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Webzen to Discontinue Service in The Netherlands Over Loot Box Ruling - Mu Origin- MMORPG.com

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Aeander said:
    DMKano said:
    JeroKane said:
    DMKano said:
    Elvoc said:
    Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..

    The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.

    This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters

    Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that

    Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.


    The Netherlands isn't the US ( I am from Holland ). It has nothing to do with election (since there isn't one for a long while) nor politics.

    It's the government finally taking action against gambling targeted against kids!

    Loot boxes is the worst kind of monetization that has invaded the gaming market!

    Netherlands and Belgium will be the first to take action, but it will soon be an EU wide legislation.

    Then these crap companies will sing a different tune.

    I have absolutely nothing against F2P games with ingame cash shops for cosmetic stuff, etc.

    Loot boxes however! I absolutely hate with a passion! Since it specifically targets people with a gambling addiction! It has no place in games!

    Let gambling stay where it always was. Inside casino's!


    PS. Webzen is a terrible company with a notorious reputation anyway. So I hardly doubt people in Holland will cry over it lol.


    I don't live in Holland and I doubt that everyone in Holland shares your sentiment.

    I don't have a problem with gambling IRL nor in video games at all, so lootboxes don't bother me one bit.

    I don't believe that lootboxes are targeting kids - it's targeting everyone who plays games - it's a not kid specific mechanics - so I disagree with this notion that it's "gambling targeting kids"

    Lootboxes are not the worst kind of monetization - as not all lootboxes are implemented the same way, it's a scale - some are much worse than others. 

    You are obviously biased against lootboxes and gambling - but that's just your opinion. The entire world does not feel like this nor are the laws the same - the state that I live allows social gambling, as long as the house is not taking a cut - I can invite friends over to my place and we can gamble with real money - no problem.

    I enjoy to have this freedom as an adult - the idea that I can't gamble in my own home with my own friends and family is just insane to me.

    I don't think that gambling should be only in Casinos - I disagree with that 100%.


    There are far worse things than gambling - heck look at alcohol and tobacco - they do far more harm to billions of people globally than gambling and lootboxes and the world is just fine how they are controlled.

    But lootboxes - lol - just outright ban those?

    Why not put in restrictions just like on alcohol and tobacco? Those are not banned outright.

    As an adult I prefer to have options open to me and not have the government decide what I can and can't do - especially when it comes to something as harmless as lootboxes in games.




    Alcohol and tobacco have age restrictions. Gambling also has an age restriction. How do you propose that an age restriction be placed on lootboxes? 

    Age ratings mean nothing these days. Kids routinely play Grand Theft Auto and other mature games because most people rightly do not care about moralization in media and have become more open to mature themes.

    Disabling purchases to underage players is also impractical. It is easy to lie on an age verification for any online video game. That lie doesn't void the game developer of their legal responsibility not to commit an illegal sale. If a teenager walks into a Walmart and tells the cashier he is 21, the cashier isn't suddenly authorized to sell them alcohol; they have to id and cover their tracks legally. To achieve a similar level of legal restriction and protection in an online game would require downright draconian identification systems that potentially expose players to identity theft - such as the Chinese system of registering Chinese social security numbers to game accounts.

    In other words, restriction isn't just unsatisfactory in this case - it's actually logistically impossible.
    The same way online gambling restriction underage people from playing. You list age restricted items and then claim there isn't a way to do that. Nice try, but no. People leak through validation systems in meatspace just like virtual space too.
    SBFord
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited May 2018
    moshra said:
    So they're just gonna abandon tens of people over loot box ruling?
    Making a modification for 'tens of people' is not cost effective. So it is understandable for Webzen to withdraw from that market.

    But on the Dutch side the reaction (if they even notice) is more likely to be a hearty 'mission accomplished' rather than a wringing of hands and OMG! what have we done.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    Aeander said:
    DMKano said:
    JeroKane said:
    DMKano said:
    Elvoc said:
    Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..

    The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.

    This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters

    Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that

    Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.


    The Netherlands isn't the US ( I am from Holland ). It has nothing to do with election (since there isn't one for a long while) nor politics.

    It's the government finally taking action against gambling targeted against kids!

    Loot boxes is the worst kind of monetization that has invaded the gaming market!

    Netherlands and Belgium will be the first to take action, but it will soon be an EU wide legislation.

    Then these crap companies will sing a different tune.

