The de-leveling in FFXI and corpse runs in games like AC or EQ are things I really don't miss. I mean, I'm all for having a death penalty like having a debuff that lowers your stats or reduces your xp rate for x amount of time but having to spend 10-15 minutes or more recovering your corpse is something that isn't fun to me especially when my play time is limited.
What I miss in MMO's is the challenge. There is none, at least not until you reach end game and do group content like raids. But the entire journey to get there is just a mindless grind. In most games you can literally just spam a few buttons and plow through enemies and quests and get to max level in a couple days or less. I appreciate certain mechanics that cater to more casual gamers who don't have a ton of time to invest in these games but making them easier is not something I want.
I remember a time when I played Lord of the Rings Online where getting to level 20 without dying and earning the "Undying" title actually meant something. Questing in the Barrow Downs and Old Forest and having to navigate through elite mobs and wandering rare elites there was a sense of danger and you could be in serious trouble real quick. They've changed all that now -- got rid of all the elites and made it easier for players to level without having to worry about dying. Other older MMO's have also taken this approach and it's sad. There's no more challenge and no sense of discovery.
I don't see any reason why one has to give a reason or rationale for liking an activity or enjoying certain aspects of a game.
I think you are trying to push a narrative and trigger people into falling for your accusation that one is a coward for not liking PvP. It is a poor attempt and easily seen through and one often employed by players who try to force their own interest on another person. You are trying to bully people who disagree with you by calling them cowardly for not liking PvP and that is the only reason you will accept. That does not make it true.
There is a disconnect as you are seeing things only from your point of view and refusing to accept that people do enjoy MMORPGs games for various reasons and many of them have nothing at all to do with PvP.
Your venial attempts at this line of reasoning is transparent and will fail against players who know exactly what they enjoy in games. Laughable that you actually think this attack on one's pride and displeasure at being labelled a coward is going to make one see things from your point of view.
I've given you several. 1. Different tastes. 2. They are looking for something different.
To say most pvp I've tried bores me and most pve doesnt, makes complete sense. It's just something you can't understand but you don't need to understand. All you need to do except that people are different.
Yeah because in PvP you fight stupid people and in PvE - so much fun with the great AI - that is simply silly. And your argument - I have a taste, is not an argument. People are different, games are different, everyone is right about everything if his taste is such, bla, bla, bla. You do not say - the fear and the PvP should not be implemented into the games, because there are such and such reasons. Like a toddler you repeating - I like it, I do no like it. There is not matter what you like or do not like. We are not talking about you - how selfish you should be to put the discussion into such a pointless direction. We are talking about MMORPGs and how they should be made, and if you do not have any reasonable arguments, I do not see why you argue here. I really do not care what you like or dislike, and it does not matter. The topic is another. If you want to talk about your subjective feelings - well make a topic.
The classic "progress loss = CHALLENGING!!" argument.
It was cool when I was a child, but as an adult I've got enough responsibility and consequence that I don't need more of it in my free time.
OK, how you suggest the risk to be evaluated and implemented into the gameplay?
Great time for me to jump in here, as progression is my primary reason for playing any game, MMO or single player.
I always set my personal progression goals and then perform gameplay which best supports them.
In MMOs that I enjoy my two main goals are to earn a bunch of in game money in order to buy or build whatever I want and to level my character.
Here's the key, those activites do not have to be challenging, interesting or what some call "fun" as that concept escapes me.
In fact if they are passive enough to watch Netflix, great, and probably a big reason why I dislike "action combat", far too busy for me.
What I want is something of near max efficiency and while I despise crafting I'll reluctantly do it if its worth my while.
I've yet to play a MMORPG yet where PVP was ever very efficient at achieving those goals, primarily in their designs but also because quite honestly, I really suck at it. (Wait until you are 60 before spouting off too much)
I will PVP for good cause, say to drive people out of my team's territory, especially if said invaders are messing with my progression, but I'll never join in on wars of aggression, and I always make that very clear to groups I join.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People's likes and dislikes are completely subjective.
The reasons why people play MMORPG are completely subjective.
Don't like that? Too bad. Quit being selfish and telling people what they should like.
I do not say what you should like. And I do not care what you like or dislike actually. This is not the topic of the conversation. You have zero arguments. No logic, no facts. You dislike the PvP. OK, I get it. But this is not we are talking about. This topic is not about you. What I like or dislike also does not matter. The important things are the logic, and the facts about the mechanisms of the gameplay in the MMORPGs.
It is very simple - you cannot be right or wrong, just because you like or dislike something. If you like mass shootings - that is wrong because of reasons. If you dislike the racism - that is right, because of logical reasons and facts. I doubt you are a toddler to explain you such obvious things. So I think you intentionally are trying to ruin the topic with pointless and stupid posts.
You were asking for reasons why people like or don't like pvp.
I gave them to you.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The mmo genre just needs to stop thirsting for money. I get that there's a lot of competition and competition tends to sway creativity in order to draw at least a steady flow of money, but the focus is on more money and not just enough. I know that's a stupid thing to say from a business perspective, but to compromise the integrity of the product by going from something where it takes extended periods to progress (weeks/months etc to level and actually having to remember to go to your trainer and actually having enough money on hand to learn the skills you need) to just logging in and being handed stuff is a bit extreme. If there's limits in place, the product can become modernized without completely compromising the integrity of the game, like yeah you can buy clears but maybe you get a 24 hr exp/loot drop penalty if you decide to play after buying etc.
No game has instilled in me a fear of death as much as Everquest. Which is why the mobs seemed more real to me in that game. And why I played with my head on a swivel, expecting trouble at every turn. I want Pantheon to bring that back.
See, here's what I don't get, you can actually have that feeling by playing on a PVP server.
Although I am a total carebear Ive often played on PVP servers and my favorite game is EVE, because succeeding in leveling or whatever was made more challenging and rewarding by the enemy player's presence.
When I played on the DAOC freeshard 4 or 5 years ago I did a lot of leveling in the frontiers due to a very good leveling bonus.
Unfortunately the restarted 1.69 version largely eschewed the bonuses so it was more efficient to level within the realms.
Now, very punishing death penalties are a bit different, I have to be able to well control my risk vs reward which I feel EVE mostly succeeds at vs more FFA games like DFO.
PvP servers/games are "frustration" not "fear." If 100% PvP players fought with any sembleance of honor, I'd gladly play on them. Unfortunately, PvP servers/games are populated by way too many immature murder hobos who don't have one iota of honor in them.
That, for me, is not fear. It's frustration.
I just view them as no different than how I would expect a dangerous, intelligent (sometimes) and unkillable NPC to act.
People always say they want more challenging AI but they really don't, as they still expect a reasonable chance to win.
That's not realistic, sometimes the "monsters" are just going to bury you, whether by numbers or power, and there really is not much difference to me whether its a player or a NPC.
In the "movies" heroes often do phenomenal tasks like "kill" something the size of a T-Rex.
It is far more realistic to believe the only real options are to avoid, run or hide, or the T-Rex is always going to win.
Or you can stay with the herd so at least if you can't kill the T-Rex he will likely eat one of your "mates" while you get safely away.
Remember, I don't have to out run the T-Rex, I just have to out run you.
It's about choice for me.
I "choose" to go after an "unkillable NPC." I want to learn from that NPC and improve my character.
I never "choose" to be PK'd by an asshat. They kill, taunt, beat the chest, and run away (if lucky), no learning there except "GIT GUD!!!"
Better AI? I want "smarter" AI, not better. Computers are infallible as long as input is accurate. They don't "miss shots", fat finger keys, or make mistakes unless programmed to. But I would like to see NPCs use more varying abilities and stop getting stuck by the environment
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
People's likes and dislikes are completely subjective.
The reasons why people play MMORPG are completely subjective.
Don't like that? Too bad. Quit being selfish and telling people what they should like.
I do not say what you should like. And I do not care what you like or dislike actually. This is not the topic of the conversation. You have zero arguments. No logic, no facts. You dislike the PvP. OK, I get it. But this is not we are talking about. This topic is not about you. What I like or dislike also does not matter. The important things are the logic, and the facts about the mechanisms of the gameplay in the MMORPGs.
It is very simple - you cannot be right or wrong, just because you like or dislike something. If you like mass shootings - that is wrong because of reasons. If you dislike the racism - that is right, because of logical reasons and facts. I doubt you are a toddler to explain you such obvious things. So I think you intentionally are trying to ruin the topic with pointless and stupid posts.
You were asking for reasons why people like or don't like pvp.
I gave them to you.
I was pulling for you, but they got you, too. You answerd every question and they didn't like the answer, so go back to the "I'm right" wall they throw up and plug the ears.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You were asking for reasons why people like or don't like pvp.
I gave them to you.
But, you do not. Why people like the PvP and every game must have PvP - because I like the PvP, PvE is boring, people are different so the PvP is better than the PvE. Do not force me to like what you like. You do not know anything about me. I like PvP - people like PvP - PvP is better, but PvE is boring. I have the right to have fun in the games. So the games must have PvP - that is your argumentation, and it is actually lack of such.
