I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
I'm playing Darket Dungeon right now, and a massive part of the game is that dying sucks, but, that is the nature and design of the game, a premise the whole game is built around.
On the flip side of that, Never once while playing EQ, did I ever do a corpse run and lost 3 hours worth of grinding, thinking "wow it's great that dying sucks", equally so, while playing GW2, as I way point after falling to my death in the middle of a jump puzzle, never once did think "Wow, the only thing this game is missing is that when I die, it should suck balls"
So.. what game have you played, where you have died, and though "You know, it should suck more when that happens".. ?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'm not sure why anyone puts effort into replying to you.
Why do you think I have that guy using one of my 5 forum ignore slots for many months now? He's like a broken record.
I also can't stand people who totally lack empathy for other players, refusing to acknowledge that behind every character there's a human being behind a keyboard. Because you CAN kill a newbie/lowbie doesn't mean you MUST kill that newbie/lowbie. People playing to make defenseless player's life miserable disgust me.
Now if you guys could stop quoting him all the time... because I still see the damned quotes :P
I cannot abide by people who refuse to at least consider other people's opinions. Those that doggedly refuse to see anything from anyone else's point of view and then retreat to some lofty vantage point in the pretence that they don't have an agenda.
I have experienced plenty of fear while doing PvE in Everquest as I related in my post on the previous page. There is a great deal of merit in creating an atmosphere where you play carefully but too punishing a game can also drive people away but some penalties must exist.
I'm playing Darket Dungeon right now, and a massive part of the game is that dying sucks, but, that is the nature and design of the game, a premise the whole game is built around.
On the flip side of that, Never once while playing EQ, did I ever do a corpse run and lost 3 hours worth of grinding, thinking "wow it's great that dying sucks", equally so, while playing GW2, as I way point after falling to my death in the middle of a jump puzzle, never once did think "Wow, the only thing this game is missing is that when I die, it should suck balls"
So.. what game have you played, where you have died, and though "You know, it should suck more when that happens".. ?
They are two different game models.
Darkest Dungeon isn't about your personal character, it's about your roster of characters. Very much like x-com. Also, I never feel the dying in either of those games as being harsh as there is always another character inbound.
But to answer your question, Aion could have used a harsher death penalty, Lord of the Rings Online could have used a harsher death penalty but also a "different" death penalty as their death penalty involves you waiting and "not playing" because if you were to do so it would be a debuff.
Solo games don't usually have you resurrect, you just die and you load up the last save.
They could make it so that it's part of the story that you would resurrect but without your gear. I would very much be for that.
As far as game hardships, I'll leave this last bit (something I've mentioned in other threads before) I have a friend who doesn't play video games with one exception: The Elder Scrolls games (not the mmo).
Every time he plays one he says "I wish that you had to sleep or your character would get tired" or "I wish that you had to eat and drink or your character would be weak".
Now, this was before the iNeed mod or Bethesda's survival mod.
I bring this up because not only is he not a "gamer" he barely registers as a "player" of video games. Yet he likes/desires hardships.
I should add I loved the corpse runs n Vanguard as I would make my way through some very dangerous dungeons/caves and I knew I couldn't make a mistake or else I would pay for it. And, if I died and had to go in to get my corpse that was actually fun. My own little Oceans Eleven.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
"FEAR"obviously adds another layer to game immersion but i detest the way 99.9% of the devs do it. two tricks almost always used...DARK none to very poor lighting. The second is to have mobs/foes pop out of thin air right on top of you,to me both ideas are shallow lazy efforts. Yeah it works the first time,i mean i was really hooked into a Quake expansion pack with the sounds done by Nine Inch Nails,it gave the game that eerie really dangerous feeling to it.Yes the idea of dark was used and yes mobs popping out of thin air,but once having experienced this design it no longer holds the same weight in future games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I've always wanted dying to suck based on the possible reward. This is just one aspect of PvE, so keep that in mind. PvP is an entirely different thing. But shouldn't going after the top treasures of a game be riskier? Assaulting the biggest and meanest of Dragons, or working your way through the deepest of dungeons with huge rewards?
That vs. dying as a newb vs. rats, and all the way in between, should have a scale of death suckage from "try again" to "Oh Holy Bastards Of Darkness!!!!"
I've always wanted dying to suck based on the possible reward. This is just one aspect of PvE, so keep that in mind. PvP is an entirely different thing. But shouldn't going after the top treasures of a game be riskier? Assaulting the biggest and meanest of Dragons, or working your way through the deepest of dungeons with huge rewards?
That vs. dying as a newb vs. rats, and all the way in between, should have a scale of death suckage from "try again" to "Oh Holy Bastards Of Darkness!!!!"
This is interesting. I always disliked EQ's "XP penalty" because dieing to a lowly Orc Pawn was the same as to a Crag Spider and yet you had to kill 10x the mobs to get the XP back.
I'm currently bouncing back and forth between 5th and 6th level on my Bard in Project 99. I'll ding 6th level, get my healing song, then try to take multiple gnoll mobs outside of Blackburrow. Unfortunately, I keep missing that one of the three is a "white con" instead of a "blue con" like the others. Whoops! Dead again.
Then it's back to gnoll killing for awhile until I ding 6 again.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I understand your attitude - you are playing a role - white knight, evil villain, and etc. But that role is in your mind, it is delusional. Kyleran is not a healer or a hero. There are not such in the games.
No. You don't. GAMES are delusional. They are illusions, not real. You do realize this, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm playing Darket Dungeon right now, and a massive part of the game is that dying sucks, but, that is the nature and design of the game, a premise the whole game is built around.
On the flip side of that, Never once while playing EQ, did I ever do a corpse run and lost 3 hours worth of grinding, thinking "wow it's great that dying sucks", equally so, while playing GW2, as I way point after falling to my death in the middle of a jump puzzle, never once did think "Wow, the only thing this game is missing is that when I die, it should suck balls"
So.. what game have you played, where you have died, and though "You know, it should suck more when that happens".. ?
They are two different game models.
Darkest Dungeon isn't about your personal character, it's about your roster of characters. Very much like x-com. Also, I never feel the dying in either of those games as being harsh as there is always another character inbound.
But to answer your question, Aion could have used a harsher death penalty, Lord of the Rings Online could have used a harsher death penalty but also a "different" death penalty as their death penalty involves you waiting and "not playing" because if you were to do so it would be a debuff.
Solo games don't usually have you resurrect, you just die and you load up the last save.
They could make it so that it's part of the story that you would resurrect but without your gear. I would very much be for that.
As far as game hardships, I'll leave this last bit (something I've mentioned in other threads before) I have a friend who doesn't play video games with one exception: The Elder Scrolls games (not the mmo).
Every time he plays one he says "I wish that you had to sleep or your character would get tired" or "I wish that you had to eat and drink or your character would be weak".
Now, this was before the iNeed mod or Bethesda's survival mod.
I bring this up because not only is he not a "gamer" he barely registers as a "player" of video games. Yet he likes/desires hardships.
I should add I loved the corpse runs n Vanguard as I would make my way through some very dangerous dungeons/caves and I knew I couldn't make a mistake or else I would pay for it. And, if I died and had to go in to get my corpse that was actually fun. My own little Oceans Eleven.
Im gonna agree with Sovrath again here, and add , i have hundreds of hours in Darkest Dungeon .. Dying is barely a speed bump
One of my favorite moments in gaming occurred with that game. I had just bought it on sale and I was playing. My character got too much stress and died due to a heart attack. I LOL'd big time.
I returned the game before my 2 hours was up because I saw the inherent grind in it and I'm too much of a graphics whore, but it is well done.
also, there is a fine line between hardship and tedium. It is very difficult to separate the two.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I'm playing Darket Dungeon right now, and a massive part of the game is that dying sucks, but, that is the nature and design of the game, a premise the whole game is built around.
On the flip side of that, Never once while playing EQ, did I ever do a corpse run and lost 3 hours worth of grinding, thinking "wow it's great that dying sucks", equally so, while playing GW2, as I way point after falling to my death in the middle of a jump puzzle, never once did think "Wow, the only thing this game is missing is that when I die, it should suck balls"
So.. what game have you played, where you have died, and though "You know, it should suck more when that happens".. ?
They are two different game models.
Darkest Dungeon isn't about your personal character, it's about your roster of characters. Very much like x-com. Also, I never feel the dying in either of those games as being harsh as there is always another character inbound.
But to answer your question, Aion could have used a harsher death penalty, Lord of the Rings Online could have used a harsher death penalty but also a "different" death penalty as their death penalty involves you waiting and "not playing" because if you were to do so it would be a debuff.
Solo games don't usually have you resurrect, you just die and you load up the last save.
They could make it so that it's part of the story that you would resurrect but without your gear. I would very much be for that.
As far as game hardships, I'll leave this last bit (something I've mentioned in other threads before) I have a friend who doesn't play video games with one exception: The Elder Scrolls games (not the mmo).
Every time he plays one he says "I wish that you had to sleep or your character would get tired" or "I wish that you had to eat and drink or your character would be weak".
Now, this was before the iNeed mod or Bethesda's survival mod.
I bring this up because not only is he not a "gamer" he barely registers as a "player" of video games. Yet he likes/desires hardships.
I should add I loved the corpse runs n Vanguard as I would make my way through some very dangerous dungeons/caves and I knew I couldn't make a mistake or else I would pay for it. And, if I died and had to go in to get my corpse that was actually fun. My own little Oceans Eleven.
Im gonna agree with Sovrath again here, and add , i have hundreds of hours in Darkest Dungeon .. Dying is barely a speed bump
I just lost 4 level 6 characters to one encounter.. because one went irrational would not flee, and was the last one alive, that hurts.
Now, it may seem like a Roster,. but the only thing that makes a characters death matter is the time lost building them up, which is really the most anyone can take from you.
I mean if not for the time investment lost, there really is no sting to death in a game.
As such any mechanic, be it body fetching to perma-death, is simply just a loss of progress/time. No matter how harsh the death pen it, even up to perma-death, It simply turns the MMO into a Multi-player version of Darkest Dungeon.
and .. what did you say.. death was a speed bump in that game.. as it would be any game with less a penalty.. and in that game.. it was perma-death.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I just lost 4 level 6 characters to one encounter.. because one went irrational would not flee, and was the last one alive, that hurts.
Now, it may seem like a Roster,. but the only thing that makes a characters death matter is the time lost building them up, which is really the most anyone can take from you.
I mean if not for the time investment lost, there really is no sting to death in a game.
As such any mechanic, be it body fetching to perma-death, is simply just a loss of progress/time. No matter how harsh the death pen it, even up to perma-death, It simply turns the MMO into a Multi-player version of Darkest Dungeon.
and .. what did you say.. death was a speed bump in that game.. as it would be any game with less a penalty.. and in that game.. it was perma-death.
I think the issue here is how one views losing 4 level 6 characters. The first time I tried to retreat a boss encounter the same thing happened. It was the first time I had attempted it and I lost the entire crew.
To me was was epically amusing as the stress had accumulated, one died from a heart attack, another was just shouting things the healer could barely keep them alive ... and I just imagined this ...
Now to me, playing a game has several axis, one is the positive, I win, I get the good gearz, I get the desired "ending", I get the girl, I march toward the big bad and it fears me or ... I get decimated in one of any fun, amusing ways.
I think if you are playing a game like Darkest Dungeon and can't appreciate the moment it all goes "tits up" or you are playing X-Com and everything just doesn't roll your way and you can't see the fun in that then you are missing a component to these games that is all part of the experience.
which is why I took my armor off in that Morrowind example and trudged all the way to the nearest town so I could heal myself. If I can't take "the bad" the game has to offer then it's all just "good". I don't think that's fun.
"yay, you passed 'Go' again, here's $200 dollars. Wait, you hit Boardwalk; no worries, it's free rent day!"
"Well, at least I have the chance to go to jail"
"Nope, we took those out! No jail for you! Now why don't you just land on Free Parking, grab all that extra money we have stored there and go hit "Go" again you scamp"!
hmmm and now I think I'll play some Darkest Dungeon and do an Epic Quest. Thanks!
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I just lost 4 level 6 characters to one encounter.. because one went irrational would not flee, and was the last one alive, that hurts.
Now, it may seem like a Roster,. but the only thing that makes a characters death matter is the time lost building them up, which is really the most anyone can take from you.
I mean if not for the time investment lost, there really is no sting to death in a game.