    I have absolutely nothing against F2P games with ingame cash shops for cosmetic stuff, etc.

    Loot boxes however! I absolutely hate with a passion! Since it specifically targets people with a gambling addiction! It has no place in games!

    Let gambling stay where it always was. Inside casino's!


    PS. Webzen is a terrible company with a notorious reputation anyway. So I hardly doubt people in Holland will cry over it lol.


    I don't live in Holland and I doubt that everyone in Holland shares your sentiment.

    I don't have a problem with gambling IRL nor in video games at all, so lootboxes don't bother me one bit.

    I don't believe that lootboxes are targeting kids - it's targeting everyone who plays games - it's a not kid specific mechanics - so I disagree with this notion that it's "gambling targeting kids"

    Lootboxes are not the worst kind of monetization - as not all lootboxes are implemented the same way, it's a scale - some are much worse than others. 

    You are obviously biased against lootboxes and gambling - but that's just your opinion. The entire world does not feel like this nor are the laws the same - the state that I live allows social gambling, as long as the house is not taking a cut - I can invite friends over to my place and we can gamble with real money - no problem.

    I enjoy to have this freedom as an adult - the idea that I can't gamble in my own home with my own friends and family is just insane to me.

    I don't think that gambling should be only in Casinos - I disagree with that 100%.


    There are far worse things than gambling - heck look at alcohol and tobacco - they do far more harm to billions of people globally than gambling and lootboxes and the world is just fine how they are controlled.

    But lootboxes - lol - just outright ban those?

    Why not put in restrictions just like on alcohol and tobacco? Those are not banned outright.

    As an adult I prefer to have options open to me and not have the government decide what I can and can't do - especially when it comes to something as harmless as lootboxes in games.




    Alcohol and tobacco have age restrictions. Gambling also has an age restriction. How do you propose that an age restriction be placed on lootboxes? 

    Age ratings mean nothing these days. Kids routinely play Grand Theft Auto and other mature games because most people rightly do not care about moralization in media and have become more open to mature themes.

    Disabling purchases to underage players is also impractical. It is easy to lie on an age verification for any online video game. That lie doesn't void the game developer of their legal responsibility not to commit an illegal sale. If a teenager walks into a Walmart and tells the cashier he is 21, the cashier isn't suddenly authorized to sell them alcohol; they have to id and cover their tracks legally. To achieve a similar level of legal restriction and protection in an online game would require downright draconian identification systems that potentially expose players to identity theft - such as the Chinese system of registering Chinese social security numbers to game accounts.

    In other words, restriction isn't just unsatisfactory in this case - it's actually logistically impossible.

    Parenting.

    Parents have no responsibility what their kids do and how they spend money?


    As a parent - when my kids come and ask me for a purchase in a video game - we talk about it, there's a discussion that happens so that everyone understands what is going on.

    TorvalKyleran
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited May 2018
    moshra said:
    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.
    And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods.  Video games are a business.  They are made to make money.  If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it.  Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.
    Actually it is often a good thing. That is why governments all over the world restrict and or regulate the supply of a good many things. Making and enforcing such rules, for the common good, is one of the major reasons we have governments in the first place.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.


    I don't work for any game company.

    My company works with video game companies and other entertainment companies.

    Lootboxes need regulations - they don't need a ban.

    Gambling already has regulations in place, as an adult I don't want to see gambling banned.


    We can do better by leaving options in place and letting adults make up their own decisions.

    And let parents actually do parenting.

    Yep we can do better
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126
    edited May 2018
    DMKano said:

    Parenting.

    Parents have no responsibility what their kids do and how they spend money?

    As a parent - when my kids come and ask me for a purchase in a video game - we talk about it, there's a discussion that happens so that everyone understands what is going on.

    This 100%. As a longtime teacher, I can't tell you how many parents want to abdicate their duties raising children to "the state" until Little Bobby or Tiny Tina get in trouble and then suddenly many of them suddenly give a darn.

    I'm not a huge fan of loot boxes and think that some measures should be taken, but I also believe that it is ultimately the parents' responsibility to ensure their kids are playing age-appropriate games. If they're found to be underage, then it should be turned back on the parents. A few cases like that would stop a lot of this nonsense without restricting adults from engaging in loot box gambling if that's their choice.

