Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Iselin · May 2018

MMOGamer71 said:

Follow the money - lootboxes are gambling = EU wants to tax them.

Write this down.

Digital game transactions (subscriptions, cash shop purchases, etc.) are already taxed in the EU, Australia and even a couple of states in the US - Illinois for one.

Eldurian · May 2018

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Ungood · May 2018

Quizzical said:

Ungood said:

craftseeker said:

Ungood said:

Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling.

The only variable, is you are paying to roll.

Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.

I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.

So let me make sure I have this straight. If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling. But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something. Is that basically what you're arguing?

Not really.

See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the in-game item, just like those bits of plastic jewelry, are vastly worthless.

This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

If they confer a direct and conspicuous in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Irrelevant. If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try. Maybe I’ll support you. Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.

As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards. It goes on and on. So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes. He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

We can do better than this.

Ungood · May 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Irrelevant. If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try. Maybe I’ll support you. Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.

As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards. It goes on and on. So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes. He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

We can do better than this.

So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?

Scorchien · May 2018

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

First .. you dont snort crack you smoke it ..

2nd .. your crusade against leveling and vertical progression , has no place in this discussion , it seems you almost , dare i say, have an Addiction to injecting this narrative into every thread ..

3rd .. life is Leveling .. no different than gaming .. you strive always to improve in skills and gear ... Vertically .. Yes .. bettering oneself is addictive .. Horizontly progressing in life will get you crushed

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Irrelevant. If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try. Maybe I’ll support you. Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.

As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards. It goes on and on. So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes. He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

We can do better than this.

So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?

Keep making stupid analogies. It's not helping your cause.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Ungood said:

Quizzical said:

Ungood said:

craftseeker said:

Ungood said:

Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling.

The only variable, is you are paying to roll.

Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.

I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.

So let me make sure I have this straight. If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling. But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something. Is that basically what you're arguing?

Not really.

See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the in-game item, just like those bits of plastic jewelry, are vastly worthless.

This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

If they confer a direct and conspicuous in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.

Unless there's a legal RMT market, nothing you win has any value whatsoever. It's not even yours.

Iselin · May 2018

Ungood said:

Quizzical said:

Ungood said:

craftseeker said:

Ungood said:

Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling.

The only variable, is you are paying to roll.

Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.

I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.

So let me make sure I have this straight. If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling. But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something. Is that basically what you're arguing?

Not really.

See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the item, but, none the less, just like those bits of plastic jewelry they are vastly worthless.

This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

If they confer a direct and astute in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.

You're simply shifting your argument to safer ground. You're now talking about real world monetary value and not the "you are guaranteed to get something" you clearly started with.

"Guaranteed to get something" is just not a defining characteristic of not gambling.

Cash for a chance at more cash is a better argument but still not the definitive criteria some want it to be. It doesn't address lotteries with items instead of cash as the payoff and it certainly does not address the perceived value of one digital item vs. another one which is a new a developing idea about which things are valuable to us.

Value is a consensual thing when applied to items. There is no intrinsic reason why a diamond is worth X times more than a lump of coal. Sure there is a natural rarity difference and an aesthetic difference but its worth is still something we consensually and arbitrarily assign to it.

I don't think anyone would argue that buying a $100 ticket for a chance at a diamond is not gambling even if the guaranteed consolation price is a a lump of coal. But that's happening in the real world and the diamond can be converted to cash. So no problem thinking of it as gambling and getting the necessary permit to hold that lottery.

What about an in game diamond lottery that only has value in that game? If the players who inhabit that virtual world consensually apply an arbitrary value to it and the way to obtain it is to pay real world cash for a chance from a box that may also give you a lump of coal how is that emotionally and mechanically different from its real world equivalent?

It's still gambling albeit with a virtual payoff of dubious value and if it was just pretend gambling with no real world cash needed to do it that would be a relatively harmless thing on the same level as simulated in game violence or sex.

But you add real world cash to it to get the ball rolling and I can see a legitimate reason for people to start wondering just how different this is compared to traditional real world gambling.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

Eldurian said:

I guess just not playing games that use a monetization model that you don't agree with doesn't work? Personally I would never play a game that requires me to buy lootboxes to get things I want either, and that's stopped me from playing games a grand total of 0 times.

Companies are under no obligation to make the products you want, and the government is not the tool to force them to make things the way you want them made, but believe it or not capitalism has actually been doing a great job here. That's why it's not an issue for anyone who isn't specifically looking for outlier cases to be mad about.