I know your position about the PvP from your first post. But I do not ask what you feel about the PvP, the topic is completely different. Do the games need more challenge and fear - and what you like or I like is not an argument, and cannot be such.
Great time for me to jump in here, as progression is my primary reason for playing any game, MMO or single player.
I always set my personal progression goals and then perform gameplay which best supports them.
In MMOs that I enjoy my two main goals are to earn a bunch of in game money in order to buy or build whatever I want and to level my character.
Here's the key, those activites do not have to be challenging, interesting or what some call "fun" as that concept escapes me.
In fact if they are passive enough to watch Netflix, great, and probably a big reason why I dislike "action combat", far too busy for me.
What I want is something of near max efficiency and while I despise crafting I'll reluctantly do it if its worth my while.
I've yet to play a MMORPG yet where PVP was ever very efficient at achieving those goals, primarily in their designs but also because quite honestly, I really suck at it. (Wait until you are 60 before spouting off too much)
I will PVP for good cause, say to drive people out of my team's territory, especially if said invaders are messing with my progression, but I'll never join in on wars of aggression, and I always make that very clear to groups I join.
The first part is reasonable and we could debate about the specific player attitude, where the gameplay (risk) progression is actually not important.
The second part is a nonsense. Wars of aggression? Because there are non aggressive and peaceful wars. Good cause for war? There is not such a thing.
If you don't understand what an aggressor has to do with conflict, I don't think you should ask questions like this. Or is this just forum PvP for you? If it is, you are losing. I'm not sure why anyone puts effort into replying to you.
I played literally thousands of hours on several early MMORPG's such as Ultima Online, Everquest, etc. I LOVED them! I have concluded that the reason I loved them so was NOT because it was easy to get to the end-game, but because it was HARD! It was hard because if/when I died, there was a consequence...a consequence that I feared. In Ultima Online, death meant anyone could loot your corpse...or at the very least, the monster actually grabbed an item off your body and you had to go kill the monster to get it back. In Everquest, when you died, you had to go do a corpse-run...sometimes at the bottom of a dungeon. I FEARED that!! And it was a rush to play every moment in a dungeon BECAUSE of that fear. To succeed in a dungeon meant a LOT. Nowadays, in almost all MMO's, there is no fear...if I die...bleh...so what...
I miss the fear of death...doesn't have to be perma death...doesn't mean you have to lose all your stuff...but death has to be something I fear for me to stick with a game...otherwise...its all Chutes and Ladders....
The only thing “fear” in a game ever accomplished was making you play the game in the safest manner possible. It’s a poor mechanic and that’s the reason it was abandoned.
Give me challenging overland content and keep the punishing time draining mechanics in the 90s where they belong.
You are aware that as PvE players we are very valuable to game companies.
Your little fit here about wanting PvP in all MMORPGs games isn't going to change things. Your rationale the AI cannot cause fear is also mistaken. I felt real fear in Everquest while searching for my corpse. Whether you wish to believe that or mock that will not change my mind and as a PvE player I will continue to go to forums of games that have PvP and advocate for PvP by choice. I will also only choose to support games that give me choice. My money my decision.
There is also one other thing I love to do when forced PvP games lose their population I make sure to go and parrot continuously how they should have allowed choice. I am obnoxious that way.
I "choose" to go after an "unkillable NPC." I want to learn from that NPC and improve my character.
I never "choose" to be PK'd by an asshat. They kill, taunt, beat the chest, and run away (if lucky), no learning there except "GIT GUD!!!"
Better AI? I want "smarter" AI, not better. Computers are infallible as long as input is accurate. They don't "miss shots", fat finger keys, or make mistakes unless programmed to. But I would like to see NPCs use more varying abilities and stop getting stuck by the environment
But we are talking about multiplayer games. Why do you need smarter AI if there are players?
I was pulling for you, but they got you, too. You answerd every question and they didn't like the answer, so go back to the "I'm right" wall they throw up and plug the ears.
I do not see how "I like" or "I dislike" is an answer. I ask very clearly why he likes the PvE, but dislikes the PvP - the answer was - I dislike it, because I dislike it. The sun is hot because it is hot. You are wrong because you are wrong. This is pure stupidity, but not an answer.
If you don't understand what an aggressor has to do with conflict, I don't think you should ask questions like this. Or is this just forum PvP for you? If it is, you are losing. I'm not sure why anyone puts effort into replying to you.
