Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Let's talk EXP debt death penalty, at max level.

135

Comments

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,047
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Umm, Full loot PvP != having to do a corpse retrieval. The latter is only an inconvenience, not a permanent loss of your stuff. 

    It is perfectly logical to like one and not the other. 
    If the game is truly hardcore there should be some significant possibility that recovering your corpse and gear even when killed in PVE may not necessarily happen.

    I recall in SB you dropped everything in your backpack, which anyone who came along could loot you, even if an npc is what killed you.

    L1 and 2 were similar,  die to a mop and you had a chance to drop a valuable piece of your gear, which again anyone could loot.

    This lead to some frantic if not near terrifying runs back hoping your item was still there.

    I once came across a very expensive A level weapon which had been plussed up quite high.

    I could not use it but would have made a bundle selling it, but its former owner showed up looking for it.

    I saw him searching for it in the distance so I asked what he was seeking and he confirmed it was the sword I found, and asked for it back.

    So I gave it to him with no argument.   He thanked me for my graciousness and tipped me a decent amount of adena, and went on his way.

    Now, that was a rewarding scenario for me, but quite honestly I could have done without all of the terror running back to find my gear, which I did lose on occasion.

    So back to my question,  how is it really different?

    Or are you saying you want "risk" and "challenge" to make the game more rewarding, but not really.....you don't really want to risk anything, just make it harder to recover.

    To me that's not more challenge,  just unnecessary hassle and of little interest. 

    Besides, players just find workarounds to "game" the system.

    In my Lineage 1 example, we had 100 slots in our backpacks, which routinely were filled with 95 inexpensive candles.

    Item drop chance was 1 in how many items you carried and wore, so with the above trick it really lowered the risk of dropping much of value.

    But see, that was just an annoyance,  and as I recall did not work in Lineage 2, of which I was greatful for, even if it increased the terror of dropping gear.

    Just do away with such nonsense, you want challenge, devs can amp up the encounters until they are nigh unbeatable, anything else is useless annoyance.....

    Well, unless I can loot it.....

    ;)


    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm sure you can understand the appeal, and why people prefer consequences, you just don't like it. I certainly understand your ideology, but there are so many games that fit that bill right now it would make no sense for Pantheon to go this route - especially considering who is involved with it. 

    To me, what you're suggesting with just ramping up the difficulty with no consequence makes for a really bland game. It would essentially be a low budget WoW, a game full of loot pinatas where the goal is to just beat on them until goodies fall out.

    When you said that excessive punishment in a PvE game is bad, you're right, by definition of course. Too much of anything is bad, just as not enough of anything is bad in the same context. Without bad there's no good, without up there's no down, and without negative consequence, reward doesn't exist.

    The one thing to consider, is a game like old EQ did not punish you. The game itself gave you enough rope to hang yourself, but it was your decision to go and find a tree. However, the ones that risked more, gained more in both gear and experience.
    DullahanGyva02
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,854
    I never played EQ1, but I did play Vanguard and I found the naked corpse running just annoying, especially when my corpse was camped by enemy faction players who just killed me relentlessly.

    Stupid mechanic....

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,673
    edited April 2018
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Umm, Full loot PvP != having to do a corpse retrieval. The latter is only an inconvenience, not a permanent loss of your stuff. 

    It is perfectly logical to like one and not the other. 
    If the game is truly hardcore there should be some significant possibility that recovering your corpse and gear even when killed in PVE may not necessarily happen.

    I recall in SB you dropped everything in your backpack, which anyone who came along could loot you, even if an npc is what killed you.

    L1 and 2 were similar,  die to a mop and you had a chance to drop a valuable piece of your gear, which again anyone could loot.

    This lead to some frantic if not near terrifying runs back hoping your item was still there.

    I once came across a very expensive A level weapon which had been plussed up quite high.

    I could not use it but would have made a bundle selling it, but its former owner showed up looking for it.

    I saw him searching for it in the distance so I asked what he was seeking and he confirmed it was the sword I found, and asked for it back.

    So I gave it to him with no argument.   He thanked me for my graciousness and tipped me a decent amount of adena, and went on his way.

    Now, that was a rewarding scenario for me, but quite honestly I could have done without all of the terror running back to find my gear, which I did lose on occasion.

