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Let's talk EXP debt death penalty, at max level.

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  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    What the threat of delevelling at max level does is force raid guild players to play for exp during the day to make up for the exp loss from all the deaths raiding (raid experience being nil).  At least that was the way things were in Everquest 1.  And yes you did occasionally have people un-ding at a raid and lose dkp for it. 

    Assuming the group content is tremendously easy for a raid guild player, or at least that the path or least resistance didn't provide any tangibly less loot than harder group monsters, it makes the solution not very fun. 

    Assuming a raid progression at level 50, the better way to handle death at 50 would be unluck.  Lets say that for every death you have you get a point of unluck that decays over a three hour period.  Each point of unluck that a raid has reduces the chance of meaningful loot by 1 percent if playing in a raid.  It would be by 2 percent in a group, and 10 percent while solo. 

    This would mean that a guild who was wiping over and over trying to get to the end of a raid dungeon would only be getting common loot from the endboss when they finish.  The fewer times your raid lost players, the more chance they would have for getting something decent.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    If one players unluck affected the rest of the group or guild, they'd end up getting kicked. I like the idea of debuffs, but it does come with that drawback.


  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    Dullahan said:
    If one players unluck affected the rest of the group or guild, they'd end up getting kicked. I like the idea of debuffs, but it does come with that drawback.
    It would last 3 hours, but yes if you had say a dps that was constantly dying by not doing his job well, I could see a group kicking him.  In the case of a raid, maybe people would get better at doing their jobs.  Would a raid group boot someone from the raid for excessive dying during it?  Kind of depends on the guild in question, and how much they needed body count to survive.  It would make guilds a lot more conscious of people dying and make them be more careful when it came to raids, which is a good thing not a bad thing.  I could see dkp loss for dying to trash in some guilds.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,450
    centkin said:
    What the threat of delevelling at max level does is force raid guild players to play for exp during the day to make up for the exp loss from all the deaths raiding (raid experience being nil).  At least that was the way things were in Everquest 1.  And yes you did occasionally have people un-ding at a raid and lose dkp for it. 

    Assuming the group content is tremendously easy for a raid guild player, or at least that the path or least resistance didn't provide any tangibly less loot than harder group monsters, it makes the solution not very fun. 

    Assuming a raid progression at level 50, the better way to handle death at 50 would be unluck.  Lets say that for every death you have you get a point of unluck that decays over a three hour period.  Each point of unluck that a raid has reduces the chance of meaningful loot by 1 percent if playing in a raid.  It would be by 2 percent in a group, and 10 percent while solo. 

    This would mean that a guild who was wiping over and over trying to get to the end of a raid dungeon would only be getting common loot from the endboss when they finish.  The fewer times your raid lost players, the more chance they would have for getting something decent.
    This is basically a soft lockout. One wipe by a 24-man raid means the raid would only have 1/4 the chance of getting loot. After another 3 total wipes, your guild might as well just pack it in for the day since there is only a 4% chance left for loot.

    Not sure how this is a better way to handle death?

    IMO if your guild manages to kill the boss, no matter how many tries it took, they should receive the same loot as everyone else. The penalty for multiple tries is the abundance of extra time it took to do corpse recoveries, rebuff, and the exp debt (or loss) that occurred along the way.
    dcutbi001
    --------------------------------------------
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    I can tell you in some of the raids I have been with, they would kick you if you had unluck. If for some reason they couldn't see your personal unluck, they would probably have every member of the raid stream their stats and debuffs before being invited. That is how serious a lot of people are about their gaming.
    Kyleran


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Really it was only ever a problem if you didnt have a cleric on hand to res.  
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,113
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)
    Kyleran
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    I don't understand why people want to have such a complicated system for death.  Experience loss and corpse recover works and is simple and fair. This unluck thing someone mentioned for raids, I guess would be ok for later raiders who have notes and the step by step instructions from the net. But I can tell you it would suck for early raids as the people (at least in EQ) that do it first, die a lot until they figure it out.
     I rather they worked on other things in the game than trying to make some unneeded and overly complicated death system. 
     Anyway in EQ at least you always had clerics around on raids and got back most of you experience on res so it was not that big of a deal. 
     
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    t0nyd said:
    I don't understand why xp loss is of any significance. Basically everyone will adapt and have a buffer making death mostly meaningless. Gear loss is the same imo. People will just bank backup gear. The problem with mmorpg is they have never evolved into something with meaning. Character creation has devolved into the basics. Choice rarely matters. You own little to nothing so you have little to nothing to lose.

    Lands need to be available for player control so lands may be gained or lost. Cities need to be destructible to some degree. Characters need much more variation. You need people making what others would call "gimped builds". Some people would rather have gimped characters and they enjoy doing menial things such as crafting, fishing, hunting, cartography, etc. We need more fluid games.

    The problem is that companies see profit in simplifying games. WoW is the beacon others will follow. Reduce options because we are lazy and want balancing to be easy. Such a mistake...
    Actually games like that have been tried in the past before everyone started making WoW clones.
    Horizons early on tried it. They had great ideas but could not pull it off. I not sure if it was poor programming or just that the computers back in 2002 were not up to it. I would love to see someone try something similar now days. Maybe they could pull it off. I don't ever expect to see one though.
    [Deleted User]
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,113
    Seriously I have no issue with a small amount of XP being lost but there would have to be a limit per day/week and it should not be able to take you down a level. That is far better than any sort of looting, I don't want to fly someone's pants from the top of my fort thanks. :)
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    Scot said:
    Seriously I have no issue with a small amount of XP being lost but there would have to be a limit per day/week and it should not be able to take you down a level. That is far better than any sort of looting, I don't want to fly someone's pants from the top of my fort thanks. :)
    No in game limit is needed as that would defeat the whole purpose of having a death penalty.
    The limit would be that you would stop doing what ever stupid thing you were doing to die over and over. I have to wonder if you ever played a game with this type of death penalty as in early EQ it was not that bad.
     On raids in EQ I only remember one person ever getting locked out and have to re-level before coming back into the raid zone. This was because they just leveled to 50 right before the raid and had no buffer. If the zone had not been level locked, it would have made no difference as there was little different between a level 49 and a level 50 skill or ability wise.
    We have no clue if this game is going to have level lock areas but I sort of doubt it.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,113
    Mylan12 said:
    Scot said:
    Seriously I have no issue with a small amount of XP being lost but there would have to be a limit per day/week and it should not be able to take you down a level. That is far better than any sort of looting, I don't want to fly someone's pants from the top of my fort thanks. :)
    No in game limit is needed as that would defeat the whole purpose of having a death penalty.
    The limit would be that you would stop doing what ever stupid thing you were doing to die over and over. I have to wonder if you ever played a game with this type of death penalty as in early EQ it was not that bad.
     On raids in EQ I only remember one person ever getting locked out and have to re-level before coming back into the raid zone. This was because they just leveled to 50 right before the raid and had no buffer. If the zone had not been level locked, it would have made no difference as there was little different between a level 49 and a level 50 skill or ability wise.
    We have no clue if this game is going to have level lock areas but I sort of doubt it.


    The limits are needed because the mechanic should be a penalty not a punishment. Losing 1XP will make players take notice of something, though of course I am not suggesting something so ridiculously minuscule. But players are like that, you don't need hefty XP fines for players to stop doing what caused them to lose xp.
    Kyleran
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    Scot said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Scot said:
    Seriously I have no issue with a small amount of XP being lost but there would have to be a limit per day/week and it should not be able to take you down a level. That is far better than any sort of looting, I don't want to fly someone's pants from the top of my fort thanks. :)
    No in game limit is needed as that would defeat the whole purpose of having a death penalty.
    The limit would be that you would stop doing what ever stupid thing you were doing to die over and over. I have to wonder if you ever played a game with this type of death penalty as in early EQ it was not that bad.
     On raids in EQ I only remember one person ever getting locked out and have to re-level before coming back into the raid zone. This was because they just leveled to 50 right before the raid and had no buffer. If the zone had not been level locked, it would have made no difference as there was little different between a level 49 and a level 50 skill or ability wise.
    We have no clue if this game is going to have level lock areas but I sort of doubt it.


    The limits are needed because the mechanic should be a penalty not a punishment. Losing 1XP will make players take notice of something, though of course I am not suggesting something so ridiculously minuscule. But players are like that, you don't need hefty XP fines for players to stop doing what caused them to lose xp.
    Who said they were going to be "hefty"? They certainly were not in early EQ but they were enough that you didn't try and use death to get around game mechanics as happens in some games and it was enough to keep you from doing stupid things over and over.
    I really doubt they are going to make the exp loss and such worse than EQ was back in the day if that is what you are worried about.
    Scot
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)

    And there are games like this; e.g. I play hardcore league in Path of Exile.