    Children don't automatically know right from wrong, good choices from bad. They need to be taught, hopefully by involved, caring parents who want to see them succeed in life. Those who choose to let their underage kids engage in games with loot boxes that are properly regulated (odds revealed, etc.) and who are caught should be held accountable. 

    I want to parent my child, not the government.

    And, no. I don't buy them, but I enjoy earning them in games that offer them through gameplay.
    Torval


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,775
    DMKano said:
    Elvoc said:
    Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..

    The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.

    This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters

    Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that

    Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.


    I would be amazed if this idea even featured in the decision regarding loot boxes. In the US whether gambling is legal or not may be an election issue but this is not an issue in the EU. Nor is the issue of controlling gambling or the issue of protecting minors. All three of these are "accepted" and have been for centuries. (Arguably its on of the reasons that contributed to the "Pilgrim Fathers" leaving "godless" England; gambling having been legalized in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I - and taxed!
    craftseeker
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,775
    Elvoc said:
    Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..
    Nope.

    Do you believe that gambling can - can not will - lead to potential problems? Inclusing - but not limited to - addiction, depression, crime brought about my lack of money needed to feed the addiction. Crime which - by default - will impact other people. So this is "other people" i.e. society - trying to protect itself my "cutting the odds" of the problem happening. 
    craftseekermastersam21
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,288
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 
    craftseeker
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    edited May 2018
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 

    I know right  you are ok with putting bans that in this case are resulting in gamers having less choice.

    The fact is there are Dutch players who cant play MU Legends, regardless of what you think about webzen and their games - removing choice from gamers is a bad outcome.

    But as long as its the companies you deem personally as crap - its all fine, eh?

    Screw those who feel differently, because hey the government knows best
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,288
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 

    I know right  you are ok with putting bans that in this case are resulting in gamers having less choice.

    The fact is there are Dutch players who cant play MU Legends, regardless of what you think about webzen and their games - removing choice from gamers is a bad outcome.

    But as long as its the companies you deem personally as crap - its all fine, eh?

    Screw those who feel differently, because hey the government knows best
    I'm impressed that you as a Texan have so much sympathy for dutch players and how hard done by they are by their repressive government.

    This is over and above your own self interest of wanting to sell them shit, right?
    craftseeker
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971
    I don't understand the thinking from what seems to be the majority of members of this site - that loot boxes are bad. If the majority of people don't like them and didn't support the games that included them the problem would be solved. If people buy and enjoy something what right do others have of demanding governments stop them from buying things they like? If you're saying it ruins games you like, why do you like ruined games that cater to people doing things you don't like? It seems like extremely entitled and sophomoric thinking. Stop playing games with loot boxes and only support games without them. Then your problem would go away for you. And if enough people did it, it would go away for everyone. If you are too immature, or lack the willpower to not play games you claim dislike or support company's whose practices you dislike, you are way more part of the core problem than anyone who buys loot boxes - and using government force to impose your beliefs on others just exacerbates the real problem.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971

    Aeander said:


    DMKano said:


    JeroKane said:


    DMKano said:


    Elvoc said:

    Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..



    The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.

    This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters

    Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that

    Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.



    The Netherlands isn't the US ( I am from Holland ). It has nothing to do with election (since there isn't one for a long while) nor politics.

    It's the government finally taking action against gambling targeted against kids!

    Loot boxes is the worst kind of monetization that has invaded the gaming market!

    Netherlands and Belgium will be the first to take action, but it will soon be an EU wide legislation.

    Then these crap companies will sing a different tune.

    I have absolutely nothing against F2P games with ingame cash shops for cosmetic stuff, etc.

    Loot boxes however! I absolutely hate with a passion! Since it specifically targets people with a gambling addiction! It has no place in games!

    Let gambling stay where it always was. Inside casino's!


    PS. Webzen is a terrible company with a notorious reputation anyway. So I hardly doubt people in Holland will cry over it lol.




    I don't live in Holland and I doubt that everyone in Holland shares your sentiment.

    I don't have a problem with gambling IRL nor in video games at all, so lootboxes don't bother me one bit.

    I don't believe that lootboxes are targeting kids - it's targeting everyone who plays games - it's a not kid specific mechanics - so I disagree with this notion that it's "gambling targeting kids"

    Lootboxes are not the worst kind of monetization - as not all lootboxes are implemented the same way, it's a scale - some are much worse than others. 

