Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Ungood · May 2018

Again, for those that don't quite understand this.

There is not a single MMO Company that gives any Minor consent to play their game, and on top of that, if they knew a minor was playing their game without the explicit consent of their Legal Parent or Guardian they would instantly suspend the account (Which they have to do by law, and for their own liability)

So no, MMO's are not trying to target "children" they are trying to target Adults with disposable incomes.

So.. can we all please spare any further horseshit about this whole "Won't somebody please think of the children" .. it's getting boring and trite at this point.

Asm0deus · May 2018

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:
Do you know what the baddest idea of all is.....to do nothing. You know that expression, "evil wins when good people do nothing"...it's an expression and a cliche because there's a grain of truth in it.

I have said several times on this thread that people need to take initiative and invest in other methods, I know I do that, because I know that is the language game companies speak, when I spend money, I ensure to buy non-RNG items, in everything I purchase, because that is the direction I want things to go in.

That's awesome I and do pretty much the same thing but the thing is voting with our wallets isn't really working is it? We are seeing more and more of these shady, predatory practices being adopted as people get mindbuggered into thinking it's okay and normal..

Ungood said:
Lootboxes came to be because they are profitable and a reality check is that companies don't care about loot boxes, they only care about money, and if something else is equally or more profitable, they will invest in that.

Indeed companies care only about their bottom line and profit margins, they don't care about the impact on the people using, their only interest is the money coming in which is why self regulation isn't working....

Ungood said:
But the truth is, what won't solve this is expecting something for free, thinking that closing your wallet is a vote (it's not, it's allowing everyone else to vote for you) or crying to a politician to save you.

No one is asking for a free ride and indeed that's what we have been saying, voting with our wallets have failed in much the same way asking an addict to abstain more often than not fails...

Ungood said:
Yah, we should do something.. some of us are actually doing something, while others are crying that someone else needs to do something and expecting politicians to save them.

I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?

Eldurian · May 2018

@Iselin

The only difference between a Libertarian true believer and a statist true believer is that we actually have some facts to back our position.

The idea the government can solve our problems reflects reality as closely as our government made food pyramid.

laserit · May 2018

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Ungood said:

I want to make a few points.

I don't like Lootboxes. I personally hate the RNG-Hell they are, and I would love to justify getting rid of them.

With that said, calling them gambling, is not the way to make it happen.

The only way to get rid of lootboxes is to support games with another payment system

You can't simply not buy them, as others will, and as long as they are profitable, a company will use them, or something like them to keep making as much money as possible. That is how F2P killed the Sub based games, people spent more money on the F2P games. If you want some other system to happen, you need to open your wallets and pay into those other systems to make them profitable.

We can't blame a company for wanting to make money.
We can't expect a company to raise and protect our children... that is our job.

What we can do, is influance things, and the only way to make that happen is by voting with your wallet.. not by closing it. but by opening it to the things you want to see happen.

Closing your wallet just has the company write you off and move on to someone else that will open theirs, and they will cater to them, no matter how much you fuss, because they are the ones funding things, not you.

So again, if you want lootboxes to go away, stop buying them but make sure to buy something else that you want to see more of.

Case in point, I will not buy RNG stuff in any game I play, what I will buy is stuff when they sell me directly what I want, because that is what I want to see more of.

Whether it's gambling or not doesn't matter. Keep the loot box monetization model away from kids.

Already done.

Anyone under the legal age of consent cannot legally play an MMO, as every MMO requires the account creator to sign an EULA, which must be done by a legal adult, if a child is playing an MMO, it is because their parent or legal guardian is letting them use their account.

As such, any issues with "Think of the Children" is a result of bad or irresponsible parenting, not anything the game company has done, maybe you can call CPS on everyone that lets their child play an MMO, but as far as the game company goers, every single account has been made by a legal adult.

Now, can we all please give the "Think of the Children" horseshit a rest?

Really?

You mean that part where you set your birthdate and your good to go.

Yup.

If someone lies, that is the parents and the liars fault, not the company.

Or maybe you have some delusional ideal where a game company should come to your house, demand to see your ID, and prove you are an adult, before they let you play their game.. spare me such stupid ideas.

And yah.. spare me the "think of the children" horseshit as well, as that is all it.

By law, a Child cannot play an MMO, without their parents or legal guardian's consent, on the EULA.

So.. you got your wish. Spare me any further tears on this.

lol

So that's the best your industry can come up with?

You guys are your own worst enemies. Your greed is going to get you regulated up the ying yang. The smart guys are trying to self regulate before the hammer comes down.

People with your attitude are going to fuck that all up.

laserit · May 2018

Ungood said:

Again, for those that don't quite understand this.

There is not a single MMO Company that gives any Minor consent to play their game, and on top of that, if they knew a minor was playing their game without the explicit consent of their Legal Parent or Guardian they would instantly suspend the account (Which they have to do by law, and for their own liability)

So no, MMO's are not trying to target "children" they are trying to target Adults with disposable incomes.

So.. can we all please spare any further horseshit about this whole "Won't somebody please think of the children" .. it's getting boring and trite at this point.

bullshit

Ungood · May 2018

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:
Do you know what the baddest idea of all is.....to do nothing. You know that expression, "evil wins when good people do nothing"...it's an expression and a cliche because there's a grain of truth in it.

I have said several times on this thread that people need to take initiative and invest in other methods, I know I do that, because I know that is the language game companies speak, when I spend money, I ensure to buy non-RNG items, in everything I purchase, because that is the direction I want things to go in.

That's awesome I and do pretty much the same thing but the thing is voting with our wallets isn't really working is it? We are seeing more and more of these shady, predatory practices being adopted as people get mindbuggered into thinking it's okay and normal..

That is because the problem we have, is that too many people who think they are "voting with their wallets" think that they are casting their vote by not buying anything.

As I said, Not Spending Money, is not voting with your wallet, it is allowing everyone else to vote for you.

The only way people will vote with their wallet is by buying what they want to see more of, case in point, have you ever noticed that a lot of game just sell outfits, they don't RNG them?

That is because people willingly spend money directly on outfits, so it's profitable to make them and sell them directly. If more people did that with other things, they would see those things being made and sold in the manner they want to buy them.

So, truth is, what we really have, is a bunch of people not voting and thinking they are voting, and wondering why their voice was never heard, so they go make a fuss to someone else, that they think heard their vote.

Maybe if more people actually voted with their wallet.. we would not have this problem to start with, because companies would be willing to invest in other more transparent means of sales, But that kind of initiative is a lot harder then just screaming at someone else to save you.

Thank about it.

I hate to say it.. but.. I am going to bet this problem was caused by too many people thinking they were voting with their wallets by not spending money.

Eldurian · May 2018

Asm0deus said:

I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?

Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.

laserit · May 2018

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

Ungood said:

It's about bad ideas that will lead to more bad ideas.

In the end, nothing good will come trying to outlaw Loot boxes, something else will be put in, so all that will happen is the flavor of the poison will change, nothing will get 'better'. As others have said, the people here are just anti-lootbox, they don't care about the addictive issues and others things that happen in games, so this is not about children, this is not about predatory practices, this not about addictions, this... this right here.. is purely about them not liking that flavor of poison that Lootboxes are, but they are still willing to drink poison none the less.

It is predatory and its about scum bag companies targeting kids.

These games are full of kids.

What that gave that away to you? The cranky middle aged men who inhabit these forums or the cranky middle aged men who inhabit every MMO you play?

This narrative of MMOs being for kids exists purely in your own minds and is backed up by absolutely nothing.

"According to NPD, 91 percent of U.S. children ages 2-17 play video games (64 million). More interesting, these numbers are up nearly 13 percent from a 2009 study. The number of kids in the U.S. has increased by 1.54 percent in that time, but not nearly enough to make up for the massive increase in game playing.Oct 11, 2011"

“Year-to-date through August 2011, kids comprised 44 percent of new physical software dollar sales, representing a vitally important consumer segment for the games industry,” said Anita Frazier, industry analyst, The NPD Group. “Knowing how kids are spending their gaming time and dollars in both traditional and non-traditional outlets is key to staying relevant to this highly engaged audience.”

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/91-percent-of-kids-play-video-games-says-study/

its not just about MMO's loot boxes are a cancer on the whole industry.