    So back to my question,  how is it really different?

    Or are you saying you want "risk" and "challenge" to make the game more rewarding, but not really.....you don't really want to risk anything, just make it harder to recover.

    To me that's not more challenge,  just unnecessary hassle and of little interest. 

    Besides, players just find workarounds to "game" the system.

    In my Lineage 1 example, we had 100 slots in our backpacks, which routinely were filled with 95 inexpensive candles.

    Item drop chance was 1 in how many items you carried and wore, so with the above trick it really lowered the risk of dropping much of value.

    But see, that was just an annoyance,  and as I recall did not work in Lineage 2, of which I was greatful for, even if it increased the terror of dropping gear.

    Just do away with such nonsense, you want challenge, devs can amp up the encounters until they are nigh unbeatable, anything else is useless annoyance.....

    Well, unless I can loot it.....

    ;)


    Those were the days.

    Once I accidentally one-shot a guy in front of a city on Talking Island, became red of course and got hunted down by a guard. I dropped like half of my avadon set (B grade, top at that time) when they killed me. Then I just saw bunch of newbies running towards my corpse to loot my gear I worked for months to get. I thought I will cry :D.

    Luckily for me, I convinced the guy that looted it to sell it back to me for an acceptable if still painful sum of Adena.

    On another occasion, I looted some guy's Lance (also B grade, almost top wep at the time) in Lair of Antharas. I refused to give it back to him and sold it for cool 50 mil instead :D. I remember he was trying to grief me for weeks afterwards by bringing trains of mobs close to me. I think he managed to get me killed once doing that :D.

    So much cool and unexpected drama in that game. Today's MMOs just feel "flat". 
    Gyva02KyleranDullahanTorval
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 232
    Kyleran said:
    I never played EQ1, but I did play Vanguard and I found the naked corpse running just annoying, especially when my corpse was camped by enemy faction players who just killed me relentlessly.

    Stupid mechanic....
    It was not so bad in EQ on the PvE servers anyway.   Most people had to ask for help anyway just to find the corpse. Before they had necromancers who could summon corpses that was a bard. He/she could find the corpse and then train the mobs around while you recovered it. 
     The point being that in EQ at least early on, people helped each other even total strangers.
    EQ was very social. I hope that Pantheon is like that but then I not sure if it was the game that made it that way or that the people playing early on were just that way.

    KyleranWellspring
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    To complain about Vanguard death penalty is almost like opposing a death mechanic in general. You could summon your body from any rift and get back the lost exp in under 30 minutes. A fairly light cost of repair, no time lost, and with it's ez fast travel, you were back fighting in minutes.

    I would be extremely disappointed if Pantheon's death penalty were as weak as Vanguard's. I had no fear of dying in games with such weak penalties. As a result, rewards in those games and sense of accomplishment paled in comparison to that of EQ.
    AmatheWellspring


  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877
    edited April 2018
    TwoTubes said:
    Part of me hopes that the player base considers the Progeny system mandatory and all of this max lvl concern is inconsequential.
    That's all I intend on doing personally.   The progeny system is the main thing drawing me to this game.   
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220
    I am a fan of de-leveling because it promotes more serious tone when playing. A death penalty with loss of experience promotes a crucible that players go through to become better players. You find out that Corpse Runs, lose of experience with no rez can be detrimental to your character and your time. The frequency of it happening will be lessen because player skills will rise along with their awareness. Their decision making becomes more meaningful during combat. 

    The whole XP-loss and XP-Debt works while you level. XP-loss can work at end game but I agree with other posters that XP-Debt is meaningless at max level. Not sure how to combat that. 
    Wellspringjpedrote52
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Amathe said:
    svann said:
    It seems to me that in a group centric game an overly harsh death penalty punishes players for joining bad groups.  This enhances the mindset that "I never join pugs because you always get noobs", which in turn pushes new players out.  If people wont group with strangers then there is a problem.  There must be a balance.
    Nowadays if you draw a group member whose play is bad, then they just get a scarlet letter "N" for noob and are kicked from the group. Of course, they don't learn anything that way.

    In older games, if someone's play was poor, people were much more likely to help them. "Hold off on the nukes until the tank has a minute to build aggro." "Come closer or you will get adds."

    Hopefully Pantheon's players won't bring the worst of WoW culture to this game. If they do, it will be interesting to see whose customs and practices win out. 

    Without constant in-game moderation, the toxic culture almost always wins.

    Usually the only people willing to continue to play in a toxic culture are the people responsible for it. At least until there is nobody left to play with and they move on to poison the next game.

    Kyleran

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Kyleran said:
    I never played EQ1, but I did play Vanguard and I found the naked corpse running just annoying, especially when my corpse was camped by enemy faction players who just killed me relentlessly.

    Stupid mechanic....
    1) VG had PvE servers for you (as will Pantheon)
    2) if you let yourself get relentlessly corpse camped in VG you were not playing it right
    3) death isn't supposed to be enjoyable
    --------------------------------------------
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,854
    Kyleran said:
    I never played EQ1, but I did play Vanguard and I found the naked corpse running just annoying, especially when my corpse was camped by enemy faction players who just killed me relentlessly.

    Stupid mechanic....
    1) VG had PvE servers for you (as will Pantheon)
    2) if you let yourself get relentlessly corpse camped in VG you were not playing it right
    3) death isn't supposed to be enjoyable
    1) yeah, but I generally play on PVP servers, spices up the game play a bit. 

    2) probably not but my system at the time struggled running the game well which contributed to the problem.

    3) true,  but death isn't supposed to be unavoidable and relentless and having to go back and recover my gear made it annoying and pointless.

    At least in EVE after getting my ship (and Pod sometimes) blown up I could just reship where my gear was and go about my business.

    They never put any real effort into the faction servers,  it could have been better.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,365
    Amathe said:
    svann said:
    It seems to me that in a group centric game an overly harsh death penalty punishes players for joining bad groups.  This enhances the mindset that "I never join pugs because you always get noobs", which in turn pushes new players out.  If people wont group with strangers then there is a problem.  There must be a balance.
    Nowadays if you draw a group member whose play is bad, then they just get a scarlet letter "N" for noob and are kicked from the group. Of course, they don't learn anything that way.

    In older games, if someone's play was poor, people were much more likely to help them. "Hold off on the nukes until the tank has a minute to build aggro." "Come closer or you will get adds."

    Hopefully Pantheon's players won't bring the worst of WoW culture to this game. If they do, it will be interesting to see whose customs and practices win out. 

    Without constant in-game moderation, the toxic culture almost always wins.

    Usually the only people willing to continue to play in a toxic culture are the people responsible for it. At least until there is nobody left to play with and they move on to poison the next game.

    Perhaps. But this game is being designed on the premise that social, cooperative play will be rewarded. So I am holding out that they come through on that intention. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    edited April 2018
    Dullahan said:
    To complain about Vanguard death penalty is almost like opposing a death mechanic in general. You could summon your body from any rift and get back the lost exp in under 30 minutes. A fairly light cost of repair, no time lost, and with it's ez fast travel, you were back fighting in minutes.

    I would be extremely disappointed if Pantheon's death penalty were as weak as Vanguard's. I had no fear of dying in games with such weak penalties. As a result, rewards in those games and sense of accomplishment paled in comparison to that of EQ.
    Agreed.

    It's been almost 10 years since many of us have played Vanguard, so it bears refreshing.

    Here's the death penalty system from Vanguard:
    (Source: http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Combat)

    Dying

    When your Hit Points are totally exhausted, you die. However in Vanguard, death is only a temporary setback — though there is a cost.

    Note: These rules are subject to change on alternate ruleset servers

    Altars & Resurrection


    When you’re killed, you have two choices. First, you can lie there and wait for an ally or passing player character to use a resurrection spell on you. This is the best option if such a healer is at hand. You will be raised near the spot where you were killed (watch out for hostile creatures that might try to ambush you while still weak from resurrection) and you won’t have to worry about recovering your body.

    If there’s nobody around to raise you from the dead, you can click on Release Your Body and raise yourself at the nearest altar. This option drains more Experience than second-party resurrection, but you can mitigate some of this experience loss by recovering your body (see below).

    If you lie dead for 10 minutes without being raised, your body will automatically release to the nearest altar. New Characters. Note that new characters (Levels 1-10) do not suffer experience penalties from death, nor do they leave behind bodies when they release to an altar. As soon as you reach Level 11 you will start to suffer body loss and experience penalties.

    Body & Equipment Recovery


    If you release your body to resurrect at an altar, you leave your body behind in the place you died. Your body is marked with a tombstone, and you automatically have its location recorded in your Quest Journal.

    If you return to the place of your death and recover your body (double-click or right-click on your tombstone) you will regain some lost Experience.

    It takes a few uninterrupted seconds to recover a body in the wild, so make sure the area is secure before you double-click on your tombstone.

    There is no limit to the number of tombstones that you have, but tombstones will disappear after a while (two hours). If you lost any equipment at a tombstone that has disappeared, you can buy it back at any altar, for a percentage of its original value.

    Altar Recovery. As an alternative to visiting your gravesite to retrieve your belongings, you may also have your remains summoned to you at an altar. The gods do demand a high price for this service, so don’t expect this option to be easy on your pocketbook.

    Soulbinding. Most equipment in the game is “Bindable”. This means is that you may use a Binding Crystal (obtainable at General Goods Merchants throughout Telon) on an item, which will cause it to become Soulbound. Soulbound items may not be traded to other players, but when you die and appear at an altar, your soulbound items will still be with you rather than at the site of your death.

    Experience Penalties & Debt


    When you die, you lose some of the Adventuring experience you have accrued. This is true whether you are raised on site or release to an altar. Recovering your body can reduce this penalty, but won’t eliminate it. You can’t lose an earned level due to experience penalties, but if you forfeit all the experience you’ve earned in your current level, you will start to go into experience debt. This debt will have to be worked off with new earned experience before you can resume progress towards the next level. Currently you respawn without equipment. All of your equipment that is either soulbound (magically linked to you) or in your saddlebags will still be with you. You have the option of paying an additional penalty at the altar to retrieve your belongings back, or re-equipping (with gear in your saddlebags, or wherever else you can get it) and doing a corpse recovery. Recovering your corpse will always be the better choice, if you have the time and resources to get back to where you died. Paying the penalty and regaining your equipment at the altar forfeits the opportunity to get experience back by recovering your corpse.


    Hardly a very punishing death penalty system by any means.
    --------------------------------------------
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,365
    This is just one thought, building on what some others have said.

    Assume that max level players will still have an xp bar of some type.

    I think (at max level) that each death should impose a debuff that only the use use of earned xp from that bar can remove. The more deaths, the more debuffs, and the more xp earned it would take to remove them all.

    But conversely, I think at max level buffs should be acquired for the amount of xp earned without any deaths. 

    That way, max level players would have a carrot and a stick to avoid dying. 
    WellspringMendelLokero

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Amathe said:
    This is just one thought, building on what some others have said.

    Assume that max level players will still have an xp bar of some type.

    I think (at max level) that each death should impose a debuff that only the use use of earned xp from that bar can remove. The more deaths, the more debuffs, and the more xp earned it would take to remove them all.

    But conversely, I think at max level buffs should be acquired for the amount of xp earned without any deaths. 

    That way, max level players would have a carrot and a stick to avoid dying. 
    I like where your mind is at, trying to come up with an innovative solution. 

    Playing a little devils advocate, however, would you consider deleveling from 50 to 49 to be basically the same as a debuff?

    Or the progeny system basically the same as a buff for earning exp beyond max level, but on a macro scale?

    Maybe the added complexity doesn't add value?

    Not to knock your idea or the other related ideas by any means -- it's a better solution to the "Xp-debt at max level" problem than anything I've come up with. I'm just trying to poke holes in the idea to see if it can still float. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,854
    Dullahan said:
    To complain about Vanguard death penalty is almost like opposing a death mechanic in general. You could summon your body from any rift and get back the lost exp in under 30 minutes. A fairly light cost of repair, no time lost, and with it's ez fast travel, you were back fighting in minutes.

    I would be extremely disappointed if Pantheon's death penalty were as weak as Vanguard's. I had no fear of dying in games with such weak penalties. As a result, rewards in those games and sense of accomplishment paled in comparison to that of EQ.
    Agreed.

    It's been almost 10 years since many of us have played Vanguard, so it bears refreshing.

