It would be very unethical for someone to use crowdfunding just to line their own pockets. >>>
What do you suggest ?
Lead 400+ developers at gunpoint behind the barn and "solve the problem there and then" because they "unethically" get a salary for their work in a crowdfunding project ?
I would be interested in your opinion on how much it costs to develop such a game. And if AT THE MOMENT Star Citizen generates PROFIT (as in income minus expenses can be profit if the result is positive).
So why isn't the game closer to release if there are 400+ devs working on it? Heck even Project Gorgon is closer and I think it has one guy and his wife as the only devs.
Because many of them are working on solving challenging technical problems (e.g. network challenges, object container streaming, generate whole procedurally generated planets etc.)
If they're selling more ships they must need more money, Apparently 185 million isn't enough.
Well I guess they could stop selling stuff, that would make total sense right? Just give the game free to everyone else you think? that work for you?
What ?, I said they obviously need more money, I didn't say anything about letting people who didn't donate play for free.
Why is it obvious? I guess Blizzard should have stopped asking for money when they recovered the development costs for WoW? Apparently though 10 billion wasn't enough.
WOW isn't a crowdfunded game, Crowdfunding isn't supposed to be used to make a profit, It's to raise enough money for what they want to use it for.
Then when the product releases that is when the company makes a profit, It would be very unethical for someone to use crowdfunding just to line their own pockets.
What if it isn't to line own pockets and is for reinvestment. expansion, running costs and further development to secure the long term goals also promised?
It would be very unethical for someone to use crowdfunding just to line their own pockets. >>>
What do you suggest ?
Lead 400+ developers at gunpoint behind the barn and "solve the problem there and then" because they "unethically" get a salary for their work in a crowdfunding project ?
I would be interested in your opinion on how much it costs to develop such a game. And if AT THE MOMENT Star Citizen generates PROFIT (as in income minus expenses can be profit if the result is positive).
Have fun
It's obvious that wages would be come under the costs of what funds would be needed to raise via crowdfunding, You obviously don't know what the saying means.
I never even said SC was making a profit from crowdfunding, I said it would be unethical to use crowdfunding to make a profit.
It would be very unethical for someone to use crowdfunding just to line their own pockets. >>>
What do you suggest ?
Lead 400+ developers at gunpoint behind the barn and "solve the problem there and then" because they "unethically" get a salary for their work in a crowdfunding project ?
I would be interested in your opinion on how much it costs to develop such a game. And if AT THE MOMENT Star Citizen generates PROFIT (as in income minus expenses can be profit if the result is positive).
Have fun
I said it would be unethical to use crowdfunding to make a profit.
What if I stated that my project was to see how much profit I could make through crowdfunding while providing nothing in return?
In regards to profit... unless you are a Tibetan Monk, you don't do anything for free. People don't take jobs that pay less than what it costs them to live... they take jobs that pay more... some jobs pay insanely more, some only slightly more. But you can't live if you don't make enough money.
They're making more than they need, otherwise they wouldn't exist.
I got to go do more worthwhile things but I will leave the short version of this instead.
Free market capitalism Supply and demand
You are welcome.
This is incredibly facile. This same mentality resulted in Enron and innumerable other scandals since the advent of mercantilism.
Welcome to the 21st century.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Well for me it is getting very discerning that we aren't getting further along and closer to a real beta. Lot keep saying all the money is going toward development. Okay I get that, electricity, rent, paychecks, but then we have a right to ask okay so how much is everyone being paid. Just seems the only thing backers are allowed to do is stay quiet and believe Chris Roberts knows what he is doing.
If we do ask why so long in alpha, normally we are attacked and told we don't understand development. Well when I agreed and gave my money I was under the assumption we would already be playing the full game. Plus if we weren't playing the game Chris said he would release the financials by now.
Sorry just sick of playing an alpha. Finish it once and for all please.
“The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
―
George Carlin
Well for me it is getting very discerning that we aren't getting further along and closer to a real beta. Lot keep saying all the money is going toward development. Okay I get that, electricity, rent, paychecks, but then we have a right to ask okay so how much is everyone being paid. Just seems the only thing backers are allowed to do is stay quiet and believe Chris Roberts knows what he is doing.