Ungood · May 2018

laserit said:

Ungood said:

Again, for those that don't quite understand this.

There is not a single MMO Company that gives any Minor consent to play their game, and on top of that, if they knew a minor was playing their game without the explicit consent of their Legal Parent or Guardian they would instantly suspend the account (Which they have to do by law, and for their own liability)

So no, MMO's are not trying to target "children" they are trying to target Adults with disposable incomes.

So.. can we all please spare any further horseshit about this whole "Won't somebody please think of the children" .. it's getting boring and trite at this point.

bullshit

LOL, Nope.. 100% legit, a MMO company cannot willingly let a minor play their game if they know they are doing so without their legal guardian or parents permission.

So.. you got you wish.. now go away and be happy or sad about that.. either way I don't care.

Eldurian · May 2018

Ungood said:

That is because the problem we have, is that too many people who think they are "voting with their wallets" think that they are casting their vote by not buying anything.

As I said, Not Spending Money, is not voting with your wallet, it is allowing everyone else to vote for you.

The only way people will vote with their wallet is by buying what they want to see more of, case in point, have you ever noticed that a lot of game just sell outfits, they don't RNG them?

That is because people willingly spend money directly on outfits, so it's profitable to make them and sell them directly. If more people did that with other things, they would see those things being made and sold in the manner they want to buy them.

So, truth is, what we really have, is a bunch of people not voting and thinking they are voting, and wondering why their voice was never heard, so they go make a fuss to someone else, that they think heard their vote.

Maybe if more people actually voted with their wallet.. we would not have this problem to start with, because companies would be willing to invest in other more transparent means of sales, But that kind of initiative is a lot harder then just screaming at someone else to save you.

Thank about it.

I hate to say it.. but.. I am going to bet this problem was caused by too many people thinking they were voting with their wallets by not spending money.

That's a good point

A good example of people voting with their wallet is the food industry. When people decide they want a certain type of product (Cage free eggs, fair trade products, organic products etc.) stores start to stock those products because there is a demand for them. You can now go to stores and find products that cater to pretty much every major type of food preference.

It seems like half the gamers these days want developers to make these games from the goodness of their hearts. That isn't going to feed their families, so why should they care what you want if you aren't willing to pay for it?

If the anti-P2W crowd who have labeled literally every single successful form of MMO monetization as P2W get their way, there won't not only never be another AAA MMO. All the current ones will shut down.

That's a large part of why I don't mind lootboxes existing as long as I'm never forced to buy them (Which I still have yet to play an MMO where I have been). Because knock them all you want, if it weren't for whales there wouldn't be MMOs anymore.

15$ a month isn't enough to float the level of feature's and graphics we have all come to expect.

If lootboxes are out one of two things will happen.

1. The companies will find a way to make up those lost profits by hiking fees in another place. Very potentially one you can't opt out of like loot boxes.
2. The games you want to play so badly that this is apparently an issue for you all will slow their pace of development or potentially even shut down.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

You completely ignore the context here. This isn't consumers squeezing fruit before they buy to check ripeness, devs have already shown they'll leverage the current legal framework and complexity of these products to manipulate players. You can't ignore it, because there's been a friggin' patent filed for it. You can choose to look away from that, but I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks.

Everyone knows loot boxes are a gamble. Everyone knows the odds favor the house. The wool is over absolutely nobody's eyes.

Where we differ is you think you should be able to tell other people "you can't do that because it's bad for you" and I don't.

"I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks."

Then don't play games that you feel operate that way.

Except I sign a EULA that says I won't even try to access the sort of code that would perform such behind the scenes action.

Please, tell me how you would avoid Activision's patented code. I'm interested how you'd be able to tell just from playing their games.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

You completely ignore the context here. This isn't consumers squeezing fruit before they buy to check ripeness, devs have already shown they'll leverage the current legal framework and complexity of these products to manipulate players. You can't ignore it, because there's been a friggin' patent filed for it. You can choose to look away from that, but I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks.

Everyone knows loot boxes are a gamble. Everyone knows the odds favor the house. The wool is over absolutely nobody's eyes.

Where we differ is you think you should be able to tell other people "you can't do that because it's bad for you" and I don't.

"I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks."

Then don't play games that you feel operate that way.

Except I sign a EULA that says I won't even try to access the sort of code that would perform such behind the scenes action.

Please, tell me how you would avoid Activision's patented code. I'm interested how you'd be able to tell just from playing their games.

EDIT- the industry has already signaled more than once that they have no qualms creating predatory code that pushes gamers to the market without the gamer's knowledge or any available understanding of how the system works. You can choose to ignore that because you're seeing things in such black and white, but that's a pretty elementary way to look at the world. Context is important.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Sigh, mobile site strikes again. -_-

klash2def · May 2018

smh at all the people who think Loot-boxes are only in "MMOs"

Not sure what rock you live under but Mobile Games, MOBAs, Single Player Games, Battle Royal and Co-Op games all have loot-boxes. Yes a lot of those games are aimed and marketed towards minors.

Stop trying to change the narrative and just say you support predatory behavior towards minors.

I cant believe people are defending loot-boxes... I cant tell if its pride, stupidity or just wanting to argue.

its probably all the above. this thread is peak mmorpg.com forum

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Minors or not, most gamers won't have the knowledge to check for predatory code, nor is it even legal in the EULA to search their code for such predatory pieces (if I'm not mistaken). Yet we've seen folks deduce XP throttling, something Bungie was all too ready to let go unnoticed until they were called.

Tell me, how do you think folks would be able to deduce predatory matchmaking?

EDIT- to that end, how would you deduce manipulated odds in lootboxes currently? They don't even have to share the odds. It'd be like giving blackjack dealers free reign to add or remove cards from the shuffled decks without telling the players.

Eldurian · May 2018

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

Everyone knows loot boxes are a gamble. Everyone knows the odds favor the house. The wool is over absolutely nobody's eyes.

Where we differ is you think you should be able to tell other people "you can't do that because it's bad for you" and I don't.

"I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks."

Then don't play games that you feel operate that way.

Except I sign a EULA that says I won't even try to access the sort of code that would perform such behind the scenes action.

Please, tell me how you would avoid Activision's patented code. I'm interested how you'd be able to tell just from playing their games.

I can't quantify the odds but I know they aren't good so I don't play their lootbox game. That's how I avoid their "patented code". But honestly casinos do publish their odds. Odds are, you lose. People still play.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

People know that and yet they choose to play the game. The only people who care about those odds are people who would never play anyway.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

Everyone knows loot boxes are a gamble. Everyone knows the odds favor the house. The wool is over absolutely nobody's eyes.

Where we differ is you think you should be able to tell other people "you can't do that because it's bad for you" and I don't.

"I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks."

Then don't play games that you feel operate that way.

Except I sign a EULA that says I won't even try to access the sort of code that would perform such behind the scenes action.

Please, tell me how you would avoid Activision's patented code. I'm interested how you'd be able to tell just from playing their games.

I can't quantify the odds but I know they aren't good so I don't play their lootbox game. That's how I avoid their "patented code". But honestly casinos do publish their odds. Odds are, you lose. People still play.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

People know that and yet they choose to play the game. The only people who care about those odds are people who would never play anyway.

Not true at all. When I hit a casino, I play mostly roullette because it has some of the highest odds of winning. If I get up, I'll use that cash to play a higher stakes game for a little more adrenaline knowing it's borrowed money anyways.

Eldurian · May 2018

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

I can't quantify the odds but I know they aren't good so I don't play their lootbox game. That's how I avoid their "patented code". But honestly casinos do publish their odds. Odds are, you lose. People still play.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

People know that and yet they choose to play the game. The only people who care about those odds are people who would never play anyway.

Not true at all. When I hit a casino, I play mostly roullette because it has some of the highest odds of winning. If I get up, I'll use that cash to play a higher stakes game for a little more adrenaline knowing it's borrowed money anyways.

So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

It's just about how long it takes to get there.

Asm0deus · May 2018

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:
Do you know what the baddest idea of all is.....to do nothing. You know that expression, "evil wins when good people do nothing"...it's an expression and a cliche because there's a grain of truth in it.

I have said several times on this thread that people need to take initiative and invest in other methods, I know I do that, because I know that is the language game companies speak, when I spend money, I ensure to buy non-RNG items, in everything I purchase, because that is the direction I want things to go in.

That's awesome I and do pretty much the same thing but the thing is voting with our wallets isn't really working is it? We are seeing more and more of these shady, predatory practices being adopted as people get mindbuggered into thinking it's okay and normal..

That is because the problem we have, is that too many people who think they are "voting with their wallets" think that they are casting their vote by not buying anything.

As I said, Not Spending Money, is not voting with your wallet, it is allowing everyone else to vote for you.

The only way people will vote with their wallet is by buying what they want to see more of, case in point, have you ever noticed that a lot of game just sell outfits, they don't RNG them?

That is because people willingly spend money directly on outfits, so it's profitable to make them and sell them directly. If more people did that with other things, they would see those things being made and sold in the manner they want to buy them.

So, truth is, what we really have, is a bunch of people not voting and thinking they are voting, and wondering why their voice was never heard, so they go make a fuss to someone else, that they think heard their vote.

Maybe if more people actually voted with their wallet.. we would not have this problem to start with, because companies would be willing to invest in other more transparent means of sales, But that kind of initiative is a lot harder then just screaming at someone else to save you.

Thank about it.

I hate to say it.. but.. I am going to bet this problem was caused by too many people thinking they were voting with their wallets by not spending money.

This is a false argument as it "presumes" people only buy lootboxes which is plainly false. What isn't false though is that companies will not sell items outright because they know it ends up costing consumers much much more , thus more profits for them, if the items they know people will want to buy are only found in lotboxes.

It's a way to increase the rarity of these items and make procuring them tied to real life monies to increase their profits over just selling them outright.

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?

Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.

Your word of the day is it?

The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.

It's not purely one or the other.

Ungood · May 2018

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:
Do you know what the baddest idea of all is.....to do nothing. You know that expression, "evil wins when good people do nothing"...it's an expression and a cliche because there's a grain of truth in it.

I have said several times on this thread that people need to take initiative and invest in other methods, I know I do that, because I know that is the language game companies speak, when I spend money, I ensure to buy non-RNG items, in everything I purchase, because that is the direction I want things to go in.

That's awesome I and do pretty much the same thing but the thing is voting with our wallets isn't really working is it? We are seeing more and more of these shady, predatory practices being adopted as people get mindbuggered into thinking it's okay and normal..

That is because the problem we have, is that too many people who think they are "voting with their wallets" think that they are casting their vote by not buying anything.

As I said, Not Spending Money, is not voting with your wallet, it is allowing everyone else to vote for you.

The only way people will vote with their wallet is by buying what they want to see more of, case in point, have you ever noticed that a lot of game just sell outfits, they don't RNG them?

That is because people willingly spend money directly on outfits, so it's profitable to make them and sell them directly. If more people did that with other things, they would see those things being made and sold in the manner they want to buy them.

So, truth is, what we really have, is a bunch of people not voting and thinking they are voting, and wondering why their voice was never heard, so they go make a fuss to someone else, that they think heard their vote.

Maybe if more people actually voted with their wallet.. we would not have this problem to start with, because companies would be willing to invest in other more transparent means of sales, But that kind of initiative is a lot harder then just screaming at someone else to save you.

Thank about it.

I hate to say it.. but.. I am going to bet this problem was caused by too many people thinking they were voting with their wallets by not spending money.

This is a false argument as it "presumes" people only buy lootboxes which is plainly false. What isn't false though is that companies will not sell items outright because they know it ends up costing consumers much much , thus more profits for them, if the items they know people will want to buy are only found in lotboxes.

It's a way to increase the rarity of these items and make procuring them tied to real life monies to increase their profits over just selling them outright.

I see you missed my example of how Outfits are still sold directly, mainly because they still sell enough to keep selling them that way.

In most games, there are often a selection of items you can just buy, and items you get from RNG. If more people bought the items you can just buy, they would sell more of those items because that is what sells.

Case in point, in GW2, they sold Endless Harvesting Items, I bought them, when they made an RNG augment to them, I didn't buy those, but I still bought the items that were not RNG.

Sure, Lootboxes won't go away, but, by and large, game company backers would not cling to them like holy grail of money making like they do now, they would be willing to peruse other methods.

TalulaRose · May 2018

If my taxes didn't have to go to social programs for gambling addiction I couldn't care less.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

I can't quantify the odds but I know they aren't good so I don't play their lootbox game. That's how I avoid their "patented code". But honestly casinos do publish their odds. Odds are, you lose. People still play.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

People know that and yet they choose to play the game. The only people who care about those odds are people who would never play anyway.

Not true at all. When I hit a casino, I play mostly roullette because it has some of the highest odds of winning. If I get up, I'll use that cash to play a higher stakes game for a little more adrenaline knowing it's borrowed money anyways.

So tell me. What are your net profits from gambling?

Gambling has the same odds every time. You lose, house wins.

It's just about how long it takes to get there.

That's... VERY black and white. To the point of being erroneous Eldurian.

Asm0deus · May 2018

Ungood said:

....snip.....

I see you missed my example of how Outfits are still sold directly, mainly because they still sell enough to keep selling them that way.

In most games, there are often a selection of items you can just buy, and items you get from RNG. If more people bought the items you can just buy, they would sell more of those items because that is what sells.

Case in point, in GW2, they sold Endless Harvesting Items, I bought them, when they made an RNG augment to them, I didn't buy those, but I still bought the items that were not RNG.

Sure, Lootboxes won't go away, but, by and large, game company backers would not cling to them like holy grail of money making like they do now, they would be willing to peruse other methods.

I see you missed my point.

Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only. See SWL where you can only get certain cosmetics in the lootboxes but even more so certain weapons such a anima touched, frost bound, fire touched etc etc weapons.

Just because something is sold straight up in the cash shop and you buy stuff there and avoid lootboxes it doesn't mean that they will suddenly stop selling lootboxes especially if they make sure certain items only come out of the lootboxes.

If companies got rid of lootboxes those items might be available straight up for sale in the cash shop rather than forcing you to "gamble" for them via a lootbox.

Eldurian · May 2018

Asm0deus said:

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?

Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.

Your word of the day is it?

The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.

It's not purely one or the other.

A representative democracy is when you vote in people who can research the issues better than you can to represent you. Our representatives represent our interest to our constitutional republic AKA "There is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority."

Your government is meant to address issues in a way that everyone is treated fairly because they represent many diverse groups.

If you say "Lootboxes should be banned because they decay the fabric of society!!!" then it's their job to say "Yeah well the evangelicals are telling me gay marriage decays the fabric of our society, Mothers Against Video game Addiction are telling me to ban all games because it decays the fabric of our society, PETA is telling me eating me decays the fabric of our society, and someone is telling me that (insert minority group here) living in their neighborhoods and marrying their women is decaying the fabric of our society." "Maybe you should all just respect eachother's rights and that you have different preferences rather than thinking I should do exactly what you tell me to do because I'm you're representative."

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

I think you are mistaking "crying" with speaking out so the people that WE VOTED IN hear us, hear our concerns and thus represent us properly...you know the whole basis of democracy, maybe you would prefer things were like in North Korea and "whiners" were dealt with harshly for speaking out?

Good thing that in a REPUBLIC there is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority.

Your word of the day is it?

The USA is both as it's a Constitutional Federal Republic. In other words a federation of states with a Representative Democracy.

It's not purely one or the other.

A representative democracy is when you vote in people who can research the issues better than you can to represent you. Our representatives represent our interest to our constitutional republic AKA "There is limitations on what your representatives can do rather than defaulting to the tyranny of the majority."

Your government is meant to address issues in a way that everyone is treated fairly because they represent many diverse groups.

If you say "Lootboxes should be banned because they decay the fabric of society!!!" then it's their job to say "Yeah well the evangelicals are telling me gay marriage decays the fabric of our society, Mothers Against Video game Addiction are telling me to ban all games because it decays the fabric of our society, PETA is telling me eating me decays the fabric of our society, and someone is telling me that (insert minority group here) living in their neighborhoods and marrying their women is decaying the fabric of our society." "Maybe you should all just respect eachother's rights and that you have different preferences rather than thinking I should do exactly what you tell me to do because I'm you're representative."

Comparing resistance to predatory monetization and marketing to religious persecution isn't a good argument.

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