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SorensinThames
Member UncommonPosts: 10
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SorensinThames
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This is great for publicity, for people other than mmorpg.com
As simple as their spoken topics are, people need to know stuff like "community" and it's come back.
It's been what ? 8-10 years ?
It's almost a new modern feature all over again. And I don't buy into the "social media had killed this off" crap !...…. 2019 will have it's share of basement dwellers too, maybe even more.
Official marketing hype lost all credibility
Group and Raid finders allowed people to be anonymous a-holes with no repercussions whatsoever outside of a random group of strangers (who you likely would have never seen again anyways) putting you on ignore. They also removed any need to be anywhere but the "social" hubs (aka: where I window out to watch Youtube while waiting for the queue) by warping you to the dungeon when it began.
The thing I loved about EQ when it first came out was that it forced you to play as a team, and punished you if you didn't. Not just xp loss or risk of losing your gear, but risk of getting a name for yourself with the community as a whole as someone who doesn't play well, or doesn't care enough to pay attention, or is just a troll looking to waste people's time. If you got that reputation, you felt it. There was no silly system in place that would make you basically anonymous again to inflict your stupidity on others. You were blacklisted from every GOOD group (at one point, the dbags were making their own guilds and groups, but that didn't last long once the GMs started banning blatantly harassing stuff). And without those "finders", that made gearing up basically impossible, and made raiding a literal impossibility unless you could fine 53 other people who would either put up with you (and you better be good at what you do for that), or are just as insufferable as you are.
This is what I cannot wait for. Camaraderie and the ability to be part of a community that will excise its own cancers when it finds them.
If you thought the original Everquest was bad about camping and guilds that refused to allow others to participate wait till whole guilds take over Pantheon. It will be interesting to watch like a social experiment. Gaming has changed a lot since 1999 and that will never be more apparent than when we read the complaints that emerge.
Controlling behaviour with ostracisation and denial of group opportunities only work if you can control the game which you cannot and people who behave poorly have no qualms about destroying games as long as they have their fun. The very rules that you're relying on to protect you will protect them too.
None were big enough to take over the whole game. How large would a guild have to be to take over a whole game? Some did try to take over whole dungeons at times but trains usually solved that problem. If they got bad enough then the GMs would disband the guild and often ban some players. Of course the guild could eventually reform under a different name.
People are different now and my biggest fear for this game is that these bad actor guilds might become the norm instead of the rare exception. But then I not sure if these type of players or guilds would want to play a game like Pantheon.
From my experience over the years in gaming from its inception to that of today, I wager there will be roughly three types of people who come to Pantheon and how long the stay will be a variable.
Group 1. The person who did and truly seeks the experience of that time in social interaction (ie the ones old enough to remember it properly).
Group 2. Those who who "pine" for the days of old, but were not maybe old enough to truly recognize the true aspects of the era (people who were kids at the time, but didn't truly understand the concepts of social structure at the time).
Group 3. Modern gamers tired of the mainstream resolutions and searching for something different to satisfy them.
Now Group 1 will certainly flood the game and try to achieve its memory of times past. Even in this group, there are divisions of expectations. I can tell you as a Test Server player in EQ, what I or people I played with expect in game play will differ from that of the production server players of EQ, so even in the "old school" players expectations, there will be conflict. That said, after a couple of decades of of gaming structure change, this group is more likely to put aside extreme differences and ban together to what has changed over the years to achieve a general common goal.
As for Group 2, these are the tricky ones. They will likely split between 2 and 3 as they were youth during EQs release that were focused to the original gaming values as a matter of understanding (ie, they weren't simply "kids" playing a game, they understood the depth of the system they were playing, the what, why and how so to speak).
The last group are interesting. There are "some" in this group who truly are "game seekers", they hunger for something that today's games do not provide. They have played the modern MMOs and games, but... they have a respect and longing for the games of old (ie why some love the old school games of the "Good Old Games" site.
This group is heavily laden with the locust (ie Instant , give me now, my fun, games exist to entertain me (specifically), etc...) who pour through such and expect immediate gratification as their reward.
Most of modern games today are overrun by group 2/3. Group 1 is pretty sparse throughout the modern gaming scene. Either they have given up entirely (only playing single player games, private servers between friends, etc...) or they play very sparsely and half-heartedly out of habit the modern games.
I think Pantheon, because of its attempt and focus will be a VERY interesting experiment. Times have changed dramatically from the days of the "old school" MMO gamer and lets be honest, most of the people "claiming" old school do so from either very young eyes (ie too young to remember the game as an adult because they were a child or teenager during its release) or they have been worn down by modern gaming practices.
Now please don't take offense at that last comment. I too have been worn down by such. I(f you are an old school EQ gamer, think back to your transition to WoW and remember. It was a different game, and while it had its own level of difficulties, it was MUCH easier than we had in EQ. Add in the years of WoW's adjustments to play (as well as other games) and we see how time and rationalized arguments to a purpose can wear down a system to levels that would never have been accepted at the start. It is essentially the "frog in slowly boiled water" problem. This is at the heart of MMO (or gaming in general) failure.
Anyway, food for thought.
Myself, I'd rather wait until the game is released and people are actually playing it before we can accurately assess the community. The game community is likely to be very different from the pre-alpha and forum community that exists now.
The only defining characteristic of the current Pantheon community is that they all gave up on EQ1 at some point. The reason why they left or when they left isn't important -- SOE failed to retain its customer base. EQ1 is pretty much a shell of its former self, which was never really all that substantial to begin with (~500k subscribers tops).
Basing a game on game play that the market that has already rejected once is a complete unknown. No other company has tried to recapture that market again with a replicated game base that would have been comfortable in 1999. It is fascinating to me to see if the market will respond as several companies are predicting. But that reaction, by the full market they will be able to draw, is something still in the future.
Maybe some people think EQ1 was perfection in its initial conception. Maybe the EQ1 era that generated the most memories was the Kunark era. For some, it may be Velious, Luclin or PoP that draws them back. Each of these expansions changed the base game enough that each era played differently. I think that if all these people from all the early eras do come back, they will find that the era that draws them to Pantheon may not be what Pantheon actually turns out to be.
The real test will be how well those players adapt to a Pantheon game that doesn't exactly match their memories. Minor tweaks to a game have driven off players before. I can't wait to see how players will react to a different game from what they expect. It may not happen at launch, but eventually there will be an expansion to usher in change.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
There were certainly reasons why people left EQ. In fact, it was quite evident and noted at the time based on differing expectations.
For instance, Shadows of Luclin was the first iteration of people upset with EQ and its direction. There was a large upset at fast travel being put in at the time with the Scions. Later, this upset turned into a much larger upset with the Planes of Power books and central distribution of travel, combined with the focus on raiding over that of group play (ie much of PoP was focused on raid progressed content blocking).
After that, the next upset you had was with Gates of Discord which was entirely a raid geared/focused content that seemed to cast away the entire group focused attention of the game (ie, if you weren't raiding, there was nothing for you outside of past old expansion content).
While EQ was never "WoW" in its numbers, keep in mind EQ's success was measured by its numbers according to the PC gaming community, not that of the entire base of entertainment industry. That is, WoW's millions of subs vs EQ's hundreds of thousands is not a correct assessment of each when you compare them. EQ in its prime was marketing to a very limited community (most people didn't own PC's during that era, or had any real interest in the PC gaming market).
WoW on the other hand marketed to both the console market and the new non-gamer market which was ENORMOUS in size. I remember while playing EQ, having my non-techie co-workers scoff at EQ and its graphics/style, teasing in evaluation of its play, while when WoW came out, they became attached, accepting and promoting in its play. Times changed and a new player base was born.
This is why there is a difference in the bases when we evaluate time over the years. Your average EQ gamer is nowhere near the same as the modern gamer. They are as different as night and day in expectation of play and promotion of such.
So, Pantheon attempting to appeal to the former is a huge step, but... the biggest hurdle and one I have already noticed with the game is that Pantheon is more "modern" in its current design. That is, while it promotes a concept of play from days past, it suffers from modern influences (not good ones in my opinion) that I "personally" believe will lend to its limited success (ie long term success, I have no doubt that Pantheon will be HUGE on release and for a specific time garner much fame and success, much like many modern MMOs do).
I can already see in the forums (Pantheon main forums, as MMORPG.com has always been sympathetic to more modern design approaches) where this mindset of expectation is driving people. I consistently see the tenants challenged, pushed aside and even demeaned by new supporters who seek to promote design concepts of current MMOs whether it be intentionally or simply due to habit of play, there is a given expectation of these people to be provided that which they have become familiar with.
Point is, VR has a very tough road to go (if they are truly seeking what they originally claimed) as it is reasonable to expect that even the staunchest of supporters is likely to fall victim to the allure of modern MMO convenience.
Personally, I don't have faith they will achieve it. I certainly hope they will, but based on their discussion, their "current" design choices, I think Pantheon is more likely to end up as a modern MMO with many past MMO features that stands too much on the fence of ideology and while it may sell well due to that, its inability to stand to a given hard focus will ultimately harm it.
Granted this all depends on how much attention and flexibility they give to alternate servers, but after watching the development of the game over the years, seeing the discussion, the growing bases arguments and expectations, I find this is a game I am more and more likely to simply avoid eventually. I don't want this to be true, but after 20+ years of watching MMOs and games in general unfold, I am not left with positive expectations.
There were loads of PC gamers concurrent with the start of EQ1 (and UO and AC). There were largely uncounted hoards of people playing RTS games, like Warcraft I/II, Diablo, and similar games from other publishers. In the late 90s, RTS games had players in the millions, while early 2000s saw MMORPGs with populations in the hundreds of thousands.
I personally believe that Blizzard didn't pull in new gamers with World of Warcraft, they converted their RTS customers to their MMORPG offering. The lore was familiar, the company was well known for quality, and their games delivered. It was an easy path for loyal customers to follow.
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The old games changed. Some think these changes were for the worse. That doesn't mean this is a viable market group anymore. Given the general demeanor of gamers, it is far more likely that the old core gamers have fractured from a single voice into dozens of sub-factions. Games like Pantheon are likely to have to rebuild this fractured marketplace, recapturing individuals from their current allegiance back into a new core. That is going to be quite a challenge.
Can VR deliver a game like Pantheon? I don't doubt it. Brad has done it before with EQ1 and Vanguard. For the people at VR, I hope they will be capable of tackling the issues of forging a new, solid player base from the current group of players. I just don't see any company capable of doing that, with the possible exception of Blizzard.
For me, I don't want to look into the past for future entertainment ideas. I already know there is a feeling of deja vu associated with Pantheon that I don't think I can overcome.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Maybe at the start it was primarily that audience pull, but there was a point where a huge influx of non-gamers that began playing WoW (I want to say just a bit before BC that it started to pick up?). I personally saw it with many people (work, friends, family, aquaintences).
I doubt they'll show this title any interest, but someone like them and equally large could form and they can dominate servers.
Social media today is what has enabled meta gaming on a scale unheard of back in 1999.
My old corporate guild Grievence will likely make an appearance and they can easily bring 200 to 400 members to a game.
If they show I might rejoin them, but perhaps I'm better suited for the OTG (Old Timers) who I'm sure will also be playing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQ today has so many modern influences that the game is broken in many ways (if you are comparing it to the basic concepts of its original play). Death has become meaningless and this was a problem going back as far as when they implemented graveyards, fast travel, mercs and boxing are the standard of play, etc... the list goes on.
This is important I think as it concerns the topic of this thread because many of the early design features I would say are what contributed to the community building the way it did. The more modern features and "conveniences" detract from that need for other players. Early EQ had so many limitations that simply moving around in the dark was a problem for some races which required assistance from another. Modern MMOs have pretty much removed all those small elements of interaction as nuisances of play rather than layers of community building and interaction in play.
Part of my previous point was that many people playing today (even old school players) would take issue with early EQ features and design. You can see it in the discussions on the Pantheon forums.
First I have to make a statement before I begin:
We had three generations of mmo's
First gen (EQ1,L1,DAoC)
Second gen (WoW,EQ2)
Third gen (GW2,ESO,FF14)
Like it or not, players didn't have a choice, each generation killing off the previous. What really sucks is First generation stopped hard, and never given a chance for rebuttal.
This leaves us the feeling "could first generation have evolved and stay popular" !!!
With Pantheon, 19 years later will see.
With that out of the way.
- We have the fast response in and out type players. The ones that barely care that the game is online or not. INFACT THATS ONLY TYPE OF GAME WE HAVE !
For me their not even mmorpg players. Just people playing what ever is mainstream and most are FREE games anyway.
They're millions strong, but they don't count in any category, they're just looking for a game.
Still and all, some may like a first generation game too.
- We have Hardcore online players that take they're games seriously.
Well, they're millions strong too !...…. And nothing to play.
They could be original first generation or new players that haven't had the chance yet.
So in the end the result is as d-20 says, but it was the gaming industry that led the way, players followed or did not play at all. That's why I have concerns for indie MMOs that go to far from the "norm" but as long as they don't need a huge player base they will do fine.
The rest are all just filthy casuals.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I suspect this one is going to be more serious than I'm willing to be anymore, but its fun to watch.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, I haven't played it in a couple of years, but EQ has graveyards still right? You can also easily summon your corpse through an NPC in PoP right? You can still fast travel everywhere you like right? You have mercs that can heal, rez, tank, etc... filling every role you need right?
See, I don't think player trade is a "need", it is a convenience. Imagine if player trade was completely banned. You could still play the game, group to explore dungeons and obtain items. You could still progress and advance in the game.
Larger worlds merely means you have to take time in logistics planning. EQ before SoL was still a very large world and yet people managed to do well without extensive instant travel networks. In fact, Velious had areas where it was EXTREMELY difficult to get around. If you ever did ToV, or grouped past Skyshrine, you knew it was a very difficult prospect to get around and recover from death, and yet... Velious is a fond memory of many EQ players of old.
Point is, I think having too much convenience over time has created expectations that are a bit accustomed to ease of benefits such provides, and it is taken for granted without respect to the result it creates. I completely understand peoples position, I too had grown accustomed to the benefits of modern game play design convenience and I also believed that these were changes for the better, but over the years of one MMO after the other feeling void of accomplishment, of purpose and left an emptiness in play, I realized it is those things to which gave balance to play. That is, the sweet is never as sweet without the bitter.
Games today have worked hard to remove the bitter and the sweet has become nothing more than a bland taste.