There is not such a thing as aggressor in the games. Except if someone uses verbal insults. Also in the real life, there is not such a thing as non aggressive war. What right had US to kill hundreds of thousands of people in Vietnam or Iraq? Who is good in Syria - the jihadists or the dictator? The Second world war started with a contract for peace between Germany and USSR - both invaded Poland. In Hamburg the western allies intentionally killed hundreds of thousands of civil citizens. The wars are acts of greed. And there is not such a thing as good or right war. The history is written from the winners.
As for the games, the so called wars are just mechanism for multiplayer competition.
The only thing “fear” in a game ever accomplished was making you play the game in the safest manner possible. It’s a poor mechanic and that’s the reason it was abandoned.
Give me challenging overland content and keep the punishing time draining mechanics in the 90s where they belong.
You can play safe only if the rules of the gameplay allow it. Like PvE server. Or PK rules. Which makes the fear or the challenge kind of pointless. How you will play safe a game, where to take risks is the only way to progress?
The concept is pretty simple. There is home defense, some one invades your territory, you defend it and drive them off.
Wars of aggression are when your leaders (in game or in real life) tell you to attack someone else's home to either plunder, punish or take control.
I think most here in the States would agree Vietnam was a war of aggression, probably true of the middle east, but our leaders say we are "defending" the world, or ourselves from some great evil (communism, terrorism, imaginary chemical weapons, gasoline for cars) that must be stopped.
At my age you realize how stupid most of those are, especially when peoples sons end up dying for them.
WII was different, the US did not join until attacked by Japan, and it was Germany who declared war on the US, not the other way around.
But enough about history, irrelevant to our conversation.
You should by now understand the concept. I won't go out on roams looking for people PVEing by themselves unless they are within my teams territory. (Or a group we are officially at war with, for reasons I agree on)
On occasions the group comes across such players, I don't join in on the kill, I let others have the "honor." Of course if we come across a war band, I'm game unless the group ventures from no mans land and into another neutral teams territory.
I often volunteer to be "the healer" as it then leaves me out of having to really do any killing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not see how "I like" or "I dislike" is an answer.
Exactly. Have fun.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I "choose" to go after an "unkillable NPC." I want to learn from that NPC and improve my character.
I never "choose" to be PK'd by an asshat. They kill, taunt, beat the chest, and run away (if lucky), no learning there except "GIT GUD!!!"
Better AI? I want "smarter" AI, not better. Computers are infallible as long as input is accurate. They don't "miss shots", fat finger keys, or make mistakes unless programmed to. But I would like to see NPCs use more varying abilities and stop getting stuck by the environment
But we are talking about multiplayer games. Why do you need smarter AI if there are players?
I was pulling for you, but they got you, too. You answerd every question and they didn't like the answer, so go back to the "I'm right" wall they throw up and plug the ears.
I do not see how "I like" or "I dislike" is an answer. I ask very clearly why he likes the PvE, but dislikes the PvP - the answer was - I dislike it, because I dislike it. The sun is hot because it is hot. You are wrong because you are wrong. This is pure stupidity, but not an answer.
If you don't understand what an aggressor has to do with conflict, I don't think you should ask questions like this. Or is this just forum PvP for you? If it is, you are losing. I'm not sure why anyone puts effort into replying to you.
There is not such a thing as aggressor in the games. Except if someone uses verbal insults. Also in the real life, there is not such a thing as non aggressive war. What right had US to kill hundreds of thousands of people in Vietnam or Iraq? Who is good in Syria - the jihadists or the dictator? The Second world war started with a contract for peace between Germany and USSR - both invaded Poland. In Hamburg the western allies intentionally killed hundreds of thousands of civil citizens. The wars are acts of greed. And there is not such a thing as good or right war. The history is written from the winners.
As for the games, the so called wars are just mechanism for multiplayer competition.
The only thing “fear” in a game ever accomplished was making you play the game in the safest manner possible. It’s a poor mechanic and that’s the reason it was abandoned.
Give me challenging overland content and keep the punishing time draining mechanics in the 90s where they belong.
You can play safe only if the rules of the gameplay allow it. Like PvE server. Or PK rules. Which makes the fear or the challenge kind of pointless. How you will play safe a game, where to take risks is the only way to progress?
The concept is pretty simple. There is home defense, some one invades your territory, you defend it and drive them off.
Wars of aggression are when your leaders (in game or in real life) tell you to attack someone else's home to either plunder, punish or take control.
I think most here in the States would agree Vietnam was a war of aggression, probably true of the middle east, but our leaders say we are "defending" the world, or ourselves from some great evil (communism, terrorism, imaginary chemical weapons, gasoline for cars) that must be stopped.
At my age you realize how stupid most of those are, especially when peoples sons end up dying for them.
WII was different, the US did not join until attacked by Japan, and it was Germany who declared war on the US, not the other way around.