    You are obviously biased against lootboxes and gambling - but that's just your opinion. The entire world does not feel like this nor are the laws the same - the state that I live allows social gambling, as long as the house is not taking a cut - I can invite friends over to my place and we can gamble with real money - no problem.

    I enjoy to have this freedom as an adult - the idea that I can't gamble in my own home with my own friends and family is just insane to me.

    I don't think that gambling should be only in Casinos - I disagree with that 100%.


    There are far worse things than gambling - heck look at alcohol and tobacco - they do far more harm to billions of people globally than gambling and lootboxes and the world is just fine how they are controlled.

    But lootboxes - lol - just outright ban those?

    Why not put in restrictions just like on alcohol and tobacco? Those are not banned outright.

    As an adult I prefer to have options open to me and not have the government decide what I can and can't do - especially when it comes to something as harmless as lootboxes in games.






    Alcohol and tobacco have age restrictions. Gambling also has an age restriction. How do you propose that an age restriction be placed on lootboxes? 

    Age ratings mean nothing these days. Kids routinely play Grand Theft Auto and other mature games because most people rightly do not care about moralization in media and have become more open to mature themes.

    Disabling purchases to underage players is also impractical. It is easy to lie on an age verification for any online video game. That lie doesn't void the game developer of their legal responsibility not to commit an illegal sale. If a teenager walks into a Walmart and tells the cashier he is 21, the cashier isn't suddenly authorized to sell them alcohol; they have to id and cover their tracks legally. To achieve a similar level of legal restriction and protection in an online game would require downright draconian identification systems that potentially expose players to identity theft - such as the Chinese system of registering Chinese social security numbers to game accounts.

    In other words, restriction isn't just unsatisfactory in this case - it's actually logistically impossible.



    I agree in theory, but not in practice. My kids love watching people play games more than actually playing a game, because kids nowadays are weird and their brains don't work right. But, they hate watching me play my games. Why? Because I like games with adult mechanics that are too complex for children. FO 3 and 4 may have been rated as mature, but even the stupidest kid can pick it up, figure it out in a second, and play it successfully. There is a zero chance kids could pick up and play FO 1 and 2. Not until they are working age and could buy the game themselves.

    I would 100% support any legislation that did not allow loot boxes in games that kids can play, and consider all those games kids games. It really bothers me so many adults that consider themselves gamers play the same games as six and seven year olds. That's like playing T-Ball and considering yourself an athlete. Play baseball man, like a real person. Grow up and have some pride. And having swears, fake killings, and naked women in T-Ball doesn't make it mature - it just makes it sad.


    When I was twelve I was able to buy books on gambling, drugs, the Anarchists cook book, etc. As far as I know there is no actual word book kids of any age can buy? Why? Games are the same. What we have now is games are Dr. Sues books about gambling, sex, and illegal drug use. Its better to keep the kid books clean and realize, like we always have and still do, any kid smart enough to read Clavell or Dostoevsky can handle the content of it.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    edited May 2018
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 

    I know right  you are ok with putting bans that in this case are resulting in gamers having less choice.

    The fact is there are Dutch players who cant play MU Legends, regardless of what you think about webzen and their games - removing choice from gamers is a bad outcome.

    But as long as its the companies you deem personally as crap - its all fine, eh?

    Screw those who feel differently, because hey the government knows best
    I'm impressed that you as a Texan have so much sympathy for dutch players and how hard done by they are by their repressive government.

    This is over and above your own self interest of wanting to sell them shit, right?

    I am not a Texan, I am Alaskan - but I don't see any relevance to that.

    It's not about sympathy for a specific nationality or country - it's about legislation that will result in less games being available for all. 

    If a legislations end result is less choice in what games anyone can play = I consider that bad, that's just me

    If all lootboxes went away and all game companies disappeared over night - personally it wouldn't have any effect on me at all. I am financially set and not dependent on what happens at my company right now including my work (which would totally survive as long as the movie industry exists)

    So it has nothing to do with self interest. 

    It has to do with a simple observation - less games to play due to legislation 


  • RaagnarzRaagnarz Member UncommonPosts: 287

    moshra said:



    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.


    And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods.  Video games are a business.  They are made to make money.  If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it.  Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.




