When I played Morrowind (the original, as a single player rpg) I discovered I could steal things. Up until that moment in my life I had been an honest person, not inclined to theft. But in Morrowind I indulged my dormant bad character and stole everything. And I mean everything. Entire villages were filled to capacity with heaps of the things I stole. It was over the top. I totally lost interest in the game itself and just went around looking for so much as a tea pot that I might have left untouched.
Some mmorpgs have a steal ability that lets you pinch a few coppers off another player or NPC. They never seem to develop it much - maybe to prevent people like me from toting off the whole game.
I don't think people should be able to do what I did in any multiplayer game, but ought there not be a little more substance to stealing? Less of a novelty and at least as good as a mini-game?
You kill people and animals in the MMOs - you are terrible person If we exclude that, the stealing from the other players is a good MMO feature if it is well made. Also loot, and other things that make the game more immersive, challenging, multiplayer and meaningful - so your behavior in the game has consequences for the gameplay.
In most MMO's you're like a mass murderer, becoming more powerful by increasing your kill count. Stealing would be trivial in comparison to taking lives for a living.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
In most MMO's you're like a mass murderer, becoming more powerful by increasing your kill count. Stealing would be trivial in comparison to taking lives for a living.
I think perhaps, where people get hung us is that in many games, you can't just randomly attack NPC villagers on the sidewalk unless they are a member of a demon worshipping cannibal village (with a few noted exceptions to this rule of course.) Most thief mechanics I've seen though, you just walk into Joe's house and take the stuff he has sitting on his kitchen table.
...Then again most of those mechanics were in games like Skyrim or Fable where you can just hack down villagers if the whim takes you sooooo.... *shrug*
In a regular game setting, as has been mentioned, it's just a cheesy mechanic that lets you get free stuff way too easily. There's usually no downside, which basically makes for a system where stealing is like an old-school cheat code that gives you unlimited money.
And for MMOs, PvP-type theft, there's just no legitimate punishment in most games to balance things out.
We all know that the only solution for having a fun theft system and keeping it from being a griefer paradise is brutal punishment.
As far as actual game systems, there needs to be very obvious visual animations for picking the lock on someone's house, for instance. Also, those things need to take time so that the person can get caught while they are tampering.
I like the concept of players having home defense systems such as traps and magical wards/locks, etc., like in the good old D&D systems. But, as mentioned, this stuff has to actually be challenging and deadly.
I prefer to see systems where criminals lose everything should they get caught/killed(regardless of whether or not they banked all their stuff and run around naked). Obviously, the city guard should raid their stashes and accounts and take everything as reparations. This could also include permanent death for notorious criminal types.
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrolls and Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
Fir npc like in Skyrim I'll steal everything. I don't want to steal from a player because it would irritate me if it happened to me.
By that logic, you should not play with players. It is just a game.
Not everything is black and white, my friend. Life would be simpler that way, but codes of ethics, much like games and game play preferences (from previous discussions) are much more nuanced and flexible.
ESO did a good job. If you were seen stealing they would lock the door to keep you from getting away and alert the guards. At first if the guards caught you it was instant death, later you could escape but it wasn't easy unless you had a mini maxed character. As being a thief goes it's not bad.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
ESO did a good job. If you were seen stealing they would lock the door to keep you from getting away and alert the guards. At first if the guards caught you it was instant death, later you could escape but it wasn't easy unless you had a mini maxed character. As being a thief goes it's not bad.
It's the deepest implementation of theft from NPCs and their homes I have ever seen in any MMO. From the comments in this thread I get the impression that most here have never experienced that first hand.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The thing with stealing stuff from other players (or murdering them and looting their dead bodies for that matter) is that it really depends on your game.
If items matter little and your powers mainly comes from your character those things are not a big issue but when the main goal of the game is aquiring the best gear or the largest amount of gold you get a problem. People who spent 3 months raiding to get the best dagger in the game will not be happy whan someone pickpocket it from them at the bank and they certainly wont bother trying to get a new one the same way, everyone will instead just try to steal it from someone else.
So it depends what kind of gameplay you really want. Stealing could certainly work in some games but it doesn't work in others and the same goes for full loot PvP.
It certainly could be fun to make an urban survival game where people play thieves and rebels in a huge city ruled by an evil king with backstabbing, plots and so on. It wouldn't be very fun to add stealing to a game like Wow though.
I used to play an old 2D MORPG (like 80+ players max concurrently) that sort of had stealing. You couldn't actively steal what players carried on them, but you could steal stuff out of their house if you played smart (and they were dumb).
The doors to the house could only be open by the owner, including vault doors. They had a timer on them of about 15-20 seconds or so, then they would automatically close again. If the owner opened the entrance without blocking it before the door closed, a hidden thief (or anyone with an invis potion) could walk in behind them unnoticed. Same thing applied to vault doors. It was tricky for both involved because even hidden/invis people still blocked the path, so if you were careless you could be found. The trick was to get in unnoticed, wait for the owner to leave, and then steal everything in the vault once they're gone. Anyone could open the doors from inside in order to exit, so you weren't trapped inside.