But enough about history, irrelevant to our conversation.
You should by now understand the concept. I won't go out on roams looking for people PVEing by themselves unless they are within my teams territory. (Or a group we are officially at war with, for reasons I agree on)
On occasions the group comes across such players, I don't join in on the kill, I let others have the "honor." Of course if we come across a war band, I'm game unless the group ventures from no mans land and into another neutral teams territory.
I often volunteer to be "the healer" as it then leaves me out of having to really do any killing.
I am going to leave the politics out of it, this is gaming not history. Kylerans way is one of the PVP types I prefer. We have room for different sorts of PvP in the MMO genre but we can't expect everyone to want the same ones.
A lot of ganking/excessive PK etc is down to people finding misconceived reasons to do so. Ask yourself is this a real reason or am I just convincing myself I have one.
I recall this one horrible time I was in the Plane of Fear in Everquest and if anyone played Everquest you knew those days that if you are online for 24 hours and unable to recover your corpse you would lose everything I mean every damn single thing on it at that time.
I was crying in real life because I was not able to get my corpse so afraid that everything I had spent months collecting would be gone. I cannot express how scared I was. You may think that I was being silly but it was an honest to god scare at that time. To this day I cannot forget the feeling of utter relief when I looted my last corpse and made it out.
I have helped many,many people recover their bodies too in various planes and it was the knowledge of how it felt to imagine the prospect of losing their gear like I feared made me want to help them all the more. I think I have never enjoyed a game more than Everquest as far as relationships with other players go and a large portion of that depth of feeling comes from the hours and hours I have spent helping others.
Playing a game like Everquest with only PvE on the server I was on was definitely a wonderful MMORPG experience and one that required no PvP to enjoy. Anyone who tries to convince you that your're not playing a real multiplayer game just because you're playing against the AI has a very narrow idea of what makes games enjoyable or what makes working together against the AI such a great and enjoyable time.
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Man that game back then was my life. I didn't play any other game when this came out. I have all the expansions for it too. I played nothing but this game for over a year. I had to explore every area of this game world. Even those islands way out in the ocean. Water walking spell on an item helped. But i do remember that quest to find that witch. I swear i wish they would remaster Morrowind. They said it take years to do it because of all the text. The best time is being in the middle of an ash storm at night far from any towns. Just to see if you chicken out and reload a save.
Yeah I was like you, I played most every class, took part in every faction including a Vampire one.
Some of my best gaming memories are from the early years I played this.
I think they are right because updating the game in any way other than what was done by the community would essentially be remaking the game. And as Todd Howard said "we might as well just work on a new game".
are you aware of this?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Totally setting aside history discussions, I played EVE over 7 years and can completely discern between home defense or aggression.
I've just resubbed last weekend for 3 months on 3 accounts but haven't played yet as I'm seeking the "right" corp / alliance / coalition to join based on their views on this very subject.
EVEs landscape has greatly changed since I last played, many former enemies are now allies, so a bit challenging to decide.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I often volunteer to be "the healer" as it then leaves me out of having to really do any killing.
As someone who likes to heal themselves, you are a critical support role for your team. They can't do what they do without you.
You may not like to get your hands dirty, but you share in the responsibility for their actions.
That's why I like to lead guilds. I build around ideologies I am proud to support. I don't heal because I wouldn't be willing to do what the DPS do, but because if I play heals I know my group will never go without them.
I'm not sure why anyone puts effort into replying to you.
Why do you think I have that guy using one of my 5 forum ignore slots for many months now? He's like a broken record.
I also can't stand people who totally lack empathy for other players, refusing to acknowledge that behind every character there's a human being behind a keyboard. Because you CAN kill a newbie/lowbie doesn't mean you MUST kill that newbie/lowbie. People playing to make defenseless player's life miserable disgust me.
Now if you guys could stop quoting him all the time... because I still see the damned quotes :P
I just see the name and scroll right past. I don't think i've read any of his/her novels, i mean posts, mainly because they are too long and also because I very rarely engage in back-and-forth discussions with anyone.
@Kyleran his system of PvP is honorable and as I get older, that is usually my MO, however, i fully admit that I am an impulsive person, so if I smell blood in the water and I'm feeling like it, I will gank someone, but it happens very rarely. It is because I'm so risk averse when I play video games but funny in real life I am not risk averse at all.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Man that game back then was my life. I didn't play any other game when this came out. I have all the expansions for it too. I played nothing but this game for over a year. I had to explore every area of this game world. Even those islands way out in the ocean. Water walking spell on an item helped. But i do remember that quest to find that witch. I swear i wish they would remaster Morrowind. They said it take years to do it because of all the text. The best time is being in the middle of an ash storm at night far from any towns. Just to see if you chicken out and reload a save.
Yeah I was like you, I played most every class, took part in every faction including a Vampire one.
Some of my best gaming memories are from the early years I played this.
I think they are right because updating the game in any way other than what was done by the community would essentially be remaking the game. And as Todd Howard said "we might as well just work on a new game".
are you aware of this?
Wow thank you for posting these. You have my respect. When it comes to Morrowind nothing can compare.
I do not see how "I like" or "I dislike" is an answer.
Exactly. Have fun.
My fun is not the topic of that discussion.
Isn't it? You've stated quite clearly what you find fun and anyone who disagrees is challenged by you. Sounds exactly like this all about "your fun."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Haha thanks, I was just kidding, quote all you want, it's the forum's fault if it doesn't mask ignored people's quotes.
I'd rather discuss the part about there being real people behind the keyboard, it may influence some to change their behavior, who knows?
I mean, why are you "kind", Kyleran? Just because you think it's right? Because you see no point in killing with no challenge? You respect lower level players?
When I PvP, my reasons - in priority order - are as follows:
1) Fun 2) Roleplaying 3) Ranking
The first one I will expand upon. Fun, in my case, means a "good" fight. I want it to be relatively balanced, last a long time and be quite tense. For example, back when I still played LotRO I had a 1v1, me on my captain vs a defiler. The defiler was second highest ranked on my server and was a good player. The fight lasted nearly 10 minutes, lots of back and forth, each of us getting close to death before a heal came off cooldown.
That, to me, is fun. It was very tense, very tactical and I felt great when I eventually won. But, I've had similar fights where I lost and they were just as fun. Fights that are unbalanced just aren't fun to me. I need to have the capability to win a fight for it to be fun, as that means my actions will directly affect the outcome. When control is taken away (e.g. by being ganked, or out-geared) then my actions become inconsequential which is not fun.
On the roleplaying front, I think this touches on what Kyleran was saying about wars of aggression. Whilst I never talk in character or anything like that, I do fight for my faction and I do behave like my characters. So, fighting with my faction to steal a keep I would put under roleplaying (assuming my reason for taking the keep is for my faction, and not just because I wanted loot/rank). I would often lead a charge into the enemy, or stand my ground whilst teammates escaped. This didn't benefit me in any way, but in a roleplaying sense it fit and made the PvP more enjoyable.
On the rank front, this is my last motivation but if the game includes vertical progression then you need to rank up to stay competitive. If I'm unable to find fun pvp or RP approproate PvP then ranking is what's left. I generally try to stick to arenas if I'm just farming ranks as it's quicker access and balanced numbers, but I'd rather be out in the world.
Bring it back on topic, if fear of dying existed in the MMOs I played, I would rarely be able to find a fun fight because the fear would lead me to being much more cautious, only taking on people I had a reasonable chance of killing. The roleplaying reason would go straight out the door - why the hell would I lead a charge or stand my ground when it's almost guaranteed to make me lose something?
Fear of loss leads to selfishness (and is a path to the darkside....)
I mean, why are you "kind", Kyleran? Just because you think it's right? Because you see no point in killing with no challenge? You respect lower level players?
I'm not Kyleran, but I can say that being a dick is just not fun for me. Even in single player games I don't find developers ideas of "evil" fun at all. I've never played a Sith character in the single player Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic games.
@Kyleran his system of PvP is honorable and as I get older, that is usually my MO, however, i fully admit that I am an impulsive person, so if I smell blood in the water and I'm feeling like it, I will gank someone, but it happens very rarely. It is because I'm so risk averse when I play video games but funny in real life I am not risk averse at all.
That last part has always confused me about many PvP players. They just won't "engage" unless they have a clear, almost guaranteed win advantage, like 5 or more levels, the best gear set for them, or simply numbers like 5 or more against 1. Then when they "win" get all uppity and chest-beaty about it, thinking they are the best player ever.
I have PvP'd with guildmates. For fun, which seems lost on way too many PvP players. We had an ongoing PvP match going on in WoW one day, in that Goblin city (not Ratchet) in the south (Uldum?) with the Arena. We used skeleton potions, potions that made us bigger and smaller, and laughed the whole time through, win or lose
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have. But it's because I kept killing the same overgeared enemies and they kept coming back overgeared with no real consequences having been inflicted on them.
Did you ever wish that if that over geared player kicked your ass, that is should suck?
If not, then, this not you wishing dying sucked, this is you wishing to imposition other players by killing them.
Which is my point, Oh sure, everyone wants to win, and kick the person they defeated and scream "Stay Down Next Time" but no one wants to be on the receiving end of that.
So unless you want dying to suck for you.. you are not in any way wishing dying sucked.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
The reasons why people play MMORPG are completely subjective.
Don't like that? Too bad. Quit being selfish and telling people what they should like.
What I miss in MMO's is the challenge. There is none, at least not until you reach end game and do group content like raids. But the entire journey to get there is just a mindless grind. In most games you can literally just spam a few buttons and plow through enemies and quests and get to max level in a couple days or less. I appreciate certain mechanics that cater to more casual gamers who don't have a ton of time to invest in these games but making them easier is not something I want.
I remember a time when I played Lord of the Rings Online where getting to level 20 without dying and earning the "Undying" title actually meant something. Questing in the Barrow Downs and Old Forest and having to navigate through elite mobs and wandering rare elites there was a sense of danger and you could be in serious trouble real quick. They've changed all that now -- got rid of all the elites and made it easier for players to level without having to worry about dying. Other older MMO's have also taken this approach and it's sad. There's no more challenge and no sense of discovery.
I always set my personal progression goals and then perform gameplay which best supports them.
In MMOs that I enjoy my two main goals are to earn a bunch of in game money in order to buy or build whatever I want and to level my character.
Here's the key, those activites do not have to be challenging, interesting or what some call "fun" as that concept escapes me.
In fact if they are passive enough to watch Netflix, great, and probably a big reason why I dislike "action combat", far too busy for me.
What I want is something of near max efficiency and while I despise crafting I'll reluctantly do it if its worth my while.
I've yet to play a MMORPG yet where PVP was ever very efficient at achieving those goals, primarily in their designs but also because quite honestly, I really suck at it. (Wait until you are 60 before spouting off too much)
I will PVP for good cause, say to drive people out of my team's territory, especially if said invaders are messing with my progression, but I'll never join in on wars of aggression, and I always make that very clear to groups I join.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I gave them to you.
I "choose" to go after an "unkillable NPC." I want to learn from that NPC and improve my character.
I never "choose" to be PK'd by an asshat. They kill, taunt, beat the chest, and run away (if lucky), no learning there except "GIT GUD!!!"
Better AI? I want "smarter" AI, not better. Computers are infallible as long as input is accurate. They don't "miss shots", fat finger keys, or make mistakes unless programmed to. But I would like to see NPCs use more varying abilities and stop getting stuck by the environment
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Give me challenging overland content and keep the punishing time draining mechanics in the 90s where they belong.
Your little fit here about wanting PvP in all MMORPGs games isn't going to change things. Your rationale the AI cannot cause fear is also mistaken. I felt real fear in Everquest while searching for my corpse. Whether you wish to believe that or mock that will not change my mind and as a PvE player I will continue to go to forums of games that have PvP and advocate for PvP by choice. I will also only choose to support games that give me choice. My money my decision.
There is also one other thing I love to do when forced PvP games lose their population I make sure to go and parrot continuously how they should have allowed choice. I am obnoxious that way.
Wars of aggression are when your leaders (in game or in real life) tell you to attack someone else's home to either plunder, punish or take control.
I think most here in the States would agree Vietnam was a war of aggression, probably true of the middle east, but our leaders say we are "defending" the world, or ourselves from some great evil (communism, terrorism, imaginary chemical weapons, gasoline for cars) that must be stopped.
At my age you realize how stupid most of those are, especially when peoples sons end up dying for them.
WII was different, the US did not join until attacked by Japan, and it was Germany who declared war on the US, not the other way around.
But enough about history, irrelevant to our conversation.
You should by now understand the concept. I won't go out on roams looking for people PVEing by themselves unless they are within my teams territory. (Or a group we are officially at war with, for reasons I agree on)
On occasions the group comes across such players, I don't join in on the kill, I let others have the "honor." Of course if we come across a war band, I'm game unless the group ventures from no mans land and into another neutral teams territory.
I often volunteer to be "the healer" as it then leaves me out of having to really do any killing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
A lot of ganking/excessive PK etc is down to people finding misconceived reasons to do so. Ask yourself is this a real reason or am I just convincing myself I have one.
I was crying in real life because I was not able to get my corpse so afraid that everything I had spent months collecting would be gone. I cannot express how scared I was. You may think that I was being silly but it was an honest to god scare at that time. To this day I cannot forget the feeling of utter relief when I looted my last corpse and made it out.
I have helped many,many people recover their bodies too in various planes and it was the knowledge of how it felt to imagine the prospect of losing their gear like I feared made me want to help them all the more. I think I have never enjoyed a game more than Everquest as far as relationships with other players go and a large portion of that depth of feeling comes from the hours and hours I have spent helping others.
Playing a game like Everquest with only PvE on the server I was on was definitely a wonderful MMORPG experience and one that required no PvP to enjoy. Anyone who tries to convince you that your're not playing a real multiplayer game just because you're playing against the AI has a very narrow idea of what makes games enjoyable or what makes working together against the AI such a great and enjoyable time.
Some of my best gaming memories are from the early years I played this.
I think they are right because updating the game in any way other than what was done by the community would essentially be remaking the game. And as Todd Howard said "we might as well just work on a new game".
are you aware of this?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Totally setting aside history discussions, I played EVE over 7 years and can completely discern between home defense or aggression.
I've just resubbed last weekend for 3 months on 3 accounts but haven't played yet as I'm seeking the "right" corp / alliance / coalition to join based on their views on this very subject.
EVEs landscape has greatly changed since I last played, many former enemies are now allies, so a bit challenging to decide.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You may not like to get your hands dirty, but you share in the responsibility for their actions.
That's why I like to lead guilds. I build around ideologies I am proud to support. I don't heal because I wouldn't be willing to do what the DPS do, but because if I play heals I know my group will never go without them.
I just see the name and scroll right past. I don't think i've read any of his/her novels, i mean posts, mainly because they are too long and also because I very rarely engage in back-and-forth discussions with anyone.
@Kyleran his system of PvP is honorable and as I get older, that is usually my MO, however, i fully admit that I am an impulsive person, so if I smell blood in the water and I'm feeling like it, I will gank someone, but it happens very rarely. It is because I'm so risk averse when I play video games but funny in real life I am not risk averse at all.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
1) Fun
2) Roleplaying
3) Ranking
The first one I will expand upon. Fun, in my case, means a "good" fight. I want it to be relatively balanced, last a long time and be quite tense. For example, back when I still played LotRO I had a 1v1, me on my captain vs a defiler. The defiler was second highest ranked on my server and was a good player. The fight lasted nearly 10 minutes, lots of back and forth, each of us getting close to death before a heal came off cooldown.
That, to me, is fun. It was very tense, very tactical and I felt great when I eventually won. But, I've had similar fights where I lost and they were just as fun. Fights that are unbalanced just aren't fun to me. I need to have the capability to win a fight for it to be fun, as that means my actions will directly affect the outcome. When control is taken away (e.g. by being ganked, or out-geared) then my actions become inconsequential which is not fun.
On the roleplaying front, I think this touches on what Kyleran was saying about wars of aggression. Whilst I never talk in character or anything like that, I do fight for my faction and I do behave like my characters. So, fighting with my faction to steal a keep I would put under roleplaying (assuming my reason for taking the keep is for my faction, and not just because I wanted loot/rank). I would often lead a charge into the enemy, or stand my ground whilst teammates escaped. This didn't benefit me in any way, but in a roleplaying sense it fit and made the PvP more enjoyable.
On the rank front, this is my last motivation but if the game includes vertical progression then you need to rank up to stay competitive. If I'm unable to find fun pvp or RP approproate PvP then ranking is what's left. I generally try to stick to arenas if I'm just farming ranks as it's quicker access and balanced numbers, but I'd rather be out in the world.
Bring it back on topic, if fear of dying existed in the MMOs I played, I would rarely be able to find a fun fight because the fear would lead me to being much more cautious, only taking on people I had a reasonable chance of killing. The roleplaying reason would go straight out the door - why the hell would I lead a charge or stand my ground when it's almost guaranteed to make me lose something?
Fear of loss leads to selfishness (and is a path to the darkside....)
That last part has always confused me about many PvP players. They just won't "engage" unless they have a clear, almost guaranteed win advantage, like 5 or more levels, the best gear set for them, or simply numbers like 5 or more against 1. Then when they "win" get all uppity and chest-beaty about it, thinking they are the best player ever.
I have PvP'd with guildmates. For fun, which seems lost on way too many PvP players. We had an ongoing PvP match going on in WoW one day, in that Goblin city (not Ratchet) in the south (Uldum?) with the Arena. We used skeleton potions, potions that made us bigger and smaller, and laughed the whole time through, win or lose
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If not, then, this not you wishing dying sucked, this is you wishing to imposition other players by killing them.
Which is my point, Oh sure, everyone wants to win, and kick the person they defeated and scream "Stay Down Next Time" but no one wants to be on the receiving end of that.
So unless you want dying to suck for you.. you are not in any way wishing dying sucked.