As such any mechanic, be it body fetching to perma-death, is simply just a loss of progress/time. No matter how harsh the death pen it, even up to perma-death, It simply turns the MMO into a Multi-player version of Darkest Dungeon.
and .. what did you say.. death was a speed bump in that game.. as it would be any game with less a penalty.. and in that game.. it was perma-death.
I think the issue here is how one views losing 4 level 6 characters. The first time I tried to retreat a boss encounter the same thing happened. It was the first time I had attempted it and I lost the entire crew.
To me was was epically amusing as the stress had accumulated, one died from a heart attack, another was just shouting things the healer could barely keep them alive ... and I just imagined this ...
Now to me, playing a game has several axis, one is the positive, I win, I get the good gearz, I get the desired "ending", I get the girl, I march toward the big bad and it fears me or ... I get decimated in one of any fun, amusing ways.
I think if you are playing a game like Darkest Dungeon and can't appreciate the moment it all goes "tits up" or you are playing X-Com and everything just doesn't roll your way and you can't see the fun in that then you are missing a component to these games that is all part of the experience.
which is why I took my armor off in that Morrowind example and trudged all the way to the nearest town so I could heal myself. If I can't take "the bad" the game has to offer then it's all just "good". I don't think that's fun.
"yay, you passed 'Go' again, here's $200 dollars. Wait, you hit Boardwalk; no worries, it's free rent day!"
"Well, at least I have the chance to go to jail"
"Nope, we took those out! No jail for you! Now why don't you just land on Free Parking, grab all that extra money we have stored there and go hit "Go" again you scamp"!
hmmm and now I think I'll play some Darkest Dungeon and do an Epic Quest. Thanks!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just lost 4 level 6 characters to one encounter.. because one went irrational would not flee, and was the last one alive, that hurts.
Now, it may seem like a Roster,. but the only thing that makes a characters death matter is the time lost building them up, which is really the most anyone can take from you.
I mean if not for the time investment lost, there really is no sting to death in a game.
As such any mechanic, be it body fetching to perma-death, is simply just a loss of progress/time. No matter how harsh the death pen it, even up to perma-death, It simply turns the MMO into a Multi-player version of Darkest Dungeon.
and .. what did you say.. death was a speed bump in that game.. as it would be any game with less a penalty.. and in that game.. it was perma-death.
I think the issue here is how one views losing 4 level 6 characters. The first time I tried to retreat a boss encounter the same thing happened. It was the first time I had attempted it and I lost the entire crew.
To me was was epically amusing as the stress had accumulated, one died from a heart attack, another was just shouting things the healer could barely keep them alive ... and I just imagined this ...
Now to me, playing a game has several axis, one is the positive, I win, I get the good gearz, I get the desired "ending", I get the girl, I march toward the big bad and it fears me or ... I get decimated in one of any fun, amusing ways.
I think if you are playing a game like Darkest Dungeon and can't appreciate the moment it all goes "tits up" or you are playing X-Com and everything just doesn't roll your way and you can't see the fun in that then you are missing a component to these games that is all part of the experience.
which is why I took my armor off in that Morrowind example and trudged all the way to the nearest town so I could heal myself. If I can't take "the bad" the game has to offer then it's all just "good". I don't think that's fun.
"yay, you passed 'Go' again, here's $200 dollars. Wait, you hit Boardwalk; no worries, it's free rent day!"
"Well, at least I have the chance to go to jail"
"Nope, we took those out! No jail for you! Now why don't you just land on Free Parking, grab all that extra money we have stored there and go hit "Go" again you scamp"!
hmmm and now I think I'll play some Darkest Dungeon and do an Epic Quest. Thanks!
It is true, it is how someone views losing 4, 6th level characters. For me, I had done all I could to keep one of the original characters I started with Dismas, alive, all the way.. and then he died on me.. after MANY close calls, and in more then situation being the sole survivor.
But again, it all comes down to the game you play, and never once while playing a game, did I think harsher death penalties would have made the game in it's current start, more fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I've always wanted dying to suck based on the possible reward. This is just one aspect of PvE, so keep that in mind. PvP is an entirely different thing. But shouldn't going after the top treasures of a game be riskier? Assaulting the biggest and meanest of Dragons, or working your way through the deepest of dungeons with huge rewards?
That vs. dying as a newb vs. rats, and all the way in between, should have a scale of death suckage from "try again" to "Oh Holy Bastards Of Darkness!!!!"
This is interesting. I always disliked EQ's "XP penalty" because dieing to a lowly Orc Pawn was the same as to a Crag Spider and yet you had to kill 10x the mobs to get the XP back.
I'm currently bouncing back and forth between 5th and 6th level on my Bard in Project 99. I'll ding 6th level, get my healing song, then try to take multiple gnoll mobs outside of Blackburrow. Unfortunately, I keep missing that one of the three is a "white con" instead of a "blue con" like the others. Whoops! Dead again.
Then it's back to gnoll killing for awhile until I ding 6 again.
That's not what I mean, but that's some ridiculously bad design there.
This is one of the many reasons I don't like level spreads like they are, far too much power gap. But that aside, my point is that the top MOBs should be much riskier, period. Not per level. Per the game world. If you MUST have levels, then what you do is make higher level characters suffer more vs. such MOBs than lower level characters who simply couldn't survive anyways. You do that by equal loss, with harder recovery for the higher levels by the nature of the game. Hope you understand that. But at the same time, these top MOBs would be more expensive to lose your life to. Lots of ways to do that. One way would be special "Life Drains" that affect the characters IF they are hit by them. Things like that. Nothing should be written in stone, but the risk should be there. And it should happen with no "outs" or workarounds. You know, like maybe a critical hit by a Soul Eater MOB might take extra points away. Or a special attack where a Dragon entirely swallows the character, removing stat points at a greater degree than normal.
Heck, I'd love to see a game where a character can be turned to stone by a powerful demi-god and left there until either other players make their way in there and remove the curse (no matter how long it takes), or the player simply gives up the character and starts a new one in that slot.
It is true, it is how someone views losing 4, 6th level characters. For me, I had done all I could to keep one of the original characters I started with Dismas, alive, all the way.. and then he died on me.. after MANY close calls, and in more then situation being the sole survivor.
But again, it all comes down to the game you play, and never once while playing a game, did I think harsher death penalties would have made the game in it's current start, more fun.
I guess that's exactly what it comes down to.
I will add, that when I was playing Morrowind for the first time and I defeated Dagoth Ur, it was too easy for my taste so I reloaded several times and kept doing it to see if it was a fluke. It wasn't so I loaded up the construction set (or whatever they called it at that point) and made him harder.
Lastly, after I did a bit of an epic quest in Darkest Dungeon (last night) I decided I wanted to take some lower characters through a longer run but didn't have a healer. Got a level 0 healer for my level 3 characters and entered. The messages from the healer were "this is too hard for me".
granted should could just about keep people alive but I went on anyway, almost wiping a few times and losing my few level 3 characters but was determined to see how far they would go. And lo and behold, I finished and the healer jumped two levels.
Sure, these are lower level characters but pushing myself to see if I can be successful or fail is fun for me and I'm always willing to take the loss.
I've done this with level 6 characters, the first run of the final run of the game and though I thought I would lose all of them just to see what the run was about I ended up completing it first time.
So I guess that's my my modus operandi. I like going to the edge as long as I feel I've prepared, I want a sense of danger, if it feels easy it's not going to be personally enjoyable (though I can do easy runs with friends and that's not about game play, it's about the camaraderie) and I don't mind losing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Infiltrate a Corp and ratfuck the people moving said expensive cargo to your pirate buddies. Now that's where the fun is.
Not only an act of aggression, but is actually "evil" as I define it, but at least since you are pirates, behaving as expected.
When it gets annoying is if former "friends" decide to do it because they get their panties in a wad for "reasons."
Anyone that played EvE and does not expect everyone else in the game to betray, backstab, or otherwise undermine them.. is just a fool waiting to be taken advantage of.
Know the game you play.. and more then that.. know the kinds of people that want to play that kind of game.
Just like if I played a Full Loot PvP game, I'd kill people first then question their motives for coming near me..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If you're looking for fear, check out World's Adrift. nearly full loot pvp, survival (your ship is your base and can be lost at anythime). It's coming to steam early access May 17, but there are keys available if you want to try pre-EA wipe during the "pre-early access" phase.
Infiltrate a Corp and ratfuck the people moving said expensive cargo to your pirate buddies. Now that's where the fun is.
Not only an act of aggression, but is actually "evil" as I define it, but at least since you are pirates, behaving as expected.
When it gets annoying is if former "friends" decide to do it because they get their panties in a wad for "reasons."
Anyone that played EvE and does not expect everyone else in the game to betray, backstab, or otherwise undermine them.. is just a fool waiting to be taken advantage of.
Know the game you play.. and more then that.. know the kinds of people that want to play that kind of game.
Just like if I played a Full Loot PvP game, I'd kill people first then question their motives for coming near me..
Actually IMO EVEs players overall are a cut "above" those I've run into in most other games, but of course YMMV.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you're looking for fear, check out World's Adrift. nearly full loot pvp, survival (your ship is your base and can be lost at anythime). It's coming to steam early access May 17, but there are keys available if you want to try pre-EA wipe during the "pre-early access" phase.
That is fear of rape and pillage. It only means games have not evolved past primal instincts and is the driving force why new MMORPGs fail to live up to their potential. Fear must exist in every moment of every decision. If an overwhelming force takes out an easy target, fear does not exist for the attackers and therefore is not an example of true fear.
I keep seeing the example constantly about the fear of losing everything you carry in full loot games. That is not fear. That is an inconvenience. Fear would be that you only have one life. Fear would be the killer facing social justice and losing their freedom. Fear is primal and reflective of an insurmountable force that cannot be countered. You may overcome fear but this does not mean fear itself is removed from the equation ... or it wouldn't be there to overcome.
The reason why a complex variety of primal emotions or responses is wanted in a fantasy world; they are core properties of real life required to create immersion. Game play systems drive this but are woefully lacking in MMORPGs. Developers cater to individual rights in a game trying emulate society and culture. That is the essence of their failure and why fear no longer exists. It is why every individual human trait is exploited for cash shop earnings. When social interest is ignored you only have barbarism and developers profit from this. It's really very simple.
So, true fear only exists when consequence is measured equally across all participants. This demands complex systems within MMORPGs which developers are not willing do. By it's very nature it restricts actions which, historically, has been something BOTH developers AND players often avoid and is also why we see a decline in genre gaming. There are players who want these restrictions but it means games exist where fear is an overarching truth ... within an industry constructed on not allowing it.
My generation: Dad, " nobody owes you anything in life. You are your own man. You earn what you earn and respect others unless they disrespect you.".
Result: Loves risk vs reward, challenge.
Current generation: Dad, " It's ok son, you got 8th place but everyone gets a trophy!!, you did amazing!!, let's go have some ice cream and I will buy you 8 things you don't need, so you can sit and stare at your phone all day and be useless"
Result: Asks dad for 60$ to purchase a boost in world of warcraft.
Just like if I played a Full Loot PvP game, I'd kill people first then question their motives for coming near me..
Translation: "in a full loot FFA PvP game, I'm roleplaying a psychopath".
So typical.
I am not "role-paying" shit... I just know the kind of sociopaths and psychopaths that gravitate to those kinds of games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
On the flip side of that, Never once while playing EQ, did I ever do a corpse run and lost 3 hours worth of grinding, thinking "wow it's great that dying sucks", equally so, while playing GW2, as I way point after falling to my death in the middle of a jump puzzle, never once did think "Wow, the only thing this game is missing is that when I die, it should suck balls"
So.. what game have you played, where you have died, and though "You know, it should suck more when that happens".. ?
I have experienced plenty of fear while doing PvE in Everquest as I related in my post on the previous page. There is a great deal of merit in creating an atmosphere where you play carefully but too punishing a game can also drive people away but some penalties must exist.
Darkest Dungeon isn't about your personal character, it's about your roster of characters. Very much like x-com. Also, I never feel the dying in either of those games as being harsh as there is always another character inbound.
But to answer your question, Aion could have used a harsher death penalty, Lord of the Rings Online could have used a harsher death penalty but also a "different" death penalty as their death penalty involves you waiting and "not playing" because if you were to do so it would be a debuff.
Solo games don't usually have you resurrect, you just die and you load up the last save.
They could make it so that it's part of the story that you would resurrect but without your gear. I would very much be for that.
As far as game hardships, I'll leave this last bit (something I've mentioned in other threads before) I have a friend who doesn't play video games with one exception: The Elder Scrolls games (not the mmo).
