Can someone explain to me how would they "fix" the lootboxes as not to appear gambling?
They can't, because that is exactly what they are.
The companies would need to find a different monetization model, and most of the alternatives are less addictive, i.e. less profitable.
There's lots of ways. It's just being silly to say "they can't". They need to make it so it doesn't adhere to what the legal term of gambling is defined as, not what people think gambling is.
The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.
and 3 others.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So, it will be like playing whack-a-mole, but if countries are willing to play whack-a-mole, it will deter gaming companies from using gambling mechanisms.
This is just one country making this decision, it is going to take many more for loot boxes to be a thing of the past. That's why I said early this year I think that it will take ten years to remove gambling from gaming. By then we will no doubt be facing some other reprehensive business practices that they have come up with.
Well there is likely ideas going on behind closed doors that we will never know. Example they have partners,investors,perhaps their contracts are only binding whilst using loot boxes. I don't remember the game but i do remember a dev stating that their investors demanded the loot boxes or a no go for the game,so definitely the BAD ideas are being influenced by money people and not gamer's. To the person asking HOW to make them NOT gambling,pretty simple,remove the gamble which is the unknown.So loot boxes drop,no real money tied to them. This is the the way gaming SHOULD be,we have a world we reside within the game,we do not want that world interfered with by real money trading.
There is a very simple rule of thought.If YOU the developer think your game is good enough,then why all the shady business dealings like cash shops and gambling loot boxes,why not a straight up fee to each gamer that is 100% fair across the board?We all have our assumptions which are likely true on all accounts,greed for MORE,allow a game to appear busy/populated while angling the whales for the majority of money and the obvious,your game is NOT good enough to lure in the masses so you aim to gouge the careless spenders.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Can someone explain to me how would they "fix" the lootboxes as not to appear gambling?
Have the lootboxes drop in game, and you buy a key from cash shop.
Thats no different to selling loot boxes in the cash shop. The only way to have loot boxes and not have it be gambling, is to not have loot boxes or anything related to them be purchased in the cash shop, but to instead just have loot boxes drop from gameplay without any influence from cash shop items or unlocks.
it shows how low their self confidence as game developers/publishers is. The game is only good enough to be sustained by whales and lootboxes. It's not good enough to survive with a mild cash shop or as a retail game.
Good riddance IMO. It would be nice to see this expand across the world and to all platforms that have been infested with these practices.
Can someone explain to me how would they "fix" the lootboxes as not to appear gambling?
Have the lootboxes drop in game, and you buy a key from cash shop.
Thats no different to selling loot boxes in the cash shop. The only way to have loot boxes and not have it be gambling, is to not have loot boxes or anything related to them be purchased in the cash shop, but to instead just have loot boxes drop from gameplay without any influence from cash shop items or unlocks.
No, all they have to do is ensure they are not resellable and have no market value.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Can someone explain to me how would they "fix" the lootboxes as not to appear gambling?
Have the lootboxes drop in game, and you buy a key from cash shop.
Thats no different to selling loot boxes in the cash shop. The only way to have loot boxes and not have it be gambling, is to not have loot boxes or anything related to them be purchased in the cash shop, but to instead just have loot boxes drop from gameplay without any influence from cash shop items or unlocks.
And yet, there are a bunch of MMOs that use that monetization method and no one cares.
A couple popular FPSs have you buy the loot boxes directly and everyone loses their minds.
Webzen?? MU Legend?? Never heard of either of them. OK it's a legitimate story, but how many Dutch players were there? If there were less than a thousand I can understand the company making that decision. But if it was less than a thousand, who cares anyway?
No my ignorance may be showing here and it may be the most popular game on the planet, but some how I doubt it.
@DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.
Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.
Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..
The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.
This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters
Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that
Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.
The Netherlands isn't the US ( I am from Holland ). It has nothing to do with election (since there isn't one for a long while) nor politics.
It's the government finally taking action against gambling targeted against kids!
Loot boxes is the worst kind of monetization that has invaded the gaming market!
Netherlands and Belgium will be the first to take action, but it will soon be an EU wide legislation.
Then these crap companies will sing a different tune.
I have absolutely nothing against F2P games with ingame cash shops for cosmetic stuff, etc.
Loot boxes however! I absolutely hate with a passion! Since it specifically targets people with a gambling addiction! It has no place in games!
Let gambling stay where it always was. Inside casino's!
PS. Webzen is a terrible company with a notorious reputation anyway. So I hardly doubt people in Holland will cry over it lol.
I don't live in Holland and I doubt that everyone in Holland shares your sentiment.
I don't have a problem with gambling IRL nor in video games at all, so lootboxes don't bother me one bit.
I don't believe that lootboxes are targeting kids - it's targeting everyone who plays games - it's a not kid specific mechanics - so I disagree with this notion that it's "gambling targeting kids"
Lootboxes are not the worst kind of monetization - as not all lootboxes are implemented the same way, it's a scale - some are much worse than others.
