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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Hmm, interesting. :)

    Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

    Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

    Snipehunter said:

    The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, more so than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.

    Nothing in our systems says you can't master bladesmithing and push your woodworking and general metalworking high enough to produce good guards, blades, hilts, and pommels, for example. On the other hand, the time it takes to produce all of these, as well as the various pins, adhesives, and other fixtures means that you're going to be spending a while to produce a single sword. Just forging the blade may take a few minutes, but that's compounded in nearly equal allotments for the major elements of the weapons and all of the minor materials that are part of the process also take, collectively, a few minutes to make as well. Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.

    It could very well be that your product's quality and the particular properties you impart as part of your use of techniques make that effort worth it - people could very well seek out your weapons. But if you're not as well known, and the blacksmith next door can knock out a decent sword in 1/5th the time because all she has to do is forge the blade from an existing billet and assemble the pieces she picked up at the market, that quality -- and that labor -- that you invested might go to waste. You may not be competitive.

    Which is actually much closer to the point. Our goals here are to support the connected economy while leaving the tactical choices of plying your trade up to you. There's a demand for everything every trade can produce, which will support a wide network of tradesfolk across a broad spectrum of skills in the pursuit of their own economic niches, but which niches you pursue and your strategy for doing so is up to you.

    As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale. Barring some rare exceptions, such as stepping into the young heir of a smith, you won't be forging swords on day one. Though, if you had a recipe and knew the techniques, you technically could try.

    Hope that helps! :)

    DleatherusAnOldFart
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378

    Posted By Malais

    In short how will the system compensate for a region or perhaps an entire kingdom in which there are thousands of swordsmiths but no one who can make hilts? My MMO sense tells me cross skills would be the answer. Perhaps a woodworker who specializes in bows could use their skill to make a wooden hilt for the local blacksmith. Is the system really as interconnected as to allow 3-4 end use crafters to be able to trade lower tier components between them allowing for each to have access to the raw components they each need?

    Snipehunter Said:

    That is absolutely the intent. Most handles, for example, aren't made of metal. They're leather, or wood, or some mixture of the two. A leatherworker making, for example, belts still needs metal fixtures (rivets, buckles, etc.) from a metal worker. A fletcher needs metal arrowheads, and so on. Of course, making those components usually isn't the be all end all of the related skillset, so it's also possible to learn how to do them yourself, but that will take time and effort, so it becomes a strategic choice as much as it is a requirement of the end product.

    Hope that helps! :)


    Posted By Logain 

    I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

    Snipehunter Said:

    It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.

    Hope that helps! :)

  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 552
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    AnOldFart said:
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
    Woah, they aren't ready to answer those hard questions yet.

    Give them another couple of years and then you can ask
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    i would imagine it would depend upon the quality of the sword

    the higher the quality of the overall sword, the less likely (though not impossible) to find a swordsmith that was skilled at a grandmaster level in every aspect of its creation

    a r/l friend of mine (sadly passed on now) made a small fortune engraving custom weapons (mainly swords and guns) because the makers of those weapons, though master craftsmen in their own rights, lacked the skill to add the finishing touches
  • TekkonTekkon Member UncommonPosts: 27
    AnOldFart said:
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)

    You're dependant on other players. Someone to provide ore/metal parts, possibly someone else to transport those. If you want leather to wrap the handle then there's different ways to handle it; you don't have to go look for it yourself but it's an option. Another option is to hire someone to go and get some. If quality is of consequence, this is suddenly a player made quest. If the sword you're making is a custom job, for a specific customer, they could supply the leather themself.
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 552
    OrangeBoy said:
    AnOldFart said:
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
    Woah, they aren't ready to answer those hard questions yet.

    Give them another couple of years and then you can ask
    Seriously why do you bother?
    I asked a genuine question please don't troll with silly comments.

