I have never bought anything outside of box fees, subs or expansions for me, and I never will. Now, I have for my daughter when she and I played Wizard 101. I have spent maybe $30 on that game for CS items that she wanted.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Lootboxes are just a response reactions to non-problems that caused riots like "monocle-gate" where EVE sold a 70$ cosmetic only monocle and people freaked out about it. I mean cosmetic only. That should end the debate right there. Sell a 10 million dollar status symbol in your game for all I care. If someone buys it, awesome, more money for the game! But the cry babies freaked like the do any time someone spends money on something they can't afford.
So game companies decided it's easier to sell a 5$ item that gives you a small chance at something cool than have people freak at the upfront costs of status symbols.
Lootboxes are just a response reactions to non-problems that caused riots like "monocle-gate" where EVE sold a 70$ cosmetic only monocle and people freaked out about it. I mean cosmetic only. That should end the debate right there. Sell a 10 million dollar status symbol in your game for all I care. If someone buys it, awesome, more money for the game! But the cry babies freaked like the do any time someone spends money on something they can't afford.
So game companies decided it's easier to sell a 5$ item that gives you a small chance at something cool than have people freak at the upfront costs of status symbols.
With regards to EVEs Monacle gate you are greatly over simplifying a much more complex situation.
TLDR version: EVE players were expecting the new WIS feature to usher in a new age of in game interaction with other players and instead found out its first "incarnation" locked their new avatar alone in an expensive micro transaction prison cell which they never would escape. (Vets will see what I just did there)
I invite anyone so interested to read on for more detail, but the above pretty well covers it. - K.
It was a combination of introducing overpriced cosmetics along with the first (and last) iteration of walking in stations, along with a leaked internal newsletter literally titled "Greed is Good" and even a leaked internal memo from the CEO which clearly laid out a long term strategy for micro transactions.
The newsletter even addressed the challenge of trying to sell items of power to those willing to spend large fortunes on them without alienating the rest of the player base.
Keeping in mind, this was back in 2011, in a subscription based game before adding micro-transactions and cash shops to such games had become the norm. (How soon they forget)
This article below does a decent job summarizing the entire "crisis." What's interesting is the mention of how the leaks came from a concerned employee, and how these changes might jeopardize the future of CCP who was at the time a 600 person company spanning 4 countries.
We all know how the story turned out, failure after failure including shuttering/selling of World of Darkness, Dust 514, several VR games, and just recently, removal of the Captains Quarters entirely because it was too expensive to maintain a feature few players were using.
The corresponding layoffs with those events has left CCP as a shell of its former self, which was reportedly even put up for sale last year, but no takers it would seem.
Ironically with the removal of the Captains Quarter the folks who bought those $70 monacles cant even show them off to others outside of a paper doll like interface should anyone ever bother to open it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With regards to EVEs Monacle gate you are greatly over simplifying a much more complex situation.
...
The great irony of it all is that if CCP had done that microtransaction implementation in 2016, they would probably have been praised for their "reasonable" pricing and lack of lootboxes, lol
With regards to EVEs Monacle gate you are greatly over simplifying a much more complex situation.
...
The great irony of it all is that if CCP had done that microtransaction implementation in 2016, they would probably have been praised for their "reasonable" pricing and lack of lootboxes, lol
Yeah, the slippery slope had not been greased enough back in 2011.
Now many gamers are well trained to immediately bend over and grab their ankles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1) What's the most $$$$$ you have ever spent in a game outside of buying the box and monthly fees.
2) Also, what's the aggregate you've put into all your games excluding monthly and box costs.
3) Where do you draw the line in terms of too much?
1) Nothing. I've tried a few MMOs in the past few years and nothing caught me enough to want to spend money.
2) MMO-wise, nothing. Single player games... more than I care to count up.
3) Personally, I dislike the "cash shop and extras" that games charge for, these days. I'm old enough to recall when my game came with "everything included" in the retail price. Even $1 is too much, in my opinion.
Here's a novel idea... instead of cranking out free games so "the poor kids can play", also known as "accessibility", we start charging for complete, professionally tested, non-formulaic games again?
Sorry for the nastiness of the previous statement, but it sickens me that games have gone the way they have, businesswise...
I treat F2P games like SUB games, and just spend a normal sub fee of 20 a month on whatever I am playing, never had a problem getting whatever I wanted, and I can't imagine what the big spenders must dump their money into.
It's in the 1000s per month, the whales are usually 10 times range from big spenders.
It was more a question of what do they buy, I once spent 100 on a game, because they had a Game Point sale, and it took me 2 months to spend it all, because I could not figure out what I wanted to buy.
What kind of things do these whales spend money on, I mean after a time, they have got to run out of things to they even want to have.
It's easier to understand, if the game is like Trove, for example, where you can speed up the process by buying stuff.
Its all about maxing out their character - longterm it ends up being lootboxeses just tens of thousands of lootboxes per month to convert to in-game currency and trade for best gear in game
So Loot Boxes are basically Whale Bait, but, since the Poor Kids wanna keep up with the Whales, they cry about needing to spend money on loot boxes and try to get them banned.
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I treat F2P games like SUB games, and just spend a normal sub fee of 20 a month on whatever I am playing, never had a problem getting whatever I wanted, and I can't imagine what the big spenders must dump their money into.
It's in the 1000s per month, the whales are usually 10 times range from big spenders.
It was more a question of what do they buy, I once spent 100 on a game, because they had a Game Point sale, and it took me 2 months to spend it all, because I could not figure out what I wanted to buy.
What kind of things do these whales spend money on, I mean after a time, they have got to run out of things to they even want to have.
It's easier to understand, if the game is like Trove, for example, where you can speed up the process by buying stuff.
Its all about maxing out their character - longterm it ends up being lootboxeses just tens of thousands of lootboxes per month to convert to in-game currency and trade for best gear in game
So Loot Boxes are basically Whale Bait, but, since the Poor Kids wanna keep up with the Whales, they cry about needing to spend money on loot boxes and try to get them banned.
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
What it all comes down to is a great many gamers expect high quality and nearly endless content, for a negligible amount of money.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I treat F2P games like SUB games, and just spend a normal sub fee of 20 a month on whatever I am playing, never had a problem getting whatever I wanted, and I can't imagine what the big spenders must dump their money into.
It's in the 1000s per month, the whales are usually 10 times range from big spenders.
It was more a question of what do they buy, I once spent 100 on a game, because they had a Game Point sale, and it took me 2 months to spend it all, because I could not figure out what I wanted to buy.
What kind of things do these whales spend money on, I mean after a time, they have got to run out of things to they even want to have.
It's easier to understand, if the game is like Trove, for example, where you can speed up the process by buying stuff.
Its all about maxing out their character - longterm it ends up being lootboxeses just tens of thousands of lootboxes per month to convert to in-game currency and trade for best gear in game
So Loot Boxes are basically Whale Bait, but, since the Poor Kids wanna keep up with the Whales, they cry about needing to spend money on loot boxes and try to get them banned.
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
The devs chose to reduce the price of the game itself to zero so many times that that's exactly the value gamers put on the game itself: zero.
I consistently spend money in Guild Wars 2. I can easily buy everything that I spend money on with my gold but I really wanna support Anet. It is one of my favorite gaming companies. I really like their ungreedy and friendly nature. I probably spent more then $1,5k in the last 6 years in Guild Wars 2. Other than that I bought couple of mounts and pets in WoW and spent around $200 in Black Desert till I realise that there is no end for it and my money is literally going waste.
Spending $10,000 - $15,000 monthly for 14 months straight - that's a whale (real metric from a campany/MMO that I can't disclose)
why do they specifically use that amount of money? it looks to me they are using that amount to make it sound like anything less wont make you a whale.
Spending $50-$100 every month on the same game also makes you a whale.
After you pay for the actual price of the game (including Xpac and subscriptions if any), making consistent unnecessary payments of "extra" money regardless of amount also makes you a whale.
EDIT: if the game is free, make an assessment on all the prices and pay what you believe is worth it compared to other games you could buy with that same amount of money.
Spending $10,000 - $15,000 monthly for 14 months straight - that's a whale (real metric from a campany/MMO that I can't disclose)
This is a more accurate definition of a 'whale'. However, there are quite a few that only spend 5-8k per month (and have done so for years). The most I have seen someone spend is 100k+ for 3 months, with the following months being lower.
I, personally, spend 3k on games in less than 6 months (in the 80's).
1. Probably about $400-500 on World of Tanks, put a lot of $$ into Atlantica Online also.
2. Not sure, likely a few thousand. But in my case I've made many times more than that in Second Life so I consider my gaming as having all been paid for and then some. At least so far, may come a day I start running in the red instead.
3. $2000 or more is about where it starts sounding a bit crazy to me.
I treat F2P games like SUB games, and just spend a normal sub fee of 20 a month on whatever I am playing, never had a problem getting whatever I wanted, and I can't imagine what the big spenders must dump their money into.
It's in the 1000s per month, the whales are usually 10 times range from big spenders.
It was more a question of what do they buy, I once spent 100 on a game, because they had a Game Point sale, and it took me 2 months to spend it all, because I could not figure out what I wanted to buy.
What kind of things do these whales spend money on, I mean after a time, they have got to run out of things to they even want to have.
It's easier to understand, if the game is like Trove, for example, where you can speed up the process by buying stuff.
Its all about maxing out their character - longterm it ends up being lootboxeses just tens of thousands of lootboxes per month to convert to in-game currency and trade for best gear in game
So Loot Boxes are basically Whale Bait, but, since the Poor Kids wanna keep up with the Whales, they cry about needing to spend money on loot boxes and try to get them banned.
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
The devs chose to reduce the price of the game itself to zero so many times that that's exactly the value gamers put on the game itself: zero.
and this is why I like B2P games.. gets rid of the people looking for a free ride on someone else's dime.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
i think the game i spent the most money on would be X-men: Arcade (i think it was called) if we go by how much money i had to spend and how much of it i spent.
But for modern games... I did spend something like 60$ on APB and half that on Neverwinter. And put together i have probably spent about 100$ in total on OW boxes since launch.
Both being F2P so still about box price. I also have picked up a WoW pet or two as gifts for my better half back when we still played the game.
Generally speaking i do not spend money on "loot boxes", especially not in game where they add "power"
I treat F2P games like SUB games, and just spend a normal sub fee of 20 a month on whatever I am playing, never had a problem getting whatever I wanted, and I can't imagine what the big spenders must dump their money into.
It's in the 1000s per month, the whales are usually 10 times range from big spenders.
It was more a question of what do they buy, I once spent 100 on a game, because they had a Game Point sale, and it took me 2 months to spend it all, because I could not figure out what I wanted to buy.
What kind of things do these whales spend money on, I mean after a time, they have got to run out of things to they even want to have.
It's easier to understand, if the game is like Trove, for example, where you can speed up the process by buying stuff.
Its all about maxing out their character - longterm it ends up being lootboxeses just tens of thousands of lootboxes per month to convert to in-game currency and trade for best gear in game
So Loot Boxes are basically Whale Bait, but, since the Poor Kids wanna keep up with the Whales, they cry about needing to spend money on loot boxes and try to get them banned.
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
They have to earn money like any other business. Why would I want to pay for a WoW clone that's little different from the previous titles I played?
So instead of innovating new game play they decided to sell gameplay outside of the game itself. They decided to depend on a few and alienate the majority. This is their bed the made and slept in.
Yes some people play games as a hobby so they don't have to be reminded of their economic situation. For me I hate it for the spirit of competition and sportsmanship which I think is ruined by wallet warriors.
The most for me strangely was likely LOTRO. When I bought expansions I almost always took advantage of the double points type of promotions they had. Having said that I play for free now and it is pretty much the same as a sub. I have never bought points etc. otherwise that I can recall.
