Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Change is Good, Right? RIGHT? Iterative Process Explored in New Post - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Change is Good, Right? RIGHT? Iterative Process Explored in New Post - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com
Saga of Lucimia News - In the latest Mondays in MMORPGs on the Saga of Lucimia site, the team takes a look at the iterative process in games. While iteration is needed for the health and longevity of any MMO, players balk at needed and necessary changes and often don't see behind the curtain about why things move along as they do. The post details player perceptions that change means "the design of a game = not the same game that was discussed or [was] 'advertised' by the company".
Comments
Once a company sells their product (whether it is on KickStarter, Steam early access, or whatever), I think they have a duty to honor their word. If they're no longer able to deliver on their promises, or decide to make changes, that's fine too, BUT you must be willing to offer refunds.
An MMORPG, on the other hand, is an ever-evolving process. Expansions change things. Players doing things that weren't intended, and thus wreaking havoc to the balance of gameplay, change things. There are a hundred/thousand/million things that affect the balance and evolution of an MMORPG, and as such, it's an ever-evolving project that is in a continual state of flux.
Everyone *should* understand that when they pick up an MMO to play. In fact, it's actually in many company's TOS (that things are always changing and nothing is set in stone).
To quote myself in the post:
"At the end of the day little things like your child changing his favorite color from black to green, your spouse changing their hairstyle or color, deciding to change from a pickup truck to a sedan, choosing a bicycle for the first 10 years of your adulthood and then graduating to a motorcycle…none of these things really affect who you are as an individual. They are simply iterations in the cycle of life.
The same can be said for an MMORPG. The iterations that happen between the original concept, early design meetings, the development cycle, launch, post-launch, expansions, and beyond, are just the cycle of life for an MMO. Just as much as you can’t call your husband/wife a liar for changing their hair style five years after you got married (they are still the same person), you can’t call a developer a liar for changing things along the way, regardless if it’s during the development cycle of the first iteration of the live game, or post-launch."
Changes after launch and expansions are all part of the process and I agree are fundamental to the success of any MMORPG.
The difference between the two though, if you buy a game after launch, players have a chance to know what they're getting themselves into, as the core game is unlikely to change drastically. If you don't like the new expansion coming out for WOW then you're able to unsubscribe. If WOW said a specific race was going to be in the next expansion, so you pre-ordered, but it turns out they lied -- you have every right to a refund IMO. Many launched games also offer a free trial or limited refunds if your PC doesn't meet the system requirements.
On the other hand, prior to launch you don't know anything about the game except what the dev studio tells you.
When developers ask for KS money and make promises, they need to be held accountable. If they were open and said, "hey, we are making this game, which anything we say may change completely, and our release date could be 20+ years from now, but we want your money so we can build our dream MMO" then that's the contract they set.
The issue is when developers say "We're targeting a release date of Dec 2017. We know it's ambitious, but we have been working on this project for 10+ years, and we have secrets that will speed up our development timeline that you don't know about. Trust us, hitting that release date should be the least of your concerns." Then a year later they say oh, actually we're not going to be done until at least 2019 at the earliest -- that's when I have a major problem.
Point being, when it comes to crowdfunding, the devs set the terms. They can choose to be blatantly honest and risk their game not funding. Or they can sugar coat everything and promise the moon, guaranteeing that their game fully funds, but turn out to be liars in the process. Where's the accountability in that?
Something core to the game is what you use to explain the game to someone (Read: Buyers). If you can't explain it like that anymore, then that's a big change in the scope and no longer what you paid for.
Especially if most of the game isn't made yet.
Developers ask for money and then once they get it they develop and over time they see certain things don't work so they cut/change them.
Then the players go nuts because they gave money for something else.
Sort of like publishers who back a game and want to make an investment but then see the developers taking the game in a different direction where they might not make their money back.
I certainly hope some players see the irony.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Even with 15 years of experience under my belt working on over 700 million dollar's worth of projects via the family business back in my construction days, one thing I learned over the years is that all you can ever really do is give an estimate of job completion. Exact dates are extremely difficult to pinpoint, and you never, ever want to commit to an exact date of completion, but rather a ballpark figure.
A great example is a large-scale project like building an airport. There are 200-300 people who work on these projects, with crews spread around electricians, plumbers, flooring, roofing, HVAC, etc. Let's say the eletricians have a problem with their supplier and their delivery is delayed by a week, so they can't get the work done they were supposed to get done by X date. Now the general contractor has to shuffle crews around to work around this delay, and in some cases not all of the crews are going to be able to accommodate due to conflicting schedules on other projects or other areas of the job, and that week-long delay could turn into three weeks, or six weeks, or whatever. By the time he's done rearranging schedules for the other 300 people on the project, the end date can change drastically.
That's just the reality of project management on a large-scale project. It's not as simple as setting a date four years out from now and saying "that's our publication date", and then hitting it with exactness.
I'm one of those patient people who is more than happy to wait two, three, four years, however long it takes for a developer to realize their final vision for a game. It's just a video game. It's not a life-threatening disease or a job offer or something that has an expiration date on it that somehow affects me on a personal level.
But I'm also on the other side of the fence as a developer, and realize the fallacy of giving exact dates for things. You never know what could crop up, the things that can change delivery dates. A good example of this is our upcoming Early Access 10. We wanted it out in March, but Robert + Richard (our two lead programmers) have all ended up moving homes during the March + April time frame, which has pushed our EA 10 back.
That's life.
Our timeline for graphical effects has also been pushed back, due to the fact we haven't been able to find a qualified FX person to come work with us. And it's not been for a lack of resumes; we just haven't found someone who really fits the bill. So as much as we want to have all these really cool special effects in, it's not as simple as picking someone from a stack of resumes. It has to be the right person for the job, just as much as we waited until we found @Elloa
because she was the perfect fit for our community manager, as opposed to just going with the first resume that popped up.
There are an infinite number of things that go into development of any large-scale project, not just gaming, and it is never as simple as "here's a publication date".
Kickstarter simply exposed this reality (early iterations/things changing/evolving/etc.) to customers, and many who are accustomed to only ever seeing the finished product haven't quite adjusted yet.
I would liek to reverse that statement and state that the developers are the ones who can't see deep enough into the design they are suppose to be making and usually end up something CHEAP,LAZY and often tons of ideas that make NO SENSE.Oh and do i need mention copy cat,i mean geesh gaming in general is bandwagon jumping every month.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Crowdfunding has allowed the dev team to get paid upfront for a job to be completed years later, and they don't have to follow their own blueprint?
No one is forcing the dev studio make any promises. They set their own blueprint. If they can't give an accurate release date, then simply don't give one.
Or at least say it in an accurate manor, such as, "If all of the stars align and development goes perfectly according to our vision with 0 delays, then our earliest projected launch date is Dec. 2017. If anything doesn't go according to plan, then it will be much later".
Dev studios don't have to go the crowdfunding route. It's a business choice. If they don't want to be held accountable to their own words, then they can self-fund.
Meanwhile, I'm 40 bucks into dozens of in-development games and none the worse for my spending. Things will finish when they finish, and meanwhile I've got dozens of other games I'm playing in the meantime.
As Kano pointed out, people are used to paying for something and getting something for it. Crowdfunding is not exactly that. One is essentially funding a project that on paper looks good to them. But too many people can't wrap their heads around that.
And then the crying starts.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
From a publisher, you can't put money towards the product until a point where it is going to come out. At this point, you know what you're buying.
From a Kickstarter, you put in money so early it's essentially from a point of faith and it's a gamble if you'll ever see anything from it.
From a publisher, there's the contract for consumer protection.
From a Kickstarter, there's the Kickstarter ToS...
Is it as simple as saying "Don't invest in crowdfunds if you don't want to gamble", yet people seem to think crowdfunded games are the way forward. How do we, as the consumers, deal with this?
I'm a skeptic on crowdfunding, I'll admit that. But it seems like the Consumers are the ones being screwed by this method with little return. Maybe it is a case of the bad ones ruining it for others, but it is happening, so we need a solution?
It's not about "exact" publication dates. It's being hard-lined on honesty.
The issue with KS today, is dev studios are promising things to their backers (whether it's release dates, specific game engines, features, etc.), then later -- after they fail to deliver -- they claim "oh, these were charitable donations. We have no obligation to fulfill our word b/c we used KS and you should have known better".
My point is just because you use a crowdfunding platform, it should not give you free reign to make a bunch of promises during your campaign and not have to deliver on any of them.
If a dev studio says during KS, "we ARE going to have X in our game at launch", and if they don't have that feature at launch, what are you saying should be the consequences? Nothing?
Dev studios should have the integrity to stand by their word. The guise of KickStarter should not give them blanket protection for lying.
I understand things change in development. If you go the crowdfunding route, and you fail to fulfill a PROMISE, you should at least have the honor to make it right. Not only is it the right thing to do, but it's good business.
You are not paying for a thing, you are funding a project. Those projects change all the time.
THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD NOT BE GIVING TO KICKSTARTER!
If you don't understand what you are giving money to then you should not do it.
I write and compose (among other things). I (sadly and hopefully for the better) change the parts of my work all the time. I've removed characters, changed instrumentation, changed the scope of projects because while working on them I realized it had to change.
That's what creative work is about.
But people seem to turn off their brains and think (in this case) they are buying games with x features when they are really funding a project that is "aiming" to include these features.
This is not to say that every developer is responsible or great at what they do or great at project management.
But you can't complain about something that never was what you think it was.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, you're funding a project, but under specific conditions set by the dev studio.
If the example studio had said "aiming", then sure there is no guarantees, but sadly that is typically not how these things are presented during crowdfunding.
However, with development it's just a bit different than buying a final product.
At the time they make their pitch, they fully intend on including "x". Then, over time things change and they realize "x" really needs to be "y" or "x" needs to change because of "z".
This is just reality. It reminds me of little kids screaming "YOU PROMISED".
I'm pretty sure that a good many parents made promises only to realize those promises had to be altered.
In the end a dose of "let the buyer beware" is in order.
What they "should" do is make their pitch but include a disclaimer that any portion of the game/design might change over the course of development.
If they don't include that then that is negligent on the developers part. It still doesn't let the buyer off the hook.
Do your research, know what you are getting into, always be willing to accept "worse case scenario" and if one can't then don't give money.
Players are not excused from being adults/responsible for their money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And yes, with any crowdfunded game, there's always the risk that the developers will be negligent and run off with everyone's money. So definitely don't make a gamble you aren't willing to lose. Because it is a gamble.
At the same time, it doesn't mean we as gamers have to find it acceptable when a company deceives it's backers. Or think of it as a "GOOD" thing, as the article implies.
What it does say is that certain players need to understand the fact that in-development games change over the course of the years they are in development, that nothing is set in stone, that even post-launch an MMORPG can change, and people should treat those iterative processes and evolutionary changes like they do their spouse changing their hair style or color.
A design concept changing over time is not deceitful; it's the same thing as your spouse saying "I want to grow my hair out".
Still the same spouse. Just a slightly different look.
The point I've been to make, is if something IS presented to backers as being set in stone, it needs to either be delivered as promised or other agreeable arrangements need to be made (such as refunds for example). To do other wise, is unacceptable business practices IMO.
The best thing for possible backers (at this point as this isn't new, we know the pitfalls) is to always assume that everything is subject to change.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm a gamer. I love playing games. All games.
I also understand that crowdfunded games are subject to change between my time of backing and the time of publiation. That's a given; developers don't have to specifically state it to me, as I fully understand that I'm backing an idea for a game, not an actual, finished product. And ideas will absolutely change over time, and should, as more data is plugged into the equations.
I also know that MMORPGs change over time, so I'm never upset when a game like EQ2 changes combat, or EQ1 added AA, or when LOTRO went F2P (I was a wee bit sad about that one, but upset? Not in the least. Still a great game that I enjoy playing).
The companies want this to be the way forward...it takes all risk away from them financially..... As a consumer though, I do not like it....i want to know what I am getting for my money and promises from devs don't give me that.
Say you bought one of their $1,000 pledge packages based on that crowdfunding promise. If a year later, Renfail were to announce they will have only PvP servers (much like their April fools video), what then? You're now stuck with a game that has changed so much from what was advertised. Everyone would find that acceptable?