    Thanks to the other comments (who actuall, tried to answer the question) not sure I personally want to hunt down parts all the time so will have to watch and see 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,778
    AnOldFart said:
    OrangeBoy said:
    AnOldFart said:
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
    Woah, they aren't ready to answer those hard questions yet.

    Give them another couple of years and then you can ask
    Seriously why do you bother?
    I asked a genuine question please don't troll with silly comments.

    Thanks to the other comments (who actuall, tried to answer the question) not sure I personally want to hunt down parts all the time so will have to watch and see 
    The developers are putting a lot of faith into their version of 'how this game should be played'.  I'd agree with them that there *should* be lots of interaction between players, but this ignores the mentality of players.  People don't want to rely on others, they want to be self-sufficient.  And people who play games have boatloads of time on their hands.  Making some aspect of a game take a long time and hoping that will deter people from trying to 'do it all themselves' isn't taking the behavior of the players into account.

    In other words, the developers aren't developing for real-world conditions, only some ideal situations that may or may not happen.

    And @OrangeBoy may be right.  These developers don't appear to want to be proactive in addressing issues.  Those type of questions are not easy, and I doubt if they want to respond to those at this time.  Maybe time for those responses are buried in a Gantt chart somewhere. :)




    Slapshot1188Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,778
    Hmm, interesting. :)

    Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

    Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

    Snipehunter said:

    The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, more so than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.

    Nothing in our systems says you can't master bladesmithing and push your woodworking and general metalworking high enough to produce good guards, blades, hilts, and pommels, for example. On the other hand, the time it takes to produce all of these, as well as the various pins, adhesives, and other fixtures means that you're going to be spending a while to produce a single sword. Just forging the blade may take a few minutes, but that's compounded in nearly equal allotments for the major elements of the weapons and all of the minor materials that are part of the process also take, collectively, a few minutes to make as well. Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.

    It could very well be that your product's quality and the particular properties you impart as part of your use of techniques make that effort worth it - people could very well seek out your weapons. But if you're not as well known, and the blacksmith next door can knock out a decent sword in 1/5th the time because all she has to do is forge the blade from an existing billet and assemble the pieces she picked up at the market, that quality -- and that labor -- that you invested might go to waste. You may not be competitive.

    Which is actually much closer to the point. Our goals here are to support the connected economy while leaving the tactical choices of plying your trade up to you. There's a demand for everything every trade can produce, which will support a wide network of tradesfolk across a broad spectrum of skills in the pursuit of their own economic niches, but which niches you pursue and your strategy for doing so is up to you.

    As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale. Barring some rare exceptions, such as stepping into the young heir of a smith, you won't be forging swords on day one. Though, if you had a recipe and knew the techniques, you technically could try.

    Hope that helps! :)

    So, there won't be any pretense to historical accuracy for the social aspects of crafting -- secrecy and distrust of anyone who wants to look at crafts outside their own.  Everyone will do everything because they can.

    Greed will dominate this system.  When you see the only hinge on the marketplace that you need to make a chest are priced at 1000x the actual cost of manufacture (easily found via Google), players will attempt to make those hinges themselves.  Greed will set the price of the intermediate components, and given the choice to subsidize someone else's play style or do-it-yourself, do-it-yourself will win out.  Player to player trade won't occur as frequently as desired, and the entire concept collapses.

    Basically, people will not pay you for your time and effort to learn and make a hinge (your markup price), especially if resources (including money) will be limited.  




    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    edited April 2018
    @AnOldFart & @Mendel I have my questions for tonight already chosen, however i'll try and work in (time allowing) a couple that might help address your concerns

    mystichazeAnOldFart
  • UthraxUthrax Member UncommonPosts: 20
    Anything other than the spreadsheet 'A4=SUM(A1:A3)' formulas we've been 'playing' for crafting would be a welcomed change.  Not sure if this dev studio will be able too...But personally really tired of mashing 3 cells into 1 for an 'item' that is usually worthless anyway.
    Dleatherusmystichaze
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 552
    Mendel said:
    AnOldFart said:
    OrangeBoy said:
    AnOldFart said:
    Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.

