling and have no clue that active blocking would also have to go if they do that.

    My advise to DPSers who think animation canceling (and weaving which is part of that) is a lazy kludge, is to roll a tank and L2P a tank properly in ESO. If you do that you'd finally understand why it's there and how it would be a totally different game without it.

    ROFLMAO!   BOOM!!!!!   told the noob to get a tank... LOL!

    Sz  :)
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    SaunZ said:
    Iselin said:
    TheDarkrayne said:


    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it.


    How can you have real active blocking and interrupts without the ability to cancel out of whatever else you were doing when you need to do it?

    That's where animation canceling comes from. When DPSers figured out they could cancel ability animations by blocking or bashing at thin air and increase their DPS quite a bit by forcing those shorter animations what was ZOS supposed to do? Get rid of active blocking?

    And how the heck do you have active blocking in a game with global cool downs?

    They built combat around the ability to instantly change your mind and that's why when it's played well, it feels very fast paced.

    I quite like it this way and the old style MMOs with GCDs and nothing but roll-dodge for active damage mitigation are the ones that feel clunky to me.

    I can understand players having a preference for one type of MMO combat or the other. But I find it amusing when I read all the posts in the official forums from people that want to get rid of animation canceling and have no clue that active blocking would also have to go if they do that.

    My advise to DPSers who think animation canceling (and weaving which is part of that) is a lazy kludge, is to roll a tank and L2P a tank properly in ESO. If you do that you'd finally understand why it's there and how it would be a totally different game without it.

    ROFLMAO!   BOOM!!!!!   told the noob to get a tank... LOL!

    Sz  :)
    You like a 12 year old or something? That wasn't the point of their reply at all.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Iselin said:
    TheDarkrayne said:


    I hate the weaving aspect; it's just an exploit that they couldn't be bothered to fix so they allowed it and the game is now balanced around it.


    How can you have real active blocking and interrupts without the ability to cancel out of whatever else you were doing when you need to do it?

    That's where animation canceling comes from. When DPSers figured out they could cancel ability animations by blocking or bashing at thin air and increase their DPS quite a bit by forcing those shorter animations what was ZOS supposed to do? Get rid of active blocking?

    And how the heck do you have active blocking in a game with global cool downs?

    They built combat around the ability to instantly change your mind and that's why when it's played well, it feels very fast paced.

    I quite like it this way and the old style MMOs with GCDs and nothing but roll-dodge for active damage mitigation are the ones that feel clunky to me.

    I can understand players having a preference for one type of MMO combat or the other. But I find it amusing when I read all the posts in the official forums from people that want to get rid of animation canceling and have no clue that active blocking would also have to go if they do that.

    My advise to DPSers who think animation canceling (and weaving which is part of that) is a lazy kludge, is to roll a tank and L2P a tank properly in ESO. If you do that you'd finally understand why it's there and how it would be a totally different game without it.

    No one is asking to get rid of active blocking/interupts, just stop skills being cast if you cancel them.

    I agree that global CDs are terrible :)







    Kajidourden
    ....
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    YashaX said:

    No one is asking to get rid of active blocking/interupts, just stop skills being cast if you cancel them.

    That would be a technical discussion about the details of ability affect and animations of different durations that's beyond the scope or understanding of most of us, myself included, who are not action game designers.

    ESO is by no means the only game where you can get extra DPS by animation canceling. You can in many other MMOs and single player games. Blade and Soul and Mass Effect to name just a couple.

    And believe it or not, each ability in ESO does have a minimum time it needs to play out before it can be cancelled and still apply its effect: cancel it too soon and you get nothing. Try doing a keyboard or mouse macro to do the animation cancelling for you and you'll quickly run into having to introduce delays of different lengths depending on what it is you're trying to cancel. And yes I do have first hand experience with those macros because I did exactly that with my stamsorc several years ago just to see how it could be done. And no I don't use macros while playing because I hardly ever feel a need to animation cancel with the content I normally play and when I do want to pump out that extra DPS on a boss fight I can do it manually easy enough.

    When you're developing a game you can set the hit/damage calculation to happen as soon as the key press is detected, at the very end of the animation or anywhere in between. In ESO's case, as well as many other games, that calculation happens close to the start after a short delay. Why they decided to do it that way instead of after a longer delay I don't have the technical expertise to tell you. Maybe they were going all-in on fast pace and the cumulative effect of having all calculations have a longer delay didn't feel right to them... IDK why they went this way but since they're not the only developers who chose to do that for their game I assume there must be some nearly universal reason why short delays are chosen over longer ones.

    Your suggestion that a block always cancels the damage of an ability if the animation is still playing would be something at the total opposite end of the spectrum and would require a post full animation calculation. I can't think offhand of a game that does it that way but I'd bet that would feel much slower than ESO combat.



     
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Free premium starts today.  Enjoy everyone. :smile:

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • NyghthowlerNyghthowler Member UncommonPosts: 392
    I have no complaints on blocking and dodging; they make the game feel more active combat-wise.
    My bitch is that animation canceling should NOT be a requisite to decent DPS scores. It's sloppy, piss-poor design; intentional or otherwise.
    ScotZenJelly
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