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Pre-Alpha Gameplay and Impressions - TheHiveLeader - Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Videos - MMORPG.co

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Comments

  • BrizlynBrizlyn Member UncommonPosts: 79
    edited May 2018
    Mendel said:
    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?



    Time crunch.  The biggest reason is they only had about a 1 hour slot to play, and they wanted to actually try and beat the mini boss within that 1 hour.  I thought it was pretty obvious.

    /fixed
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 698
    Mendel said:
    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?




    Not sure there is a correlation between what is fun to watch and what is fun to play.
    Golf is dull AF to watch but it is fun to play.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,268
    Mendel said:
    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?




    This comes across as being very ignorant and a backhanded stab, especially for someone who claims to want the game to succeed, yet makes posts like this every chance they get.....

    On the question of it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming it's quite simple. I'll make the analogy to baseball. Many feel watching baseball on TV is akin to watching paint dry, but to actually play the game it's a lot of fun. Everquest was very much like this. Watching someone stream it is much less fun than actually playing it and being in the thick of things. There are many instances of this type of situation. Also, when they have an hour or less, you really want them spending the rest of the stream doing a corpse run?? I can just hear the whining and complaining after that video. It's not that they are afraid to show it, they are just trying to utilize the limited time they have, to show as much as they can. They have been reaching out to different streamers recently as well, so they are trying to introduce that streamers audience to the core gameplay, corpse runs are just one aspect of it. It's all about getting the word out to people.

    If you were marketing a product on TV, would you spend your entire 30 second segment talking about one small aspect of your product, or would you try and touch on as many aspects as you could so that one of those might make a connection with them? It's really not rocket science, there is no shady reason they aren't showing corpse runs. If they were being shady, they wouldn't mention the fact they are having them at all.
    They have had videos longer than this one, so there's no limiting duration in play.  They can make the video as long as they desire.  There is no one hour limit except for artificial constraints.  The point is, someone made the decision to package this video into a one hour block.  Corpse runs get a lot more discussion, both pro and con.  That amount of discussion seems to indicate an interest in the subject.

    By leaving the corpse run out, and supplementing the needs of the video by using GM tools to resume the dungeon crawl after a death (or even a full wipe), the developers are indirectly admitting that a recovery run isn't fun, or even worth watching.  So, how is Pantheon attempting to fix what many (myself included) are one of the problems of old-school gaming, specifically keeping 5 people waiting while the cleric does a corpse recovery?

    Fixing problems with the older models is specifically one of the points that VR is using/has used to try to sell the product.  Instead of showing alternate ways to impose a death penalty they are willing to fast forward past those portions to get back to more 'interesting' parts of the game.

    The purpose for using different streamers to present their video is to introduce the game to new players, specifically, those that missed the EQ1/Vanguard era.  That's the target audience, not forum regulars.  Omitting the arduous nature of an old-school corpse recovery from the video seems like it is more tailoring the video to appeal to a newer audience rather than showing the product as intended for customers to play it.  Players who experienced that first hand will understand the hazards of a corpse run, but those unfamiliar with 'old school' may be building false expectations about the game.  At some point, you have to question the effectiveness of the marketing campaign and the message it is sending.

    In any case, Pantheon isn't trying to improve and fix the issues that earlier generations of MMORPGs faced.  Or if they are working on new ways to enhance the experience, they're using tools that won't be available to the public to bypass some of those issues.

    ---------
    For the record, playing baseball may have been fun in my youth but I prefer watching these days.  Neither playing nor watching addresses the fundamental issues with baseball, specifically games lasting too long.




    jimmywolf

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Strizzy12Strizzy12 Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Color me intrigued.. After watching this you've convinced me to give this game a try. Great video Hive!
  • eddieg50eddieg50 Member UncommonPosts: 1,807
    Evercrack, I will withhold judgement till I see some more footage and reviews. As always good review by Hive leader
  • mcd6993mcd6993 Member UncommonPosts: 5
    I started EQ right after Kunark and played through pop. This game has me stoked. I'm creeping up on 50 , kids are moved out , I have some time to waste. Bring it on!
    Binny45
  • PsykogunnerPsykogunner Member UncommonPosts: 4

    Mendel said:

    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?







    Why are people who work for or agree with Brad cronys? And this is my opinion but not everything needs to be a spectator sport to be good, this need for everything to be a hyper competitive environment is honestly annoying
  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,269
    I do think they need to work on a death penalty more. I want punishment,but I want it innovated.
  • GrymmoireGrymmoire Member UncommonPosts: 53
    Now I played EQ1;2;and Vanguard. many aspects of that game were indeed fun. I felt trains were both fun and added excitement. Learning the various languages fun. The marketplaces; kiting; sow etc.

    However, I see problems with trying to recreate a nostalgic game in that memory is almost always rosier than reality. Remember, at the time, EQ was almost the only MMO on the scene and presented a whole new introduction to fantasy gaming. Players were in high school or college and had a dearth of time to invest playing. Ergo, corpse runs and idle time regaining resources was more insignificant. Tempus fugit; and indeed it has. Many of us now have careers, families and other social obligations that preclude spending so many hours in an MMO. Especially if it has mechanisms that include so required down time, specific roles and grouping to simply play.

    Does anyone recall just how many times, especially in off-hours, your group would idle waiting for that one specific role to answer zone chat, only to have the group get going when someone had to log off due to family, early work or cripes even "My dad says I have to go to bed now, sorry, poof!" *Facepalm* And the search for a replacement began anew.

    Remember dying underwater or near those Vampires who dragged you down thier cave? How long did it take to find a willing Necro to retrieve your body especially at say 2-3AM on a week night?

    Or recall when later stages of EQ were added and one wanted to create a new avatar, even the beginning areas were a nightmare since the population by that time had progressed forward and there were few guildies; friends or even other new players about to handle the mob groups? (Can always be remedied by placing quest; rewards or higher levels in those areas, but few devs do that. And No thanks to Npc mercenaries!)

    I guess there will always be new players entering the market that have enormous time to play and fans of nostalgia will want to try to recapture the feeling of old, however, the MMO market is now so saturated and competitive that a game just has to have something more than better graphics than it did 20+ years ago. It needs revised action play less idle time and imo, cater more to the gamer that has restricted gaming hours.

  • jpedrote52jpedrote52 Member UncommonPosts: 112
















    Areteo said:




    The decision not to have bards ended my interest in this game.












    actually in a recent interview, they pretty much confirmed bards will be in by launch, unless something goes terribly wrong with the game development they'll be a playable class when the game launches.









    I don't remember what they said exactly but I don't think they confirmed that. Iirc it was more like "bards are in a good place now for testing and that makes a launch release a good bet"






    "I feel confident that from my perspective we'll be able to have bard in by launch"








    oh ok. Not trying to be a dick but tbh thats still not really confirming it
    Well, when you're developing a game you normally don't make these kind of public statements unless you're 99.99% sure it's going to happen, specially when talking about such a delicate and important subject for so many players, the implementation of another class, so it's pretty much confirmed Bards will be in at launch.
  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 447
    Nice!

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited May 2018

    Mendel said:

    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?







    They wanted to demo group play in a dungeon in a finite window of time. It has been an industry standard to selectively demonstrate content in a game still under heavy development where design has yet to be fully implemented or determined.

    Is this a highly complicated concept to you to understand? When the NDA is dropped or loosened and streaming of full spectrum game play is allowed there will be plenty of variety and you can get your full "bitch on" then.

    You stay sassy!

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,837
















    Areteo said:




    The decision not to have bards ended my interest in this game.












    actually in a recent interview, they pretty much confirmed bards will be in by launch, unless something goes terribly wrong with the game development they'll be a playable class when the game launches.









    I don't remember what they said exactly but I don't think they confirmed that. Iirc it was more like "bards are in a good place now for testing and that makes a launch release a good bet"






    "I feel confident that from my perspective we'll be able to have bard in by launch"








    oh ok. Not trying to be a dick but tbh thats still not really confirming it
    Well, when you're developing a game you normally don't make these kind of public statements unless you're 99.99% sure it's going to happen, specially when talking about such a delicate and important subject for so many players, the implementation of another class, so it's pretty much confirmed Bards will be in at launch.
    Unless you're developing No Man's Sky.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,837
    Corps runs are fun the first few times you do them after that they get to be a pain, which is why most games have dropped them.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,015
    Corps runs are fun the first few times you do them after that they get to be a pain, which is why most games have dropped them.
    I think that's the point. One wants to avoid them so you do what it takes to succeed.

    They are a death penalty.



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2018
    How much I'm annoyed at the death penalty is entirely dependent upon how often I will have to face it and how much control I can maintain over avoiding it.

    In vanilla DAoC, going on a RNG shit luck run against a yellow could mean you need to run or die.  If that's the case with Pantheon, I'm going to have a hard time with it.  Even then, I could usually outrun a mob in DAoc if I wasn't very low health.  If I have the option of fleeing or sticking it out to risk my neck for the reward, then I won't mind so much when I make the conscious choice to risk it for the biscuit.

    In short, if I feel I can be aggroed relentlessly or, upon entering a fight, there is no escape other than the death of myself or the opponent...  That penalty isn't gonna work for me.

    If I have an adequate modicum of control over the situation, I can accept it willingly.

    image
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    Sovrath said:
    Corps runs are fun the first few times you do them after that they get to be a pain, which is why most games have dropped them.
    I think that's the point. One wants to avoid them so you do what it takes to succeed.

    They are a death penalty.
    Exactly. The power is in the hands of the players to not die. Success is sweeter. Rewards are rewardier.

    If players cannot understand this, there are hundreds of other games, slots machines and Pez dispensers to satisfy their need for instant gratification.
    drivendawnKyleran

    You stay sassy!

  • ZorlofeZorlofe Member UncommonPosts: 213
    This is what I've been asking for, for years now. I have no problems with playing a game that is basically EQ with better graphics. I loved the original EQ but nothing since has ever done it for me. Hopefully they deliver but now I'm stuck between this and AoC as I backed both, lol. I just wish we had one of them to play by now...
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,061


    Corpse runs? Sitting and doing nothing to med again? Yeah, poor game design like that might induce a little nostalgia, but how many people will it turn off for the sheer stupidity of it? Regarding corpse runs in particular, the devs ignore important things like the internet isn't always reliable and sometimes games crash. Punishing the players with a corpse run for things out of their control is asinine.






    Mendel said:

    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?






    This comes across as being very ignorant and a backhanded stab, especially for someone who claims to want the game to succeed, yet makes posts like this every chance they get.....

    On the question of it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming it's quite simple. I'll make the analogy to baseball. Many feel watching baseball on TV is akin to watching paint dry, but to actually play the game it's a lot of fun. Everquest was very much like this. Watching someone stream it is much less fun than actually playing it and being in the thick of things. There are many instances of this type of situation. Also, when they have an hour or less, you really want them spending the rest of the stream doing a corpse run?? I can just hear the whining and complaining after that video. It's not that they are afraid to show it, they are just trying to utilize the limited time they have, to show as much as they can. They have been reaching out to different streamers recently as well, so they are trying to introduce that streamers audience to the core gameplay, corpse runs are just one aspect of it. It's all about getting the word out to people.

    If you were marketing a product on TV, would you spend your entire 30 second segment talking about one small aspect of your product, or would you try and touch on as many aspects as you could so that one of those might make a connection with them? It's really not rocket science, there is no shady reason they aren't showing corpse runs. If they were being shady, they wouldn't mention the fact they are having them at all.



    Great response but to someone who grew up playing the latest action MMO they just wont get it. As you clearly pointed out, its like watching someone play chess. How silly to assume that since your not having a blast watching someone do something the people doing it couldn't possible be having fun.
  • DyanuDyanu Member CommonPosts: 9
    Mendel said:
    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?




    This comes across as being very ignorant and a backhanded stab, especially for someone who claims to want the game to succeed, yet makes posts like this every chance they get.....

    On the question of it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming it's quite simple. I'll make the analogy to baseball. Many feel watching baseball on TV is akin to watching paint dry, but to actually play the game it's a lot of fun. Everquest was very much like this. Watching someone stream it is much less fun than actually playing it and being in the thick of things. There are many instances of this type of situation. Also, when they have an hour or less, you really want them spending the rest of the stream doing a corpse run?? I can just hear the whining and complaining after that video. It's not that they are afraid to show it, they are just trying to utilize the limited time they have, to show as much as they can. They have been reaching out to different streamers recently as well, so they are trying to introduce that streamers audience to the core gameplay, corpse runs are just one aspect of it. It's all about getting the word out to people.

    If you were marketing a product on TV, would you spend your entire 30 second segment talking about one small aspect of your product, or would you try and touch on as many aspects as you could so that one of those might make a connection with them? It's really not rocket science, there is no shady reason they aren't showing corpse runs. If they were being shady, they wouldn't mention the fact they are having them at all.
    I also like the fact that corpse runs gave a consequence to mistakes. It made people think twice about making the same mistake, made them more conscious and added an element of danger to the game. It also prompted people to learn from thier mistakes instead of bullying through the content recklessly. 
    Just remember, No matter where you go...there you are!
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,268
    goboygo said:


    Corpse runs? Sitting and doing nothing to med again? Yeah, poor game design like that might induce a little nostalgia, but how many people will it turn off for the sheer stupidity of it? Regarding corpse runs in particular, the devs ignore important things like the internet isn't always reliable and sometimes games crash. Punishing the players with a corpse run for things out of their control is asinine.






    Mendel said:

    I thought the video was slightly prophetic about one point -- they didn't bother to do corpse runs because they had GM tools.  So, the lengthy, old-school aspect of corpse runs and that massive downtime wasn't entertaining enough for developers to show to the world on a video.  Why aren't there people clamoring about leaving this very atmospheric 'feature' out of the game?  Brad and his coneys appear to be willing to let the customers test this feature for them.

    If it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming?






    This comes across as being very ignorant and a backhanded stab, especially for someone who claims to want the game to succeed, yet makes posts like this every chance they get.....

    On the question of it isn't good viewing, why is it good gaming it's quite simple. I'll make the analogy to baseball. Many feel watching baseball on TV is akin to watching paint dry, but to actually play the game it's a lot of fun. Everquest was very much like this. Watching someone stream it is much less fun than actually playing it and being in the thick of things. There are many instances of this type of situation. Also, when they have an hour or less, you really want them spending the rest of the stream doing a corpse run?? I can just hear the whining and complaining after that video. It's not that they are afraid to show it, they are just trying to utilize the limited time they have, to show as much as they can. They have been reaching out to different streamers recently as well, so they are trying to introduce that streamers audience to the core gameplay, corpse runs are just one aspect of it. It's all about getting the word out to people.

    If you were marketing a product on TV, would you spend your entire 30 second segment talking about one small aspect of your product, or would you try and touch on as many aspects as you could so that one of those might make a connection with them? It's really not rocket science, there is no shady reason they aren't showing corpse runs. If they were being shady, they wouldn't mention the fact they are having them at all.



    Great response but to someone who grew up playing the latest action MMO they just wont get it. As you clearly pointed out, its like watching someone play chess. How silly to assume that since your not having a blast watching someone do something the people doing it couldn't possible be having fun.
    Again, my point is missed.

    The point I was making wasn't that VR might be doing something shady, it was they are already treating things like these hosted videos as marketing.  They aren't showing the entire experience, just selected aspects of that experience to highlight the positive and hiding the negative.  VR has made several claims in the past about 'improving on the problems of the past', I just want to see what form these improvements are taking.  Not showing a corpse run indicates that is one of those "problem areas" that many thought were ill-thought out, and that isn't being addressed in the light of 'improving' on the original EQ1 model.

    This may be fine and well for some people, but maybe not for all.  It all boils down to these videos have shifted from 'look what we made' to 'come, play our game'.  That's a subtle, but substantial difference, from progress report to marketing tool.  A progress report target the investors and those already waiting on the game.  A marketing tool is aimed at new players.  Both the developers and the video host cut the 'ramifications of defeat' from their presentations.

    Isn't it a bit early in development (pre-alpha) to begin marketing?




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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