    If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
    Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
    Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
    Woah, they aren't ready to answer those hard questions yet.

    Give them another couple of years and then you can ask
    Seriously why do you bother?
    I asked a genuine question please don't troll with silly comments.

    Thanks to the other comments (who actuall, tried to answer the question) not sure I personally want to hunt down parts all the time so will have to watch and see 
    The developers are putting a lot of faith into their version of 'how this game should be played'.  I'd agree with them that there *should* be lots of interaction between players, but this ignores the mentality of players.  People don't want to rely on others, they want to be self-sufficient.  And people who play games have boatloads of time on their hands.  Making some aspect of a game take a long time and hoping that will deter people from trying to 'do it all themselves' isn't taking the behavior of the players into account.

    In other words, the developers aren't developing for real-world conditions, only some ideal situations that may or may not happen.

    And @OrangeBoy may be right.  These developers don't appear to want to be proactive in addressing issues.  Those type of questions are not easy, and I doubt if they want to respond to those at this time.  Maybe time for those responses are buried in a Gantt chart somewhere. :)




    I wanted to give you an awesome or agree here but I didn't agree with what you said about @OrangeBoy. Whilst your interpretation of what he said is indeed correct unfortunately I don' believe he meant it in those terms. My reasoningis how he phrased it and his past history of comments on this site.
    mystichaze
  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Mendel said:

    Greed will dominate this system.  When you see the only hinge on the marketplace that you need to make a chest are priced at 1000x the actual cost of manufacture (easily found via Google), players will attempt to make those hinges themselves.  Greed will set the price of the intermediate components, and given the choice to subsidize someone else's play style or do-it-yourself, do-it-yourself will win out.  Player to player trade won't occur as frequently as desired, and the entire concept collapses.

    Basically, people will not pay you for your time and effort to learn and make a hinge (your markup price), especially if resources (including money) will be limited.  
    so two points i'd like to address:

    (1) i think greed is a driving force for many folks, be that in game or r/l, and for sure needs to be a consideration to take into account and how it can be worked around

    do you think that basic laws of supply and demand will tend to counter some of that - in other games i have played if something is excessively priced others will obtain the item and undercut the price gougers 

    of course some things are more readily available than others ie. the amount of iron on earth is far greater than the amount of gold - which brings us to ....


    (2) regarding the question of finite resources

    as i have understood it so far, the concept of finite resources for CoE is one similar to the finite resources on earth - there is only so much iron, gold, uranium, oil, coal and so on, but to date we have yet to deplete it

    it's more a matter of some resources are more abundant than others, and some resources might be readily available throughout the world, whereas others (like diamonds and gold on earth) will be found only in certain areas (and even those, despite great demand for them, have yet to be depleted)

    the major point being that you will not be able to harvest an iron node, deplete it, and return 3 hours later when it respawns, to reharvest that exact same node again

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,778
    Mendel said:

    Greed will dominate this system.  When you see the only hinge on the marketplace that you need to make a chest are priced at 1000x the actual cost of manufacture (easily found via Google), players will attempt to make those hinges themselves.  Greed will set the price of the intermediate components, and given the choice to subsidize someone else's play style or do-it-yourself, do-it-yourself will win out.  Player to player trade won't occur as frequently as desired, and the entire concept collapses.

    Basically, people will not pay you for your time and effort to learn and make a hinge (your markup price), especially if resources (including money) will be limited.  
    so two points i'd like to address:

    (1) i think greed is a driving force for many folks, be that in game or r/l, and for sure needs to be a consideration to take into account and how it can be worked around

    do you think that basic laws of supply and demand will tend to counter some of that - in other games i have played if something is excessively priced others will obtain the item and undercut the price gougers 

    of course some things are more readily available than others ie. the amount of iron on earth is far greater than the amount of gold - which brings us to ....


    (2) regarding the question of finite resources

    as i have understood it so far, the concept of finite resources for CoE is one similar to the finite resources on earth - there is only so much iron, gold, uranium, oil, coal and so on, but to date we have yet to deplete it

    it's more a matter of some resources are more abundant than others, and some resources might be readily available throughout the world, whereas others (like diamonds and gold on earth) will be found only in certain areas (and even those, despite great demand for them, have yet to be depleted)

    the major point being that you will not be able to harvest an iron node, deplete it, and return 3 hours later when it respawns, to reharvest that exact same node again

    1.  Supply and demand has never worked in other games.  I have no reason to believe that it will be any different here.  Look at EQ1, probably the oldest, most mature example of a game economy.  To level Blacksmithing, one path requires making a lot of subcombines.  There has never been a market opportunity for lower level crafters to step in, do a lot of these lower level combines and sell them to higher level crafters.  Ideally, both crafters improve their crafting.  In reality, the higher level crafter does all the subcombines for themselves.  There's no market for these intermediate steps, and therefore the supply and demand never extends outside a single crafter.  It is a self-sufficient process, fueled by a "I'll do it myself" mindset and does not translate to an economic (marketable) transaction.

    Even in games like LotRO, where crafting is somewhat restricted on each individual character, the player rarely ever looks outside their hoard of alts to actually purchase products from other players.  The transactions that do occur are almost exclusively raw materials, i.e. harvested materials, ang are almost universally overpriced.  The cost of the components frequently sell for many, many times that of a finished product using those materials.

    2.  I included 'Money' as one of those finite resources, each character 'inherits' a set amount depending on social status.  Maybe I am confusing CoE with one of the other games-in-production that I'm following.

    Finite money would make each game server a closed economy.  I don't think that kingdoms will be able to 'print' new money.  This is a very different situation from the real world, where money and value is a function of government, and is far from a closed economy.  I don't know if a completely closed economy is even possible (google Brazil Closed economy for some fascinating reading), but it certainly doesn't seem to operate with what we normally recognize as 'economic laws'.

    Anyway, the correct mathematical term for real world resources is 'Indefinite' -- there is a finite quantity but no one has any way to calculate that accurately.  Just a pet peeve of mine.




    DleatherusmystichazeAnOldFartGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    edited April 2018
    @Mendel - hrmmm - good points - am interested in your feedback on:

    to address your first point, I am wondering if the time it takes to level up (they have said 2-3 r/l years for some professions to get to legendary) will make a significant difference

    I fully agree with you that many gamers have a "self-sufficient process, fueled by a "I'll do it myself" mindset" - i'm one of those myself and though more interested in the PvP side of games, have the luxury of being retired and having enough time to level up all the crafting alts i have needed to fill any gearing up needs i have

    i'm not so sure in CoE that even with my relatively ridiculous amount of free time, that even if i wanted to, that in addition to becoming proficient in and maintaining my several combat skills i plan on, that i would have the time to be anything other than 'journeyman' at a crafting skill, and i like to have the best gear available (only 1% of the population can be 'legendary' in any skill at any given time)

    to me this is like the very early days of Ultima Online where it could take months and months to become 100/legendary in any skill - back then legendary smiths would often take apprentices under their wing and have them craft for them etc so that they in turn could raise their own skills

    it started to fall apart when all the apprentices themselves became 100/legendary and no longer needed the patronage - in the end the Ultima Online world (at least the Baja shard i played on) became over-saturated with legendary smiths and it seemed like everybody had one as an alt

    do you think that only having 1% being legendary in a skill might address that to some extent?

    here are the numbers (forgive them for being in a format i created for a different discussion way back when):


    put another way, regardless of the actual number of individuals in any given profession, there will always be:

    29% that are novice
    9% that are apprentice
    9% that are journeymen
    9% that are expert
    9% that are artisan
    9% that are renowned
    9% that are master
    9% that are grandmaster
    1% that are legendary

    (i hope i have these numbers right - they are from a whiles back and might have been adjusted since, but the concept remains the same even if the percentages within one category to another varied somewhat)

    anyhows lots more to add but it's already a wall of text so i'd like to get your input on this so far


    ______________________________________________________________

    my understanding is that there will be an existing 'global' form of currency in some shape or form when the game starts

    it has also been stated clearly that Dukes will have the ability to create their own currency system, be that with coin, paper, marked scraps of leather or any other device they decide upon

    just as clearly it has been stated that forgery is a skill also

    (here i again agree with you about the indexed info system that is currently sorely lacking on their website and makes trying to find the relevant info a pain in the arse to show and link to as a reference - so much of a pain in the arse that many (myself included) have to rely on 'remembering' what they read, and that leads to errors which is never a good thing- hrmm - time to prod one of the devs about it)

    i'm hoping to see an economy along the lines of EVE Online which had one the best player driven economies i have ever experienced in a game - shit, for some folks playing the resource and commodity markets with the fluctuating prices between the various trade hubs was the ONLY part of the game they played

    what are your thoughts?

    *edited to add "will make a significant difference" to one of my opening sentences - upon rereading the sentence didn't make any sense without adding it


    mystichaze
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226

    put another way, regardless of the actual number of individuals in any given profession, there will always be:

    29% that are novice
    9% that are apprentice
    9% that are journeymen
    9% that are expert
    9% that are artisan
    9% that are renowned
    9% that are master
    9% that are grandmaster
    1% that are legendary

    ?

    *edited to add "will make a significant difference" to one of my opening sentences - upon rereading the sentence didn't make any sense without adding it


    Can you walk me through how this is possible unless we are dealing with some sort of zero-sum skill pool that everyone pulls from?

    How can there "always be" a certain percentage of individuals with a certain skill? Would not there naturally be a change in percentages as characters improve? And yes with each life they start over, but they do so with a significant skill ramp which will further mean the percentages change as a faster pace...

    Are you suggesting that there is some sort of HardCap and if I am a Grandmaster.. I cannot progress to Legendary until one of the existing ones dies?

    PS: I think you mean each middle tier has 10% because 9% would not add to 100%...

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  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Can you walk me through how this is possible unless we are dealing with some sort of zero-sum skill pool that everyone pulls from?

    How can there "always be" a certain percentage of individuals with a certain skill? Would not there naturally be a change in percentages as characters improve? And yes with each life they start over, but they do so with a significant skill ramp which will further mean the percentages change as a faster pace...

    Are you suggesting that there is some sort of HardCap and if I am a Grandmaster.. I cannot progress to Legendary until one of the existing ones dies?

    PS: I think you mean each middle tier has 10% because 9% would not add to 100%...

    you are correct - it's meant to be 10% for each of the ranks except for novice (29%) and legendary (1%) - juggling many things today

    i'm not suggesting anything - i am going by what they have stated

    you might see that as a hard cap - i see it as there being no actual hard cap and that the ranks are relative to each other

    let's say (and this simplified theory and numbers are speculative on my end, and have not been taken from any SBS discussion) that at a particular window of time one player's skill level is at 200 (i do believe that they have said payers might not even get to see these stats/numbers, just the title of the level they are in) and he is the top player in the artisan rank, and the lowest player in the next level above him (expert) is at 203 skill level

    then what it would take is the player raising their skill to 204 and displacing the expert player that had 203 to the artisan rank

    again, let me repeat, this is MY interpretation of how it might work, and NOT anything that i have read, or think i have read in any CoE forum or discord

    might be something to ask Snipehunter in a few hours time

    fuck fuck fuck - so many questions, so little time :P
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226
    Can you walk me through how this is possible unless we are dealing with some sort of zero-sum skill pool that everyone pulls from?