If we do ask why so long in alpha, normally we are attacked and told we don't understand development. Well when I agreed and gave my money I was under the assumption we would already be playing the full game. Plus if we weren't playing the game Chris said he would release the financials by now.
Sorry just sick of playing an alpha. Finish it once and for all please.
Well for me it is getting very discerning that we aren't getting further along and closer to a real beta. Lot keep saying all the money is going toward development. Okay I get that, electricity, rent, paychecks, but then we have a right to ask okay so how much is everyone being paid. Just seems the only thing backers are allowed to do is stay quiet and believe Chris Roberts knows what he is doing.
If we do ask why so long in alpha, normally we are attacked and told we don't understand development. Well when I agreed and gave my money I was under the assumption we would already be playing the full game. Plus if we weren't playing the game Chris said he would release the financials by now.
Sorry just sick of playing an alpha. Finish it once and for all please.
So ... to sum it up ...
GIMME THE BEST GAME EVAR ...
AND DONT YOU DARE TO NOT BE FINISHED YESTERDAY !
Have fun
Actually it means "Hey Chris, release the darn game, PLEASE, or give us what you promised, nothing more, nothing less.
Also being involved in gaming for years and testing hundreds of games, I have never seen people attack others who are actually concerned about getting what was promised. It's like I said, be attacked or shut the heck up.
>>> There just no logical reason Chris Roberts isn't allowing us to see the books opened. >>>
The same logical reason(s) you do not see the books of the OTHER 99.99 % of private companies.
Have fun
You see, I was with you until this...
One of the promises made in the initial crowd funding campaign specifically stated that if they did not reach their planned launch within a buffer of something like 18 months if i'm not mistaken (which has now been surpassed by multiple years at this point), they would open the books and show all backers where all of the money has been spent.
Your posts have seemed very reasonable up to this point. Why would you then go an say something completely disingenuous like this? This makes your motives seem a little twisted now, seeing as you are willing to leave truth by the wayside in order to make a point in favor of what CIG is (or isn't) doing. Why pretend that backers (esp early on) are not absolutely entitled to see the books, and that a comparison to other private companies is in some way valid?
CIG promised to show their books; its not something people are all of a sudden unrealistically expecting due to a negative double standard (as your post implies)
>>> There just no logical reason Chris Roberts isn't allowing us to see the books opened. >>>
The same logical reason(s) you do not see the books of the OTHER 99.99 % of private companies.
Have fun
You see, I was with you until this...
One of the promises made in the initial crowd funding campaign specifically stated that if they did not reach their planned launch within a buffer of something like 18 months if i'm not mistaken (which has now been surpassed by multiple years at this point), they would open the books and show all backers where all of the money has been spent.
CIG promised to show their books; its not something people are all of a sudden unrealistically expecting due to a negative double standard (as your post implies)
This is a complete misconception.
The only case CIG would have to showcase it's books to backers would be if development stopped completely altogether, which hasn't even remotely began close to happen.
In fact with each year the company grows and the updates are more and merrier.
Save your crying folks, a game is being developed and online crying wont make it come out faster lol
>>> There just no logical reason Chris Roberts isn't allowing us to see the books opened. >>>
The same logical reason(s) you do not see the books of the OTHER 99.99 % of private companies.
Have fun
You see, I was with you until this...
One of the promises made in the initial crowd funding campaign specifically stated that if they did not reach their planned launch within a buffer of something like 18 months if i'm not mistaken (which has now been surpassed by multiple years at this point), they would open the books and show all backers where all of the money has been spent.
CIG promised to show their books; its not something people are all of a sudden unrealistically expecting due to a negative double standard (as your post implies)
This is a complete misconception.
The only case CIG would have to showcase it's books to backers would be if development stopped completely altogether, which hasn't even remotely began close to happen.
In fact with each year the company grows and the updates are more and merrier.
Save your crying folks, a game is being developed and online crying wont make it come out faster lol
First of all, that was literally my first post ever about star citizen (you can check my history), so i'm not sure where you get off accusing me of crying.
Secondly, you are completely wrong though.
The initial pledge agreement literally stated that if the game was not released within 18 (or 12, but something close to that) months of the planned launch date, they would provide refunds hastle free, and open up all financial information to all backers, regardless if it was still in development or not.
This isn't a "the game is a scam" or "the game is not being made" etc etc..
I am not saying they should or shouldn't. but when a backer makes a comment about them not showing the number by now, don't act like they are being "unrealistic" or holding some type of entitled "out of nowhere of double standard", as Erillion did.
One of the promises made in the initial crowd funding campaign specifically stated that if they did not reach their planned launch within a buffer of something like 18 months if i'm not mistaken (which has now been surpassed by multiple years at this point), they would open the books and show all backers where all of the money has been spent.
Your posts have seemed very reasonable up to this point. Why would you then go an say something completely disingenuous like this? This makes your motives seem a little twisted now, seeing as you are willing to leave truth by the wayside in order to make a point in favor of what CIG is (or isn't) doing. Why pretend that backers (esp early on) are not absolutely entitled to see the books, and that a comparison to other private companies is in some way valid?
CIG promised to show their books; its not something people are all of a sudden unrealistically expecting due to a negative double standard (as your post implies)
Sorry @MMOManiacs but he isn't being disingenuous, you are simply misinformed, what I'd believe is not your fault as there are all sorts of twisting and misinformation to make that point on the ToS mean what you mentioned, allow me to link you the original version of the tos where that term exists.
(IV, A), the company promised to open books and STILL does in the failure of delivery, your misconception here is that it is not a point tied to the timeframe that existed on those versions, that timeline is on another bullet point and is specific to their liability to return you your pledge past that timeframe if you so intended.
Yeah 2 camps, people who make fun of the people who think this is still coming out after all these years, and the people who think this is still coming out after all these years. Pretty sure CR just fleeced more people for hundreds of dollars for the amazing chance of having dinner with him...its on par with richard garriott selling his own blood to finance his own shitshow, shroud of avatars.
Yeah 2 camps, people who make fun of the people who think this is still coming out after all these years, and the people who think this is still coming out after all these years. Pretty sure CR just fleeced more people for hundreds of dollars for the amazing chance of having dinner with him...its on par with richard garriott selling his own blood to finance his own shitshow, shroud of avatars.
Yup, that's why they are spending more money on the game dev than what they crowdfund yearly. CR must be the worse scammer in history, you're supposed to pocket the money not spend more than what you fund on the product development... Silly CR...
Yeah 2 camps, people who make fun of the people who think this is still coming out after all these years, and the people who think this is still coming out after all these years. Pretty sure CR just fleeced more people for hundreds of dollars for the amazing chance of having dinner with him...its on par with richard garriott selling his own blood to finance his own shitshow, shroud of avatars.
Yup, that's why they are spending more money on the game dev than what they crowdfund yearly. CR must be the worse scammer in history, you're supposed to pocket the money not spend more than what you fund on the product development... Silly CR...
Never gets old hehe
Well, as mentioned he doesn't open the books so perhaps he is pocketing some portion of the money, how would anyone know either way?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, as mentioned he doesn't open the books so perhaps he is pocketing some portion of the money, how would anyone know either way?
It's his money (yes a shocker CIG is not a bank/investment firm to have any obligations aside of product delivery because while it might come as a shocker to several posters here, SC is not a scam) and irrelevant to my point.
Point is, years ago (and you were around back then) many standard calculations were done based on CIG's studios and employees to get overall numbers of how much do that company costs to maintain.
And back then it was already widely agreed that the company cost MORE than what they were funding yearly, even if their upkeep was under the industry standards.
So years after, and literally 200 more employees and even a new studio opened, with around the same levels of funding as back then, it gets PRETTY OBVIOUS (the UK studio financials show a slice of that huge cost) that they aren't running at any "profit" from the crowdfunding campaign, even if they wanted to.
Sure that doesn't stop the trolls to come up with BS uninformed hyperbole as that, the logic... A development team that costs them more than what they crowdfund, the argument is: "they are fleecing people for a game that will never release.", and want to be taken seriously? Oh whelp!
Well, as mentioned he doesn't open the books so perhaps he is pocketing some portion of the money, how would anyone know either way?
It's his money (yes a shocker CIG is not a bank/investment firm to have any obligations aside of product delivery because while it might come as a shocker to several posters here, SC is not a scam) and irrelevant to my point.
Point is, years ago many standard calculations were done based on CIG's studios and employees to get overall numbers of how much do that company costs to maintain.
And back then it was already widely agreed that the company cost MORE than what they were funding yearly, even if their upkeep was under the industry standards.
So years after, and literally 200 more employees and even a new studio opened, with around the same levels of funding as back then, it gets PRETTY OBVIOUS (the UK studio financials show a slice of that huge cost) that they aren't running at any "profit" from the crowdfunding campaign, even if they wanted to.
Sure that doesn't stop the trolls to come up with BS uninformed hyperbole as that, the logic... A development team that costs them more than what they crowdfund, the argument is: "they are fleecing people for a game that will never release.", and want to be taken seriously? Oh whelp!
Yet for all of your blather, you really don’t know. Nor do I or anyone here......well except for maybe @Erillion, he seems to know everything.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, as mentioned he doesn't open the books so perhaps he is pocketing some portion of the money, how would anyone know either way?
It's his money (yes a shocker CIG is not a bank/investment firm to have any obligations aside of product delivery because while it might come as a shocker to several posters here, SC is not a scam) and irrelevant to my point.
Point is, years ago many standard calculations were done based on CIG's studios and employees to get overall numbers of how much do that company costs to maintain.
And back then it was already widely agreed that the company cost MORE than what they were funding yearly, even if their upkeep was under the industry standards.
So years after, and literally 200 more employees and even a new studio opened, with around the same levels of funding as back then, it gets PRETTY OBVIOUS (the UK studio financials show a slice of that huge cost) that they aren't running at any "profit" from the crowdfunding campaign, even if they wanted to.
Sure that doesn't stop the trolls to come up with BS uninformed hyperbole as that, the logic... A development team that costs them more than what they crowdfund, the argument is: "they are fleecing people for a game that will never release.", and want to be taken seriously? Oh whelp!
Yep no way possible CR is paying himself a huge salary to match his over inflated ego and all the family employed as well aren’t taking a huge salary as well.
Yet for all of your blather, you really don’t know. Nor do I or anyone here......well except 2 he seems to know everything.
It's not, it's just logical thinking, it was widely accepted then, it is nothing but obvious now.
You are free to believe in the possibility that SC is developed in a korean sweatshop so they can keep the costs of running +400 employees in 5 world-wide studios, is somehow equal or lesser than their normal funding levels of ~35 million a year.
And as a hint: The UK office financials are public, and their upkeep costs speak by themselves, it's not a mystery that requires some Sherlock Holmes to figure that out.
Yep no way possible CR is paying himself a huge salary to match his over inflated ego and all the family employed as well aren’t taking a huge salary as well.
It's irrelevant to my point, because the development team itself on the default numbers they have, even UNDER industry averages, are already more than what they fund yearly, hence my point against some usual ridiculous arguments I've noticed here.
Comments
>>>
What do you suggest ?
Lead 400+ developers at gunpoint behind the barn and "solve the problem there and then" because they "unethically" get a salary for their work in a crowdfunding project ?
I would be interested in your opinion on how much it costs to develop such a game. And if AT THE MOMENT Star Citizen generates PROFIT (as in income minus expenses can be profit if the result is positive).
Have fun
Have fun
I never even said SC was making a profit from crowdfunding, I said it would be unethical to use crowdfunding to make a profit.
Honestly, money well spent.
In regards to profit... unless you are a Tibetan Monk, you don't do anything for free. People don't take jobs that pay less than what it costs them to live... they take jobs that pay more... some jobs pay insanely more, some only slightly more. But you can't live if you don't make enough money.
They're making more than they need, otherwise they wouldn't exist.
Free market capitalism
Supply and demand
You are welcome.
Welcome to the 21st century.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
If we do ask why so long in alpha, normally we are attacked and told we don't understand development. Well when I agreed and gave my money I was under the assumption we would already be playing the full game. Plus if we weren't playing the game Chris said he would release the financials by now.
Sorry just sick of playing an alpha. Finish it once and for all please.
― George Carlin
GIMME THE BEST GAME EVAR ...
AND DONT YOU DARE TO NOT BE FINISHED YESTERDAY !
Have fun
Also being involved in gaming for years and testing hundreds of games, I have never seen people attack others who are actually concerned about getting what was promised. It's like I said, be attacked or shut the heck up.
Thank you @Erillion, you made my point.
― George Carlin
One of the promises made in the initial crowd funding campaign specifically stated that if they did not reach their planned launch within a buffer of something like 18 months if i'm not mistaken (which has now been surpassed by multiple years at this point), they would open the books and show all backers where all of the money has been spent.
Your posts have seemed very reasonable up to this point. Why would you then go an say something completely disingenuous like this? This makes your motives seem a little twisted now, seeing as you are willing to leave truth by the wayside in order to make a point in favor of what CIG is (or isn't) doing. Why pretend that backers (esp early on) are not absolutely entitled to see the books, and that a comparison to other private companies is in some way valid?
CIG promised to show their books; its not something people are all of a sudden unrealistically expecting due to a negative double standard (as your post implies)
The only case CIG would have to showcase it's books to backers would be if development stopped completely altogether, which hasn't even remotely began close to happen.
In fact with each year the company grows and the updates are more and merrier.
Save your crying folks, a game is being developed and online crying wont make it come out faster lol
Secondly, you are completely wrong though.
The initial pledge agreement literally stated that if the game was not released within 18 (or 12, but something close to that) months of the planned launch date, they would provide refunds hastle free, and open up all financial information to all backers, regardless if it was still in development or not.
This isn't a "the game is a scam" or "the game is not being made" etc etc..
I am not saying they should or shouldn't. but when a backer makes a comment about them not showing the number by now, don't act like they are being "unrealistic" or holding some type of entitled "out of nowhere of double standard", as Erillion did.
(IV, A), the company promised to open books and STILL does in the failure of delivery, your misconception here is that it is not a point tied to the timeframe that existed on those versions, that timeline is on another bullet point and is specific to their liability to return you your pledge past that timeframe if you so intended.
Never gets old hehe
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pragmaticpricing.com/2010/04/21/price-segmentation-introduction-and-id-for-discount/&ved=2ahUKEwjiypjS0fLaAhXSvVMKHaOfDYkQFjABegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1znxtnA66A59cjERDPwJRW
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Point is, years ago (and you were around back then) many standard calculations were done based on CIG's studios and employees to get overall numbers of how much do that company costs to maintain.
And back then it was already widely agreed that the company cost MORE than what they were funding yearly, even if their upkeep was under the industry standards.
So years after, and literally 200 more employees and even a new studio opened, with around the same levels of funding as back then, it gets PRETTY OBVIOUS (the UK studio financials show a slice of that huge cost) that they aren't running at any "profit" from the crowdfunding campaign, even if they wanted to.
Sure that doesn't stop the trolls to come up with BS uninformed hyperbole as that, the logic... A development team that costs them more than what they crowdfund, the argument is: "they are fleecing people for a game that will never release.", and want to be taken seriously? Oh whelp!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are free to believe in the possibility that SC is developed in a korean sweatshop so they can keep the costs of running +400 employees in 5 world-wide studios, is somehow equal or lesser than their normal funding levels of ~35 million a year.
And as a hint: The UK office financials are public, and their upkeep costs speak by themselves, it's not a mystery that requires some Sherlock Holmes to figure that out.
It's irrelevant to my point, because the development team itself on the default numbers they have, even UNDER industry averages, are already more than what they fund yearly, hence my point against some usual ridiculous arguments I've noticed here.