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Have Disney strike Star Wars Episode VIII from the official canon.
HellCaster
Member UncommonPosts: 234
See the petition here:
https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon
36k sigs so far; share this with others.
https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon
36k sigs so far; share this with others.
Playing: varies every day it seems.
Comments
Whilst I didn't enjoy the movie, I didn't enjoy it because it was badly written and averagely acted, not because of the underlying story.
So, whilst I would have preferred Luke to have become a proper teacher and return to the fight, I found his indifference interesting.
Whilst I would have preferred Rey to go through some proper training and become a proper Jedi, I find the notion of being in tune with the force without the context of Jedi/Sith influencing your thoughts to also be good (I like grey, rather than black and white).
I would have also preferred that the Rebels started getting some big wins and that we see them becoming a larger, organised society, controlling whole sections of the galaxy. However, their decimation is still interesting, I'm curious to see how the 30 or so survivors of the rebellion can rebound and take on an organisation that outclasses them in every meaningful way.
I just wish the movie hadn't had so many problems.
I'm really looking forward to where Episode 9 could take the story because of Episode 8.
Let's recap here.
1. Starkiller base was destroyed in Episode 7
2. Snoke died in Episode 8 and The First Order is now lead by an inexperienced boy.
3. The First order flagship and several other capital vessels were destroyed in Episode 8.
4. The entire resistance now fits on the Millenium Falcon.
Like The Empire Strikes Back, the prevailing theme of The Last Jedi was failure, and making mistakes that can be learned from. Unlike TESB, TLJ outlined failure on both sides. The First Order failed as much as The Resistance.
This opens up a scenario where the entire rest of the galaxy could be like "You know what, screw you two. You've been fighting forever and now you want us to pick one or the other of you? We're going to create a powerful 3rd party that's stronger than both of you!"
The implications of that could be huge. It's a very good setup for more trilogies to no longer have it be just the lightside vs. the darkside forever and ever and ever and introduce a bit more political nuances into the equation.
Now they're like "NOOOOOOO! Don't change anything about Star Wars!!!"
In order to move a story forward and have it be engaging there has to be surprises and change. I understand a lot of people love the original trilogy so much that they don't want any changes, but that doesn't make the new ones bad.
I think a lot of people also just prefer the expanded universe and are salty they nixed the whole thing but... I'm pretty chill with Palpatine not being resurrected, making luke his apprentice. Luke wielding a red lightsaber in his offhand or like... well... anything that happens in the EU for the most part.
There are definitely some people like who you describe. For them, Star Wars is episodes 4-6 and nothing else. If it doesn't fit with the themes and aesthetics of those 3 movies, they don't want to know.
Then there are those for whom Star Wars is a certain formula. If you look at all the movies released, they all follow the same basic formula - good versus evil with the occasional twist or setback - and they like that formula. That is Star Wars to them, which is why TLJ has gone down so badly, because it is the only movie that doesn't follow the formula and thus doesn't feel like Star Wars.
Then there are those for whom Star Wars is just a nice IP and they take it on a case by case basis. Whilst I love Star Wars, this is where I fit. With this approach, The Force Awakens was a good film but due to it's derivative nature it wasn't particularly exciting. But, if you fall into this camp, TLJ was terrible. Regardless of the direction of the story (which I'm fine with) the actual execution of the film was terrible! Just a truly awful story, badly written with some seriously sketchy acting. This is why I disliked TLJ. I don't care that they killed off everyone, it was just a badly written film as a standalone film, and even more badly written when you consider it is a sequel.
The acting was way better then anything in the prequels and they had some pretty witty stuff in there. I particularly enjoyed the part with:
Luke: "BUT THE SACRED TEXTS!"
Yoda: "Nothing do they contain that the girl Rey does not already have."
*Later shows the sacred jedi texts in a drawer on the Millenium Falcon*
I don't know. Really wasn't that bad. I've seen it 3 times so far and it actually gets better each time.
Snoke
An evil leader, powerful in the force who has clearly been around for a long time. The Force Awakens builds him up to be someone to be feared. TLJ just dumps him. Not only is he not intimidating when you meet him, you never learn his backstory, you never learn how he managed to corrupt Ben, you never learn how he established / took over the first order.
That is a massive missed opportunity and bad writing.
Snoke vs Ben
Snoke is very clearly powerful with the force. He was able to connect Ben and Rey's minds using the force. He was deeply attuned to Ben's thinking which is why he kept challenging Ben. But, somehow, Ben was able to turn a lightsaber and kill Snoke without Snoke noticing, despite the fact that the lightsaber was in Snokes line of sight and Snoke was connected to Ben at the time! Bad writing.
The pursuit of the fleet
Pretty much the entire movie, the rebel fleet is being pursued by the first order. But, somehow, the first order is just out of range. And, somehow, every ship in the fleet moves at the same speed.....except the ones that move faster to transport people between ships. And somehow the first order doesn't just jump some more ships in front of the rebels, because blocking them would be stupid....oh, and apparently only one ship in the first order is capable of tracking the rebels. And apparently none of the ships in the first order are capable of automatically detecting transport ships, despite the fact they're right in front of them and they are trying to kill the rebels.
Really, truly terrible writing.
Finns and Rose's Adventure
This was completely and utterly superfluous to the movie. It served no purpose, didn't alter the story one bit. Finn and Rose may well have not been in the movie, because they didn't alter it's course at all. They failed at everything they did. It really felt like they were only there to attempt some social justice nonsense and to distract audiences from the stupid pursuit of the rebel fleet.
This, again, shows bad writing.
Reys Training
If they'd have stuck with something more traditional, it would have won more support and pleased the audiences more. But, I'm fine with them going non-traditional, but the execution was poor. First, Rey wasn't there very long. Second, Luke didn't actually train her, he had cut himself off from the force and just gave her a few short bits of advice. Third, her thing in the darkside place didn't seem to mean anything, it felt like just an excuse to try out some cinematography. Fourth, the porgs were a blantant excuse for creating a childrens toy to sell.
The whole training of Rey just felt like a massive missed opportunity again. It could have been amazing, but instead it was very mediocre due to poor writing.
Leia In Space
This scene was just absurd from every possible angle. Whether you look at it from a physics angle (she'd have been dead too quickly), a force angle, the lack of an airlock to get her back into safety, or just the more common sense angle that she was dead in real life and this was the perfect opportunity to kill her off gracefully in the film, this scene just sucked balls.
I could go on and on. The film was a great visual spectacle, and the overarching story was fine, but the actual details of the film sucked. Rian Johnson seriously screwed the pooch with this film. He lacked the attention to detail required for a film of this size
An evil leader, powerful in the force who has clearly been around for a long time. The Force Awakens builds him up to be someone to be feared. TLJ just dumps him. Not only is he not intimidating when you meet him, you never learn his backstory, you never learn how he managed to corrupt Ben, you never learn how he established / took over the first order.
That is a massive missed opportunity and bad writing."
Not relying on any material from the prequels, and any material outside the movies, tell me everything you know about Palpatine, how he corrupted Vader, and how he established and took over The Empire. I'm sure we'll learn about Snoke eventually and it probably won't take us as long as it took to learn about Palpatine's backstory.
Now the getting killed in the 2nd film part was a change. It certainly pulled a bait and switch on the audience. Shocking audiences and do something completely unexpected can sometimes be a very good storytelling device. I think saying it was a bad one is very premature before we see what they're able to do in Episode 9 because of that.
"Snoke vs Ben
Snoke is very clearly powerful with the force. He was able to connect Ben and Rey's minds using the force. He was deeply attuned to Ben's thinking which is why he kept challenging Ben. But, somehow, Ben was able to turn a lightsaber and kill Snoke without Snoke noticing, despite the fact that the lightsaber was in Snokes line of sight and Snoke was connected to Ben at the time! Bad writing."
Ben used Snoke's arrogance against him. Snoke was not watching for that attack because he was reading Ben's mind, as that part of the movie very clearly conveyed by having him narrate Ben's every move. To say that a powerful figure cannot be blinded by their own arrogance seems to be a major denial of human nature and reality. It was clever, believable, and I enjoyed it.
"The pursuit of the fleet
Pretty much the entire movie, the rebel fleet is being pursued by the first order. But, somehow, the first order is just out of range. And, somehow, every ship in the fleet moves at the same speed.....except the ones that move faster to transport people between ships. And somehow the first order doesn't just jump some more ships in front of the rebels, because blocking them would be stupid....oh, and apparently only one ship in the first order is capable of tracking the rebels. And apparently none of the ships in the first order are capable of automatically detecting transport ships, despite the fact they're right in front of them and they are trying to kill the rebels.
Really, truly terrible writing."
Seems pretty petty to me TBH. Plenty of things in the orignals that require just as much suspension of disbelief.
(Some of those are pretty humorous and nonsensical but the Deathstar being jumped in at the wrong coordinates one and the trash compactor one have equal merits to the complaints you bring up here.)
"Finns and Rose's Adventure
This was completely and utterly superfluous to the movie. It served no purpose, didn't alter the story one bit. Finn and Rose may well have not been in the movie, because they didn't alter it's course at all. They failed at everything they did. It really felt like they were only there to attempt some social justice nonsense and to distract audiences from the stupid pursuit of the rebel fleet.
This, again, shows bad writing."
No purpose except character growth. Poe is humbled by his failure and as a result he shows growth by the end of the movie (calling off the hopeless speeder attack). Without the Rose / Poe arc he would not have had the thing that gave him the confidence to rebel against Hold (A backup plan) and would not have overthrown her, and therefore not have been humbled. Poe and Rose's growth was not as remarkable but it was there. Particularly the fact that Poe ended up almost sacrificing himself to beat the First Order toward the end of the film. That's a major leap forward in the heroism of his character that was probably prompted by the experiences of their side mission. Rose really just kind of grew from a no-name into a somebody.
"Reys Training
If they'd have stuck with something more traditional, it would have won more support and pleased the audiences more. But, I'm fine with them going non-traditional, but the execution was poor. First, Rey wasn't there very long. Second, Luke didn't actually train her, he had cut himself off from the force and just gave her a few short bits of advice. Third, her thing in the darkside place didn't seem to mean anything, it felt like just an excuse to try out some cinematography. Fourth, the porgs were a blantant excuse for creating a childrens toy to sell.
The whole training of Rey just felt like a massive missed opportunity again. It could have been amazing, but instead it was very mediocre due to poor writing."
The Rey/Luke arc was my least favorite. The visions of Kylo were certainly important and drove the story forward but I felt like their portrayal of Luke did seem a bit off and would agree that Rey didn't accomplish much there other than convincing Luke to do his last stand (Which was clever and awesome. Love to see the good guys use some dirty tricks instead of making every hero some idiot always blathering on about "honor".) and stealing the jedi texts. Doesn't make the entire movie bad.
"Leia In Space
This scene was just absurd from every possible angle. Whether you look at it from a physics angle (she'd have been dead too quickly), a force angle, the lack of an airlock to get her back into safety, or just the more common sense angle that she was dead in real life and this was the perfect opportunity to kill her off gracefully in the film, this scene just sucked balls."
No less absurd than her getting out and walking around in an asteroid in The Empire Strikes back with nothing other than a breathing mask. It would have been a good place to cut her character IF the filming wasn't already nearly done by the time she died. Cutting her character out at that point would have meant refilming the entire rest of the movie and I'm sure that would have prompted a lot of tears as well once the associated delays were announced.
I will say it was my least favorite moment of the entire movie. I will also say it wasn't near enough to ruin the movie for me.
_____________
I don't know. Most of the TLJ criticism to me reeks of people looking for fault and wanting a reason to find it bad. I get that Holdo and the animal abuse theme rubbed people the wrong way too but I'm a conservative, engaged to a conservative, who went to see this with my conservative brother and all three of us managed to like it still.
But, every movie prior to TLJ makes up for these holes by being overall good movies. Solid story lines, good progression, good overall themes, excellent special effects.
TLJ was basically nothing but holes. It had two things going for it: special effects and creating a blank slate for the next movie. Thats it.
I'm also not deliberately trying to find fault with the movie. I'm a big star wars fan and have enjoyed all the previous movies. Without exception, every single previous movie I've seen for the first time, I've walked out of the cinema with a massive grin on my face having loved every minute of it. It is generally only through repeat viewing that I start to spot the problems.
With TLJ, that didn't happen. I had managed to avoid all spoilers so I knew nothing about it going in. My cinema did a double bill, so I watched The Force Awakens right before TLJ at midnight. I walked out of the cinema (I also watched it with my brother) and both of us were speechless for a few minutes. I think my first word to describe the film was "confused". I desperately wanted to like it, but I didn't. Every single scene in the film had glaring problems in terms of writing. I can accept a few problems here and there, no-one is perfect, but every scene? So, even as a stand-alone film I couldn't enjoy it. In the context of the Star Wars saga, I really couldn't enjoy it at all.
Now that it's out on blu-ray, I have bought it and rewatched it. Some of the problems weren't as bad as I remembered them. For example, ghost-yoda summoning the lightening, in my mind I'd remembered it as a much larger storm and longer scene, but in reality it was much more flippant and over very quickly (the escalation in force powers in this movie is still ridiculous though). Other problems got worse with a second viewing, such as Finn and Rose making their escape on the back of those creatures, all interactions between Poe and Holdo, and everything that happened on the final planet, Crait.
I find it repulsive the way most forms of media have these stainless heros with ridiculous codes of honor that in reality would make them far less effective but then the story writers just make them so amazing they overcome every challenge anyway.
One of my friends while criticizing the Crait scene where Luke comes out as a ghost literally said "You could make them just not fire on him with the AT-ATs." Oh, so make the enemies dumber so the hero can win. Classic mentality of people who like lawful-stupid heros.
Like I said the Luke arc up until that point was my least favorite arc, but on Crait he really redeemed himself to me by fighting clever and dirty.
But, Chewie and Rey managing to get every single tie fighter to follow them, then magically lose/kill all of them and have none of them return to the site of the action......whilst also leaving loads of time for the Falcon to find a place to land, stay hidden whilst the rebels escape.....and then somehow escape Crait despite a massive First Order fleet being stationed right above them.
Nope. Too ridiculous. My mind simply cannot accept that level of stupidity as possible. The amount of technology the First Order has at their finger tips vs the old fashioned falcon? That entire planet would be under constant surveillance from the minute the first order knew the rebels were heading down there. The tie fighters that chased after the falcon would have returned to the action after losing it. Not every tie fighter would have chased the falcon, thats just bad tactics. The AT-ATs would have been able to see the falcon coming in to land, unless it landed miles away in which case the First Order would have been able to catch up with the rebels on foot, as the rebels only had a 5 minute head start. Not to mention, whilst the front door of the base was indeed "difficult" to penetrate, the rest of the base just seemed to be underground and the First Order had enough ships in space to bombard the shit out that place. Maybe the door would have been left standing, but not much else!
I know a lot of this sounds really petty, and each thing taken by itself is indeed petty. But they all add up, resulting in a disappointing experience. To use an MMO analogy, TLJ is a bit like Wildstar: nothing overly wrong, but something wrong with every single part of it, resulting in death by 1000 cuts.
A KOTOR era ship is a match for a prequel era ship, which is a match for a galactic empire era ship, which is a match for a First order ship.
Kind of like how a Roman soldier under Julius Caesar would probably actually have an advantage of a late Western Roman soldier and even likely be a fair match for many of the soldiers from the middle ages. Human history while following a trend of technological advancement over time has not had a straight path of better, and better, and better technology with each generation until relatively recently.
So translated in Star Wars that means technology has been capped for thousands of years for the most part other than apparently the recent invention of something that can track a ship through lightspeed.
As for the Falcon, it's one of the fastest ships ever. Kylo Ren is Han's son, so of course that ship gets him triggered. Chewie has been piloting for a very long time and Rey is strong in the force.
It all makes plenty of sense to me how they could kill a bunch of tie fighters and then escape from a fleet that just got majorly screwed up in a ship far smaller and faster than the ones which could not escape.
I mean killing a bunch of tie's in the Falcon happens while Luke is still untrained in A New Hope. If we're going to say the Falcon killing a bunch of fighters is improbable then we have to conclude that Luke is a Mary Sue.
EDIT:
In TFA Rey incredulously explains "This is the ship that made the Kessel run in 14 parsecs?!"
To which Han replies "Twelve!"
That supports the theory that tech has not advanced far between the original trilogy and the new trilogy. Otherwise we could expect that feat to be non-impressive. Especially if it was only "14 parsecs"