    Pantheon is not the type of game that supports permanent death. Raiding will always involve player death to a certain extent and should be absolutely brutal during the learning curve for each raid.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,112
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)
    I actually would like to try that someday in a PvP game.  I think it would make everyone think twice about mindless killing.  Sure, it would still happen... but I think it would be very interesting to try.

    Maybe on a special Crowfall ruleset server or something...
    Kyleran

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,516
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)

    And there are games like this; e.g. I play hardcore league in Path of Exile.

    Pantheon is not the type of game that supports permanent death. Raiding will always involve player death to a certain extent and should be absolutely brutal during the learning curve for each raid.

    Why must it be brutal?  Can’t you just slam your hand in a door or somthing when you wipe and leave the rest of us out of your strange desire for being “punished?”
    Wellspring

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,678
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)

    And there are games like this; e.g. I play hardcore league in Path of Exile.

    Pantheon is not the type of game that supports permanent death. Raiding will always involve player death to a certain extent and should be absolutely brutal during the learning curve for each raid.

    Are you suggesting a different death mechanism for raids?  That could be interesting, and certainly would be new.  "Being on a raid" using a "raid death system" would definitely require a bit more 'suspension of disbelief' than normal, but not excessively so.  After all, EQ1 had all sorts of different combat mechanics for weapons damage (and certain spells) between PvE and Dueling/PvP.  So, that might be a loose precedent.

    Expounding on the "different death mechanism for raids" idea.  It would allow 'the raid game' to impose all sorts of even more brutal penalties that the 'regular game' wouldn't need to bother with.  Maybe even including permanent death, although I doubt that the VR developers would go that far.  But there could be all sorts of latitudes of harshness with a variety of "death and you're out of this raid" affects.  One rez per character?  Non-XP rezzes only?  Naked-corpse runs?  This could even be selected by the Raid leader when the raid is formed, affecting the encounter difficulty / reward.  Just brainstorming a bit here.

    I doubt that such a system would be accepted by the mainstream Pantheon fans.  It does set up a distinct 'end game' that many wouldn't like.  It would be like a second version of the game.  Interesting though the idea of 2 games within a single title might be, I doubt I'd be playing; the old school end game doesn't appeal to me.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,667
    Death penalties don't bother me it does make players play carefully and also help others so it is a good thing.

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)

    And there are games like this; e.g. I play hardcore league in Path of Exile.

    Pantheon is not the type of game that supports permanent death. Raiding will always involve player death to a certain extent and should be absolutely brutal during the learning curve for each raid.

    Why must it be brutal?  Can’t you just slam your hand in a door or somthing when you wipe and leave the rest of us out of your strange desire for being “punished?”
    No...

    Image result for funny gimp ball
    Kyleran
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    Amathe said:
    svann said:
    It seems to me that in a group centric game an overly harsh death penalty punishes players for joining bad groups.  This enhances the mindset that "I never join pugs because you always get noobs", which in turn pushes new players out.  If people wont group with strangers then there is a problem.  There must be a balance.
    Nowadays if you draw a group member whose play is bad, then they just get a scarlet letter "N" for noob and are kicked from the group. Of course, they don't learn anything that way.

    In older games, if someone's play was poor, people were much more likely to help them. "Hold off on the nukes until the tank has a minute to build aggro." "Come closer or you will get adds."

    Hopefully Pantheon's players won't bring the worst of WoW culture to this game. If they do, it will be interesting to see whose customs and practices win out. 
    Maybe if the death penalty was like early EQ then the players would learn early on how to play their character and we see less bad players. I assume of course that most people playing the game wish to play their character well. If they don't then I guess they can stay level 10 or so and continue dying over and over?
     That was the reason we helped people in EQ, we assumed that if they made it to level 50 or whatever that they were serious and really wanted to play well but maybe they had soloed too much or not done any raids at all. 
    Amathe
  • Aragon100Aragon100 Member RarePosts: 2,686
    edited May 2018
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    Agree. Games without risk vs reward becomes boring really fast. Take WoW where all you had to risk was a corpserun. 

    The feeling of risk and loosing/winning something make games more meaningful, especially in the long run.


