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My Thoughts on Premium (P2W vs. Convenience)

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,013
    edited May 2018
    Here's one dev interview confirming the PVE item being in the game.

    http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/bless-online-interview-with-the-devs/

    Direct quote from Bless Steam site.

    Q: Is there a PvP avoidance item? If yes, what are the details and how can we get it?
    A: Yes! There is. Before reaching the max level (45) players can use gold to purchase Peace Declaration item, and the effect will last for around 10 minutes. After reaching max level, players can use Lumena to purchase the Peace Pledge item instead. 

    Link is available in the Bless news item posted by this sites staff.

    YaevinduskMrMelGibson

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,926
    If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.
    The meta game of every PvP game ever is to get there first (early access if available) and level faster. 
    KyleranSlapshot1188SovrathMrMelGibson
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,442
    Ok, I'm out. Good luck to everyone playing it, I hope you guys have fun. I won't quite BDO to play another BDO
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • IzkimarIzkimar Member UncommonPosts: 561
    Here we go again with the same responses different title!
    This topic is very reminiscent to on and off again girl/boy friend.
    Talk about a terrible fucking break up.
    What would take for you to pick up or not pick up a new video game?

    I'm going to play the game... lol 

    This topic is more like a lot of people that got abused by every boyfriend/girlfriend they have had, and now that one only slightly abuses them they are perfectly acceptable. 
    StoneRoses
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,092

    Thank you for the link on it.

    Kyleran said:
    Here's one dev interview confirming the PVE item being in the game.

    http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/bless-online-interview-with-the-devs/

    Direct quote from Bless Steam site.

    Q: Is there a PvP avoidance item? If yes, what are the details and how can we get it?
    A: Yes! There is. Before reaching the max level (45) players can use gold to purchase Peace Declaration item, and the effect will last for around 10 minutes. After reaching max level, players can use Lumena to purchase the Peace Pledge item instead. 

    Link is available in the Bless news item posted by this sites staff.


    "We aren’t planning to have separate servers for PvP and PvE. We’re hoping to create an amazing experience for players of all kinds within the world of Bless; there will be plenty of content for both PvPers and PvEers.

    There will not be separate PVE or PVP servers, but we understand that many players do not wish to partake in PVP until it’s on their own terms. To help with this, there will be a consumable item that players can buy in-game to make them non-PVP enabled. This will work all the way to the level cap, last for a time, and has no cooldown. At the level cap, the item will still be obtainable, but via the Cash Shop. A large part of the later game content is PVP oriented (like our sieges), so we’re hoping players will try to engage in the conflict between the two factions then. Still, if they wish to avoid PVP, they’ll be able to buy the consumable in the cash shop, and you will also be able to earn cash shop currency via in-game activities as well."


    Yup.  That's dogshit.  I didn't play BDO for very long because I knew PvP was awaiting me.  But I at least bought the game to give it a shot.  Even got a costume because I like looking spiffy and enjoy plate armor in games.  But I won't support someone that does this for the reasons given in my previous post, and my past posts regarding this.


    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Wizardry said:
    ALL of those items are p2w and YES in a VERY big way.
    Why?
    Well ask yourself if every player would want those perks and the answer is YES 100% of the player base would love to have those perks.
    So they are VERY much desirabler to the point every single player wants them so yep 100% p2w but then again i would never listen to some BS from any developer/publisher that runs a cash shop.
    I thought of a good analogy....
    There is this really nice looking car there for sale,you want it,yes of course you want it but wait a car is only a convenience so it is not p2w ..umm yeah right lol.

    It is like saying we don't need money,it is only a convenience,we could live off the grid.
    If you see a cash shop,then avoid that game.

    Ugh, dumber then ever comment.
    MrMelGibson
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Izkimar said:
    Leveling speed isn't Pay 2 Win. It just isn't anymore than the "peace declarations" are cheating.

    Trying to say it's "soft-soft-soft P2W" is just another way of saying "it's not really pay 2 win, but having a level over another person is an advantage" 

    It's as much pay 2 win as someone playing for 48 hours straight is.  The faster one levels doesn't dictate that you'll win anything in the long term, and whose to say that even if you paid to get those boosts  the experience you earn would even out level someone who just has more time on their hands or levels more efficiently?

    It's a bad argument.  
    @FlyByKnight "From what people have said the leveling is pretty quick, so maybe not. In a scenario where levels are hyper important to if you get 1-2 shot YES you can make the argument that XP pots in cash shop is P2X."

    You guys don't understand the systems in Bless. Whether this is slight or severe is something that can be debated, but it is pretty hard to say it isn't P2W. The degree of severity doesn't change the definition, but it does decide whether it is tolerable or not. 

    Here's the thing, there is a huge power curve in this game. Racing to 45 is huge, getting into the dungeons faster is huge, keeping more gold and progressing crafting faster is all very big. Getting into dungeons and getting BiS gear isn't super cut and dry. 

    There is heavy RNG involved. Getting a drop even for your class can get you 1 of 15 Rune slots on your gear. Only 1 Rune is optimal for almost every class, and then there is a pretty big drop off to the next best options, and then a steep drop off to the rest. You then need to upgrade your gear and get it to +15 in order to get double rune slots which is then super RNG too. Then you need to go to +15 again in order to get it to Legendary. 

    Or in the 10 man Raid and "rumored" off of World Bosses you have a CHANCE to get Legendary gear. That then shrinks the time to making that gear the best if you get the right Rune Slots. 

    None of this mentions the speed of leveling your guild, which directly impacts population cap on your guild, and directly impacts when you can start the race to bidding for territories and getting a leg up on your opponents. Nor does that directly mention crafting it's impact, and the pet system which is super RNG, grindy, and impactful on the power curve as well. 

    Getting momentum is a huge advantage. 20% isn't the biggest advantage in the world, and I still label it as minor. However, I can also see it compound. Yes there is a point to where the non-premium member will catch up. But how long do we last in MMO's these days? We might only enjoy 2-3 months of the game, because of other unforeseen reasons. If we only are there to enjoy those 2-3 months, then doesn't that make it even worse? 

    TLDR; there is a lot of indirect power through EXP and currency to be gained here that will impact your race up the steep power curve. 
    Some people will last longer than others in this game, but in the end, the speed of leveling usually is the major draw for a lot of players. Many people leave after end game, if rushing to end game is necessary so that they can "compete" the game isn't going to last based on that alone. 

    And again, 20% means nothing in comparison to a persons time, how do you even measure that? If someone wants to excel in the game paying more to speed through doesn't change the fact that playing longer will equal the same results, in any given timeframe. While a person that has the XP boost and plays 24 hours straight will likely beat the person to max level that doesn't have it, in the end, we're talking about a difference of maybe a few hours worth of time?  

    Grinding out your end game gear is the same in every game, making it sound like if you get there first in Bless is so much different than getting there first in other games. It's really not different. And what makes it even more-so is that you mention RNG being such a big factor which means getting to end game first might give you a better advantage, but it's wholly random, so I could get there 2 days later than someone else, still end up with better gear due to RNG thereafter. 


    Ultimately if the game gets too grindy or becomes unfun, it's going to lose a lot of people, I don't plan on playing it like it's the MMO Messiah, I'm just going to play it in between other games.  If that somehow makes it "the wrong way to play" because I'm not racing to end game, then I guess I won't be playing it very long, or I'll just have to be "wrong". 



  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,926
    Izkimar said:
    Leveling speed isn't Pay 2 Win. It just isn't anymore than the "peace declarations" are cheating.

    Trying to say it's "soft-soft-soft P2W" is just another way of saying "it's not really pay 2 win, but having a level over another person is an advantage" 

    It's as much pay 2 win as someone playing for 48 hours straight is.  The faster one levels doesn't dictate that you'll win anything in the long term, and whose to say that even if you paid to get those boosts  the experience you earn would even out level someone who just has more time on their hands or levels more efficiently?

    It's a bad argument.  
    @FlyByKnight "From what people have said the leveling is pretty quick, so maybe not. In a scenario where levels are hyper important to if you get 1-2 shot YES you can make the argument that XP pots in cash shop is P2X."

    You guys don't understand the systems in Bless. Whether this is slight or severe is something that can be debated, but it is pretty hard to say it isn't P2W. The degree of severity doesn't change the definition, but it does decide whether it is tolerable or not. 

    Here's the thing, there is a huge power curve in this game. Racing to 45 is huge, getting into the dungeons faster is huge, keeping more gold and progressing crafting faster is all very big. Getting into dungeons and getting BiS gear isn't super cut and dry. 

    There is heavy RNG involved. Getting a drop even for your class can get you 1 of 15 Rune slots on your gear. Only 1 Rune is optimal for almost every class, and then there is a pretty big drop off to the next best options, and then a steep drop off to the rest. You then need to upgrade your gear and get it to +15 in order to get double rune slots which is then super RNG too. Then you need to go to +15 again in order to get it to Legendary. 

    Or in the 10 man Raid and "rumored" off of World Bosses you have a CHANCE to get Legendary gear. That then shrinks the time to making that gear the best if you get the right Rune Slots. 

    None of this mentions the speed of leveling your guild, which directly impacts population cap on your guild, and directly impacts when you can start the race to bidding for territories and getting a leg up on your opponents. Nor does that directly mention crafting it's impact, and the pet system which is super RNG, grindy, and impactful on the power curve as well. 

    Getting momentum is a huge advantage. 20% isn't the biggest advantage in the world, and I still label it as minor. However, I can also see it compound. Yes there is a point to where the non-premium member will catch up. But how long do we last in MMO's these days? We might only enjoy 2-3 months of the game, because of other unforeseen reasons. If we only are there to enjoy those 2-3 months, then doesn't that make it even worse? 

    TLDR; there is a lot of indirect power through EXP and currency to be gained here that will impact your race up the steep power curve. 
    Some people will last longer than others in this game, but in the end, the speed of leveling usually is the major draw for a lot of players. Many people leave after end game, if rushing to end game is necessary so that they can "compete" the game isn't going to last based on that alone. 

    And again, 20% means nothing in comparison to a persons time, how do you even measure that? If someone wants to excel in the game paying more to speed through doesn't change the fact that playing longer will equal the same results, in any given timeframe. While a person that has the XP boost and plays 24 hours straight will likely beat the person to max level that doesn't have it, in the end, we're talking about a difference of maybe a few hours worth of time?  

    Grinding out your end game gear is the same in every game, making it sound like if you get there first in Bless is so much different than getting there first in other games. It's really not different. And what makes it even more-so is that you mention RNG being such a big factor which means getting to end game first might give you a better advantage, but it's wholly random, so I could get there 2 days later than someone else, still end up with better gear due to RNG thereafter. 


    Ultimately if the game gets too grindy or becomes unfun, it's going to lose a lot of people, I don't plan on playing it like it's the MMO Messiah, I'm just going to play it in between other games.  If that somehow makes it "the wrong way to play" because I'm not racing to end game, then I guess I won't be playing it very long, or I'll just have to be "wrong". 
    Getting there first is not a PVE thing except for a very small portion of the PVE players. Most PVErs like to take their time and enjoy the journey.

    Those who enjoy both will typically rush their main to the end as fast as humanly possible and roll an alt to enjoy the PVE when they get bored with ganking lowbees on their main.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    My thoughts.

    No one buys stuff with no reason to buy stuff, so, they are going to make reasons to buy stuff. 

    If you don't like those reasons.. Oh well.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.
    That's pretty much why most people don't wait a week or two for the first weeks rush to slow down.  They don't want to be put at a disadvantage.  Which is also why they opt for the headstart programs.
    and here I am, waiting a few months after live launch for them to work out the bugs and for the wanna-be's to burn out, before I will even bother to get a game.

    Yet.. I have no issues with playing a game for years.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Iselin said:
    Izkimar said:
    Leveling speed isn't Pay 2 Win. It just isn't anymore than the "peace declarations" are cheating.

    Trying to say it's "soft-soft-soft P2W" is just another way of saying "it's not really pay 2 win, but having a level over another person is an advantage" 

    It's as much pay 2 win as someone playing for 48 hours straight is.  The faster one levels doesn't dictate that you'll win anything in the long term, and whose to say that even if you paid to get those boosts  the experience you earn would even out level someone who just has more time on their hands or levels more efficiently?

    It's a bad argument.  
    @FlyByKnight "From what people have said the leveling is pretty quick, so maybe not. In a scenario where levels are hyper important to if you get 1-2 shot YES you can make the argument that XP pots in cash shop is P2X."

    You guys don't understand the systems in Bless. Whether this is slight or severe is something that can be debated, but it is pretty hard to say it isn't P2W. The degree of severity doesn't change the definition, but it does decide whether it is tolerable or not. 

    Here's the thing, there is a huge power curve in this game. Racing to 45 is huge, getting into the dungeons faster is huge, keeping more gold and progressing crafting faster is all very big. Getting into dungeons and getting BiS gear isn't super cut and dry. 

    There is heavy RNG involved. Getting a drop even for your class can get you 1 of 15 Rune slots on your gear. Only 1 Rune is optimal for almost every class, and then there is a pretty big drop off to the next best options, and then a steep drop off to the rest. You then need to upgrade your gear and get it to +15 in order to get double rune slots which is then super RNG too. Then you need to go to +15 again in order to get it to Legendary. 

    Or in the 10 man Raid and "rumored" off of World Bosses you have a CHANCE to get Legendary gear. That then shrinks the time to making that gear the best if you get the right Rune Slots. 

    None of this mentions the speed of leveling your guild, which directly impacts population cap on your guild, and directly impacts when you can start the race to bidding for territories and getting a leg up on your opponents. Nor does that directly mention crafting it's impact, and the pet system which is super RNG, grindy, and impactful on the power curve as well. 

    Getting momentum is a huge advantage. 20% isn't the biggest advantage in the world, and I still label it as minor. However, I can also see it compound. Yes there is a point to where the non-premium member will catch up. But how long do we last in MMO's these days? We might only enjoy 2-3 months of the game, because of other unforeseen reasons. If we only are there to enjoy those 2-3 months, then doesn't that make it even worse? 

    TLDR; there is a lot of indirect power through EXP and currency to be gained here that will impact your race up the steep power curve. 
    Some people will last longer than others in this game, but in the end, the speed of leveling usually is the major draw for a lot of players. Many people leave after end game, if rushing to end game is necessary so that they can "compete" the game isn't going to last based on that alone. 

    And again, 20% means nothing in comparison to a persons time, how do you even measure that? If someone wants to excel in the game paying more to speed through doesn't change the fact that playing longer will equal the same results, in any given timeframe. While a person that has the XP boost and plays 24 hours straight will likely beat the person to max level that doesn't have it, in the end, we're talking about a difference of maybe a few hours worth of time?  

    Grinding out your end game gear is the same in every game, making it sound like if you get there first in Bless is so much different than getting there first in other games. It's really not different. And what makes it even more-so is that you mention RNG being such a big factor which means getting to end game first might give you a better advantage, but it's wholly random, so I could get there 2 days later than someone else, still end up with better gear due to RNG thereafter. 


    Ultimately if the game gets too grindy or becomes unfun, it's going to lose a lot of people, I don't plan on playing it like it's the MMO Messiah, I'm just going to play it in between other games.  If that somehow makes it "the wrong way to play" because I'm not racing to end game, then I guess I won't be playing it very long, or I'll just have to be "wrong". 
    Getting there first is not a PVE thing except for a very small portion of the PVE players. Most PVErs like to take their time and enjoy the journey.

    Those who enjoy both will typically rush their main to the end as fast as humanly possible and roll an alt to enjoy the PVE when they get bored with ganking lowbees on their main.
      But luckily lowbys are only about 15 levels under them at best. It's safe to say most people planning on playing aren't averse to PvP, it's just a matter of how long it takes them to get to max level, and having a boost won't really change that. People with a bunch of time won't sacrifice anything if they choose not to buy it.



  • MagikrorriMMagikrorriM Member UncommonPosts: 223
    edited May 2018
    A subscription is not pay to win, and that is what premium is, if anything Neowiz is guilty of, it is prioritizing a sub based game rather than a buy to play.My advice to those who refuse to shell out the 15 bucks a month, get the XP buff from a pet. The bonuses are very nice for sub model, I mean how much does Blizzard give you every month for their sub model?
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    P2W is a threshold that is different for every player and while we argue about the definition endlessly the Koreans are buying Lamborghinis thanks to the wallet warriors. 

    This is a pvp endgame with 1 shot TTKs even without P2W. The P2A / convenience items will just kill it faster and will be introduced more aggressively once box sales slow down.
  • IceDarkIceDark Member UncommonPosts: 207
    edited May 2018
    When you first started making videos about Bless, I though you care.. 

    Now all you do is to talk non-sense, while ...care-ing for youtube subs.

    "But I would still consider this soft-soft-soft P2W at the worst". So is not P2W, yet you made a video and a thread with bait title. Got it ..
    The Ice is dark and full of terror.
  • IceDarkIceDark Member UncommonPosts: 207
    If your definition of P2W is based on timing then literally every game ever is P2W because you're automatically at a disadvantage if you don't buy the game day one and start playing the moment the servers are open.
    That's pretty much why most people don't wait a week or two for the first weeks rush to slow down.  They don't want to be put at a disadvantage.  Which is also why they opt for the headstart programs.
    What ?

    Is that a real reason? I mean, it couldn't be that people are very excited to play a game, right ? Because all players care is the rush and .. not to be put at a disadvantage ....
    IselinKyleran
    The Ice is dark and full of terror.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,553
    I've noticed a trend over the past few years with people believing the earth is flat. I can see a lot of them are gamers as well.

  • IceDarkIceDark Member UncommonPosts: 207
    Rhoklaw said:
    I've noticed a trend over the past few years with people believing the earth is flat. I can see a lot of them are gamers as well.
    Damn! 

    So , let's say there are .. what? 100k people who believe the earth is flat? Fine , 1 million ? Fine .. 10 millions from the entire earth population? 

    ...one of them is my brother. Lucky me. I think I should play the lottery more often. 
    The Ice is dark and full of terror.
  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 316
    I just don't understand why games don't just keep monthly subs or lower sub with cosmetic items. The problem I have with games going B2P with cash shop is it fucks the design of the whole game up because now they develop the game in a way that pushes you there EVERY TIME!!. The shop itself has never been the issue Blizzard gets it.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    SalmonMan said:
    If the bar is, “ well every player would like those perks” then EVERY game is pay to win.

    That is a ludicrous statement. 
    Consider the source this comment came from.  99.9% of what he posts is incoherent and ludicrous babble.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    SalmonMan said:
    If the bar is, “ well every player would like those perks” then EVERY game is pay to win.

    That is a ludicrous statement. 
    WRONG that is NOT what that means at all,geesus ,are there many people in chat rooms with any intelligence at all?
    The keyword is >>CASH SHOP,NOT every game has one,that should  be enough to explain why you are WRONG.
    So in essence YOUR statement is ludicrous,invalid whatever.
    I always love how people that cannot understand even the simplest ideals just turn to insults because they can't offer up their own opinion on the TOPIC .

    You and SOKI who like to toss insults instead of sticking to the topic should enlighten everyone here with your BRILLIANCE,go on let us hear your brilliant opinion on the subject?IF either one of you have one?

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • LabattsLabatts Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Why do people go to forums or make videos complaining about "potential" P2W? If you think it's P2W, first of all your an idiot, second shut up and just don't play. Stop being cheap and support the game developers if you like a game. Everyone needs to rush to the end, or someone might have an advantage because blah blah blah...

    I plan on buying the collector's edition to support the game and play at my pace. I am a semi-hard core pvp/pve player.
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