You are obviously biased against lootboxes and gambling - but that's just your opinion. The entire world does not feel like this nor are the laws the same - the state that I live allows social gambling, as long as the house is not taking a cut - I can invite friends over to my place and we can gamble with real money - no problem.
I enjoy to have this freedom as an adult - the idea that I can't gamble in my own home with my own friends and family is just insane to me.
I don't think that gambling should be only in Casinos - I disagree with that 100%.
There are far worse things than gambling - heck look at alcohol and tobacco - they do far more harm to billions of people globally than gambling and lootboxes and the world is just fine how they are controlled.
But lootboxes - lol - just outright ban those?
Why not put in restrictions just like on alcohol and tobacco? Those are not banned outright.
As an adult I prefer to have options open to me and not have the government decide what I can and can't do - especially when it comes to something as harmless as lootboxes in games.
Alcohol and tobacco have age restrictions. Gambling also has an age restriction. How do you propose that an age restriction be placed on lootboxes?
Age ratings mean nothing these days. Kids routinely play Grand Theft Auto and other mature games because most people rightly do not care about moralization in media and have become more open to mature themes.
Disabling purchases to underage players is also impractical. It is easy to lie on an age verification for any online video game. That lie doesn't void the game developer of their legal responsibility not to commit an illegal sale. If a teenager walks into a Walmart and tells the cashier he is 21, the cashier isn't suddenly authorized to sell them alcohol; they have to id and cover their tracks legally. To achieve a similar level of legal restriction and protection in an online game would require downright draconian identification systems that potentially expose players to identity theft - such as the Chinese system of registering Chinese social security numbers to game accounts.
In other words, restriction isn't just unsatisfactory in this case - it's actually logistically impossible.
@DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.
Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.
We can do better. We will do better.
And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods. Video games are a business. They are made to make money. If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it. Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.
So they're just gonna abandon tens of people over loot box ruling?
Making a modification for 'tens of people' is not cost effective. So it is understandable for Webzen to withdraw from that market.
But on the Dutch side the reaction (if they even notice) is more likely to be a hearty 'mission accomplished' rather than a wringing of hands and OMG! what have we done.
@DMKano With every one of your posts I get the impression your response is more about supporting your employer (which I understand is a game developer) than it is about gambling or what is good for people's entertainment.
Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.
We can do better. We will do better.
And you have the choice to not purchase those games that use such methods. Video games are a business. They are made to make money. If people are willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for stupid shit, then so be it. Relying on the government to tell people how to spend their money is never a good thing.
Actually it is often a good thing. That is why governments all over the world restrict and or regulate the supply of a good many things. Making and enforcing such rules, for the common good, is one of the major reasons we have governments in the first place.
Parents have no responsibility what their kids do and how they spend money?
As a parent - when my kids come and ask me for a purchase in a video game - we talk about it, there's a discussion that happens so that everyone understands what is going on.
This 100%. As a longtime teacher, I can't tell you how many parents want to abdicate their duties raising children to "the state" until Little Bobby or Tiny Tina get in trouble and then suddenly many of them suddenly give a darn.
I'm not a huge fan of loot boxes and think that some measures should be taken, but I also believe that it is ultimately the parents' responsibility to ensure their kids are playing age-appropriate games. If they're found to be underage, then it should be turned back on the parents. A few cases like that would stop a lot of this nonsense without restricting adults from engaging in loot box gambling if that's their choice.
Children don't automatically know right from wrong, good choices from bad. They need to be taught, hopefully by involved, caring parents who want to see them succeed in life. Those who choose to let their underage kids engage in games with loot boxes that are properly regulated (odds revealed, etc.) and who are caught should be held accountable.
I want to parent my child, not the government.
And, no. I don't buy them, but I enjoy earning them in games that offer them through gameplay.
Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..
The government is more concerned about self-preservation and what will win them next election than anything else.
This was low hanging fruit - aka easy pickins - this made them look good in the eyes of potential voters
Really tough or risky issues - it might make the public angry so loss of votes, they don't want to risk that
Sometimes the best actions that would benefit the world are the least popular ones, the problem with humanity is that we are too wrapped up in superficial issues to even notice the foundation crumbling right under our feet.
I would be amazed if this idea even featured in the decision regarding loot boxes. In the US whether gambling is legal or not may be an election issue but this is not an issue in the EU. Nor is the issue of controlling gambling or the issue of protecting minors. All three of these are "accepted" and have been for centuries. (Arguably its on of the reasons that contributed to the "Pilgrim Fathers" leaving "godless" England; gambling having been legalized in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I - and taxed!
Does anyone else think its sad that the government or "Dutch Gaming Authority" actually took this measure for a game, its not like they prevented any physical harm or loss of life, there has got to be better things for their government body to spend time on..
Nope.
Do you believe that gambling can - can not will - lead to potential problems? Inclusing - but not limited to - addiction, depression, crime brought about my lack of money needed to feed the addiction. Crime which - by default - will impact other people. So this is "other people" i.e. society - trying to protect itself my "cutting the odds" of the problem happening.
The Dutch are onto something. Good way to thin out crap games and crap companies from the digital game space.
Yeah taking away a choice from responsible adults who happen to be video gamers and live in Holland is a good thing now?
What about those in Holland who happen to like MU Legends - certainly not good for them, oh but screw them right - because hey the government knows what's good for them right?
Banning lootboxes is taking it too far - putting in restrictions on how they are done is the right way to go.
I know right? What's with these countrties thinking their interests take pecedence over the free market? Don't they know its 2018?
And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
They can't, because that is exactly what they are.
The companies would need to find a different monetization model, and most of the alternatives are less addictive, i.e. less profitable.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Example they have partners,investors,perhaps their contracts are only binding whilst using loot boxes.
I don't remember the game but i do remember a dev stating that their investors demanded the loot boxes or a no go for the game,so definitely the BAD ideas are being influenced by money people and not gamer's.
To the person asking HOW to make them NOT gambling,pretty simple,remove the gamble which is the unknown.So loot boxes drop,no real money tied to them.
This is the the way gaming SHOULD be,we have a world we reside within the game,we do not want that world interfered with by real money trading.
There is a very simple rule of thought.If YOU the developer think your game is good enough,then why all the shady business dealings like cash shops and gambling loot boxes,why not a straight up fee to each gamer that is 100% fair across the board?We all have our assumptions which are likely true on all accounts,greed for MORE,allow a game to appear busy/populated while angling the whales for the majority of money and the obvious,your game is NOT good enough to lure in the masses so you aim to gouge the careless spenders.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Good riddance IMO. It would be nice to see this expand across the world and to all platforms that have been infested with these practices.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Never heard of either of them. OK it's a legitimate story, but how many Dutch players were there? If there were less than a thousand I can understand the company making that decision. But if it was less than a thousand, who cares anyway?
No my ignorance may be showing here and it may be the most popular game on the planet, but some how I doubt it.
2: Force a age verifcation system (band-aid i know)
3: remove any way to use real world money to pay for them... =P
But then the game would be dead within 6 months as nobody would spend money on it without the additctive trap of lootboxes.
doing nr 1 would at least give people a option to make a informed choice. Not that it would help but it would at least be something.
This have been a good conversation
Loot boxes are not a good way to monetize entertainment, no matter how well they work. They are clearly gambling and do not add to the 'fun' of the game.
We can do better.
We will do better.
Age ratings mean nothing these days. Kids routinely play Grand Theft Auto and other mature games because most people rightly do not care about moralization in media and have become more open to mature themes.
Disabling purchases to underage players is also impractical. It is easy to lie on an age verification for any online video game. That lie doesn't void the game developer of their legal responsibility not to commit an illegal sale. If a teenager walks into a Walmart and tells the cashier he is 21, the cashier isn't suddenly authorized to sell them alcohol; they have to id and cover their tracks legally. To achieve a similar level of legal restriction and protection in an online game would require downright draconian identification systems that potentially expose players to identity theft - such as the Chinese system of registering Chinese social security numbers to game accounts.
In other words, restriction isn't just unsatisfactory in this case - it's actually logistically impossible.
But on the Dutch side the reaction (if they even notice) is more likely to be a hearty 'mission accomplished' rather than a wringing of hands and OMG! what have we done.
We can do better.
We will do better.
We can do better.
We will do better.
I'm not a huge fan of loot boxes and think that some measures should be taken, but I also believe that it is ultimately the parents' responsibility to ensure their kids are playing age-appropriate games. If they're found to be underage, then it should be turned back on the parents. A few cases like that would stop a lot of this nonsense without restricting adults from engaging in loot box gambling if that's their choice.
Children don't automatically know right from wrong, good choices from bad. They need to be taught, hopefully by involved, caring parents who want to see them succeed in life. Those who choose to let their underage kids engage in games with loot boxes that are properly regulated (odds revealed, etc.) and who are caught should be held accountable.
I want to parent my child, not the government.
And, no. I don't buy them, but I enjoy earning them in games that offer them through gameplay.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Do you believe that gambling can - can not will - lead to potential problems? Inclusing - but not limited to - addiction, depression, crime brought about my lack of money needed to feed the addiction. Crime which - by default - will impact other people. So this is "other people" i.e. society - trying to protect itself my "cutting the odds" of the problem happening.
And all those people going to Thailand to get the things you can only get there. What's up with that? Why not just legalize whatever is legal in Thailand and profit.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED