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Let's talk EXP debt death penalty, at max level.

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Comments

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Yea naked corpse run is enough penalty all by itself.  Then xp debt on top of it thats plenty.
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    I really hope Pantheon does not become EQNerf or EQLite.

    XP loss and potentially losing a level needs to be real. In EQ you didn't always lose a level if you died only if you were barley into your level but nonetheless you had to be careful as multiple deaths with little to no xp gain in between the deaths very well could de-level you. With no risk the rewards are not as sweet... 
    WellspringAmathe
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 680
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    Wellspring
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,431
    edited April 2018
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 


    Demogorgon

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 680
    edited April 2018
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    This has everything to do with putting fear back into these game worlds.  Right now, you die in an mmo you just shrug your shoulders and go oh well, I died.  This results in little to ZERO sense of danger in the world from ANYTHING, regardless if its PvP, or PvE.  Im talking from a PVE standpoint.  If you were to go take a character and run around WoW or any other current MMO in the last 10 years and compare it to if you were to run around in EQ or Vanguard, you'd have 2 entirely different experiences.. Why? Because EQ/Vanguard had a sense of danger not only from mobs but from dying also.  Right now, you die, you shrug your shoulders and go on your marry way.  There is ZERO sense of danger in the worlds now. That in itself is NOT fun.

    You're 100% wrong when you say it serves no purpose.  It means the world is a dangerous place.  With no penalty how things are currently, you can run around lolligagging around with no sense of danger. 

    If you want to start spouting words, I'd say you're just another instant gratification player wanting everything on a silver platter, QUICK else you cry foul.  Now thats just my opinion from what I've witnessed from your post.  I could be entirely wrong but you sound like you like how things are currently, zero sense of danger, zero fear of stuff in the game world, zero consequences for dying.  But I don't want to get into an argument or spouting match here.  I am here just to give my opinion on the topic at hand - Death Penalty and danger in the game world and that there is absolutely ZERO of it right now. +
    Demogorgon
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,808
    I want there to be a significant stat penalty that you have to work off on lower mobs. So, people don't die.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    edited April 2018
    I want the cleric that failed to heal me to take the penalty.
    (s)
    Post edited by svann on
    Gyva02KyleranTorvalAmathe
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,029
    Meh.  I've played games with death penalties and deleveling.  If you really want it to be risky include full loot death from the moment you hit the ground.  XP is just a minor inconvenience you can grind right back.  If the goal is meaningful, make it actually hurt.
    TorvalDemogorgon
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    A big part of EQs allure was the mystery. That could be where exactly monster can spawn, how to get to a place, or even whether something was even able to be killed. The reason why those things remained mysterious for so long was largely due to risk involved in the discovery process. When the risk element is removed, the magic dies.
    AmatheGyva02jimmywolfDemogorgonXodic


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,431
    svann said:
    I want the cleric that failed to heal me to take the penalty.
    (s)
    As a long time healer we internationally let people die, its an advanced, yet subtle form of griefing.

    ;)
    WellspringTorval

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,431
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Torval

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,454
    Kyleran said:
    svann said:
    I want the cleric that failed to heal me to take the penalty.
    (s)
    As a long time healer we internationally let people die, its an advanced, yet subtle form of griefing.

    ;)
    You could consider it one of the healer roles to show the guild and group the pecking order of survivability. Nothing says it more than who gets healed and rezzed first in any tight situation.
    Kyleran
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    Kyleran said:


    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 


    It's more than just punishing players, its about making things that are valuable risky to acquire. This in return is what gives items their worth. When things are easily obtained they have little to no worth and the same goes for acquiring levels. If its easy street and you can get all the way to max level in a week there's no value or achievement felt when you get it. If you have to struggle, grind and face possible de-leveling punishments on the way up it feels so much better once you actually do achieve it. 
    WellspringjimmywolfDemogorgonDullahan
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Umm, Full loot PvP != having to do a corpse retrieval. The latter is only an inconvenience, not a permanent loss of your stuff. 

    It is perfectly logical to like one and not the other. 
    Demogorgon
    --------------------------------------------
  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 285
    delevel and xp penalty never bother me, i felt it did add to the game an gave me a sense of pride in every level i earned, kept an advance beyond. 


    i hated no drop items outside raids,  quest items and gear should be trade able. let the players work out the items worth in farming/camping/buying said items. you want it to stay rare? make it lore tagged can only hold one of X item. 
    Wellspring



  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    edited April 2018
    jimmywolf said: you want it to stay rare? make it lore tagged can only hold one of X item. 
    In EQ you could hold more than one lore item on a corpse. Sometimes people would have corpses lined up and all of them had one of the lore items on the corpse. They'd sell said lore item then run back to a corpse then pick up another, kinda like a corpse bank for lores lol... Maybe in Pantheon they could make it to where this could not be possible and keep those lore items a little more scarce... 
    Wellspring
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 680
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    That's completely different...

    1 is able to be looted from players and other isn't.  Sorry bud but your argument is null. 
  • 1AD71AD7 Member UncommonPosts: 51

    Here is a quote from Joppa on May 2'nd 2017:

    "Loving the feedback everyone!

    As a general note, I just want to reiterate that our Death system is still under heavy consideration. We may move towards de-leveling in the near future (I'm not opposed to it). We may end up with a hybrid, where a certain amount of EXP debt is accumulated before an actual de-level. Or we may stick with a pure EXP-debt system.

    You can bank on us trying all 3 of these approaches, if not more, during Alpha and Beta testing before we make a final decision."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6068/live-stream-05-02-feedback/view/page/1

    Outside of permanent gear loss, de-leveling is the pinnacle of loss aversion when it comes to the death penalty, IMO.  I think it's imperative that death continues to feel meaningful at max level, otherwise you end up dangling the ultimate carrot for people to rush toward.  I have plenty of experience with debt systems and will admit that they are quite effective during the standard leveling phase.  Once you get to level cap, however, debt becomes trivial, and continues to remain so until the level cap is increased.  I think Brad hit the nail on the head when he said "Losing a level pretty much sucks."  This is exactly right, and losing a level should suck.  Unless some other aspect of the death penalty is being tweaked for max-level players (which we have heard nothing about) I am 100% convinced that the game needs de-leveling.

     

    Excerpt on Loss Aversion from Wolfshead:

     

    The Yin and Yang of Loss and Gain

    "In a classic MMO like EverQuest your character could go in two different directions. You could gain levels or lose levels. Yes, you could actually lose levels and players know this and it looms large in their minds. As a guide and as a player I have seen players caught in death loops when they had been bound in a certain location such as Freeport and guards continue to kill them when they re-spawn. A level 60 player could lose all of their levels from such a tragic mistake.

    EverQuest was truly unique because the more you advanced your character became the more you risked when you went out and adventured. This is because the higher you are in level mobs that produce experience are far more powerful and the result is players have a far greater chance of dying because of it. EverQuest had a rising trajectory of difficulty that created an increasingly more intense and gripping experience for the player.

    Both loss and gain are symbiotic and complementary design principles. Both feed off of each other. Both are meaningless without the other."

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    Wellspring
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    edited April 2018
    It seems to me that in a group centric game an overly harsh death penalty just punishes players for joining bad/weak groups.  This creates the mindset that "I never join pugs because you always get noobs that get you killed".  That is not good for a game because it pushes new players out.  There must be a balance.
    Mendel
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    svann said:
    It seems to me that in a group centric game an overly harsh death penalty punishes players for joining bad groups.  This enhances the mindset that "I never join pugs because you always get noobs", which in turn pushes new players out.  If people wont group with strangers then there is a problem.  There must be a balance.
    Nowadays if you draw a group member whose play is bad, then they just get a scarlet letter "N" for noob and are kicked from the group. Of course, they don't learn anything that way.

    In older games, if someone's play was poor, people were much more likely to help them. "Hold off on the nukes until the tank has a minute to build aggro." "Come closer or you will get adds."

    Hopefully Pantheon's players won't bring the worst of WoW culture to this game. If they do, it will be interesting to see whose customs and practices win out. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    I think the experience loss with possible level loss and corpse recovery like early EQ is fine. The only thing I would change is have a process where when its time for the corpse to time out for you to get your stuff back with a more severe experience loss. In EQ you would just lose all your stuff.
     No one should lose everything due to internet problems or a bugged out zone which prevents the corpse recovery as would happen in early EQ. 
     
     
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,431
    edited April 2018
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Umm, Full loot PvP != having to do a corpse retrieval. The latter is only an inconvenience, not a permanent loss of your stuff. 

    It is perfectly logical to like one and not the other. 
    If the game is truly hardcore there should be some significant possibility that recovering your corpse and gear even when killed in PVE may not necessarily happen.

    I recall in SB you dropped everything in your backpack, which anyone who came along could loot you, even if an npc is what killed you.

    L1 and 2 were similar,  die to a mop and you had a chance to drop a valuable piece of your gear, which again anyone could loot.

    This lead to some frantic if not near terrifying runs back hoping your item was still there.

    I once came across a very expensive A level weapon which had been plussed up quite high.

    I could not use it but would have made a bundle selling it, but its former owner showed up looking for it.

    I saw him searching for it in the distance so I asked what he was seeking and he confirmed it was the sword I found, and asked for it back.

    So I gave it to him with no argument.   He thanked me for my graciousness and tipped me a decent amount of adena, and went on his way.

    Now, that was a rewarding scenario for me, but quite honestly I could have done without all of the terror running back to find my gear, which I did lose on occasion.

    So back to my question,  how is it really different?

    Or are you saying you want "risk" and "challenge" to make the game more rewarding, but not really.....you don't really want to risk anything, just make it harder to recover.

    To me that's not more challenge,  just unnecessary hassle and of little interest. 

    Besides, players just find workarounds to "game" the system.

    In my Lineage 1 example, we had 100 slots in our backpacks, which routinely were filled with 95 inexpensive candles.

    Item drop chance was 1 in how many items you carried and wore, so with the above trick it really lowered the risk of dropping much of value.

    But see, that was just an annoyance,  and as I recall did not work in Lineage 2, of which I was greatful for, even if it increased the terror of dropping gear.

    Just do away with such nonsense, you want challenge, devs can amp up the encounters until they are nigh unbeatable, anything else is useless annoyance.....

    Well, unless I can loot it.....

    ;)


    Torvalcoretex666

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,528
    In my experience losing XP was just a pain in the ass. Losing valuable items that were really hard to reaquire is what hurt.

    If you want to generate fear... Have your better half jab you in the ass with a large pin every time you die.
    Kyleran

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,343
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The sting of death is a big part of what keeps the world mysterious and items rare and valuable. At every time the player should have to weigh the chance of dying and loss against potential gains. When you no longer have levels to lose, you can go anywhere and risk everything, essentially gaming the system, because there really is no risk.

    Experience and levels should be lost.
    This right here ^^^

    If you do not fear death than there's really no sense of danger.  Sense of danger is one major aspect that is missing in current MMO's, something both EQ and Vanguard HAD and sometimes scared the shit out of you.  Absolutely nothing to gear in these game worlds nowadays unfortunately.  Bring back harsh death penalties.  Both xp penalty and corpses.  Right now in 99% of the games, you die, whoopdeedoo, I lose some durability on my gear or what not.  We neeeeeeeeed to have that sense of danger. 
    So full loot PVP games must be your thing, I can recommend a few if you like.

    So many people talking in this thread about meaningful consequences for failure, you might think you wandered into the EVE forums or something.

    Punishing players excessively in PVE games serves no purpose, other thsn to be annoying. 



    Actually, no, I cant stand full loot PvP games.  

    Yet you are looking forward to a game where you drop all your gear dying to NPCs...

    Weird. 
    Umm, Full loot PvP != having to do a corpse retrieval. The latter is only an inconvenience, not a permanent loss of your stuff. 

    It is perfectly logical to like one and not the other. 
    If the game is truly hardcore there should be some significant possibility that recovering your corpse and gear even when killed in PVE may not necessarily happen.

    I recall in SB you dropped everything in your backpack, which anyone who came along could loot you, even if an npc is what killed you.

    L1 and 2 were similar,  die to a mop and you had a chance to drop a valuable piece of your gear, which again anyone could loot.

    This lead to some frantic if not near terrifying runs back hoping your item was still there.

    I once came across a very expensive A level weapon which had been plussed up quite high.

    I could not use it but would have made a bundle selling it, but its former owner showed up looking for it.

    I saw him searching for it in the distance so I asked what he was seeking and he confirmed it was the sword I found, and asked for it back.

    So I gave it to him with no argument.   He thanked me for my graciousness and tipped me a decent amount of adena, and went on his way.

    Now, that was a rewarding scenario for me, but quite honestly I could have done without all of the terror running back to find my gear, which I did lose on occasion.

    So back to my question,  how is it really different?

    Or are you saying you want "risk" and "challenge" to make the game more rewarding, but not really.....you don't really want to risk anything, just make it harder to recover.

    To me that's not more challenge,  just unnecessary hassle and of little interest. 

    Besides, players just find workarounds to "game" the system.

    In my Lineage 1 example, we had 100 slots in our backpacks, which routinely were filled with 95 inexpensive candles.

    Item drop chance was 1 in how many items you carried and wore, so with the above trick it really lowered the risk of dropping much of value.

    But see, that was just an annoyance,  and as I recall did not work in Lineage 2, of which I was greatful for, even if it increased the terror of dropping gear.

    Just do away with such nonsense, you want challenge, devs can amp up the encounters until they are nigh unbeatable, anything else is useless annoyance.....

    Well, unless I can loot it.....

    ;)


    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm sure you can understand the appeal, and why people prefer consequences, you just don't like it. I certainly understand your ideology, but there are so many games that fit that bill right now it would make no sense for Pantheon to go this route - especially considering who is involved with it. 

    To me, what you're suggesting with just ramping up the difficulty with no consequence makes for a really bland game. It would essentially be a low budget WoW, a game full of loot pinatas where the goal is to just beat on them until goodies fall out.

    When you said that excessive punishment in a PvE game is bad, you're right, by definition of course. Too much of anything is bad, just as not enough of anything is bad in the same context. Without bad there's no good, without up there's no down, and without negative consequence, reward doesn't exist.

    The one thing to consider, is a game like old EQ did not punish you. The game itself gave you enough rope to hang yourself, but it was your decision to go and find a tree. However, the ones that risked more, gained more in both gear and experience.
    DullahanGyva02
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,431
    I never played EQ1, but I did play Vanguard and I found the naked corpse running just annoying, especially when my corpse was camped by enemy faction players who just killed me relentlessly.

    Stupid mechanic....

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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