    Righhht so government should just stay out of everything people spend money on. By your logic all drugs should be legal. Casinos should have no age limit and anyone should be able to gamble whether they're old enough to understand the consequences or not. Cigarettes should be available to buy by anyone any ages. Grenades should be able to be bought by everyone. Damn governments ruining it for everyone right? It is not always a good thing to rely on them but when it comes to public safety from products it is. If what Kano said is true and you work for an unscrupulous employer that preys on children and people with addictions, it sure explains your rather sickening opinion that everything is fair game.
    craftseeker
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    edited May 2018
    Raagnarz said:

    moshra said:



    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.


    And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods.  Video games are a business.  They are made to make money.  If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it.  Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.




    Righhht so government should just stay out of everything people spend money on. By your logic all drugs should be legal. Casinos should have no age limit and anyone should be able to gamble whether they're old enough to understand the consequences or not. Cigarettes should be available to buy by anyone any ages. Grenades should be able to be bought by everyone. Damn governments ruining it for everyone right? It is not always a good thing to rely on them but when it comes to public safety from products it is. If what Kano said is true and you work for an unscrupulous employer that preys on children and people with addictions, it sure explains your rather sickening opinion that everything is fair game.


    You are taking an extremist stance (zero regulation/anarchy) to prove a point that nobody is arguing.

    Laws are necessary for a functioning society.

    Regulations on lootboxes are completely fine.

    Banning games with lootboxes outright - that's a problem as in this case it has resulted in all players (including adults) from an entire country not being able to play a game that they were able to play yesterday.

    That right there is loss of freedom in what games you want to play.
    TorvalLiljna
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,288
    edited May 2018
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 

    I know right  you are ok with putting bans that in this case are resulting in gamers having less choice.

    The fact is there are Dutch players who cant play MU Legends, regardless of what you think about webzen and their games - removing choice from gamers is a bad outcome.

    But as long as its the companies you deem personally as crap - its all fine, eh?

    Screw those who feel differently, because hey the government knows best
    I'm impressed that you as a Texan have so much sympathy for dutch players and how hard done by they are by their repressive government.

    This is over and above your own self interest of wanting to sell them shit, right?

    I am not a Texan, I am Alaskan - but I don't see any relevance to that.

    It's not about sympathy for a specific nationality or country - it's about legislation that will result in less games being available for all. 

    If a legislations end result is less choice in what games anyone can play = I consider that bad, that's just me

    If all lootboxes went away and all game companies disappeared over night - personally it wouldn't have any effect on me at all. I am financially set and not dependent on what happens at my company right now including my work (which would totally survive as long as the movie industry exists)

    So it has nothing to do with self interest. 

    It has to do with a simple observation - less games to play due to legislation 


    Where you see less games to play I see companies starting to be coerced into having better business practices because they can't get their own shit together.

    Loot boxes are just a shitty way to sell things that could be sold directly but at a lower profit of course. The items in them that those that buy them want are the really rare things that take an enormous amount of of boxes on average to get and the "consolation prizes" are junk that not many would buy directly.

    At best they can be excused and rationalized on the basis of maximizing profits. There is no way that from the consumer/player perspective they could ever be considered a better business practice. Even most players who claim to not be bothered by them or support them on the principle that anyone should be able to sell anything in any fashion, won't buy them themselves.

    Webzen is just saying "Fuck you Holland. You're small potatoes and this shit is way too profitable for us to clean up our act."

    And BTW, it's Webzen pulling out not the government making them do it. They had a choice even to keep selling them but just within the guidelines the Dutch have that are pretty easy to comply with because they, unlike Belgium, use ability to resell for real world money as their criteria.

    But your take? Bad government! lol.

    Sandmanjw
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  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,265
    DMKano said:
    Raagnarz said:

    moshra said:



    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.


    And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods.  Video games are a business.  They are made to make money.  If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it.  Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.




    Righhht so government should just stay out of everything people spend money on. By your logic all drugs should be legal. Casinos should have no age limit and anyone should be able to gamble whether they're old enough to understand the consequences or not. Cigarettes should be available to buy by anyone any ages. Grenades should be able to be bought by everyone. Damn governments ruining it for everyone right? It is not always a good thing to rely on them but when it comes to public safety from products it is. If what Kano said is true and you work for an unscrupulous employer that preys on children and people with addictions, it sure explains your rather sickening opinion that everything is fair game.


    You are taking an extremist stance (zero regulation/anarchy) to prove a point that nobody is arguing.

    Laws are necessary for a functioning society.