  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    I don't see why you are bothering with looting/ xp penalties whatever, if this is about bringing meaning to kills, why don't you just have your account wiped on first death? Think of how thrilling that will be. ;)

    And there are games like this; e.g. I play hardcore league in Path of Exile.

    Pantheon is not the type of game that supports permanent death. Raiding will always involve player death to a certain extent and should be absolutely brutal during the learning curve for each raid.

    Why must it be brutal?  Can’t you just slam your hand in a door or somthing when you wipe and leave the rest of us out of your strange desire for being “punished?”


    Something as fundamental as a death penalty affects every aspect of the game. It shapes the entire community and how that community approaches risk/reward.

    Simply opting out does not accomplish this.

    Wellspring

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • DyanuDyanu Member CommonPosts: 9
    edited May 2018
    I say keep the deleveling/exp loss throughout the character levels and possibly allow leveling players to toggle a certain amount of exp into a temporary buffer from level to level, but when max level is reached, players to automatically earn exp regularly in a permanent (since the next level cannot be reached yet) exp buffer to the next level. You can call this," buffer " Veteran Experience or Mastery Experience? 
    Just remember, No matter where you go...there you are!
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited June 2018
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.
    WellspringGyva02
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,678
    Sinist said:
    My hope is they stick with a fully naked CR, hefty EXP loss with level loss. There should be NO graveyards in a zone and the only way you can regain your corpse is by getting it dragged to you in the zone, or having it "summoned" to you in the zone through a spell or special skill of a certain class. Only thing I would change from original EQ concerning this is no corpse rot, it was never intended anyway, and besides, such permanent loss doesn't work well with a long term development game (ie perm death and loss is better suited for Rogue-like systems) . 

    This may actually be a hard sell for the newer generation.  The naked corpse run implies a loss of items, which was definitely in the Apr99 version of EQ through that corpse rot function.  I have also heard that corpse rot was an accidental feature, but it fits in the mentality of the naked corpse run.  If you don't get your corpse back, you could lose your stuff.  Loss of items probably wouldn't fly with the younger generation players.

    Sinist said:

    Exp debt never made any sense to me. In all the games I played, it was completely irrelevant to me, it didn't make me fear anything, it didn't have any negative other than it meant I had to wait longer to gain my next level. With exp loss and a chance to de-level, there is the threat of losing abilities and spells you obtained at that level (ie you need to level again to use them) or in some cases, it really created a threat of being locked out of a zone or area). 

    I totally agree here.  The concept of experience debt has never made sense to me.  I hope that Pantheon will find a better alternative than this kind of system.


    Sinist said:

    If the worry is people will be capped and ding to the next level on any new expansion, well.. you can make the last level of the current content be a "shallow" level while it is the "end level". That is, make the exp amount be small enough into that level that it is easy to lose the level if you die too much. Make it something like  3-5 deaths without a rez will de-level you from 50 back to 49. 

    This way, death still has a threat, and people can't simply cap out the level and never worry about losing too much exp to de-level. 

    I would do that, and then on each expansion release, you expand that level to its natural exp amount which may make the exp bar look as if it is barely filled. This way, you don't get Day 1 people spamming into the first level. The entire server has to then earn its way through the level before new levels are gained. 

    Just a thought and I really don't care too much about how that end cap is handled, just as it isn't a hand out.
    Focusing on max level experience cap seems a bit odd for a progression based game.  Rather than worrying about players at capped experience, I'd suggest starting a set of class-specific 1-use AAs at that level, AND have the max level be a shallow level.  Purchasing an AA would reduce the XP by a large amount (2x Death Penalty).  Give the players a choice when dying at max level, lose the XP and possibly de-level, or unlearn an AA.

    I'd also like to see some kind of skill loss, especially if skills are going to advance like in EQ1.  Maybe a 10 skill loss for the primary equipped skill for a death at every level.  This makes a real functional distinction between a character who hasn't died, and one that has died several times recently.  It would force groups and raids to rotate characters that might frequently die.  In my opinion, a mechanism like this would add a real fear of death -- a 50th level that only functions as well as a 42nd level might.  (With this kind of skill penalty, I could easily see AAs that 'purchase' 5 skill points).  Removing an actual skill or spell in game might be too time consuming as the player might need to adjust hotkeys or the UI, but adjusting the effectiveness of a skill could be easily handled server-side.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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