Because consumers don't want to be forced to use lootboxes and the market has responded by almost never doing that.

Capitalism has done wonders for this genre? How do you reconcile that with the opinion you hold that the genre is dying?

Lootboxes work by circumventing the need for popular support for the model. Check the stats on how much of a percentage whales make up in terms of revenue for these games. You don't need a lot of folks who like it, just relatively few with deep pockets.

Because you're putting words in my mouth bud. I didn't say that capitalism has done wonders for the genre, I've said capitalism has negated the loot box issue by making it so that loot boxes are highly optional in pretty much every game where they exist.

However, if we want to talk about using the nanny state and my opinions.

Leveling additions are unhealthy. They do no good for anyone just have people killing time so they can feel powerful in a virtual world. @Slapshot1188 - They instill unhealthy habits in children and do incredible phycological harm. THINK OF THE CHILDREN DAMMIT!

I move we have the nanny state ban all games with leveling to end these horrible issues. It's the only sensible thing to do.

Leveling additions are part of playing the game. It means you can sink more hours into the game and still see obvious progression.

Hobbies are ways to spend free time. Your analogy completely ignores this Eldurian. Lootboxes don't create time sinks, they eliminate them. It does nothing for the longevity of the hobby, because as @Iselin has mentioned many times, it's turned resources towards exclusively creating cash shop items to buy instead of solely more gameplay content you can play through.

Capitalism allowed devs to make behind-the-scenes changes to code to the detriment of their players while simultaneously preventing any consumer from actually owning anything they "purchase". It has very much damaged the industry from a consumer perspective.

Eldurian · May 2018

Scorchien said:

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

First .. you dont snort crack you smoke it ..

2nd .. your crusade against leveling and vertical progression , has no place in this discussion , it seems you almost , dare i say, have an Addiction to injecting this narrative into every thread ..

3rd .. life is Leveling .. no different than gaming .. you strive always to improve in skills and gear ... Vertically .. Yes .. bettering oneself is addictive .. Horizontly progressing in life will get you crushed

I guess you would know how crack is used. My own knowledge on the subject is admittedly a bit sparse. Good thing we have you to correct me.

I've said it many times before but for those who don't want it to sink in, it never will. Play hot-cross buns 1000 times and then try to play through the fire and the flames or a classical masterpiece.

Not going to work. But it would work that way if it was an MMO because you'd have high enough "music" skills.

Leveling isn't a reward for diligently applying yourself to a hobby. Its a reward for for mindlessly running through motions. I have yet to play any game ever in which I found the act of leveling to present a challenge or push the limits of my abilities they way I had to in hobbies such as sports.

Repetitive motions giving the illusion of success feeds an unhealthy addiction and creates unrealistic expectations in the same way participation trophies do.

But like I said, I'm saying this on a forum primarily inhabited to people who have an addition they will deny is unhealthy until the cows come home. So go ahead and circle your wagons but your echo chamber doesn't alter the facts.

Eldurian · May 2018

Simply put, if you want to attack other's additions. Maybe you should put down your own crackpipe first.

Ungood · May 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Irrelevant. If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try. Maybe I’ll support you. Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.

As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards. It goes on and on. So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes. He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

We can do better than this.

So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?

Keep making stupid analogies. It's not helping your cause.

Anyone that has watched a 6 year old child dump 3 dollars into a 25Cent gumball machine, because they wanted the purple one, knows how apt my analogy is.

You simply don't like it, but a gumball machine is a perfect analogy to use for lootboxes, as the only thing that makes one gumball better then another, is the desire for the color, just like 99% of all MMO's with lootboxes, which are purely cosmetic junk.

If it's a bad analogy, then.. Prove me Wrong.

Ungood · May 2018

MadFrenchie said:

Ungood said:

Quizzical said:

Ungood said:

craftseeker said:

Ungood said:

Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling.

The only variable, is you are paying to roll.

Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.

I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.

So let me make sure I have this straight. If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling. But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something. Is that basically what you're arguing?

Not really.

See it works like this. With a Loot Box, it is like putting money into a vending machine, that is full of random junk jewelry, and getting a Red one as opposed to the Blue one you want, but the drive and desire for the Blue one is because you know their is only 1 blue one in the whole dispenser, never realizing that both are worthless junk, and worth the same to the retailer and creator of the product.

As such, unlike gambling, the only value these "items" have, is based on what someone else will pay for it, or appeasing personal vanity, ergo, what you will pay for it. But the in-game item, just like those bits of plastic jewelry, are vastly worthless.

This is of course, if the are purely cosmetic.

If they confer a direct and conspicuous in-game advantage, that is a whole other matter.

Unless there's a legal RMT market, nothing you win has any value whatsoever. It's not even yours.

Shred ain't it...you spend money to roll the bones on a game of chance to get a totally worthless item that you can't even own.

But in the end, my point still stands, even with your MtG analogy, it costs the creator of the cards the same to make any one of them, in essence from a production point, all the cards have the same identical value, so everyone gets the exact same value from the company, as such any value the cards have outside that production cost, is something we the gamers have arbitrarily placed upon those cards, simply because we want them.

IE: The rarest card in the game may not have the highest value if no one wants it. Where an uncommon card may be of great value due not only due to it being uncommon but also being sought after for it's abilities.

Ergo... Supply and Demand. With both of them being fabricated by the players, not the company.

Which is how Lootboxes work, in reality, they really are just colored gumballs, after all we are just going to chew them up and eventually spit them out, as we move on to the next gumball or game, as it were. As such, our desire for specific colors is based on what it does for us personally and the imposed rarity of that color by the supplier.. this is what drives us to want one gumball over another, and be willing to pay more for it... not some value placed upon it by the provider itself.

Unlike Money that has direct value, which is why any analogy that used such, is wrong, as none of these things has a fixed established value.

It's value is purely based on what you can sell it for, and what someone else will pay for it.

In GW2, the most expensive Dye right now is Permafrost, I think it looks stupid, but given it is limited edition and rare, I'd spend 100 gold on it, which I think would be a fair price, but, apparently others are willing spend over 1,000 gold for it, which I think is insane, but, their willingness to spend that money, does not make that dye worth more to me. It just means, if I get it, I can sell it to someone else for far more then I think it's worth.

Same hold true for MtG cards, I collected Artifacts, I gladly dropped a c-note for a Mox, but a Legendary Dragon was just sale fodder to me.

As such, this talk of "Value" comes from people who simply do not grasp the system, and why that value is really purely arbitrary.. like they say all the time on Antique Roadshow, "To the right buyer this could be worth ___" to everyone else, it's a stupid looking chamber pot..

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

@Slapshot1188 - Answer me honestly. Which do you think is doing more harm? Lootboxes or leveling? Because I would say that leveling has done far more damage, it essentially feeds addictive behaviors in those with low self-esteem. It's more commonplace, more socially acceptable, and I don't think as many parents are aware of the danger.

I'm 100% serious. If a kid has mommies credit card and is spending money on games without her knowing what they are doing then that's mommies problem and it's a huge deal whether they are paying for RNG lootboxes or guaranteed costumes, mounts, etc.

But while I am 100% against using government to play the role of parents for either children or adults. Let's ban games with leveling first. They do far more damage.

Of course I realize MMORPG.com is to leveling addicts what wesnortcrack.com would be to cocaine users but I think if you set aside your own biases you'll realize what I am saying is pretty true.

Irrelevant. If you want to create a law about the addictive nature of leveling games then go try. Maybe I’ll support you. Maybe I won’t. Don’t go shit on people that don’t want kids exposed to gambling which is already illegal.

As for “Mommy’sCredit Card”, that’s a lame argument and I think you know it. For many games a kid would just ask for a gift card, maybe even one for that game. For Blizzard games you can get battlenet or blizzard cards, for GW2 you buy Gem Cards, for SWTOR you buy Cartel Coin Cards. For ESO you buy Crown Cards. It goes on and on. So no... in general Johnny doesn’t go ask Mommy to buy gambling boxes. He asks for a gamecard which seems much more innocuous.

We can do better than this.

So, shall we remove gumball machines next, because the color you get is a gamble?

Keep making stupid analogies. It's not helping your cause.

Anyone that has watched a 6 year old child dump 3 dollars into a 25Cent gumball machine, because they wanted the purple one, knows how apt my analogy is.

You simply don't like it, but a gumball machine is a perfect analogy to use for lootboxes, as the only thing that makes one gumball better then another, is the desire for the color, just like 99% of all MMO's with lootboxes, which are purely cosmetic junk.

If it's a bad analogy, then.. Prove me Wrong.

No. Your Magic The Gathering analogy is closer than your stupid gumball color one. And yes, MTG and CCGs are probably a form of gambling marketed at kids. I use to collect them as well. Doesn't make it any better or worse.

But this isn't about MTG. It's not about whether you think lootboxes are gambling. Its about the FACT they they are now legally classified as gambling in a EU country with more to follow.

Now that it IS classified as gambling (see title and OP) it needs to get pulled away from children. I don't give a shit if you want to point at other things that should also be classified like that. If you want, go start a petition.

I for one am glad that reality is starting to set in. Market these all you want to informed adults but leave the kids out of it.

We can do better.

Eldurian · May 2018

A couple fairly small countries classifying something as gambling and outlawing it for people's own protection because "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" is no reason for the rest of the world to follow suit. I generally wouldn't live anywhere in the EU because I think it's an over-legalistic hellhole that tramples people's individual freedoms. Certainly not going to use EU countries as the model we should follow here.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

IE: The rarest card in the game may not have the highest value if no one wants it. Where an uncommon card may be of great value due not only due to it being uncommon but also being sought after for it's abilities.

Ergo... Supply and Demand. With both of them being fabricated by the players, not the company.

Except of course you conveniently leave out that the COMPANY is the one that designs the cards to be more valuable due to it's abilities and rarity. The abilities are not random. Nor is the rarity. They are placed there by the company which manipulates both to drive sales and revenue.

To say they are fabricated "by the players" is either incredibly naive or incredibly deceptive. Of course players will have individual wants and needs, but since the company controls the rules of the game AND the ability of the cards they directly impact both the rarity (how hard it is to obtain) and the abilities (how useful it is) of their cards.

And the company always controls the supply. That is not even worth discussion.

Ungood · May 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Now that it IS classified as gambling (see title and OP) it needs to get pulled away from children.

Simply put.. No.

We are this country, what we Outlaw, we Outlaw, we don't suddenly outlaw what some other country felt was worth outlawing.

Case in point, legal age of consent in Belgim is 16, should we change our laws to meet theirs, No.. we won't.. and won't do so, simply because their counts called it gambling.

In China, is it illegal to show any dead thing, as all MMO's in china have removed any graphics of dead things, IE: Zombies, Skills, Bones, Etc..

Should your country now do the same, because China did it? Didn't think so.

These pathetic arguments do not help your cause.

Iselin · May 2018

DMKano said:

Iselin said:

Quizzical said:

Ungood said:

craftseeker said:

Ungood said:

Loot boxes are gambling much in the same way rolling the dice in monopoly is gambling.

The only variable, is you are paying to roll.

Nope, false analogy. Did you read the ruling from the Belgian government? Loot boxes are gambling, just like slot machines are gambling.

I's disagree, only because you can't actually lose with a Loot Box, you are guaranteed to get something, much in the same way those random vending machine work, where kids put quarters in and get out cheap toys. They may not get what they want, but they will always get something.

So let me make sure I have this straight. If you pay $1 to have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 50% chance of nothing, that's gambling. But if you pay $2 to have a 50% chance of winning $3 and a 50% chance of winning $1, then that's not gambling, because in the latter you always win something. Is that basically what you're arguing?

Yup. That is exactly where that leads. It amazes me that he and Kano and others keep bringing that up as arguments for loot crates not being gambling in thread after thread.

There are intelligent conversations to be had about things such as real world monetary value, the transient worth of in game items that can disappear on a developer's whim, or whether a purely digital item worth with no intersection with the real world has a societal value in 2018 and beyond that makes it a valuable item for the purposes of the application of gambling regulations if they're obtained by spending cash for a chance to get one.

But "you always win something" isn't one of those conversations.

If we are going to go down the rabbit hole of virtual items worth due to any virtual items being at a whim of the developer, might as well talk about online games as a whole - because those are for sale and can disapper overnight.

The entire subject of value of anything virtual online including entire games should be considered.

What are we paying for exactly? Is it entrtainment value, are we really just paying for rights to use virtual items as long as developer says so?

Do we really own any virtual item when purchasing it - as it only exists within a scope of the game which the players dont own.

Who owns the characters on the account? Cant take them to a different game, can you?

My hunch is that players dont actually own anything virtual in online games, but are simply paying for the rights to use the items as long as their accounts are in good standing and developer keep the game running.

What about games that are shut down, what happens to ownership of virtual goods there?

Obviously there is a hugr difference in ownership of virtual goods, vs material goods.

No, not really a big difference in that respect. Memberships to gyms, golf or country clubs can also go poof. But they have value to some people while it lasts. And the obsolescence of other material goods over time also stops them from retaining their value - some eventually become 100% worthless. A lottery to acquire any of those things would still be a lottery and subject to whatever the regulations happen to be where the lottery happens.

Virtual goods have value for those who consider them valuable in the game they play. The possibility that they may cease to have value if the game shuts down doesn't take away from the perceived value they have while the game exists. Gambling for a chance at getting those things is still gambling.

Ungood · May 2018

For those wondering..

Just to give you an idea, of what you are dealing with in Belgium.

It's Illegal to place a bet or make a wager at a home game of poker, or any other kind of card game that could be considered gambling.

So, put that into consideration during this discussion that somehow this is a meaningful and powerful change of things.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Now that it IS classified as gambling (see title and OP) it needs to get pulled away from children.

Simply put.. No.

We are this country, what we Outlaw, we Outlaw, we don't suddenly outlaw what some other country felt was worth outlawing.

Case in point, legal age of consent in Belgim is 16, should we change our laws to meet theirs, No.. we won't.. and won't do so, simply because their counts called it gambling.

In China, is it illegal to show any dead thing, as all MMO's in china have removed any graphics of dead things, IE: Zombies, Skills, Bones, Etc..

Should your country now do the same, because China did it? Didn't think so.

These pathetic arguments do not help your cause.

The thread is about the FACT that it’s now classified as gambling in Belgium and soon the EU. Not zombies in China but nice try.

Here is a better analogy for you. It used to be legal to sell cigarettes to minors. Now in Florida and I believe all US states it is illegal to do so. Informed adults can do whatever they want as far as I am concerned, but not minors.

So cling to being able to market gambling devices to kids all you want. The tide is turning. Pressure is building.

We can do better.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

For those wondering..

Just to give you an idea, of what you are dealing with in Belgium.

It's Illegal to place a bet or make a wager at a home game of poker, or any other kind of card game that could be considered gambling.

So, put that into consideration during this discussion that somehow this is a meaningful and powerful change of things.

Per the BBC:

The move has been widely praised online, becoming the most upvoted topic on Reddit's news subreddit in April 2018 with one person calling it "brilliant" and praising it as a way to "avoid taking advantage of kids with fancy and shiny in-your-face computer graphics and images"

———————-

We can do better. Change is coming.

Ungood · May 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Ungood said:

IE: The rarest card in the game may not have the highest value if no one wants it. Where an uncommon card may be of great value due not only due to it being uncommon but also being sought after for it's abilities.

Ergo... Supply and Demand. With both of them being fabricated by the players, not the company.

Except of course you conveniently leave out that the COMPANY is the one that designs the cards to be more valuable due to it's abilities and rarity. The abilities are not random. Nor is the rarity. They are placed there by the company which manipulates both to drive sales and revenue.

To say they are fabricated "by the players" is either incredibly naive or incredibly deceptive. Of course players will have individual wants and needs, but since the company controls the rules of the game AND the ability of the cards they directly impact both the rarity (how hard it is to obtain) and the abilities (how useful it is) of their cards.

And the company always controls the supply. That is not even worth discussion.

No, the gumball works, because in the end, just because there are more or less of any color of gumball, or perhaps you like that color, does not give it intrinsic value.

Also, as far as MtG cards go, again, just because a card is rare, or powerful, does not make it valuable, case in point, Legendary Heros and Dragons, very, very powerful, and rare, most are worth far less then Uncommon Artifacts of their respective Sets.

Case in point, Arabian Nights expansion the most Valuable card is an Uncommon, not a Rare, the second most valuable card is ALSO an Uncommon.

Equally so, I am damn sure that Wizard of the Coast had no idea or control over, say, the all the Rare cards they made for the Legend Series, would span being worth anywhere from $22.50, to $5,200.00, so, trying to say "Oh they have control of what players will be attracted to" is a bad joke, told poorly.

Eldurian · May 2018

Oh man. Someone on reddit called it "brilliant". All arguments to the contrary are now invalid. Bow to your new Belgian overlords.

Well done Slapshot. You win this round.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

Ungood said:

For those wondering..

Just to give you an idea, of what you are dealing with in Belgium.

It's Illegal to place a bet or make a wager at a home game of poker, or any other kind of card game that could be considered gambling.

So, put that into consideration during this discussion that somehow this is a meaningful and powerful change of things.

For those wondering... This is probably going to come as a shock to Ungood, but this is actually also the same way half the states in the US treat it. Yes, for example in NY:

It's Illegal to place a bet or make a wager at a home game of poker, or any other kind of card game that could be considered gambling

So, put that into consideration during this discussion that some posters comments are totally not researched or relevant.

http://www.pokerdiy.com/faq/home-poker-law

How embarrassing...

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