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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited May 2018

    Game Features


    • Enjoy a Lore-rich and deeply complex world where environmental storytelling is central.
    • Immerse yourself in group-focused, intensely social game play using classes that complement each other, encouraging teamwork.
    • Make use of Colored Mana to give your spells flavor and variety.
    • Battle the harsh climates of the world—it can, and will, affect your character.
    • Play classes that have meaningful and defined roles such as Tank, Healer, DPS or Utility (crowd and encounter control). Class identity and group interdependence is key!
    • Choose from a variety of races to play, delve into their epic back-stories and learn of the Celestials who may have been brought to Terminus with them.
    • Discover meaningful questing that is optional, not the primary means of character advancement.
    • Watch the population evolve around you as different NPCs and beasts may change depending on your past actions.
    • Carry on your legacy with progeny—retire a character and have his or her child resume the adventure
    • Rely on your senses as your character’s own intuition may lead you to important discoveries.
    • Learn that limited and class based teleportation may get you close, but in order to reach many destinations you will have to traverse the realm-scarred lands of Terminus through the use of your own two feet, on the back of your mighty steed or even across the seas themselves.
    • Quickly equip situational gear as you move from one climate to the next.
    • Take part in an economy that is largely player driven.
    • Find convenience in dual targeting. Attack your target while healing your allies.
    • Respect your surroundings—succumbing to death has its consequences.
    http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/

    where is sandbox again?

    Ok, I'll bite.  
    FAQs
    20.8 What does Pantheon have to offer a fan of the sandbox style game?

    Pantheon is definitely more open world and ‘sandboxy’ than many MMOs, but it is still at its core a game system, not a true sandbox sans rules. But the key point is that you can go where you want to go, take on whatever you want to take on (though you may die trying), and travel to wherever you can see (assuming you don't freeze to death en route). So, the decisions are yours -- you are not being led around by the game on rails, with only so many options or decision points.


    Sandbox vs. Themepark


    You create a sandbox and then you put a 'themepark' in that sandbox.  That way your foundation is there both for 1. more sandboxy play to evolve before and after launch and 2. you can put other themeparks into your sandbox without bringing down a house of cards.


    Bottom line though:  A pure sandbox isn't really a game.  Pantheon is definitely influenced by our desire to head in the sandbox direction, but a pure sandbox is not what we're looking for.  Rather, while you shouldn't feel you're on rails, going through quest hubs, forced to follow 1-2 paths, etc, there's still Pantheon the game that sits within the sandbox foundation.  Then, by making sure we have such a foundation, we can not just vertically add content (expansions, new regions to explore, new classes and races, etc.) but also horizontally begin to offer advancement paths beyond your typical adventure focus.
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/181/sandbox-vs-themepark

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    I don't see any sandbox or pvp here.


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    edited May 2018
    Sandbox has never been defined as pvp.   never.
    Sandbox and theme park are the two ends of the same spectrum.
    If all you do is quest then its themepark.  If all you do is camp and kill then its sandbox.
    Pantheon will have both but more camp and kill than quest - so its sandbox.
    Justsomenoob
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,578
    edited May 2018
    svann said:
    Sandbox and theme park are the two ends of the same spectrum.
    If all you do is quest then its themepark.  If all you do is camp and kill then its sandbox.
    Pantheon will have both but more camp and kill than quest - so its sandbox.
    No. Sanbox and themepark are two ends of the same spectrum, but the spectrum is completing events designed by the developer vs. using tools provided by the developer to make your own events.

    If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay.

    If you move in an open area with a lot of mobs and keep making decisions where to go and which mobs you want to engage on your own without dev guidance that's sandbox gameplay.

    Pantheon will have both quests and free grinding, but I think the dungeons which are theme park tip the scales and will make it more of a theme park experience.
    Post edited by Vrika on
    TwoTubes
     
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 287
    Back in the day Ultima Online was a decent sandbox style MMORPG. I not sure about the current version but I assume it stayed the same. It did have dungeons which have nothing to do with rather the game is a sandbox or themepark style game.
     Themepark games are ones in which you don't have to think about what to do next as you have a quest telling you. Sandbox games are ones in which you stand there and have to decide yourself what to do next as you have no quest or anything else in game telling you what to do.
    svannOctagon7711d_20
  • EQN13EQN13 Member UncommonPosts: 26
    I really want to back this game because I really love EQ1 (vanguard could have been good if not for Sony) I am even playing on a Progression server right now thru DBG. 
    I really enjoy that type of grouping combat that only comes with games like EQ and Pantheon. 
    I think I want to do the $250 pack just so I can Alpha test the game. 
    Not that I want to part with that much money, but if Pantheon actually releases (which brad might just take everyone's money and run a year from now) I think it will bring in nearly everyone from EQ1, EQ2 and a lot of people like me who have been playing WoW, GW2, etc just looking for that next big game. 
    As of now, since wow just wants me to rep grind, I am back in EQ1. The graphics don't bother me at all. The BAD part about pantheon is: If it does release, it's a LONG WAYS off. like I am talking 2021 release.  Brad has a very small team. What takes Blizzard 8 weeks, takes Brad/Pantheon closer to  8 months. I love the streams they show. Great selling tool. But if you notice, they haven't shown a single rock on the "2nd" continent(Reinfall). Everything is on KingsReach. 

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    I'll wait for beta and see what people who play the alpha say.  Don't know about this one.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,158
    edited May 2018
    There is a very big difference between the levels of niche of the various projects you mentioned. When looking at a game like Darkfall you have the niche of pvp, then open world pvp, then open world non consensual pvp, then the niche of full loot on top of all of those. There are more even that I could go into, but saying that one niche project is even remotely the same as another is wrong.

    Pantheon's niche(s) is quite different and extends to a vastly larger player base than something like Darkfall.

    Rise of Agon, since it was brought up, seems to have realized this and are moving away from some of the niche components or at least easing the pain in them.

    FWIW I think Pantheon is going to do just fine as long as they can make it to release.
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    Vrika said:
    No. Sanbox and themepark are two ends of the same spectrum, but the spectrum is completing events designed by the developer vs. using tools provided by the developer to make your own events.

    If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay.

    If you move in an open area with a lot of mobs and keep making decisions where to go and which mobs you want to engage on your own without dev guidance that's sandbox gameplay.

    Pantheon will have both quests and free grinding, but I think the dungeons which are theme park tip the scales and will make it more of a theme park experience.
    Where did this definition even come from?
    "If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay."

    What? ^
    I understand there can be some variations in the definition, but this is just poorly defined.

    Sinsaisvann
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,158
    edited May 2018
    While not a full blown "Sandbox" game, EQ did have some sand and I'm sure Pantheon will have even more. Waiting for this one ;)
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,578
    TwoTubes said:
    Vrika said:
    No. Sanbox and themepark are two ends of the same spectrum, but the spectrum is completing events designed by the developer vs. using tools provided by the developer to make your own events.

    If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay.

    If you move in an open area with a lot of mobs and keep making decisions where to go and which mobs you want to engage on your own without dev guidance that's sandbox gameplay.

    Pantheon will have both quests and free grinding, but I think the dungeons which are theme park tip the scales and will make it more of a theme park experience.
    Where did this definition even come from?
    "If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay."

    What? ^
    I understand there can be some variations in the definition, but this is just poorly defined.

    That was not my attempt at definition, it was an attempt to describe that theme park isn't limited to questing. Running a dungeon corridor is theme-park because the devs have placed events (enemy encounters) that you must complete in certain order. Killing a boss is also a theme-park activity designed for you by the devs.

    Sandbox gameplay has more freedom than those.
     
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Theme park games like ESO it's possible to level without doing any quests, yes, it would take a lot longer but it's possible to explore and grind your way up or just quests you come across without doing the main story.  I think a few MMO's are trying to tick all the boxes to get the most people to play.  So they provide something for everyone buy blurring the lines.  Pantheon is saying they want a little of both and not just the classical definitions, I think.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 287
    Vrika said:
    svann said:
    Sandbox and theme park are the two ends of the same spectrum.
    If all you do is quest then its themepark.  If all you do is camp and kill then its sandbox.
    Pantheon will have both but more camp and kill than quest - so its sandbox.
    No. Sanbox and themepark are two ends of the same spectrum, but the spectrum is completing events designed by the developer vs. using tools provided by the developer to make your own events.

    If you do a quest designed by the devs, if you try to reach end of the dungeon designed by the devs, or if you kill a boss placed by the devs that's themepark gameplay.

    If you move in an open area with a lot of mobs and keep making decisions where to go and which mobs you want to engage on your own without dev guidance that's sandbox gameplay.

    Pantheon will have both quests and free grinding, but I think the dungeons which are theme park tip the scales and will make it more of a theme park experience.
    Well if a game has a dungeon then it be designed by the devs and I assume all of them will have an end. If you have to kill X mob to open a door or something to get to the next area and so on then I agree that is a themepark style design.  If the dungeon is more open like the early EQ ones were and you could where ever you wanted in the place including to the boss and only have to worry about what every mobs you aggro along the way then it is not a themepark design.
     Same goes for the boss mobs, if the game has any boss mobs then they will have been placed by a developer. I assume its ok for sandbox games to have bosses (UO had a dragon that I remember). Or are you saying everything has to be the same like level 10 bunnies for it a sandbox and no "Bugs the Terror" boss bunny?
    svann
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Pantheon is just meant to be more of a "choose your own adventure", like Everquest. They are using sandbox loosely, but it's not a themepark either - nor was EQ. There is no set path, you just forge your own way. In EQ, you could level 20 characters to max without using the same area twice. You can 100% adventure and kill monsters, or engage in other things like commerce/crafting or roleplay.
    TwoTubes said:
    The niche game that Pantheon was marketed as a few years back is totally out the window at this point.  It is full on main stream.

    The original budget was thought to be enough with a much smaller playerbase than what the game will have on release so that gives me hope.  I'm guessing after a few months a lot of people leave because they don't like a game with harsh penalties.  Most people who didn't play mmos heavily prior to 2004 haven't had the chance to play a slow paced game with harsh penalties.  It won't be for everyone and I believe many will realize its not for them a couple months in and there will be a mass exodus.  Hopefully the niche group that is left will be enough to sustain the game.  It was thought to be enough 4-5 years ago in early development.

    ^This is fake news. Pantheon's vision has not changed.
    svannRaidan_EQ


  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    edited May 2018
    There is a very big difference between the levels of niche of the various projects you mentioned. When looking at a game like Darkfall you have the niche of pvp, then open world pvp, then open world non consensual pvp, then the niche of full loot on top of all of those. There are more even that I could go into, but saying that one niche project is even remotely the same as another is wrong.

    Pantheon's niche(s) is quite different and extends to a vastly larger player base than something like Darkfall.

    Rise of Agon, since it was brought up, seems to have realized this and are moving away from some of the niche components or at least easing the pain in them.

    FWIW I think Pantheon is going to do just fine as long as they can make it to release.
    You raise a fair point that my comparison of the DF:ROA niche with Pantheon may not be sound due to important differences in the level if "nicheness."

    And I hope you are right that there will be a large base of interested players. 

    My main concern is that the current generation of players (and many old school players) may not take to the pace of combat in the end. I hope there is enough interest to support the game in its continued development and growth after its eventual (hopefully) launch. It does look like a worthy project and I would love to experience this type of game even if it doesn't turn out to be my thing in the long run. I won't know until I try.

    Ultimately, it seems that this game will succeed or fail based on the community it attracts. This is the main draw for me. I think the community that winds up at the core of this game will be great and welcoming to new players who aren't familiar with the old ways. I hope it doesn't veer into elitism, etc. 


  • shassellshassell Member UncommonPosts: 105
    An interesting, immersive game world is what I miss from the old games. With the current trend for world mob scaling it has taken away from the credibility and fun of the game world. As much as an online world can be considered realistic. I miss the old Kithicor woods type zones, where you were terrified to travel until you gained a few levels. I miss having dreaded NPCs who you could have the pleasure of returning to, to kick their butt in revenge for all the corpse runs.

    I liked the fact that a bear might drop a high quality skin you could make a bag from. It does tend to stretch credibility in modern games when killing a sparkling pigling results in it dropping a suit of plate mail.

    Waiting patiently with wifey for this game and hopefully a return to meaningful grouping and a return to online socialising with new in game friends.

    However did it become so sad in modern games as to consider chat in group as bad mannered noobism.
  • CendhariaCendharia Member UncommonPosts: 319
    Vrika said:
    I'd advice against backing a this point in time: Even their cheapest game package costs $50, and it doesn't come with any special goodies.

    Usually games give you more for your money if you buy years in advance of getting to actually play the game, but Pantheon does not. It looks like they've got funding from other sources so they don't really need your backing, and since they aren't giving any good discounts or goodies you don't need to back now either.

    It's better to just wait and see and make your decisions later.
    I'm a backer..and have been so since just after the Kickstarter,  have seen a lot of progression thus far,  and its just in pre-alpha state.   I'm quite excited about this game world, and the community that follows it.    I made my choice, and am happy with it.   It suffered some growing pains in the beginning..but its pretty solid now.  :)   Up to each person what choices they make.  :)
    d_20
  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923
    Rhoklaw said:
    While VR have made claims that Pantheon is in fact suited for a niche market, I think it will have a pretty decent following. I've messed around on Project 99, which is a EQ private server and there's just something magical about older games to me. It's less about flashy graphics and twitched based combat and focuses more on the traditional aspects of table top RPG, such as dungeon crawling, exploration, grouping and experiencing great adventures that aren't littered with things that go against immersion.
    Interesting that project 99 is brought up
    Often I  see it is stated as a popular game
    For a private server answer is yes
    It runs off donations and volunteers 
    However at 1200-1500 at peak and has a single server  had it been a new product it was be a massive failure
    Pantheon  is using  a lot of original EQ(as it was back in those days) mechanics and rule set
    Question is would  people buy into this  and more importantly stay on 
    If you think about it EQ made time locked progression servers and the first one tried to copy it was it was in 1999 apart from the corpse run(apparently it was too hard to do it again from a technical point of view) and the nostalgia trip ended fast and they has since had loads of adjustment on newer servers(i played all but 2 of this type of servers).
    Anyhow time will tell
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    edited May 2018
    EQ has had several progression servers, and plans for more.  They are popular enough that they keep making them - and with different rule sets for each one that takes some dev investment. 
  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923
    svann said:
    EQ has had several progression servers, and plans for more.  They are popular enough that they keep making them - and with different rule sets for each one that takes some dev investment. 
    to be honest as someone who been in and out EQ is on life support and rely on selling half finished low content  expansions for silly prices(as does EQ2) every year .
    Yes the EQ TLP does bring income(otherwise why do them) but it relies on initial subs and selling those overpriced bag which without the  classic and even the next expansion(kunark) is very hard to play  due to weight .
    Try playing a monk without one when a TLP launches and cry!
    After the first few months the TLP starts to die a very fast death even with the newer ones quality of life changes (prior to that the ones closer to the original experience died even faster- esp. those with no instancing of raids).
    That is why they open them 1 a year on average  .People come and leave very fast and this servers become ghost server - fippy which even merged with vulak  relies on guilds(actually think only 1-2 even bother in recent times) coming from live server to do raids to unlock the next expansion.
    lockjaw and ragefire are similar story and this server are not even 3 years old.
    So yes the TLP brings income to daybreak but it is likely not much esp. compared to say H1Z1 for them and very short lived thus the rapid inclusion of new TLP servers.
    So all I can say is that you need to ensure pantheon is a game with the spirit of EQ  but modern  quality of life changes.
    People may come for the nostalgia but you got to give them a reason to stay .
    I will not start a debate on things i feel will hurt the game badly due to sticking to way things  were nearly 20 years ago and it will be interesting to see how things pan out 3-6 months post launch  when the nostalgia wears off.
    I am sure the devs have thought about it and will make the right choice.

    blueturtle13
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    svann said:
    EQ has had several progression servers, and plans for more.  They are popular enough that they keep making them - and with different rule sets for each one that takes some dev investment. 
    I would add to that, that EQ is a 18 y/o game.....18!
    We can't expect millions of people playing an 18 y/o game, we need to be realistic.
    I love EQ, but I can't stand how clunky the game feels.
    I need new UI, GUI, some QoL features, and modern graphic.
    All things I hope Pantheon will provide.
    Zorlofe
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    I don't think you should be expecting much from EQ live servers.  TLP or otherwise.  As noted above, it is almost 20 years old, but more than that it hasn't been the same game for about 15 years.

    It is not "the EQ" that people refer to when they remember "EQ".  That game ended around 2004 (some people might have slightly different opinions on when the game changed, but we can all agree it is not anywhere near the same).  P99 is a slightly more accurate version of what EQ was but even it is so far off that most comparisons to early EQ are poor.

    Become a backer or not. All specifics aside, and knowing that Pantheon will be its own unique game, we can hope that Pantheon will have the general feel of early EQ and not end up like later EQ.  That is a pretty good line to draw for those that have played both time frames of EQ heavily enough to understand the differences.

    svann
  • MarknMarkn Member UncommonPosts: 278
    TwoTubes said:
    I don't think you should be expecting much from EQ live servers.  TLP or otherwise.  As noted above, it is almost 20 years old, but more than that it hasn't been the same game for about 15 years.

    It is not "the EQ" that people refer to when they remember "EQ".  That game ended around 2004 (some people might have slightly different opinions on when the game changed, but we can all agree it is not anywhere near the same).  P99 is a slightly more accurate version of what EQ was but even it is so far off that most comparisons to early EQ are poor.

    Become a backer or not. All specifics aside, and knowing that Pantheon will be its own unique game, we can hope that Pantheon will have the general feel of early EQ and not end up like later EQ.  That is a pretty good line to draw for those that have played both time frames of EQ heavily enough to understand the differences.

    The truth is EQs population from 99-02 wasn't that big.   I would bet a lot of the people who claim EQ was awesome from 99-02 dont even remember the game back then and wouldn't play it past the first corpse run today.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    The worst problem in game design resides within this thread.

    Cater to making money and the newish gamer crowd who really don't want a rpg but want a simple loot dungeon runner or make a HQ mmorpg.IMO the answer is going to be build the cheaper,faster,less depth,lower quality dungeon loot runner.Sad because it means we likely will NEVER see anotehr HQ mmorpg,nobody will build it and not enough will play it to warrant the cost and time to build it.
    Then to further discourage a develoepr,they simply look at what is making money,what is popular,VERY low budget crap like the LOL..DOTA...ARPGS,PUBG,Fortnite's all super crap game designs but people want that simple easy to jump in pvp and not HQ DEEP games.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MarknMarkn Member UncommonPosts: 278
    Wizardry said:
    The worst problem in game design resides within this thread.

    Cater to making money and the newish gamer crowd who really don't want a rpg but want a simple loot dungeon runner or make a HQ mmorpg.IMO the answer is going to be build the cheaper,faster,less depth,lower quality dungeon loot runner.Sad because it means we likely will NEVER see anotehr HQ mmorpg,nobody will build it and not enough will play it to warrant the cost and time to build it.
    Then to further discourage a develoepr,they simply look at what is making money,what is popular,VERY low budget crap like the LOL..DOTA...ARPGS,PUBG,Fortnite's all super crap game designs but people want that simple easy to jump in pvp and not HQ DEEP games.
    Game Design isnt the problem.  This generation of gamers that want instant gratification is it has to be easy and quick or they just move onto something else. 
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