Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Are rotations good or bad game design?

Revisiting the idea of a min/max attack pattern to use over and over for max damage output.  This generally the norm for the genre.  Is this how the genre should be?

Rotations only natural as you form up your best skills at the right time.  It is also an indication that many of the opponents are largely the same and same tactics work for everyone.

Should abilities be more specialized and specific so some should be ineffective in situations. 

SteelhelmOctagon7711
«134

Comments

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,335
    Roughly same abilities should work for everyone, because there's only a limited number of fingers you have for pushing buttons to activate those abilities.

    But games should have enough variance and randomness so that you need to constantly react to what's happening and player just spamming same button sequence over and over again gets lower dps than a player who reacts.
    craftseeker
     
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    A monkey could rotate skills. Using the right skill at just the right time makes for a far superior and more fun combat.
    SovrathSteelhelmScotdeniterPhryMadFrenchie
  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 706
    I remember Age of Conan trying something "revolutionary" for that time, with directional attacks. I did not like it much, maybe also because it was new and I was not used to it, but for sure the main reason is that the game got me tired much faster than those with traditional combat. I changed to some priest class, they didn't have directional combat so problem solved.

    The main reason why I hated Wildstar was the same "combat complexity", with all the mobs having red telegraphs which you have to dodge. Not everyone likes extremely complex combat in MMO's.

    On the other hand, a game where the focus is the combat, like monster hunter, dauntless etc. would feel incomplete with just rotations. In conclusion, it depends on the game.
    wandericaGorweOctagon7711gunklacker
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    edited June 2018
    No matter how you design the game there will always be an optimal rotation of skills to use when it's safe to do so, and it's rather difficult to design a PvE encounter where it's not safe to do so most of the time.

    At best typical MMO style combat can throw in powerful skills with long cooldowns that need to be used at the right time, conditional abilities and procs that break up the flow. Still, between those you're going to be using your optimal damage rotation because it's optimal. 

    That doesn't mean that it's easy or boring; far from it. I played Storm caller in Rift at a time when it was a quite difficult class that most people couldn't pull off. You had to juggle multiple buffs and debuffs, track their durations and cooldowns and insure that your rotation is perfect every time through or your DPS goes from #1 to lower than the tank. Use an ability out of order? -30% damage until the cooldown is back up. Use your damage buff when your target doesn't have max stacks of the debuff? -60% damage. Force master in B&S was pretty similar with stacking embers, motes and burning. If you had the focus, dexterity and timing to pull it off, FM was an amazing class. If not, you probably spent a lot of time whining on the forum about it being a crappy class.






    AlBQuirky
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,207
    Loke666 said:
    A monkey could rotate skills. Using the right skill at just the right time makes for a far superior and more fun combat.
    then dont play DPS. tanks and healers don't have a rotation.
    AlBQuirkyMadFrenchie

    image

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,287
    I'm pretty old and slow, so I appreciate a basic rotation.  I can understand how other people would want more variation and "action," though.
    AlBQuirkyOctagon7711
  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    We talking about macro abilities? Timing or Macros is debatable. Timing or knowing your internet connection? Computer speed all that Jazz. Most true Pvpers regardless of the game want consistent healing and a glass cannon. Tanks produce the most comedy. What are we talking about?
     
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,335
    I'm pretty old and slow, so I appreciate a basic rotation.  I can understand how other people would want more variation and "action," though.
    I don't think rotation has anything to with being slow. If anything rotation is a test of dexterity that gives advantage to younger players as opposed to making decisions where old players can be just as competitive.
    Gorwe
     
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 332
    imo the next step from rotations is action combat which I'm not a fan of in mmorpgs. in that light rotations are good game design imo. what I'd like mmorpgs do is to go to an even slower combat style with auto-attack ie something like in melee combat you could choose something between full defense, defensive attack or full attack etc. for each turn.
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    edited June 2018
    Rotations is the lazy way of a player using what should be a priority system when it comes to their abilities. Take WoW for instance. Do you seriously think the world first players use the same buttons in the same sequence for the entire fight? No, they don't. Things are used on a priority based system depending on what happens during the fight and they have the skill to use the right ability at the right time.

    Think along the lines of "If X is Y, then use Z; use C instead if D is present". You can make a "rotation" in any game, so no it isn't "bad game design", it's merely the sign of a lazy player.


    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    edited June 2018
    simmihi said:
    I remember Age of Conan trying something "revolutionary" for that time, with directional attacks. I did not like it much, maybe also because it was new and I was not used to it, but for sure the main reason is that the game got me tired much faster than those with traditional combat. I changed to some priest class, they didn't have directional combat so problem solved.

    The main reason why I hated Wildstar was the same "combat complexity", with all the mobs having red telegraphs which you have to dodge. Not everyone likes extremely complex combat in MMO's.

    On the other hand, a game where the focus is the combat, like monster hunter, dauntless etc. would feel incomplete with just rotations. In conclusion, it depends on the game.
    Moving out of red circles/triangles is complex combat? To give an example of what i think complex combat is.

    Fighting Sephiroth in KH1. Dude was damn near impossible to beat. Also, in Blade and Soul, there was this one tower thing or something. I don't remember the details cause i haven't played it in over a year, but you fought these bosses that progressively got harder the higher you went. There was this one level where the dude was so hard it was like you were fighting another player. He'd attempt to cc you then burn you, get out of your cc's, counter you, everything. That shit was hard and you had to be on top of your shit to beat him. That's complex combat. WildStar is nowhere near what i'd call complex combat.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • t0nydt0nyd Member UncommonPosts: 510
    Rotations are lazy design. If there is a single best in all scenarios ability rotation that means there is no diversity. Abilities should have drawbacks or specific uses that are not always optimal. With the addition of damage to most crowd control you take choice away from the player. Why pick a pure cc or pure dmg ability when you can have the best of both in one ability. 



  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    edited June 2018
    t0nyd said:
    Rotations are lazy design. If there is a single best in all scenarios ability rotation that means there is no diversity. Abilities should have drawbacks or specific uses that are not always optimal. With the addition of damage to most crowd control you take choice away from the player. Why pick a pure cc or pure dmg ability when you can have the best of both in one ability. 



    Rotations isn't a design choice though. It's merely what min/maxer's have determined is the theoretical best use of your skills to obtain a theoretical maximum dps. Shit changes when you're actually thrown into a real fight.

    The theorycrafters are the ones that churn out "rotations" and post them on websites. It ain't the developers. Developers don't create skills to be used in some rotational basis. That's just a natural consequence of reality.

    When you're chopping wood, do you not lift the axe, aim, and swing it down every time you chop a piece of wood? Was the wood designed for that rotation that you're using with your body? No...it's just a natural consequence of reality that comes with chopping wood.

    As for why would anyone pick a pure cc or pure dmg ability when you can have the best of both worlds...well usually the best of both worlds = much longer cd for one. Just to give you an example from WoW. Demon Hunters have an aoe stun that does damage. It's on a 1 minute cd(might be 2 minutes). Warlocks have an aoe fear that does no damage and it's on a 40 second cd. Rogues have a single target incapacitate that does no damage and it doesn't have a cd at all.

    Cooldowns is the reason why people pick between those options.
    Iselin

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,199
    Dancing requires skill, sure, but at the same time, is the person skilled if all they can do is follow a pattern? I'd like to think true skill involves taking what you've learned and applying that as the situation demands. So I prefer reactionary combat as opposed to just scripted fights. I mean even FFXI did fights in a way which could be greatly influenced by the player if certain precautions weren't taken (at least in the early days). Go ahead and throw a bunch of melee on Nidhogg and watch as your group gets shredded simply because its being fed too much tp causing it to wing and terror non-stop. Also threat spikes simply because a Black Mage is doing too many magic bursts in a row. MMORPGs today (and probably the past decade) have been less about team synergy and more about the one-man-army approach. They aren't really team fights as much as they are "you do you and I'll do me until its dead." Team fights require people actually coordinating skills like buffs and debuffs to maximize group survivability and kill efficency.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,972
    In a world where gaming and the word complexity are not allowed to go together, any depth at all to MMO combat would be welcome.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,831
    Not sure I think it depends on the game. There are some games I enjoyed rotations and others where I found it limiting. Some games I found responding to the combat naturally was more fun and others where you could perform certain combos if you followed a pattern were also rewarding.

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited June 2018

    I like the L2, LoL, Darkensang, DS systems. So skills to be enchanted and the combinations to give additional effects, more effects with certain weapons, and weapons enchanting to provide additional skills and effects.

    Indeed, the abilities should be more specialized and specific, even ineffective in certain situations. 
  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 706
    Sephiroso said:
    simmihi said:
    I remember Age of Conan trying something "revolutionary" for that time, with directional attacks. I did not like it much, maybe also because it was new and I was not used to it, but for sure the main reason is that the game got me tired much faster than those with traditional combat. I changed to some priest class, they didn't have directional combat so problem solved.

    The main reason why I hated Wildstar was the same "combat complexity", with all the mobs having red telegraphs which you have to dodge. Not everyone likes extremely complex combat in MMO's.

    On the other hand, a game where the focus is the combat, like monster hunter, dauntless etc. would feel incomplete with just rotations. In conclusion, it depends on the game.
    Moving out of red circles/triangles is complex combat? To give an example of what i think complex combat is.

    Fighting Sephiroth in KH1. Dude was damn near impossible to beat. Also, in Blade and Soul, there was this one tower thing or something. I don't remember the details cause i haven't played it in over a year, but you fought these bosses that progressively got harder the higher you went. There was this one level where the dude was so hard it was like you were fighting another player. He'd attempt to cc you then burn you, get out of your cc's, counter you, everything. That shit was hard and you had to be on top of your shit to beat him. That's complex combat. WildStar is nowhere near what i'd call complex combat.
    By "combat complexity" I don't mean hard mobs and bosses. I fully agree that it's normal for raids and bosses etc to have telegraphs, mechanics etc. In Wildstar, every mob pack had that. It was just like watching a show of flashlights. In Age of Conan, everything had directional shields. It was tiring for me.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,147
    edited June 2018
    I see this as a "natural thing" from players. It's neither "good" nor "bad", it just is. We figure "the best way" and play it. The only way around it is one attack with a click :)

    PS: About the abilities being specific and good against a certain thing... I dislike that, or at least have not played game with a good implementation of this. It looks good in theory, but ends up being a pain in the ass, for me.

    This is one reason I like Fallout 3 better than Fallout New Vegas: Ammo types. I hate goiung into my inventory, switching out ammo, and trying to keep track of how much each specific type has left. I just end up with the "normal ammo" for the whole game, never bothering to switch it out.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,569
    Rotations have pro's and con's. On the one hand they allow the combat to have a natural flow, so the combat feels smooth. Then again, they get boring if you just mash the same 4 or 5 buttons endlessly.

    I've never been a fan of too many abilities. Wow made that mistake where you had 20+ skills or abilities and you never used half of them but some situational skills spice things up.

    Age of Conan as been mentioned a few times. I found the combat in AoC to be a lot of fun. Mobs would move their shields around forcing you to pick your attacks accordingly, or to change your position to land a finisher on the correct side. You could have a rotation in mind but you would never do your best DPS by just following the same routine. Then again you could just roll a ToS or a Demo.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    For one thing changing how NPCs fight would help. Can't remember the last time I avoid NPCs because they are bad match ups or vice versa. Mixing up NPC tactics could fix some stagnant rotations.
    AlBQuirky
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    I'd love to see rotations thrown out completely.  My Spidey senses says that it would require radical changes to combat in general that may end up feeling worse.

    For all the hate, I thought Wildstar's combat system was a great one.  I couldn't just stand there braindead face-mashing my keyboard for most of the fight.

    One of the reasons I err towards caster classes is because it's generally higher risk/reward due to their being squishy cannons.  These days, if I'm mashing a rotation, you're getting a 30-40 minute play session outta me tops before I hit quit and launch another game that doesn't include it.

    DPS is in a really sore spot with this honestly.  Whereas tanks must react appropriately to peel, healers must respond if a squishy takes shots, DPS literally is just "focus fire your rotation, rinse, repeat."

    Less emphasis needs to be placed on DPS in general, more on reactionary utility abilities.  The fact that raids/dungeons can even have a "DPS check" is, quite frankly, fucking stupid.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    The Grind and "Rotations" will always be a pillar that will be in MMORPGs. The best designs are how to mask them. 

    I have put tremendous amount of thought in how to negate or limit singular rotational gameplay or completely remove it. From a development stand point, that is very challenging to do. Unfortunately, rotations help the control of sequence of combat which in some ways helps balancing. There has to be "some" predictability or everything will be extremely chaotic. 

    The PROBLEM isn't rotational gameplay, the PROBLEM is that there is 1 rotation for most if not all aspects of the entirety of combat. 

    The best way to solve this problem is to develop a robust AI that keeps the player on their toes by negating singular rotational gameplay. The AI should have 3 distinct variables that they pull from to make the fight unique. 

    NPC Race: Determines how they behave in combat. Are they full on offensive? Do they counter more? Are they more apt to be more conservative and allow for more defense?

    NPC Class: This determines the toolkit in what abilities the NPC has access too. Depending on the NPC, they need to have more than 1 or 2 abilities. They need to have a library of abilities that they could potentially pull from. Perhaps, if there are 2 Orc Warriors, you know that they have access to certain abilities they can use against you, so you prepare appropriately. This would help combat becoming more engaging and a little more less predictable. 

    NPC AI Rank: This determines the level of difficulty of the NPC. A higher AI Rank determines a larger library of abilities the can pull from, as well as, have a higher chance to predict what you may use next in your "rotation". 

    By having a more robust AI and having NPC's being more engaged in combat, would help negate Rotational gameplay being bland and stale. It would promote more variety and better replayability. So, players may have certain ability "sets" they save for certain NPCs, ect. That way there may be multiple rotations you will learn as you fight different types of NPCs. 





  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    I'd love to see rotations thrown out completely.  My Spidey senses says that it would require radical changes to combat in general that may end up feeling worse.

    For all the hate, I thought Wildstar's combat system was a great one.  I couldn't just stand there braindead face-mashing my keyboard for most of the fight.

    One of the reasons I err towards caster classes is because it's generally higher risk/reward due to their being squishy cannons.  These days, if I'm mashing a rotation, you're getting a 30-40 minute play session outta me tops before I hit quit and launch another game that doesn't include it.

    DPS is in a really sore spot with this honestly.  Whereas tanks must react appropriately to peel, healers must respond if a squishy takes shots, DPS literally is just "focus fire your rotation, rinse, repeat."

    Less emphasis needs to be placed on DPS in general, more on reactionary utility abilities.  The fact that raids/dungeons can even have a "DPS check" is, quite frankly, fucking stupid.
    What game lets you just stand in one spot braindead face mashing your keyboard for most of the fight in end game? Leveling in wildstar was just as easy as other mmorpgs including the low lvl dungeons.

    Dps is not just "focus fire your rotation, rinse, repeat". I can tell you don't actually do endgame content at all, at least not in WoW. Tanking is probably the easiest job out of the 3 of tanking, healing and dpsing. Tanking is almost by definition on a pure rotation. The bosses use their abilities in a rotational basis to the point you can time it down to the second. A tank merely needs to use their cooldowns at the right time and they win. The only marginally hard thing a tank then has to do comes down to positioning/tank swaps and positioning isn't really even all that hard, important..but how hard is it to go to a specific spot and stand there or run around the room counter clockwise?

    Healing is almost entirely reactionary/planning. You have to react to people fucking up and also know ahead of time when big damage is coming out but what makes healing hard is primarily reacting to people fucking up and make sure they don't die(or the morons who ignore mechanics because healers).

    Dps are the main ones that have to do mechanics in a fight. Tanks/healers usually only have to focus on their job, dps have to not only dps but also do the vast majority of the mechanics in the fight. Take Guldan in Nighthold. Who do you think went to save the players from empowered bonds of fel? Dps. Who was on interrupt duty for the the demon summoned by hand of guldan? Dps. Who had to interrupt/kill the eyes from the Eye of Guldan? Dps. Who made sure the well of souls was empty? Dps. Most of the mechanics were mechanics that were handled by dps.

    Most DPS checks are really just reactionary checks. Most DPS checks simply come down to "Do you have X amount of players still alive? Good job, you win. So it's basically, don't die and you win and not "do wtfbbqdps and you win"
    Iselin

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,551
    Is there an example of a game that doesn't have proper rotations?

    I can understand reactionary skills but in general even rotations have those. There will always be the most effective method of using your skills in a certain order, even in action games so there will always be rotations. Unless I missed a game where there wasn't a most efficient way of playing. 
    AlBQuirky
Sign In or Register to comment.