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Who designed the Pantheon rogue?

2

Comments

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,874
    I always liked games that split rogues into two sub archetypes. A straight damage style and a more utility based style. 
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 226
    Not being a wow player, can wow rogues fulfill the CC role at the expense of DPS?  (I'm under the impression that wow only utilizes CC very minimally compared to EQ.)

    One of the the things I was thinking was unique about Pantheons classes was the rogues many CC abilities as we saw in a stream awhile back.  Is that a wow thing that I was unaware of?  Is crowd control more necessary in wow than I realize?
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,552
    Copying Anything from Wow is a complete turnoff for me because it is the combat and class designs in Wow that bore the hell out of me,very sad and simple.
    I personally don't know the Pantheon Rogues so i took a look at the site.

    First of all Pantheon is doing something i touched on in the past that i very much disagree with because it handcuffs combat and that is the endurance bar.What an endurance bar does is limit what you can do,makes it very easy for a developer to predict your dmg output and control the outcome and pretty much takes the combat out of your hands.
    basically endurance bars will turn combat into a predictable outcome,something i hate.

    How to do it better?Simple>>>CHOICE,it is MUCH better to allow players freedom to choose their attacks,allow players to think about their foe where as endurance bars just have players picking their max/min stats and that is all.

    SO for those not accustomed to BETTER system designs and played too much Wow i will give an example.

    Thief equipped with an xbow and drain bolts.Ok so the thief can non stop keep firing drain bolts for survivability,if there was an endurance bar he could not viably make this choice because he would keep running out of endurance to fire off drain bolts.
    So using the Pantheon design the Thief with maybe 200 endurance at 33 ENDR a shot could only fire off 6 drain bolts before becoming incapacitated,doing nothing but wait for some bar.
    I could explain a better design scenario but would take a couple more paragraphs to explain how it could be done BETTER.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,069
    I realize this is not customary, but I would like to play a rogue that is more like the smuggler class in SWTOR or like the Han Solo character in Star Wars. 
    SovrathThupliMrMelGibson

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Amathe said:
    I realize this is not customary, but I would like to play a rogue that is more like the smuggler class in SWTOR or like the Han Solo character in Star Wars. 
    Well, smugglers exist in the fantasy realm.  There's nothing to say a proper Smuggler class couldn't have been included here.

    I, for one, would've liked to see Pantheon get creative with such classes.
    ThupliMrMelGibson

    image
  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973
    Somewhat agree. A rogue is supposedly a morally or ethically bankrupt individual willing to do whatever is required to attain their goals. I'd like to see rogues realized as more of an unscrupulous utility class than pure DPS.

    • Heavy CC focus. (Blinding powder, sap)
    • Enhancements for bladed/piercing weaponry (swords, arrows) resulting in greater damage from teammates. (Poisons)
    • Debuffing. (Kidney shots, hamstrings)
    • Higher percentage chance for loot/gold drops while the rogue is in your party. (Pick pocketing, scavenging)
    • High, spikey, damage attacks only versus weakened opponents, not sustained DPS.
    You could probably turn the class into a more ideal puller than a monk. With stealth and CC, they should be reasonably good at isolating groups and splitting the mobs. Just... anything other than just the glass cannon they normally are.
    Thupli
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,069
    It also would be cool if they were masters of disguise, a la Arya and the Faceless Men. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,258
    Amathe said:
    It also would be cool if they were masters of disguise, a la Arya and the Faceless Men. 
    Yeah, GoT is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Masters of Disguise. :wink:



    SovrathMrMelGibson
    --------------------------------------------
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,069
    Yeah, GoT is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Masters of Disguise. :wink:

    Well for true masters of disguise, there is this:


    MendelMrMelGibsonJamesGoblin

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • LasterbaLasterba Member UncommonPosts: 135
    Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.

    This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.
    Where do you think WoW copied its rogue from?

    Yeah.  That's right.  EverQuest.

    Who made EverQuest?

    Yeah.  That's right.  Brad McQuaid.

    Who is making Pantheon?

    Yeah.  That's right.  Brad McQuaid.

    So, who copied who?

    Yeah.  That's right.  WoW copied EverQuest.  Pantheon's rogue IS the original rogue that WoW copied/pasted into its game.
    craftseekerUngoodFangrimThupliAmatheLokerosvannNimrylskadadThebeasttt
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    rygard49 said:
    Somewhat agree. A rogue is supposedly a morally or ethically bankrupt individual willing to do whatever is required to attain their goals. I'd like to see rogues realized as more of an unscrupulous utility class than pure DPS.

    • Heavy CC focus. (Blinding powder, sap)
    • Enhancements for bladed/piercing weaponry (swords, arrows) resulting in greater damage from teammates. (Poisons)
    • Debuffing. (Kidney shots, hamstrings)
    • Higher percentage chance for loot/gold drops while the rogue is in your party. (Pick pocketing, scavenging)
    • High, spikey, damage attacks only versus weakened opponents, not sustained DPS.
    You could probably turn the class into a more ideal puller than a monk. With stealth and CC, they should be reasonably good at isolating groups and splitting the mobs. Just... anything other than just the glass cannon they normally are.
    If you want to play a DnD rouge.. you gotta play a DnD MMO.. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    Wizardry said:
    Copying Anything from Wow is a complete turnoff for me because it is the combat and class designs in Wow that bore the hell out of me,very sad and simple.
    I personally don't know the Pantheon Rogues so i took a look at the site.

    First of all Pantheon is doing something i touched on in the past that i very much disagree with because it handcuffs combat and that is the endurance bar.What an endurance bar does is limit what you can do,makes it very easy for a developer to predict your dmg output and control the outcome and pretty much takes the combat out of your hands.
    basically endurance bars will turn combat into a predictable outcome,something i hate.

    How to do it better?Simple>>>CHOICE,it is MUCH better to allow players freedom to choose their attacks,allow players to think about their foe where as endurance bars just have players picking their max/min stats and that is all.

    SO for those not accustomed to BETTER system designs and played too much Wow i will give an example.

    Thief equipped with an xbow and drain bolts.Ok so the thief can non stop keep firing drain bolts for survivability,if there was an endurance bar he could not viably make this choice because he would keep running out of endurance to fire off drain bolts.
    So using the Pantheon design the Thief with maybe 200 endurance at 33 ENDR a shot could only fire off 6 drain bolts before becoming incapacitated,doing nothing but wait for some bar.
    I could explain a better design scenario but would take a couple more paragraphs to explain how it could be done BETTER.


    The illusion of choice is a joke.. at some point some min/max player will figure out the optimal DPS of a class no matter how convoluted the system is, and anything less will be viewed as worthless by all the other min/max players.

    In this case.. someone will figure out, if you play a rouge and Mix Stupidly Fast Shooting Ability, with a Something Something Mechanical Crossbow, and Acid Fart Explosion Bolts, you will be able to shoot 10% more Unicorn Bolts before you run out of McMuffin Power, then any other build.. and any one playing a Rouge that does not copy that build will be called a noob, and told to git gud and l2p.

    and well know this is true.

    craftseekerThupliNeanderthalDarkpigeonskadadjimmywolf
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • KratukKratuk Member UncommonPosts: 13
    edited June 2018
    Sovrath said:
    Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.

    This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.
    It's probably goign to be closer to the EQ or Vanguard equivalents.

    They never said they were redefining the "old school" mmo. Additionally, this game is only in Alpha right?

    Cut them some slack. They might add a few things that differentiate it.
    It's actually either in or about to begin its third phase of pre-alpha. So the classes aren't even complete. The reveals gave a basic premise of what is probably a first pass. They'll change a lot more before it even gets to alpha. But the reveal wasn't that bad. I kind of liked the idea of it myself. The new class reveals are being done by archetype three at a time, so we're getting that kind of first pass preview. So it's a little early to panic. If they are in a terrible state when we hit beta...maybe. But right now we don't really know anything more than a few skills and a class premise.

    Also, the Pantheon streams were all done before pre-alpha early on and in pre-alpha 1...maybe pre-alpha 2 for the later.
    svann
  • krulerkruler Member UncommonPosts: 589
    edited June 2018
    You wait for the shit storm when he finally does the Necromancer. a class Brad doesn't like.


    Till then I am not giving second thought to this, as waiting for Necromancer information and its looking like its going to be post launch so MEH.


    But as long as a Ranger gets in first, Brad is happy, the man is way to predictable.
    .extraClassAspect { -webkit-transform:scaleX(1.34)!important; }.extraClassCrop { -webkit-transform:scale(1.34)!important; }

  • strykr619strykr619 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    kruler said:
    You wait for the shit storm when he finally does the Necromancer. a class Brad doesn't like.


    Till then I am not giving second thought to this, as waiting for Necromancer information and its looking like its going to be post launch so MEH.


    But as long as a Ranger gets in first, Brad is happy, the man is way to predictable.
    .extraClassAspect { -webkit-transform:scaleX(1.34)!important; }.extraClassCrop { -webkit-transform:scale(1.34)!important; }
    Um Vanguards Necromancer was a very good class, so if anything I'm excited for what the pet classes will be like. 

    That and the bloodmage (well shit even the 3 shaman archtypes were good also in VG). 
    skadad
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,258
    kruler said:
    You wait for the shit storm when he finally does the Necromancer. a class Brad doesn't like.


    Till then I am not giving second thought to this, as waiting for Necromancer information and its looking like its going to be post launch so MEH.


    But as long as a Ranger gets in first, Brad is happy, the man is way to predictable.
    Not that I agree with you that Brad would gimp a class that he doesn't like to play, but either way, I wouldn't worry too much.

    Joppa seems to be heading up class design in Pantheon, not Aradune. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800


    Joppa seems to be heading up class design in Pantheon, not Aradune. 
    Accurate.  Although I'm sure Brad has his input.
    Wellspring
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,419
    kruler said:
    You wait for the shit storm when he finally does the Necromancer. a class Brad doesn't like.

    ... really ?

    Necromancer absolutely rocked BIG TIME in Vanguard. To my understanding they did that from the get go.

    Necromancer, Disciple, and Dread Knight all have been easy mode for Vanguard. Very good in group, and excellent solists.

    Disciple often felt like god mode, actually. Massive defense. Most massive single person healing; since it wasnt mana based, you really could just go on and on and on. Great damage output, too. I could solo stuff with this class, and pretty easy, just amazing. The cutoff point was very abrupt though. One opponent still allowed you to heal yourself, the next slightly harder could no longer be outhealed, and boom. I could fight [easy] mobs 10+ levels above my own level. I tested that once by accident. The only damage they received was some armor effect of mine - I couldnt hit them at all - but after half an hour or so they've been dead. Needed a lot of armor repair after that one and got no loot.

    Dread Knight actually would suck, like any other tank, unless you had the gear. Once you had gear, though, WHOW. Unlike Paladin Dread Knight couldnt be disrupted in their healing, and their healing would scale with their damage, and they even had an area attack with this effect. So with better gear DK scaled up drastically in solo survivability. I even heard a Dread Knight once managed to solo a raidboss. It was a level 50 raidboss, and the easiest in the game, and the DK was already level 55, after they raised the levelcap, and probably in top gear. Still thats super impressive. Usually you need a full raid force and good coordination for any raid boss in Vanguard. Okay, it was like the easiest in the game. Still, I've wiped with full raids against that one. You definitely did need the right strategy in Vanguard against raid bosses, even against the easy ones.

    Necromancer could also be very godmode-like, but there was limits. Once a mob had too many immunities (against fear and/or snare) and too high damage output (so it would kill the tank pet of the Necro), it became impossible. Still, Necromancer could be played in rags and still be quite efficient. Neither of the other two classes was that extreme.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,419
    strykr619 said:
    even the 3 shaman archtypes were good also in VG). 
    Disagreed.

    Wolf Shaman was good, Phoenix Shaman sucked, and Bear Shaman was hopelessly OP.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    t0nyd said:
    I can't believe I'm going to say this but I miss a D&D Rogues. Rogues we're about utility and not simply pure dps. 
    Don't know if you ever played WoW or not but Rogues are picked over other spots for the utility they provide more so than their dps. Rogues are the prime candidate to soak mechanics and interrupts because of their high mobility and defensive utility that other melee simply do not have. We have 2 skills that basically make us invulnerable for a short time which is pretty key for performing that role.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • chukekle1chukekle1 Member UncommonPosts: 33
     All these rogue haters that are just mad cause they keep getting beat by them on the dps meters in any game they are in.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,419
    edited August 2018
    In Vanguard Sorcerers have been the glass cannon. Rogues have only been spot two.

    Of course that was until they introduced that special twohander for Paladin and suddenly Paladin was the top dps class lolz.


    Though now I mention that - I also was once a top dps in a raid force on my Dread Knight. But that was probably because people had checked out my gear and figured they'd rather step carefully in respect to dps (it was a pickup raid and I had no proper raid guild, so my gear was, well, more tolerable then top notch). Well it was one of the timed fights (Dresla) but we still managed it well enough, so all was good I think.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    I never play rogues in MMORPG, so I'm clueless about the class. Nor did I play more than a few hours total of WoW.

    That's some pretty harsh criticism though. How would you design it better?
    Armchair game designers...they ALWAYS have ALL the answers.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,206
    As I remember it it was the bards that were top dps in VG, ironically.
  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Member RarePosts: 2,432
    for some creativity on a stale class, RIFT I though provided some pretty cool options

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