My wife sees my gaming habit as frivolous frippery and would much rather waste the money we don't save on retirement on going out together and family things. If I wasn't married, or if I were married to a more sensible and understanding women, I would spend a lot, lot more on certain games, like DDO when they have the double bonus points and the xp gem boxes. But when I assert myself and spend good chunks of money that way she makes me pay dearly with a ton of yelling and hostility for a very long time.
If you have plans of being a whale make sure to stay single or marry a very passive women that doesn't see spending thousands on a game as a waste of money.
My wife sees my gaming habit as frivolous frippery and would much rather waste the money we don't save on retirement on going out together and family things. If I wasn't married, or if I were married to a more sensible and understanding women, I would spend a lot, lot more on certain games, like DDO when they have the double bonus points and the xp gem boxes. But when I assert myself and spend good chunks of money that way she makes me pay dearly with a ton of yelling and hostility for a very long time.
If you have plans of being a whale make sure to stay single or marry a very passive women that doesn't see spending thousands on a game as a waste of money.
people still play DDO? I had a lvl 160 char, true resurrected like 8 times then I quit, it was a great game 10 years ago but now it aged and turned into a cash shop loot box game.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
I did spend on MMO's, though, "way back when." $60 box price, $15 EVERY month for years, sometimes to multiple titles. The $30 or so for every expansion when it released.
And you know the best part? I wanted to spend that money as a reward for a game that kept me entertained for years. Too bad it just wasn't "enough" for the big business that took over this hobby...
PS: I suppose I should end on topic
1) I have spent the most with Wizards101. I subbed ($10/month) for the first year I played AND bought 2(?) 60,000 crown packages for $60 each. Since I stopped playing and paying regularly, I've purchased 2 or 3 more. Let's say $300 above a sub fee.
2) Wizard101 is really the only game I've spent extra money in, so $300-ish?
3) I do have a budget dictates this, but I haven't come close to crossing it yet
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
My wife sees my gaming habit as frivolous frippery and would much rather waste the money we don't save on retirement on going out together and family things. If I wasn't married, or if I were married to a more sensible and understanding women, I would spend a lot, lot more on certain games, like DDO when they have the double bonus points and the xp gem boxes. But when I assert myself and spend good chunks of money that way she makes me pay dearly with a ton of yelling and hostility for a very long time.
If you have plans of being a whale make sure to stay single or marry a very passive women that doesn't see spending thousands on a game as a waste of money.
people still play DDO? I had a lvl 160 char, true resurrected like 8 times then I quit, it was a great game 10 years ago but now it aged and turned into a cash shop loot box game.
Its now better than ever. Lvl 160 is pretty high. I have a lvl 10 currently. If its a cash shop loot box game how come I play with just a sub? I would love to spend money on it when it has the xp boxes, but do not and it hasn't hampered or hurt me at all. And when I did ignore my wife's wrath and got a bunch before it didn't help much and didn't make anything that much quicker since it didn't get you nearly near fully heroic or epic max and it only allows one per life. The game is as, if not more, enjoyable just spending money on a subscription. And that is the exact attitude of everyone I play with, besides most of them don't even spend money on a sub.
Comments
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
So game companies decided it's easier to sell a 5$ item that gives you a small chance at something cool than have people freak at the upfront costs of status symbols.
...people spending money is boring.
TLDR version: EVE players were expecting the new WIS feature to usher in a new age of in game interaction with other players and instead found out its first "incarnation" locked their new avatar alone in an expensive micro transaction prison cell which they never would escape. (Vets will see what I just did there)
I invite anyone so interested to read on for more detail, but the above pretty well covers it. - K.
It was a combination of introducing overpriced cosmetics along with the first (and last) iteration of walking in stations, along with a leaked internal newsletter literally titled "Greed is Good" and even a leaked internal memo from the CEO which clearly laid out a long term strategy for micro transactions.
The newsletter even addressed the challenge of trying to sell items of power to those willing to spend large fortunes on them without alienating the rest of the player base.