Every time he plays one he says "I wish that you had to sleep or your character would get tired" or "I wish that you had to eat and drink or your character would be weak".
Now, this was before the iNeed mod or Bethesda's survival mod.
I bring this up because not only is he not a "gamer" he barely registers as a "player" of video games. Yet he likes/desires hardships.
I should add I loved the corpse runs n Vanguard as I would make my way through some very dangerous dungeons/caves and I knew I couldn't make a mistake or else I would pay for it. And, if I died and had to go in to get my corpse that was actually fun. My own little Oceans Eleven.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
two tricks almost always used...DARK none to very poor lighting.
The second is to have mobs/foes pop out of thin air right on top of you,to me both ideas are shallow lazy efforts.
Yeah it works the first time,i mean i was really hooked into a Quake expansion pack with the sounds done by Nine Inch Nails,it gave the game that eerie really dangerous feeling to it.Yes the idea of dark was used and yes mobs popping out of thin air,but once having experienced this design it no longer holds the same weight in future games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is just one aspect of PvE, so keep that in mind. PvP is an entirely different thing.
But shouldn't going after the top treasures of a game be riskier? Assaulting the biggest and meanest of Dragons, or working your way through the deepest of dungeons with huge rewards?
That vs. dying as a newb vs. rats, and all the way in between, should have a scale of death suckage from "try again" to "Oh Holy Bastards Of Darkness!!!!"
Once upon a time....
I continue to see in this thread a complete lack of consideration of what fear of death can contribute to immersion within a fantasy world.
There is a MASSIVE difference between:
A. Seeing how many times you can jump off a cliff and survive.
Vs.
B. Only have 1 attempt to see if you can jump off a cliff and survive.
A true MMORPG game world tries to find a balance between the 2 choices simply because it allows you to continue playing if you die out of necessity.
You stay sassy!
I'm currently bouncing back and forth between 5th and 6th level on my Bard in Project 99. I'll ding 6th level, get my healing song, then try to take multiple gnoll mobs outside of Blackburrow. Unfortunately, I keep missing that one of the three is a "white con" instead of a "blue con" like the others. Whoops! Dead again.
Then it's back to gnoll killing for awhile until I ding 6 again.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
One of my favorite moments in gaming occurred with that game. I had just bought it on sale and I was playing. My character got too much stress and died due to a heart attack. I LOL'd big time.
I returned the game before my 2 hours was up because I saw the inherent grind in it and I'm too much of a graphics whore, but it is well done.
also, there is a fine line between hardship and tedium. It is very difficult to separate the two.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Now, it may seem like a Roster,. but the only thing that makes a characters death matter is the time lost building them up, which is really the most anyone can take from you.
I mean if not for the time investment lost, there really is no sting to death in a game.
As such any mechanic, be it body fetching to perma-death, is simply just a loss of progress/time. No matter how harsh the death pen it, even up to perma-death, It simply turns the MMO into a Multi-player version of Darkest Dungeon.
and .. what did you say.. death was a speed bump in that game.. as it would be any game with less a penalty.. and in that game.. it was perma-death.
To me was was epically amusing as the stress had accumulated, one died from a heart attack, another was just shouting things the healer could barely keep them alive ... and I just imagined this ...
Now to me, playing a game has several axis, one is the positive, I win, I get the good gearz, I get the desired "ending", I get the girl, I march toward the big bad and it fears me or ... I get decimated in one of any fun, amusing ways.
I think if you are playing a game like Darkest Dungeon and can't appreciate the moment it all goes "tits up" or you are playing X-Com and everything just doesn't roll your way and you can't see the fun in that then you are missing a component to these games that is all part of the experience.
which is why I took my armor off in that Morrowind example and trudged all the way to the nearest town so I could heal myself. If I can't take "the bad" the game has to offer then it's all just "good". I don't think that's fun.
"yay, you passed 'Go' again, here's $200 dollars. Wait, you hit Boardwalk; no worries, it's free rent day!"
"Well, at least I have the chance to go to jail"
"Nope, we took those out! No jail for you! Now why don't you just land on Free Parking, grab all that extra money we have stored there and go hit "Go" again you scamp"!
hmmm and now I think I'll play some Darkest Dungeon and do an Epic Quest. Thanks!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But again, it all comes down to the game you play, and never once while playing a game, did I think harsher death penalties would have made the game in it's current start, more fun.
This is one of the many reasons I don't like level spreads like they are, far too much power gap. But that aside, my point is that the top MOBs should be much riskier, period. Not per level. Per the game world.
If you MUST have levels, then what you do is make higher level characters suffer more vs. such MOBs than lower level characters who simply couldn't survive anyways. You do that by equal loss, with harder recovery for the higher levels by the nature of the game.
Hope you understand that.
But at the same time, these top MOBs would be more expensive to lose your life to.
Lots of ways to do that. One way would be special "Life Drains" that affect the characters IF they are hit by them. Things like that. Nothing should be written in stone, but the risk should be there. And it should happen with no "outs" or workarounds.
You know, like maybe a critical hit by a Soul Eater MOB might take extra points away. Or a special attack where a Dragon entirely swallows the character, removing stat points at a greater degree than normal.
Heck, I'd love to see a game where a character can be turned to stone by a powerful demi-god and left there until either other players make their way in there and remove the curse (no matter how long it takes), or the player simply gives up the character and starts a new one in that slot.
Once upon a time....
I will add, that when I was playing Morrowind for the first time and I defeated Dagoth Ur, it was too easy for my taste so I reloaded several times and kept doing it to see if it was a fluke. It wasn't so I loaded up the construction set (or whatever they called it at that point) and made him harder.
Lastly, after I did a bit of an epic quest in Darkest Dungeon (last night) I decided I wanted to take some lower characters through a longer run but didn't have a healer. Got a level 0 healer for my level 3 characters and entered. The messages from the healer were "this is too hard for me".
granted should could just about keep people alive but I went on anyway, almost wiping a few times and losing my few level 3 characters but was determined to see how far they would go. And lo and behold, I finished and the healer jumped two levels.
Sure, these are lower level characters but pushing myself to see if I can be successful or fail is fun for me and I'm always willing to take the loss.
I've done this with level 6 characters, the first run of the final run of the game and though I thought I would lose all of them just to see what the run was about I ended up completing it first time.
So I guess that's my my modus operandi. I like going to the edge as long as I feel I've prepared, I want a sense of danger, if it feels easy it's not going to be personally enjoyable (though I can do easy runs with friends and that's not about game play, it's about the camaraderie) and I don't mind losing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When it gets annoying is if former "friends" decide to do it because they get their panties in a wad for "reasons."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Know the game you play.. and more then that.. know the kinds of people that want to play that kind of game.
Just like if I played a Full Loot PvP game, I'd kill people first then question their motives for coming near me..
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I keep seeing the example constantly about the fear of losing everything you carry in full loot games. That is not fear. That is an inconvenience. Fear would be that you only have one life. Fear would be the killer facing social justice and losing their freedom. Fear is primal and reflective of an insurmountable force that cannot be countered. You may overcome fear but this does not mean fear itself is removed from the equation ... or it wouldn't be there to overcome.
The reason why a complex variety of primal emotions or responses is wanted in a fantasy world; they are core properties of real life required to create immersion. Game play systems drive this but are woefully lacking in MMORPGs. Developers cater to individual rights in a game trying emulate society and culture. That is the essence of their failure and why fear no longer exists. It is why every individual human trait is exploited for cash shop earnings. When social interest is ignored you only have barbarism and developers profit from this. It's really very simple.
So, true fear only exists when consequence is measured equally across all participants. This demands complex systems within MMORPGs which developers are not willing do. By it's very nature it restricts actions which, historically, has been something BOTH developers AND players often avoid and is also why we see a decline in genre gaming. There are players who want these restrictions but it means games exist where fear is an overarching truth ... within an industry constructed on not allowing it.
You stay sassy!
My generation: Dad, " nobody owes you anything in life. You are your own man. You earn what you earn and respect others unless they disrespect you.".
Result: Loves risk vs reward, challenge.
Current generation: Dad, " It's ok son, you got 8th place but everyone gets a trophy!!, you did amazing!!, let's go have some ice cream and I will buy you 8 things you don't need, so you can sit and stare at your phone all day and be useless"
Result: Asks dad for 60$ to purchase a boost in world of warcraft.
But behaviour begets similar behaviour, there is a balance between being prepared and downing anyone who comes within shooting range.