    How can there "always be" a certain percentage of individuals with a certain skill? Would not there naturally be a change in percentages as characters improve? And yes with each life they start over, but they do so with a significant skill ramp which will further mean the percentages change as a faster pace...

    Are you suggesting that there is some sort of HardCap and if I am a Grandmaster.. I cannot progress to Legendary until one of the existing ones dies?

    PS: I think you mean each middle tier has 10% because 9% would not add to 100%...

    you are correct - it's meant to be 10% for each of the ranks except for novice (29%) and legendary (1%) - juggling many things today

    i'm not suggesting anything - i am going by what they have stated

    you might see that as a hard cap - i see it as there being no actual hard cap and that the ranks are relative to each other

    let's say (and this simplified theory and numbers are speculative on my end, and have not been taken from any SBS discussion) that at a particular window of time one player's skill level is at 200 (i do believe that they have said payers might not even get to see these stats/numbers, just the title of the level they are in) and he is the top player in the artisan rank, and the lowest player in the next level above him (expert) is at 203 skill level

    then what it would take is the player raising their skill to 204 and displacing the expert player that had 203 to the artisan rank

    again, let me repeat, this is MY interpretation of how it might work, and NOT anything that i have read, or think i have read in any CoE forum or discord

    might be something to ask Snipehunter in a few hours time

    fuck fuck fuck - so many questions, so little time :P
    Seems like a good question.  I mean, who really cares what you call something... what matters is what you can craft and what quality.  If I can craft the same items at the same quality as Blacksmith #2 I don't care if he calls himself Legendary.  If suddenly the sword I have been making for the last week becomes lower quality because someone else is now skill 204... that would be troubling.


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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378

    This is how SBS described Skill Mastery in CoE. Since I have not played a variety of MMOs to compare it too, I thought it might be of value to the conversation. BTW, it is awesome to finally be able to have a mature discussion and hear valid points from both sides. :)

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/620/DJ-8-Character-Roles-and-Skill-Advancement


    Skills Mastery in Chronicles of Elyria is divided up into tiers with a percent mastery for each tier. The tiers are broken down as follows:

    1. Novice (0% - 29%)
    2. Apprentice (30% - 39%)
    3. Journeyman (40% - 49%)
    4. Expert (50% - 59%)
    5. Artisan (60% - 69%)
    6. Renowned (70% - 79%)
    7. Master (80% - 89%)
    8. Grandmaster (90% - 99%)
    9. Legendary (100%)

    The percentage mastery reflects how proficient you are with a specific skill but also inversely reflects the percentage of people who will attain a specific skill tier. In other words, based on the amount of time it takes to level a skill, you can expect distribution of mastery across a server to look like the following:

    • Novice: 100% of all people can achieve Novice in any given skill
    • Apprentice: 70% of all people are likely to achieve apprentice in a skill
    • Journeyman: 60% of all people will achieve journeyman
    • Expert: 50% of all people will achieve Expert
    • Artisan: 40% of all people will be Artisans
    • Renowned: 30% of all people will achieve Renowned
    • Master: 20% of all people will achieve Master
    • Grandmaster: 10% of all people will achieve Grandmaster
    • Legendary : Approx. 1% will achieve Legendary

    Put differently, we calculated how long it would take people to reach Legendary status over several lifetimes if they did nothing but work on advancing a skill. Obviously, that's not going to happen. So as people train and improve, the Soulborn Engine monitors progress and provides bonuses as necessary to ensure the top 1%, 10%, etc... will eventually reach the Legendary or Grandmaster tier.

    You should also note those skill tiers carry across reincarnations and it will, in general, take a lifetime to become a Master, multiple to become a Grandmaster, and several to become Legendary.


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,778
    @Mendel - hrmmm - good points - am interested in your feedback on:

    to address your first point, I am wondering if the time it takes to level up (they have said 2-3 r/l years for some professions to get to legendary) will make a significant difference

    I fully agree with you that many gamers have a "self-sufficient process, fueled by a "I'll do it myself" mindset" - i'm one of those myself and though more interested in the PvP side of games, have the luxury of being retired and having enough time to level up all the crafting alts i have needed to fill any gearing up needs i have

    i'm not so sure in CoE that even with my relatively ridiculous amount of free time, that even if i wanted to, that in addition to becoming proficient in and maintaining my several combat skills i plan on, that i would have the time to be anything other than 'journeyman' at a crafting skill, and i like to have the best gear available (only 1% of the population can be 'legendary' in any skill at any given time)

    to me this is like the very early days of Ultima Online where it could take months and months to become 100/legendary in any skill - back then legendary smiths would often take apprentices under their wing and have them craft for them etc so that they in turn could raise their own skills

    it started to fall apart when all the apprentices themselves became 100/legendary and no longer needed the patronage - in the end the Ultima Online world (at least the Baja shard i played on) became over-saturated with legendary smiths and it seemed like everybody had one as an alt

    do you think that only having 1% being legendary in a skill might address that to some extent?

    here are the numbers (forgive them for being in a format i created for a different discussion way back when):


    put another way, regardless of the actual number of individuals in any given profession, there will always be:

    29% that are novice
    9% that are apprentice
    9% that are journeymen
    9% that are expert
    9% that are artisan
    9% that are renowned
    9% that are master
    9% that are grandmaster
    1% that are legendary

    (i hope i have these numbers right - they are from a whiles back and might have been adjusted since, but the concept remains the same even if the percentages within one category to another varied somewhat)

    anyhows lots more to add but it's already a wall of text so i'd like to get your input on this so far


    ______________________________________________________________

    my understanding is that there will be an existing 'global' form of currency in some shape or form when the game starts

    it has also been stated clearly that Dukes will have the ability to create their own currency system, be that with coin, paper, marked scraps of leather or any other device they decide upon

    just as clearly it has been stated that forgery is a skill also

    (here i again agree with you about the indexed info system that is currently sorely lacking on their website and makes trying to find the relevant info a pain in the arse to show and link to as a reference - so much of a pain in the arse that many (myself included) have to rely on 'remembering' what they read, and that leads to errors which is never a good thing- hrmm - time to prod one of the devs about it)

    i'm hoping to see an economy along the lines of EVE Online which had one the best player driven economies i have ever experienced in a game - shit, for some folks playing the resource and commodity markets with the fluctuating prices between the various trade hubs was the ONLY part of the game they played

    what are your thoughts?

    *edited to add "will make a significant difference" to one of my opening sentences - upon rereading the sentence didn't make any sense without adding it


    First.  1-2 years or RL time to become max out.  I'll have to see that in action.  Personally, I doubt such an understaffed development team can successfully generate that amount of content in any reasonable timeframe.

    Second.  I do not know how this game would restrict the number of 'Legendary' crafters to 1%.  Moreso, I have a lot of difficulty in believing the game community would accept that kind of artificial restriction.  Imagine you are grinding along, approaching Legendary status.  Then you're stopped by the game because there aren't enough crafters for that particular craft.  You can't progress any further, not because of anything you've done, but because of what others haven't done.  I simply cannot see that as a good thing, under any circumstances.

    I've also not heard this idea outside of your post.  I'll accept that this is something they have discussed somewhere beyond my knowledge.  It's still a very bad idea.  One problem that immediately comes to mind, what happens to these barriers when there are few people pursuing that specific craft?  If there are only 3 people working on a possible skill called X which can be used to make item Y, who is going to progress beyond the Novice level?  First one there? One that bought that ability in the pre-launch cash shop?  Is it random which 2 will be blocked?  How is the rounding going to happen?  If there are 180 smiths on a server, does that mean there can be 1.8 or 2 legendary crafters?

    This is a very bad system that gives no indication that anything remotely applicable to the expected behavior of players.  Not only that, it relies heavily on the still hopeful number of players on a given server.  Possibly the worst offense I can imagine is that the restriction is just that, an artificial restriction to a player's actions, not the acknowledgement of accomplishment.

    Third.  At least there is an idea that some players can create currency within the game and there won't be an artificial closed economy.

    However, this seems massively prone to abuse.  How is the value of Duke N's currency going to be established against the other Duke's currencies?  What kind of restrictions are there on printing money?  Will there be a gold standard, or something else?  What is going to prevent Duke N from printing all their money and just sitting on it, keeping their internal economy of their territory in squalor?  What factors will cause fluxuation in the various currencies?  Bad crops?  War?  Disease?  What about simple bad management and dissatisfaction with the Duke's policies?

    While I like the idea of a realistic simulation of an economic system, it leads us back to the "I'm not certain this crew can do it" discussion.  A functioning economy is a very huge and complex thing, and even the best game development team would be very challenged to accomplish something like this.  I don't know how this team is going to manage this, or even if the details have been designed for how the little things (like printing money) will occur.




    Slapshot1188DleatherusGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Seems like a good question.  I mean, who really cares what you call something... what matters is what you can craft and what quality.  If I can craft the same items at the same quality as Blacksmith #2 I don't care if he calls himself Legendary.  If suddenly the sword I have been making for the last week becomes lower quality because someone else is now skill 204... that would be troubling.


    not so sure it would be troubling as much as something that folks should definitely be aware of if that is going to be the mechanic

    though it does lead to other questions of concern which have me believing my speculation must be wrong

    where you are coming up with a week to make a sword?

    i'm going by the dev comment of:

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226
    Seems like a good question.  I mean, who really cares what you call something... what matters is what you can craft and what quality.  If I can craft the same items at the same quality as Blacksmith #2 I don't care if he calls himself Legendary.  If suddenly the sword I have been making for the last week becomes lower quality because someone else is now skill 204... that would be troubling.


    not so sure it would be troubling as much as something that folks should definitely be aware of if that is going to be the mechanic

    though it does lead to other questions of concern which have me believing my speculation must be wrong

    where you are coming up with a week to make a sword?

    i'm going by the dev comment of:

    It should be meant to read not that it takes a week to make a sword, but that the "sword class item" I have been able to make all week suddenly becomes lower quality.

    So I am making Steel Sword (Lets call it quality that does 2-10 pts damage.. totally made up) all week...   if someone else moves ahead of my skill I should not now be making Steel Sword of lesser quality (does 2-9 pts damage).

    Hope that better explains it.

    Gdemami

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  • DleatherusDleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168
    It should be meant to read not that it takes a week to make a sword, but that the "sword class item" I have been able to make all week suddenly becomes lower quality.

    So I am making Steel Sword (Lets call it quality that does 2-10 pts damage.. totally made up) all week...   if someone else moves ahead of my skill I should not now be making Steel Sword of lesser quality (does 2-9 pts damage).

    Hope that better explains it.

    it does and ty - easy enough to see where the misunderstanding took place (i make similar ones frequently enough) - probably making them plural instead of singular would help ie. "so i am making steel swords all week" 
    mystichaze
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226
    Interesting comment today.  @Dleatherus can clarify if I caught it wrong but from what I understood the developer said that people who purchased certain packages would be given unique recipes or techniques which could NEVER be found or made in game unless shared by the person that bought it in the pre-game cash shop...

    Did I correctly catch that?


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    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226
    Also... he clarified that the percentages are NOT hard coded.  It's what they ESTIMATE people's skills to be at.. but there is no "Highlander" concept where when you move up a notch someone else moves down.

    So everyone could attain all the levels if they put in the effort.  There could be far more than 1% "Legendary" smiths. 



    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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