Gear was pretty easily replaced though. Dungeons were mostly puzzles and the mobs that were tough could easily be kited most of the time. Typically took an hour max to replace a good set of gear, so it wasn't a huge loss unless you lost of massive stockpile.
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Fir npc like in Skyrim I'll steal everything. I don't want to steal from a player because it would irritate me if it happened to me.
By that logic, you should not play with players. It is just a game.
I hate to ask and may get banned, but do you have a small penis that you try to compensate for?
Every reply you give is based on conflict with other players. Why do you think they only way to interact with others (these boards included) is to be confrontational? You do a heck of a lot of chest beating around here. You even had the balls to contradict @Raph who helped design the UO system, like you have all the answers.
"You're don't PvP? You're a girlie-man!" "You don't steal from others? You're a pansy-ass single player game lover!" "MY preferred game (L2?) is THE bestest, most toughest, most hardcore game EVAH!!!"
Get over yourself already...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Correct. I was referring to the single-player series and how you could just steal everything in sight without any real effort.
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
No, you just don't disagree. You attempt to belittle, cajole, and name call others into thinking as you do. There is a huge difference and I use the tactic myself, to my shame.
You also seem to lack any empathy whatsoever. I have yet to see you see any question posed here in any other light than your own. You seem to be unable to see anything any other way, thus discussions are quite one-sided with you.
But, this is the internet and people can post whatever they wish, within the bounds of the site. So who am I to complain, right? Post away. It's time I gave up trying to discuss with you.
Since when a solo player is an insult? And of course I'm trying to make others agree with me, isn't that the goal of every discussion? And yes, I have lack of empathy about people who lose in games. I feel empathy to people who suffer and have problems in the real life. Games are for playing - sometimes you lose, sometimes you win, but if you suffer form gameplay - well there is something wrong with you.
A person who calls all the players who PK/PvP psychopaths and deny any meaningful risk in games - Jean-Luc_Picard - cannot get any empathy from me. His thinking is not only wrong, but also deviant.
Any discussion should be based on arguments. If you have good arguments I will agree with you. People say/think, also I enjoy/have fun, and developers/publishers know best - are not valid arguments.
This discussion is about stealing in games - I say - it is a good multiplayer feature. Jean-Luc_Picard - says - it's immoral. I say - this is ridiculous, we are talking about games - he repeats himself. I say - but most games simulate beating of mobs and players - how that is less immoral - he repeats himself, and etc. It's like discussion between person and bot - the bot says only one thing, but bold.
In fact stealing is just a risk. It depends how it is implemented. What are the penalties and the rewards. In general it is a good multiplayer feature, but there should be mechanisms to defend and mechanisms to overcome the defense. Instead to discuss that, we are talking about the nonsenses of few solo players who are trying obviously to derail the discussion about a topic they do not like.
blah blah blah... i'm right you're wrong. blah blah blah... i'm great, you suck. blah blah blah... blah blah blah... you play single player, i manly multiple player...blah blah blah
It's amazing that he still tries to make me say things I NEVER said. He's on ignore, but sadly I sometimes still have to read parts of his posts in quotes.
- I never said PvP players were psychopaths. I said that curiously, many of them seem to choose to ROLEPLAY a psychopathic killer when they are put in such an environment.
- I never denied any meaningful risk in games.
- I never said stealing in a game is immoral.
I wonder if I can actually report someone for repetitive lying akin to baiting... not to forget the repetitive personal attacks.
The most effective tactic is to just ignore don't respond at all . They will have no attention in the end and basically these people are starved for attention otherwise they will not use your name so many times in a post. (I think he might have a crush on you) /shudder. They are not here to discuss just argue and beat you over the head with their viewpoint. It's tiring so just let them stew in your non responsive posts. When you do not respond they have no ammunition.
I liked stealing in Vanguard, you could pickpocket NPCs and use the crap you found as part of poison making. As a mechanic, it is definitely under utilised in MMORPGs.
It is a funny world we live in. We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Correct. I was referring to the single-player series and how you could just steal everything in sight without any real effort.
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
If you enjoy that kind of gameplay, you should really give it a chance. Both the thief and assassin lore is masterfully written and very entertaining.
I just played thru these ESO DLC's with a new alt, especially designed to be stealthy and it was a blast. Pretty hard to do those heists and I still fail them quite a bit
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Correct. I was referring to the single-player series and how you could just steal everything in sight without any real effort.
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
If you enjoy that kind of gameplay, you should really give it a chance. Both the thief and assassin lore is masterfully written and very entertaining.
I just played thru these ESO DLC's with a new alt, especially designed to be stealthy and it was a blast. Pretty hard to do those heists and I still fail them quite a bit
I suck at them and am always getting caught so I just murder my way to victory. Luckily I have a large stockpile of "pardon edicts"
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Correct. I was referring to the single-player series and how you could just steal everything in sight without any real effort.
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
If you enjoy that kind of gameplay, you should really give it a chance. Both the thief and assassin lore is masterfully written and very entertaining.
I just played thru these ESO DLC's with a new alt, especially designed to be stealthy and it was a blast. Pretty hard to do those heists and I still fail them quite a bit
I suck at them and am always getting caught so I just murder my way to victory. Luckily I have a large stockpile of "pardon edicts"
I kept failing on my main, who is a altmer with no stealthy stuff, so I decided to do it on a specialized character. And yes...I used up a lot of 'pardon edicts' too...
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrollsand Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
It's obvious you never played ESO, or at least not long enough to experience the theft system fully. You won't steal everything in a city and get away with it so easily.
I think he means the Elder scrolls single player games, not ESO. Since a MMO have a very different economy they improved the system.
Correct. I was referring to the single-player series and how you could just steal everything in sight without any real effort.
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
If you enjoy that kind of gameplay, you should really give it a chance. Both the thief and assassin lore is masterfully written and very entertaining.
I just played thru these ESO DLC's with a new alt, especially designed to be stealthy and it was a blast. Pretty hard to do those heists and I still fail them quite a bit
I suck at them and am always getting caught so I just murder my way to victory. Luckily I have a large stockpile of "pardon edicts"
I kept failing on my main, who is a high elf with no stealthy stuff, so I decided to do it on a specialized character. And yes...I used up a lot of 'pardon edicts' too...
I'm currently going through the DB quest line on my Magplar vamp - the "press X to feed" as a vamp keeps getting in the way of my "press X to use Blade of Woe" and her stealth sucks. Talk about handicapping myself lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
...Then again most of those mechanics were in games like Skyrim or Fable where you can just hack down villagers if the whim takes you sooooo.... *shrug*
And for MMOs, PvP-type theft, there's just no legitimate punishment in most games to balance things out.
We all know that the only solution for having a fun theft system and keeping it from being a griefer paradise is brutal punishment.
As far as actual game systems, there needs to be very obvious visual animations for picking the lock on someone's house, for instance. Also, those things need to take time so that the person can get caught while they are tampering.
I like the concept of players having home defense systems such as traps and magical wards/locks, etc., like in the good old D&D systems. But, as mentioned, this stuff has to actually be challenging and deadly.
I prefer to see systems where criminals lose everything should they get caught/killed(regardless of whether or not they banked all their stuff and run around naked).
Obviously, the city guard should raid their stashes and accounts and take everything as reparations.
This could also include permanent death for notorious criminal types.
Stealing in games like the Elder Scrolls and Fallout, etc, just felt completely pointless and shallow. You could steal everything in the city and no one would even notice that anything was missing. There has to be some kind of effect and reaction to such activities.
Sheesh
Current game: Pillars of Eternity
Played: UO, AC, Eve, Fallen Earth, Aion, GW, GW2
Tried: WOW, Rift, SWTOR, ESO
Future: Camelot Unchained? Crowfall? Bless?
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If items matter little and your powers mainly comes from your character those things are not a big issue but when the main goal of the game is aquiring the best gear or the largest amount of gold you get a problem. People who spent 3 months raiding to get the best dagger in the game will not be happy whan someone pickpocket it from them at the bank and they certainly wont bother trying to get a new one the same way, everyone will instead just try to steal it from someone else.
So it depends what kind of gameplay you really want. Stealing could certainly work in some games but it doesn't work in others and the same goes for full loot PvP.
It certainly could be fun to make an urban survival game where people play thieves and rebels in a huge city ruled by an evil king with backstabbing, plots and so on. It wouldn't be very fun to add stealing to a game like Wow though.
The doors to the house could only be open by the owner, including vault doors. They had a timer on them of about 15-20 seconds or so, then they would automatically close again. If the owner opened the entrance without blocking it before the door closed, a hidden thief (or anyone with an invis potion) could walk in behind them unnoticed. Same thing applied to vault doors. It was tricky for both involved because even hidden/invis people still blocked the path, so if you were careless you could be found. The trick was to get in unnoticed, wait for the owner to leave, and then steal everything in the vault once they're gone. Anyone could open the doors from inside in order to exit, so you weren't trapped inside.
Gear was pretty easily replaced though. Dungeons were mostly puzzles and the mobs that were tough could easily be kited most of the time. Typically took an hour max to replace a good set of gear, so it wasn't a huge loss unless you lost of massive stockpile.
Every reply you give is based on conflict with other players. Why do you think they only way to interact with others (these boards included) is to be confrontational? You do a heck of a lot of chest beating around here. You even had the balls to contradict @Raph who helped design the UO system, like you have all the answers.
"You're don't PvP? You're a girlie-man!"
"You don't steal from others? You're a pansy-ass single player game lover!"
"MY preferred game (L2?) is THE bestest, most toughest, most hardcore game EVAH!!!"
Get over yourself already...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Though, JLP, you are correct, I don't have too much experience with the ESO system. I only briefly messed around with thieving back when it was first added, really. I never checked out the whole Thieves' Guild type expansion and the deeper parts(I haven't played ESO in a fairly long time).
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As a mechanic, it is definitely under utilised in MMORPGs.
We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests