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I worry about the small guy

2

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,784
    "great feature" to help that little guy,perhaps the shy players etc etc?
    I have said it a thousand times >>>FFXI,devs should pay attention to the ONE game that took classes and combat to the next level and NOBODY has improved upon that 2002 design...nobody.
    Matter of fact most are designing their classes and combat far worse and in case of Wow whatever they had going on is now even more worse than before,they managed to ruin their game.
    Point being do NOT draw influences from Wow or EQ series because ,as i stated FFXI drew from EQ but did it much better.

    So i guess i can point at a couple examples?
    1 multi class aka sub class system.This creates versatility  and a VERY long path to improving your character,gives the game a lot more longevity.
    2 SOLO classes,YES it can be done,FFXI did it,so you can have a full on grouping game ALSO with solo classes.

    That is all i am going to say,it's be PROVEN ,so if the Pantheon team wants to pay attention and IMPROVE what they know >>AWESOME,if not,then just a repeat of a LESSER design from the EQ1 era.


    Big.Daddy.SamediZoeMcCloskey

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,784
    I should make note that just because i loved FFXI that does NOT mean i NEED to see the exact same,all i look for is games to advance the SYSTEMS within,i don't want "old school" or new school,i want BETTER,if you can't give me better then why should i buy into your game?
    I will always aim for the better design in each genre,i couldn't care less what developer makes the game or from what era,give me the best game and that is what i will play.
    LackingMMO

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Sinist said:
    centkin said:
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
    Not sure it is needed. If you have a good chat utility, you can easily setup chat channels to accommodate guild alliances. I am not against the idea, there are some things that could prove useful with a sub guild system, but a good chat system gets you around a lot of problems with multi-guild functions. 
    Better yet, create actual game systems that support the building of alliances between guilds.
    MendelPhry

    image
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    centkin said:
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
    Not sure it is needed. If you have a good chat utility, you can easily setup chat channels to accommodate guild alliances. I am not against the idea, there are some things that could prove useful with a sub guild system, but a good chat system gets you around a lot of problems with multi-guild functions. 
    Better yet, create actual game systems that support the building of alliances between guilds.
    Maybe, but again... Pantheon is focusing less on raiding and more on the small group game. The only real benefit of having large guild alliances and the like is for raids. I personally don't see the benefit of such for a game that focuses primarily on 6 man group content. I am not against any such feature, but development time is at a premium for this small studio. 
    craftseeker
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Wizardry said:
    I should make note that just because i loved FFXI that does NOT mean i NEED to see the exact same,all i look for is games to advance the SYSTEMS within,i don't want "old school" or new school,i want BETTER,if you can't give me better then why should i buy into your game?
    I will always aim for the better design in each genre,i couldn't care less what developer makes the game or from what era,give me the best game and that is what i will play.
    You love FFXI, I hated it. My friends hated it, but we loved EQ and even Vanguard to some extent (elements of it). Better is "subjective" in this case, and while I respect your desire to have such systems, keep in mind that this is a game designed around EQ/Vanguard in nature, not FFXI. 

    While there is nothing wrong with suggesting things, this game isn't catering to the FFXI crowd directly, so don't be too disappointed if your expectations do not fall in line with what you think is a better system with FFXI. 

    Maybe, you can get the devs of final FFXI to start up and create a new MMO just as Pantheon was brought to life by EQ creators? I mean, if the situations were reversed, I wouldn't be expecting that game to cater to EQ/Vanguard systems, in fact... because I disliked FFXI, I doubt you would find me expecting anything from them at all. /shrug

    craftseekerVynt
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited June 2018
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
    centkin said:
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
    Not sure it is needed. If you have a good chat utility, you can easily setup chat channels to accommodate guild alliances. I am not against the idea, there are some things that could prove useful with a sub guild system, but a good chat system gets you around a lot of problems with multi-guild functions. 
    Better yet, create actual game systems that support the building of alliances between guilds.
    Maybe, but again... Pantheon is focusing less on raiding and more on the small group game. The only real benefit of having large guild alliances and the like is for raids. I personally don't see the benefit of such for a game that focuses primarily on 6 man group content. I am not against any such feature, but development time is at a premium for this small studio. 
    While I don't disagree, Alliance systems could be geared towards merely providing a larger pool of players to interact with.  It should fit the intentions of the game to be sure.

    DAoC merely had an alliance chat, and it was an extension of the guild with regards to finding others.  You asked in guild, then asked in Alliance chat if the guild didn't fill the group.  The benefit is that there's some accountability even to playing with alliance members.  If a guildie in an allied guild did something awful, you could inform your guild officers, who in turn discussed the issue with the allied guild to help weed out the undesirables.

    With just a chat channel like you mentioned that's limited to Alliance members, it gives you a second layer of players that are a little more dependable than advertising in the zone/LFG channel.  Anything that increases accountability will help decrease asshattery.
    SinistKyleranVynt

    image
  • YilelienYilelien Member UncommonPosts: 324

    I think the point here is the Devs want people to group. To get to know people. Im not saying that small guilds cant do this. But I know that I had a large friend list (and a large guild in EQ). I also had a large DONT PLAY with list.


     EQ certainly want not perfect. I was a cleric. More often than not, before I even zoned in I had tells asking me to groups. But I also remember sitting in a zone for and hour or two LFG. BUt the more interaction I had, the easier it was to get a group. AND make friends.


     I have played a lot of other games after EQ. Its still the only game that I actually went and met with my guild mates, got phone numbers and made real friends. I feel if I can get 1/2 of that from Pantheon. It would be a win.

  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,920
    Until the game goes at least into beta we would not know how much "old school" it would be
    My gut feeling is if it is too much like EQ in terms of play as it was in 1999ish era it will bomb
    Things like having content only hardcore can see like it was in 1999 to early 200 would be a disaster
    Reason blizzard brought in various modes of same raid was exactly because they listened and knew people were unhappy with how raids were in vanilla WoW.
    People pay money and like any other buisness when you pay money you want to see it all.That was why  easy mode and hardmode were created and now adopted by many mmorpg .
    Also slow travel   and no locked encounters would be a major mistake
    People will accept death penalty if not too harsh
    I am keeping an eye on this game  and hopefully  it will give us a great group mmorpg that is fun for all 
    Kyleran
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,813
    If I was Joe.

    I would have gone to my car, taken out my wallet, bought some shit, and came back with a fucking golden halo around my head. Then they would have taken me in, and I would have gone home in one of their pickup trucks and some poor schmuck would be walking home.

    I like the unorthodox style of posting the story delete.

    Cryomatrix
    - p.s. features that games have don't offend me. It is like choosing a car, you choose one that is to your liking. Companies offend me when they let bitters and cheaters ruin the game.
    Kyleran
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,396
    The Joe of the world should probably roll a healer class and make friends
    Kyleran
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,031
    If I was Joe.

    I would have gone to my car, taken out my wallet, bought some shit, and came back with a fucking golden halo around my head. Then they would have taken me in, and I would have gone home in one of their pickup trucks and some poor schmuck would be walking home.

    I like the unorthodox style of posting the story delete.

    Cryomatrix
    - p.s. features that games have don't offend me. It is like choosing a car, you choose one that is to your liking. Companies offend me when they let bitters and cheaters ruin the game.
    I get your point, 
    All it should take for a "stranger" is some ball-z moves to fit in on his part. 
    BUT some heavy clicks could exist, potentially some servers more than others.  

    MILLIONS will be walking into this game with no friends and only a baseball glove in hand.

    It's more so in a game that's group centric... Just something to take in account.  
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,650
    I think crafters and gatherers should be required to group for the better forages and products.  I'm tired of them always getting to solo their way through games while the rest of us have to slag it out in awful PUGS while we wait for our friends to get online.

    image
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 932
    I shall add my 2 bits here. I understand the apprehension felt by Delete. Yes, a new player should seek out a guild depending on the server size and how active said server is. How far down the road, so to speak, are we talking about? If it is the first month or so I feel "Joe" would have fewer problems connecting with a group. However, what if it's a year down the road and people do what people do. They come and play for a while, find it's not their cup of tea and move on. Fewer opportunities found in world chat for Joe.

    At this point, since a new player has no choice but to try and find a friendly, patient and accommodating guild that is willing to include, Beth, Roger and any other number of newcomers, that would attempt getting those newbs up and running, so to speak. A guild is a community of friends. This is true regardless what type of mmo you have. I am a proponent of community driven guilds and questing mechanics to keep guilds active in building and progressing the group. Joe will always have hope if Pantheon manages to make it through it's initial phases of the so-important vanilla experience. It is way too early to make any sure bets about what will be in the near future. We can only hope that they are listening and planning for the future.

    Possibly using a "side kicking" feature would be of great help after time has passed and people discover the mmo. I know it helped greatly in some of the older games I have played. Just a thought. Good post Delete!

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,915
    I don't often do this, but I am going to have to agree with @Scot on this one.

    It's always been a problem for MMO's to try and reach too many people, too many players, that they lose what really made their own game in the process. 

    Case in point, GW2 tried to move up the bar on making harder group content to appease more players, and just killed the solo/social aspect of their game. Instead they really should have just focused on making the game fun first, as opposed to ending up making it frustrating.

    Same with games like EQ, they had a market for the hardcore player, and they stuck with that, which is why they saw direct growth for 6 years straight, and have become the iconic gold standard for MMO that followed, and gave birth to the Iconic WoW.

    Which again, with WoW, they moved away from really great raids, and tried to make a more casual game. It ended up costing them dearly.

    So in the end, I really hope Panethon holds true to their vision, and stays the course and does not try to be the game for everyone, and if that means that is becomes "Not the game for me" I'll respect the hell out of them for staying to their visions, even if I end up playing some other game.

    Also, DDO had the best Multi-class System of any MMO, because it was based on the best game of all times.. DnD.
  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877
    edited June 2018
    I had no problem playing EQ with no friends or guild.   I progressed through the game joining many many groups and didn't join a guild until well after max level.

    If Joe has problems doing so this game isn't for him.   He should stick with games closer to his intellectual level such as Bejeweled and Angry Birds.
    Post edited by Justsomenoob on
    Phry
  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,370
    I just want another SWG when it first came out.  Where I could have a full fun time being a crafter and merchant.  Make a lot of friends, help people out, interdependent on each other, so on.
    Amathe

    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,031
    If Joe can't figure out how to get groups, even though I did in EQ 20 years ago with no friends and no guild logging in by myself right on up to the level cap that's fine.

    Somehow I managed to join many, many groups and progress without issue.

    If Joe can't manage that, this game isn't for him.  He should stick with games more at his intellectual level such as Bejeweled and Angry Birds.
    This is under the assumption that Joe knows how to be social. 

    Most mmorpg players will be like Joe walking into a game WITHOUT a predetermined group of friends, and hoping to find them. 


    A game like this needs better tools in game so the millions of Joe's can link up with others.  

    Something other than shouting in chat "will anyone play with me"  



    Most would think Joe is being a baby...No... Joe is simply the "average among millions" walking into a social game without friends. 
    jusomdude
  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877
    If Joe can't figure out how to get groups, even though I did in EQ 20 years ago with no friends and no guild logging in by myself right on up to the level cap that's fine.

    Somehow I managed to join many, many groups and progress without issue.

    If Joe can't manage that, this game isn't for him.  He should stick with games more at his intellectual level such as Bejeweled and Angry Birds.
    This is under the assumption that Joe knows how to be social. 

    Most mmorpg players will be like Joe walking into a game WITHOUT a predetermined group of friends, and hoping to find them. 


    A game like this needs better tools in game so the millions of Joe's can link up with others.  

    Something other than shouting in chat "will anyone play with me"  



    Most would think Joe is being a baby...No... Joe is simply the "average among millions" walking into a social game without friends. 

    There's already an MMO for people like Joe that just want to jump in and don't know how to be social, without a group of friends.  

    It has tools that can link up Antisocial Joe with a group at any time, with other Antisocial Joes.

    He won't have to ever shout "will anyone play with me"

    That game is called World of Warcraft.  
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,031
    If Joe can't figure out how to get groups, even though I did in EQ 20 years ago with no friends and no guild logging in by myself right on up to the level cap that's fine.

    Somehow I managed to join many, many groups and progress without issue.

    If Joe can't manage that, this game isn't for him.  He should stick with games more at his intellectual level such as Bejeweled and Angry Birds.
    This is under the assumption that Joe knows how to be social. 

    Most mmorpg players will be like Joe walking into a game WITHOUT a predetermined group of friends, and hoping to find them. 


    A game like this needs better tools in game so the millions of Joe's can link up with others.  

    Something other than shouting in chat "will anyone play with me"  



    Most would think Joe is being a baby...No... Joe is simply the "average among millions" walking into a social game without friends. 

    There's already an MMO for people like Joe that just want to jump in and don't know how to be social, without a group of friends.  

    It has tools that can link up Antisocial Joe with a group at any time, with other Antisocial Joes.

    He won't have to ever shout "will anyone play with me"

    That game is called World of Warcraft.  
    I'm saying Joe "is social".  Read everything about Pantheon and absolutely loves the idea of playing with others. 

    ****Joe will be millions**** 

    Being blunt.... Can all the players penetrate the clicks ?  

    I'm not saying this is a bad way, but Large Guilds are clicks !
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,694
    I can see this being a problem if people buy the game without knowing much about it, but chances are most people who are going to buy it already know the details of it... and for the others... well good thing charge backs exist I guess. Gonna avoid this one personally. Looks like a snooze fest.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,427
    edited June 2018
    Ungood said:
    I don't often do this, but I am going to have to agree with @Scot on this one.

    It's always been a problem for MMO's to try and reach too many people, too many players, that they lose what really made their own game in the process. 

    Case in point, GW2 tried to move up the bar on making harder group content to appease more players, and just killed the solo/social aspect of their game. Instead they really should have just focused on making the game fun first, as opposed to ending up making it frustrating.

    Same with games like EQ, they had a market for the hardcore player, and they stuck with that, which is why they saw direct growth for 6 years straight, and have become the iconic gold standard for MMO that followed, and gave birth to the Iconic WoW.

    Which again, with WoW, they moved away from really great raids, and tried to make a more casual game. It ended up costing them dearly.

    So in the end, I really hope Panethon holds true to their vision, and stays the course and does not try to be the game for everyone, and if that means that is becomes "Not the game for me" I'll respect the hell out of them for staying to their visions, even if I end up playing some other game.

    Also, DDO had the best Multi-class System of any MMO, because it was based on the best game of all times.. DnD.
    Just don't do it too often I come with a government health warning. :)

    The one size fits all approach is now everywhere in gaming from WoW to Fortnite to Assassins Creed. I will have to admit to roleplaying heresy now and admit to thinking DnD is too old school for me, though the system was spruced up it creaks with age, still love the setting though. White Wolf set the gold standard, or if you like light systems take a look at Numenera, also has a fascinating world.

    All the new indie MMOs may end up being not the MMO for you, me and many of the rest of us. If I get one I want to play that will be great, but I do hope many are a success or that could spell doom for the MMO indie project.
    Post edited by Scot on
    Ungood

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  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,396
    Joe should play a healer. 
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 232
     Joe should not have problems finding people to play with for a while after the game releases. Later on maybe  year or so in the game, it will probably become harder to find groups and such at low level. But by that time, many guilds should be around and he should research them and find one that supports players his level and his play style. 
     

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 232
    centkin said:
    The problem with guilds in most games is that you can only join one.  It would be nice if you could join multiple guilds, that way you could still keep in touch with your friends in a social guild and hardcore raid with the raid guild you are in.  It would allow crafter guilds to form, with most people in that guild also in some other guild of their choice.  It would allow role play guilds to exist that only roleplayed without damaging the members in it.  It would also make it a softer choice to join a guild because you wouldn't have to drop the old one to join a new one. 
    I think this is a bad idea. It would weaken the guild system to the point they would not mean anything. Nothing wrong with being in one guild and playing with other ones on a regular bases. 
    Keeping up with friends is better done with the friend list system which I figure this game will have. I also hope this game has private chat channels like LOTRO does. With that system you could create a password protected chat channel and just invite you friends. Of course you could always set up a voice chat server independent of the game for that if you hate to type.
     
    delete5230
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    They did say that if you log in and your friends arent on that there will be things you can do solo.  But I wouldnt expect it to be designed to solo all the time.
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