    Here's the death penalty system from Vanguard:
    (Source: http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Combat)

    Dying

    When your Hit Points are totally exhausted, you die. However in Vanguard, death is only a temporary setback — though there is a cost.

    Note: These rules are subject to change on alternate ruleset servers

    Altars & Resurrection


    When you’re killed, you have two choices. First, you can lie there and wait for an ally or passing player character to use a resurrection spell on you. This is the best option if such a healer is at hand. You will be raised near the spot where you were killed (watch out for hostile creatures that might try to ambush you while still weak from resurrection) and you won’t have to worry about recovering your body.

    If there’s nobody around to raise you from the dead, you can click on Release Your Body and raise yourself at the nearest altar. This option drains more Experience than second-party resurrection, but you can mitigate some of this experience loss by recovering your body (see below).

    If you lie dead for 10 minutes without being raised, your body will automatically release to the nearest altar. New Characters. Note that new characters (Levels 1-10) do not suffer experience penalties from death, nor do they leave behind bodies when they release to an altar. As soon as you reach Level 11 you will start to suffer body loss and experience penalties.

    Body & Equipment Recovery


    If you release your body to resurrect at an altar, you leave your body behind in the place you died. Your body is marked with a tombstone, and you automatically have its location recorded in your Quest Journal.

    If you return to the place of your death and recover your body (double-click or right-click on your tombstone) you will regain some lost Experience.

    It takes a few uninterrupted seconds to recover a body in the wild, so make sure the area is secure before you double-click on your tombstone.

    There is no limit to the number of tombstones that you have, but tombstones will disappear after a while (two hours). If you lost any equipment at a tombstone that has disappeared, you can buy it back at any altar, for a percentage of its original value.

    Altar Recovery. As an alternative to visiting your gravesite to retrieve your belongings, you may also have your remains summoned to you at an altar. The gods do demand a high price for this service, so don’t expect this option to be easy on your pocketbook.

    Soulbinding. Most equipment in the game is “Bindable”. This means is that you may use a Binding Crystal (obtainable at General Goods Merchants throughout Telon) on an item, which will cause it to become Soulbound. Soulbound items may not be traded to other players, but when you die and appear at an altar, your soulbound items will still be with you rather than at the site of your death.

    Experience Penalties & Debt


    When you die, you lose some of the Adventuring experience you have accrued. This is true whether you are raised on site or release to an altar. Recovering your body can reduce this penalty, but won’t eliminate it. You can’t lose an earned level due to experience penalties, but if you forfeit all the experience you’ve earned in your current level, you will start to go into experience debt. This debt will have to be worked off with new earned experience before you can resume progress towards the next level. Currently you respawn without equipment. All of your equipment that is either soulbound (magically linked to you) or in your saddlebags will still be with you. You have the option of paying an additional penalty at the altar to retrieve your belongings back, or re-equipping (with gear in your saddlebags, or wherever else you can get it) and doing a corpse recovery. Recovering your corpse will always be the better choice, if you have the time and resources to get back to where you died. Paying the penalty and regaining your equipment at the altar forfeits the opportunity to get experience back by recovering your corpse.


    Hardly a very punishing death penalty system by any means.
    No, just time wasting and annoying, especially on the faction server which I'm guessing you didn't play.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    To complain about Vanguard death penalty is almost like opposing a death mechanic in general. You could summon your body from any rift and get back the lost exp in under 30 minutes. A fairly light cost of repair, no time lost, and with it's ez fast travel, you were back fighting in minutes.

    I would be extremely disappointed if Pantheon's death penalty were as weak as Vanguard's. I had no fear of dying in games with such weak penalties. As a result, rewards in those games and sense of accomplishment paled in comparison to that of EQ.
    Agreed.

    It's been almost 10 years since many of us have played Vanguard, so it bears refreshing.

    Here's the death penalty system from Vanguard:
    (Source: http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Combat)

    Dying

    When your Hit Points are totally exhausted, you die. However in Vanguard, death is only a temporary setback — though there is a cost.

    Note: These rules are subject to change on alternate ruleset servers

    Altars & Resurrection


    When you’re killed, you have two choices. First, you can lie there and wait for an ally or passing player character to use a resurrection spell on you. This is the best option if such a healer is at hand. You will be raised near the spot where you were killed (watch out for hostile creatures that might try to ambush you while still weak from resurrection) and you won’t have to worry about recovering your body.