Keeping in mind, this was back in 2011, in a subscription based game before adding micro-transactions and cash shops to such games had become the norm. (How soon they forget)
This article below does a decent job summarizing the entire "crisis." What's interesting is the mention of how the leaks came from a concerned employee, and how these changes might jeopardize the future of CCP who was at the time a 600 person company spanning 4 countries.
We all know how the story turned out, failure after failure including shuttering/selling of World of Darkness, Dust 514, several VR games, and just recently, removal of the Captains Quarters entirely because it was too expensive to maintain a feature few players were using.
The corresponding layoffs with those events has left CCP as a shell of its former self, which was reportedly even put up for sale last year, but no takers it would seem.
Ironically with the removal of the Captains Quarter the folks who bought those $70 monacles cant even show them off to others outside of a paper doll like interface should anyone ever bother to open it.
Glory days indeed....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2011/06/26/eve-evolved-the-day-that-eve-online-died/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Now many gamers are well trained to immediately bend over and grab their ankles.
Please sir may I have another.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
2) MMO-wise, nothing. Single player games... more than I care to count up.
3) Personally, I dislike the "cash shop and extras" that games charge for, these days. I'm old enough to recall when my game came with "everything included" in the retail price. Even $1 is too much, in my opinion.
Here's a novel idea... instead of cranking out free games so "the poor kids can play", also known as "accessibility", we start charging for complete, professionally tested, non-formulaic games again?
Sorry for the nastiness of the previous statement, but it sickens me that games have gone the way they have, businesswise...
VG
Suddenly it all makes sense.
What I have seen in this topic, however is hilarious, I mean I have seen several posters say something along the lines "I don't spend money on an MMO" and wonder why MMO's are not being made to target them.. let that process for all the people that are wondering what the irony here is.
Makes sense that they would need some kind of RNG means to keep the process ongoing, if they have people willing to spend that kind of money, they would need to give them something to spend it on.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
That math just doesn't work.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Spending $50-$100 every month on the same game also makes you a whale.
After you pay for the actual price of the game (including Xpac and subscriptions if any), making consistent unnecessary payments of "extra" money regardless of amount also makes you a whale.
EDIT: if the game is free, make an assessment on all the prices and pay what you believe is worth it compared to other games you could buy with that same amount of money.
My thoughts.
I, personally, spend 3k on games in less than 6 months (in the 80's).
2. Not sure, likely a few thousand. But in my case I've made many times more than that in Second Life so I consider my gaming as having all been paid for and then some. At least so far, may come a day I start running in the red instead.
3. $2000 or more is about where it starts sounding a bit crazy to me.
But for modern games... I did spend something like 60$ on APB and half that on Neverwinter. And put together i have probably spent about 100$ in total on OW boxes since launch.
Both being F2P so still about box price. I also have picked up a WoW pet or two as gifts for my better half back when we still played the game.
Generally speaking i do not spend money on "loot boxes", especially not in game where they add "power"
This have been a good conversation
So instead of innovating new game play they decided to sell gameplay outside of the game itself. They decided to depend on a few and alienate the majority. This is their bed the made and slept in.
Yes some people play games as a hobby so they don't have to be reminded of their economic situation. For me I hate it for the spirit of competition and sportsmanship which I think is ruined by wallet warriors.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
If you have plans of being a whale make sure to stay single or marry a very passive women that doesn't see spending thousands on a game as a waste of money.
And you know the best part? I wanted to spend that money as a reward for a game that kept me entertained for years. Too bad it just wasn't "enough" for the big business that took over this hobby...
PS: I suppose I should end on topic
1) I have spent the most with Wizards101. I subbed ($10/month) for the first year I played AND bought 2(?) 60,000 crown packages for $60 each. Since I stopped playing and paying regularly, I've purchased 2 or 3 more. Let's say $300 above a sub fee.
2) Wizard101 is really the only game I've spent extra money in, so $300-ish?
3) I do have a budget dictates this, but I haven't come close to crossing it yet
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR