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Camelot Unchained - Fight the Power! - MMORPG.com
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Camelot Unchained - Fight the Power! - MMORPG.com
Chasing power retains players but what happens when a game like Camelot Unchained removes the automatic arms race from the leveling experience? What happens when our idea of power evolves?
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I made a video about the progression system here:
Phew, and I thought any imbalance in the presence of women in politics and business was down to a bias due to inequality ? So really they don't care about power, so they can't be bothered to have a powerful career. Thanks for clearing that one up.
I really love leveling and skill acquisition but never liked "getting gear". It always becomes too much of a pain in the ass.
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I am hoping all the MMOs you write on are a success, but I am just not sure we have that many players who want to play these sort of MMOs and they will get split between them, dwindling the playerbase.
I was intrigued by the title and read the article to inform myself on what kind of power we are fighting. Disregarding the bias towards women players, I have to say to the author that the majority of the mmorpg players that find escapism in mmorpgs don't do it though some kind of power trip.
What most of us are lacking in our everyday lives is not power. It's control. That's what a game provides, the ultimate control of the in-game avatar. From the weakest starting character, to the most powerful end game one.
DAoC had a pretty good loot system. People made "templates" which varied greatly from between different classes and allowed for personal customization between the same classes to fit individual play styles and races... solo vs group, offense vs defense, combinations of RNG gear, elite drops, legendaries, class sets and player crafted all having different proc rates and abilities.
I don't think removing a meaningful level progression and a diverse loot system will make a game better. In fact, I think dismissing character progression and a diverse loot system detracts from the immersion and depth of a game and takes away a persons attachment to a character they put effort into. While I like the idea of Camelot Unchained using a daily realm focused progression system, I think it should be used in conjunction with individual character progression.
As pointed out in the current thread on these here forums CU, Crowfall and Star Citizen are all bucking the long standing tradition with a more horizontal progression model.
Interestingly enough, I feel these 3 titles have a greater chance of drawing a broader audience, but only time will tell.
Come join the conversation, even if Tim totally ignored it, theres some great thoughts being debated. (By other people, not me certainly)
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/473032/the-case-for-mmos-with-little-to-no-stat-gap#latest
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First Star Citizen does not have that formula. there are no levels, skills or action buttons. Its a FPS with Flight/Space sim.
Crowfall on the other hand looks to be an annoying pvpfest.
IMHO the reason we see such crazy power discrepancies in games is due to PvE. To make the challenge worthy, developers need to dramatically increase HP and damage of the mobs (and bosses!!). Since this game will be PvP focused there is no need to have millions of HP or spells that do hundreds of thousands of points of damage. A great hero might be able to take on 2... or maybe even 3 weaker opponents but could also be felled by a lucky blow 1-1.
That’s what I am looking for.
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The classic design for progression/power is IMO probably the main reason why MMORPG's have dropped in popularity and games like PUBG + Moba + FPS are now the new thing. An MMORPG obviously needs some type of meaningful progression otherwise it would just be a moba w/world and I think CU may just get it right. That old formula of starting weak, becoming stronger then maxing out power has been done by everyone most likely many times for the past decade+. Games like WoW and almost every other I can think of have power as a requirement to experience parts of the game while creating the longest road possible to reach that point just to make more money while relying on the rabid defense/adoration of their fans to excuse their almost criminal business practices.
I think your example of UO is close but exaggerated by a factor of about 5. Grandmasters could still oneshot newbs with little difficulty. If the newbs had 50-60 in the right resists then maybe 4-5 of them could take down a gm that had any clue what he was doing. It was still much less of a gap than say WOW, but not quite as little a gap as you mentioned.
As far as Camelot, I don't mind if they are reducing that gap, but there should still be noticeable progression or ya, people will get bored.
Do you remember GW1 where everyone was more or less equalized for PVP matches? Knowledgeable players were always one step ahead of the balancing devs creating dominant group compositions.
I guess there's something to be said for having a greater admiration for the wily vets who think the game better than for the grinders who just got there first.
But I guess lowering the level/gear impact is a good thing in the grand scheme since those games also additionally have the same wily vets using their experience to have more power.
But I do feel for the meek. It's easier for them when the path to greatness is all laid out for them. The meek always get screwed and all they have to look forward to is armageddon
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The whole idea of a mmropg is to deliver the entire role playing experience not just a place to pvp.
This topic can go into much detail would take forever to explain all the ins and outs.
A main issue is that if players are basically the same a year later,then those long standing players will be striving towards NOTHING and will get bored very fast.
I seriously believe when devs aim for this structure they simply don't have the team to make a HQ mmorpg and just aim very small.
In all my years and trying just about every mmorpg,the BEST way i have ever seen is like FXI,SUB CLASS system,NOT alts,NOT limiting gear or abilities but ENHANCING them the more classes you skill up.
To even mention EVE is a total turnoff for me,that design is total garbage,i would fire my production team if they came to me with that idea.I like people who think big and creative ,NOT cheesy cheap ideas like learning skills for no reason or offline nonsense.
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Definitely this... while 'progression' is good, power is relative, and I don't think any game highlights this better than FFXIV where every 6-8 months a new tier of gear comes out and all the numbers go up, but it doesn't actually make you feel any more powerful because, well, everyone else’s numbers just went up too (and perhaps more importantly it doesn't change the gameplay) (i.e. 100,000,000 / 10,000,000 = 100 / 10 = 10)
Because progression does NOT have to mean HP / 'damage' going up 10000x, or even 10x, between level 1 and 100.
Access to new skills, small stat increases, gear (and access to gear) that gives small bonuses; all of these things (and more) can be long term progression and give an advantage (which IMO is not a bad thing) to a veteran player without making them unbeatable by a new player.
Think of it like real life... you could spend decades becoming the greatest fighter in world, undefeated in any challenge, but you still need to duck when someone swings an axe at your head.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I will rely on the likes of yourself to wake me up when they soft launch or even 'gods of gaming' forbid launch!
It was you who brought up the fact that they are not all the same in gameplay, that's a reasonable argument that there won't be population clash problems, but not sure it will pan out that way. To me the best defence is very separated launch dates but that's a bit of a pipe dream.
I also think it is something of a misconception to believe that a brand new player can come in to these kinds of games and perform at the same level as a vet just because gear/stat power is normalized.
These games usually have quite complex mechanics that go far beyond a shooter or moba. Things like a deep understanding of the game mechanics, access to more resources, knowledge of the map/terrain, and ability to work in groups provide a massive advantage and is something that takes time to develop.
Pvp games with large gear/stat gaps just become ridiculous as you can see below:
So yes, you need to be competitive from the start and not face a huge grind to stay that way. They got it right this time.