    Regulations on lootboxes are completely fine.

    Banning games with lootboxes outright - that's a problem as in this case it has resulted in all players (including adults) from an entire country not being able to play a game that they were able to play yesterday.

    That right there is loss of freedom in what games you want to play.
    It feels like you are blaming the country for doing what they feel is right for their citizens.  They banned lootboxes because they felt that it was gambling, which was bad for their citizens.  I fully understand the stance of freedom of choice, ect....  With that said the country didn't remove the freedom to play the game.  The publisher removed the freedom to play the game because they didn't want to have to change their business practices which are horrible to begin with.  Loot boxes should all be banned in my personal opinion.  If you want to sell things then just put them in the shop with a price tag on them, don't put a chance at getting it in hopes to get the person without self control to spend more and more until they do.  Overall gambling is an addictive activity.  Most people have self control and can handle it with no issues whatsoever but there are those, a lot more than people want to admit, that don't have the control or have addictive personalities which are the actual target of this type of business practice.  If your business has to have loot boxes to survive maybe you need to look at your product more and figure out why that is, instead of hoping to prey on customers.  There are many better business models out there, they just don't bring that rush of money like loot crates do, which is the only reason they caught on in the first place.
    Asm0deus
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,947
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.

    Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?

    What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?

    Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.








    I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?

    And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit. 

    I know right  you are ok with putting bans that in this case are resulting in gamers having less choice.

    The fact is there are Dutch players who cant play MU Legends, regardless of what you think about webzen and their games - removing choice from gamers is a bad outcome.

    But as long as its the companies you deem personally as crap - its all fine, eh?

    Screw those who feel differently, because hey the government knows best
    I'm impressed that you as a Texan have so much sympathy for dutch players and how hard done by they are by their repressive government.

    This is over and above your own self interest of wanting to sell them shit, right?

    I am not a Texan, I am Alaskan - but I don't see any relevance to that.

    It's not about sympathy for a specific nationality or country - it's about legislation that will result in less games being available for all. 

    If a legislations end result is less choice in what games anyone can play = I consider that bad, that's just me

    If all lootboxes went away and all game companies disappeared over night - personally it wouldn't have any effect on me at all. I am financially set and not dependent on what happens at my company right now including my work (which would totally survive as long as the movie industry exists)

    So it has nothing to do with self interest. 

    It has to do with a simple observation - less games to play due to legislation 


    Where you see less games to play I see companies starting to be coerced into having better business practices because they can't get their own shit together.

    Loot boxes are just a shitty way to sell things that could be sold directly but at a lower profit of course. The items in them that those that buy them want are the really rare things that take an enormous amount of of boxes on average to get and the "consolation" prices are junk that not many would buy directly.

    At best they can be excused and rationalized on the basis of maximizing profits. There is no way that from the consumer/player perspective they could ever be considered a better business practice. Even most players who claim to not be bothered by them or support them on the principle that anyone should be able to sell anything in any fashion, won't buy them themselves.

    Webzen is just saying "Fuck you Holland. You're small potatoes and this shit is way too profitable for us to clean up our act."

    And BTW, it's Webzen pulling out not the government making them do it. They had a choice even to keep selling them but just within the guidelines the Dutch have that are pretty easy to comply with because they, unlike Belgium, use ability to resell for real world money as their criteria.

    But your take? Bad government! lol.


    I see governments passing laws that are limiting what games their population will have access to.

    Webzen won't be the only company to pull their games, I see more companies pulling their games from Belgium as their law is more strict.

    Lootboxes need regulation - not banning - Webzen should have just made the contents not sellable. But hey that's just my 2c.

    If the end result is less games to choose due to some strongarm legislation - the issue is clearly the legislation.

    I dislike Webzen as much as the next guy - but it's 100% within their right to say nope, don't need to sell in Holland anymore. 

    I would have advised them to change the lootboxes to where resales were not possible - but again I don't work for Webzen - so whatever they want to do, it's their own business.


    Bottom line - I like to look at the end result here - the end result is one game is effectively banned due to both legislation and the developers unwillingness to abide by the new rules.

    I think it's a lose scenario personally.






  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,061
    Now we just need more countries to follow suit. I think this is a great first step in the right direction. 

    I have lots of opinions on this subject but I discussed this extensively in another thread and don't really have the energy to rehash it all here.

    I will just sum up my opinions in that I feel the video game industry has proven that it needs to be regulated more when it comes to this kind of thing, using gambling in video games, as it has failed to do so itself in the same manner the fire arms, tobbacco and achcohol industry failed and so steps had to be taken there too.

    I think first step need to be taken and feel more countries need to  step up to the plate as well so the industry actually receives the message...then we can play whack a mole and fine tune things.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member UncommonPosts: 216
    edited May 2018
    Too much boohoo over them stopping the game instead of making adjustments to the game to continue it there. That would of been far,far more intelligent of them.

    To me it is no different than any other regulation or law. The companies choice to go all drastic and stop allowing people there to play it.  Just another rule to comply with, their choice to be dicks.

    That's my take on it.  This is just the first shot fired ...this is just a small little skirmish in what will be a huge war before it is done...mark the date folks. This is just getting started.
    Asm0deus
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    DMKano said:
    Raagnarz said:

    moshra said:



    @DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.

    Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.

    We can do better.
    We will do better.


    And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods.  Video games are a business.  They are made to make money.  If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it.  Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.




    Righhht so government should just stay out of everything people spend money on. By your logic all drugs should be legal. Casinos should have no age limit and anyone should be able to gamble whether they're old enough to understand the consequences or not. Cigarettes should be available to buy by anyone any ages. Grenades should be able to be bought by everyone. Damn governments ruining it for everyone right? It is not always a good thing to rely on them but when it comes to public safety from products it is. If what Kano said is true and you work for an unscrupulous employer that preys on children and people with addictions, it sure explains your rather sickening opinion that everything is fair game.


    You are taking an extremist stance (zero regulation/anarchy) to prove a point that nobody is arguing.

    Laws are necessary for a functioning society.

    Regulations on lootboxes are completely fine.

    Banning games with lootboxes outright - that's a problem as in this case it has resulted in all players (including adults) from an entire country not being able to play a game that they were able to play yesterday.

    That right there is loss of freedom in what games you want to play.
    Now who is indulging in hyperbole? It was the company's decision to stop providing service to the Netherlands, not the Dutch government. And the number of people effected, while unknown, is undoubtedly very small. If it had been of any significant size the company would have gone down a different path. Your exaggeration of the number of people effected does you no credit. The freeDUMB argument has little traction outside of the U.S. The Dutch government has enacted sensible regulation to a predatory practice and that is a good thing.



    IselinAsm0deusShaighKyleran
  • DrWigglyDrWiggly Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Hmm you guys keep saying it needs to be tradeable. Well then why is Overwatch on the list? Pretty sure nothing is tradeable.
    SBFord
  • KoNaosukeKoNaosuke Member CommonPosts: 2
    I'm not sure what people mean by "less choice", with lootboxes you have no choice other than rely on luck, if the system is not rigged somehow to you win less stuff which you would like based on your profile, but that's another whole story. And yet, It was Webzen choice to leave, if most of people aren't aware, when you publish something in a country, you have to respect it's legislation, doesn't matter if your game is from south korea, north america or even antartica; so it had two choices : change or leave. They made the one we can see; but it doesn't just apply to lootboxes, if anything isn't in accord with a country legislation, it's illegal, period. Also, if you guys want to see some kind of legistantion in "lootboxes", go and check mobages from japan. They have to disclose every single rate to the end user, and I'm not sure about this last one but seems they have "age" verification, which to be honest is far from ideal, but if you're under 21, it limits you. If a country think it's better to it's population totally ban lootboxes, so be it; if the company wants to make bussiness in that territory, they must obey it's legislation. Also, let's be honest, that argument that "people from there now will lose access to the game", we are all bald "find" ways to play games not avaliable in our region, mainly if you are outside NA/EU, or if you want play some games from Asia.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,029
    DMKano said:
    Laws are necessary for a functioning society.

    Regulations on lootboxes are completely fine.

    Banning games with lootboxes outright - that's a problem as in this case it has resulted in all players (including adults) from an entire country not being able to play a game that they were able to play yesterday.

    That right there is loss of freedom in what games you want to play.
    Banning only children from playing games with lootboxes might result in games massively banning children just for the sake of their monetization, and in the long run much more loss of freedom than forcing all games use monetization practices that are suitable for children too.

    In USA the quest for freedom has gone to such extend that children are often prohibited from walking to school and moving around on their own.
     
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