    If there’s nobody around to raise you from the dead, you can click on Release Your Body and raise yourself at the nearest altar. This option drains more Experience than second-party resurrection, but you can mitigate some of this experience loss by recovering your body (see below).

    If you lie dead for 10 minutes without being raised, your body will automatically release to the nearest altar. New Characters. Note that new characters (Levels 1-10) do not suffer experience penalties from death, nor do they leave behind bodies when they release to an altar. As soon as you reach Level 11 you will start to suffer body loss and experience penalties.

    Body & Equipment Recovery


    If you release your body to resurrect at an altar, you leave your body behind in the place you died. Your body is marked with a tombstone, and you automatically have its location recorded in your Quest Journal.

    If you return to the place of your death and recover your body (double-click or right-click on your tombstone) you will regain some lost Experience.

    It takes a few uninterrupted seconds to recover a body in the wild, so make sure the area is secure before you double-click on your tombstone.

    There is no limit to the number of tombstones that you have, but tombstones will disappear after a while (two hours). If you lost any equipment at a tombstone that has disappeared, you can buy it back at any altar, for a percentage of its original value.

    Altar Recovery. As an alternative to visiting your gravesite to retrieve your belongings, you may also have your remains summoned to you at an altar. The gods do demand a high price for this service, so don’t expect this option to be easy on your pocketbook.

    Soulbinding. Most equipment in the game is “Bindable”. This means is that you may use a Binding Crystal (obtainable at General Goods Merchants throughout Telon) on an item, which will cause it to become Soulbound. Soulbound items may not be traded to other players, but when you die and appear at an altar, your soulbound items will still be with you rather than at the site of your death.

    Experience Penalties & Debt


    When you die, you lose some of the Adventuring experience you have accrued. This is true whether you are raised on site or release to an altar. Recovering your body can reduce this penalty, but won’t eliminate it. You can’t lose an earned level due to experience penalties, but if you forfeit all the experience you’ve earned in your current level, you will start to go into experience debt. This debt will have to be worked off with new earned experience before you can resume progress towards the next level. Currently you respawn without equipment. All of your equipment that is either soulbound (magically linked to you) or in your saddlebags will still be with you. You have the option of paying an additional penalty at the altar to retrieve your belongings back, or re-equipping (with gear in your saddlebags, or wherever else you can get it) and doing a corpse recovery. Recovering your corpse will always be the better choice, if you have the time and resources to get back to where you died. Paying the penalty and regaining your equipment at the altar forfeits the opportunity to get experience back by recovering your corpse.


    Hardly a very punishing death penalty system by any means.
    No, just time wasting and annoying, especially on the faction server which I'm guessing you didn't play.


    No, I didn't. I played on the FFA PvP server, which was later merged with the other PvP servers into Sartok, which was also a FFA PvP server. I never tried the team PvP ruleset. 

    I did come from EQ1 though before VG, so that has a heavy influence on my death penalty preferences. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,516
    Amathe said:
    This is just one thought, building on what some others have said.

    Assume that max level players will still have an xp bar of some type.

    I think (at max level) that each death should impose a debuff that only the use use of earned xp from that bar can remove. The more deaths, the more debuffs, and the more xp earned it would take to remove them all.

    But conversely, I think at max level buffs should be acquired for the amount of xp earned without any deaths. 

    That way, max level players would have a carrot and a stick to avoid dying. 
    I like the thinking here.  What about an alternative?  You only gain XP at level 49, never at max level.  Once you ding to max level, you get a special buff to take you back to level 49 (turning on XP).  It would be a guaranteed duration of 3 hours.  When the buff expires, you can purchase another buff with XP, like you suggested.  If you want to work on AA progression, you need to drop back to 49th to level away.  Maybe dropping back to 49 is a bad idea, but the on-off switch of max-level XP via an XP-purchased buff could work.

    If you just want to raid or craft (or goof around) you wouldn't need the XP ON buff.  Use your idea of max-level death causing a debuff (fixed 3 hour duration) that can only be removed with an XP purchase.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,365
    Many games save your best and most powerful abilities for max level. If you are on an end game raid and you de-level, that could result in you becoming raid ineligible  or no longer being able to meaningfully contribute. So I think some sort of alternative penalty would be appropriate in that situation.

    But it definitely should matter. I would hate to see Pantheon morph into WoW at max level, where death is merely a run back.
    Lokero

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited May 2018
    Wizardry said:
    #1 I hate any focus on max level play ,especially before a game is even out.

    I get it. "Enjoy the adventure, don't focus on the end game."

    But don't be short-sighted. Vanguard launched w/ that philosophy (0 raid content, no quests past lvl 40, the exp debt system described) and look how that turned out.

    When designing a system as important as the death exp penalty, you have to take into account all levels of play -- especially max level. Because after the first X amount of time it takes to initially level up, max level play is what everyone will be experiencing from then on out.
    Using Vanguard as a measure of failure for another MMO is like using WoW as a measure of success. Both are exceptions, not the norm. Vanguard's problems are well-documented, and were apparent, from level 1 on up.

    As for end-game and so on... I've always considered End-Game to be a kind of abstract thing that I'll reach "eventually". I don't worry about it or consider reaching it "a goal", any more than I consider finishing the last page of a book "a goal", or reaching the end credit scroll in a movie a "goal". What matters (to me) is what happens, and how much I'm enjoying myself along the way.

    For me, in all the MMOs I've played, those with death penalties - including level loss - always had that extra amount of 'oomph' to them. Actions and decisions carried that much more weight, because the repercussions for failure had that much more bite. And, for me, it made succeeding at a dangerous task all the more satisfying.

    My view on level and xp loss was always in the context that I treated MMOs as a long-term hobby, not something I was trying to finihh and move on from. So, if I died and lost xp? No big deal. I'll get it back. If I died and lost a level? Again, no big deal.. I'll get it back.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 232
    No point in making things overly complicated with debuffs and such.  Just make it a naked corpse recovery with experience loss. Make it so that at level 50 once you max out experience that you have to really be stupid and die a lot to lose the whole level. 
     Also either do a better job than EQ did about addressing game bugs that prevent you from getting your corpse or have the corpse after a certain amount of time be at graveyard with a significant experience loss like a half or so of a level if you want it back.
     The only time in EQ that I though I was going to lose a corpse was due to a game bug. It was a dungeon in velious that I had not been in for a month or so but apparently the dragon at the bottom of the thing remembered me because as soon as I zoned in he screamed my name and summoned me to him and of course killed me. As a result most of the rest of the mobs rushed the zone and killed the rest of my group.
      They then got bugged at the zone and you would actually die before you finished loading into the zone. The GM of course would not help. 
      DMKano old guild (Bots) actually helped me get the corpse although that was certainly not their intention.  It was sort of funny but the guild leader at the time came by with a couple of groups to go in. I tried to warn him but he was rude and I not repeat was he said. But anyway they went in and died of course. As they were what we called a zerg guild and apparently lots of them were online, they sent in 6 or so groups in the dungeon at once. I not sure if they cleared it or crashed the zone but anyway the mobs were gone and I got my corpse.
    Wellspringjpedrote52
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    edited May 2018
    Some alternate advancement system at cap is fine, and even have that AA system have loss if wanted, but I'm completely against losing base levels. Always have been and always will be.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    Losing the ability to wear your L50 gear because you deleveled to 49 means you need to carry around an extra set of gear.  Vote no on level loss.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Doubt there will be many, if any, hard level requirements on gear, so still voting yes on this imaginary poll.
    Wellspringjpedrote52


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Dullahan said:
    Doubt there will be many, if any, hard level requirements on gear, so still voting yes on this imaginary poll.
    Also, if it's like EQ1 classic, you didn't get any new spells at lvl 50. So if you deleveled to 49 you basically only lost some hp, mana, and AC stats. Basically just a debuff. 
    jpedrote52
    --------------------------------------------
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 483
    svann said:
    Losing the ability to wear your L50 gear because you deleveled to 49 means you need to carry around an extra set of gear.  Vote no on level loss.
    No level requirements on gear so no worries (at least in classic EQ). P99 makes it so you have to be at least level 46 to equip your epic but not sure if this was "classic" or not. Everything else will equip at any level. 
Sign In or Register to comment.