Developing without a concrete plan is known as cowboy coding. It has been a major problem in the computer industry for decades.
Just because you don't get what -you- expect in dev Journals doesn't mean they don't have a concrete plan. It only means you don't completely understand their plan at this time. Patience is a virtue.
At the end of 2017 they announced they were replacing SpatialOS which was billed as “the fabric they were building the game on”, and as we know their development schedule has had... issues... to put it mildly. I’d have to side with Mendel on this until they actual show they have a real plan they can deliver to. Time will tell!!
Has been brought up and debated in several other threads and once again not relative to how CoEs crafting compares to other MMOs.
Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.
Snipehunter replied:
A very large difference here, that I think is often overlooked, is that we're not excluding NPCs in our planning. Players will enter a world that already have a functional economy, with tasks awaiting completion, niches to fill, and opportunities to exploit. But, if for whatever reason players should elect not to take those opportunities, NPCs in the world will eventually do so.
Likewise, NPCs aren't capped at some level of development in comparison to players. It's true that players will, in general, produce better work, but that's about player skill, not about any artificial constraints of the system. This means that a master smith NPC will produce great quality work, even if he won't rival a player of similar skill at the same levels. That means that every area, regardless of player crafting participation, will have an avenue to supply needed materials to players, but it doesn't rule out the need to travel far and wide to find the "best."
And, let's talk about "Best" - in most MMOs, "best" for a particular class of character is a singular weapon or gear set, but in the real world it doesn't really play out that way. We each have our own strategies, our own preferences, that influence what we look at as "Best." A MEOW is similar for a number of reasons: You pick your approach to craft, combat, politics, and adventure. You decide what styles to fight with, what crafts to pursue, and how to pursue mastery of those crafts and combat styles. This means "best" for you can be markedly different from "best" for me.
This is further compounded by regionality: "best" for you might be entirely different from "best" for me because we come from different places with different resources and, thus, different crafters and skill sets. A To'resk may not want neran platemail, they may instead prefer the home-made composite because it's lighter, less likely to be stifling in the heat, but offers similar levels of protection even if it requires more upkeep. That extra upkeep might be a non-factor, depending on the To'resk, since they might not have access to the materials necessary to upkeep and repair steel platemail but do have the leathers, paper, and lacquer necessary to repair To'resk armor, not to mention access to a community of folks that know the secrets of To'resk composite armor.
So, all of this works together to create regional demand for skills and items centered around what the region can support, both from a materials and skillset standpoint. Both of which, materials and skillset, are covered by NPCs even if players never get involved. The result should be a world where "flavor of the week," when it exists, exists in specific areas rather than globally, and waxes and wanes as access to materials and skillset change in a region.
Unless you all go murder all the NPCs, players should never enter a world where the problem you're considering with that callback to AC2 can't really exist.
I had a lot of questions on page 3. But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?' Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties. Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves. That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.
This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game.
As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways.
So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes.
First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)
So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area.
How does family selection work?
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
General Info
Wealth, Power & Standing
Occupations
Disposition
Physical Traits
This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting.
That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities.
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think.
If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.
I had a lot of questions on page 3. But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?' Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties. Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves. That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.
This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game.
As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways.
So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes.
First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)
So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area.
How does family selection work?
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
General Info
Wealth, Power & Standing
Occupations
Disposition
Physical Traits
This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting.
That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities.
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think.
If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.
So think this through. You just select the fame family for your 5 alts... Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....
Is that really a good idea?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I had a lot of questions on page 3. But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?' Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties. Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves. That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.
This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game.
As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways.
So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes.
First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)
So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area.
How does family selection work?
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
General Info
Wealth, Power & Standing
Occupations
Disposition
Physical Traits
This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting.
That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities.
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think.
If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.
So think this through. You just select the fame family for your 5 alts... Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....
Is that really a good idea?
And perhaps a conversation for another thread since it has nothing to do with Alts for the purpose of Crafting.
I had a lot of questions on page 3. But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?' Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties. Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves. That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.
This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game.
As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways.
So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes.
First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)
So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area.
How does family selection work?
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
General Info
Wealth, Power & Standing
Occupations
Disposition
Physical Traits
This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting.
That being said, the family you select has a huge impact on your social experience, and not just when interacting with other family members. Your choice of family (and their social class) impacts how other NPCs, OPCs, and players interact with you. The family you select will also determine things like what type and how big your starting house is, and how much land your family has for farming, mining, breeding, and other land-based activities.
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
So in my opinion, with the implementation of the above barriers considered the use of Alts might not be as cut and dry as we know it to be in other games. You would have to be able to find suitable families, or Orphanages all in the same location in order for Alts to be any benefit to you. I am not saying that it can't be done, but I think it will be a lot more difficult that one might think.
If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.
So think this through. You just select the fame family for your 5 alts... Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....
Is that really a good idea?
And perhaps a conversation for another thread since it has nothing to do with Crafting.
Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs.
If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier against Goon Squads and Zergs taking possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread.
Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs.
If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread.
Nope. Nothing to do with Goon Squads. Nothing to do with taking over settlements.
I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.
YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO. YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together. Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.
Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs.
If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread.
Nope. Nothing to do with Goon Squads. Nothing to do with taking over settlements.
I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.
YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO. YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together. Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.
Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
Ok, you say my assessment is wrong in regard to how this mechanic is going to be a barrier for Alts. Then please point out where anything I referred to didn't come from a DJ. Or how I misinterpreted it (overstated). In relationship to Alts in the Crafting system. Rather than just making a blanketed statement.
I agree it will have the same effect on players that want to play together and perhaps adjustments will have to be made in order for them to do that. So be it, if that is the design of the game. They may have to spend some time in-game in order to bring their characters together.
Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
That is your opinion and of course, you are entitled to it. However, not one single post that you have made in this thread has to do with the crafting system in CoE, or how it will compare to other MMOs.
If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier for Goon Squads and Zergs to take possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread.
Nope. Nothing to do with Goon Squads. Nothing to do with taking over settlements.
I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.
YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO. YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together. Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.
Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
Ok, you say my assessment is wrong in regard to how this mechanic is going to be a barrier for Alts. Then please point out where anything I referred to didn't come from a DJ. Or how I misinterpreted it (overstated). In relationship to Alts in the Crafting system. Rather than just making a blanketed statement.
I agree it will have the same effect on players that want to play together and perhaps adjustments will have to be made in order for them to do that. So be it, if that is the design of the game. They may have to spend some time in-game in order to bring their characters together.
As I said I'm not interested in convincing you
Pretty sure Mendel will get it.
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I wonder what made them consider crafting to be more important than the really interesting stuff like the skill trees or spirit walking.
Something tells me, that money and time are gonna be wasted in the long run. But the bright side: even if CoE fails, it'll be a good precursor to any other cash-grabs out there.
One of the biggest differences between CoE and other MMO crafting systems is that in CoE you can fully macro the entire crafting process !
That's what you will be doing when you make the "scripts" that will be used to run your char when you are logged out.
So not only will you be able to macro it, but you won't even have to be online to run that macro all night long !
This is true innovation in the MMO world, no game has ever had this kind of functionality built-in.
in my opinion you are completely mistaken - you CANNOT macro the entire crafting process
they way i understand it, and that the devs have explained, is that you will be able to macro/script the involved processes of crating/techniques that you are already proficient in, which is not the "entire" process
you will need to be present and look for and respond to appropriately to the different audio and visual cues at each step of the crafting process for crafting something that you are not proficient in
meaning chore type crafting is automated (if you choose to), skill leveling crafting is challenging (no option to automate)
haven't actually seen this in a game that i have played before (it for sure might be out there)
would be interested if you could list for me the mmorpg's out there that have this
btw they have said that the OPC making of chore type craft items is intentional, so that people who have limited time to play the game get log in and PLAY the game - not log in and spend precious time on mundane already-known crafting processes
I loved the DJ. Not so much for the crafting, but for the info on how mining will work. When asking friends what role they want to play in a multiplayer evolving online world, not a few says blacksmith. They got to get their ore somewhere.
I loved the DJ. Not so much for the crafting, but for the info on how mining will work. When asking friends what role they want to play in a multiplayer evolving online world, not a few says blacksmith. They got to get their ore somewhere.
So your friends are more interested in becoming Miners? I know that is a passion of a couple of players I have in my group. Myself I would rather be a crafter, but crafters will always need gathers. heh
Idle Adventures(Runescape etc...) kind of did it first. Not scripts but still...
i'll put you down as not being able to come up with one
"kind of" could include ANY mmo that you could macro in, which with a gaming keyboard is basically all of them
though there might be others out there (and i'm genuinely interested in finding out if there are others to see how it worked there, this is the first that i know of that allows for offline scripted chores to be handled to allow you to focus on skill based leveling when online
Idle Adventures(Runescape etc...) kind of did it first. Not scripts but still...
i'll put you down as not being able to come up with one
"kind of" could include ANY mmo that you could macro in, which with a gaming keyboard is basically all of them
though there might be others out there (and i'm genuinely interested in finding out if there are others to see how it worked there, this is the first that i know of that allows for offline scripted chores to be handled to allow you to focus on skill based leveling when online
You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard. It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.
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You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard. It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.
Hence "IdleAdventures" I suppose!
I must say, since I don't have a lot of time that I can devote to playing games anymore, I might be interested in that. I'm going to check that out!
(I know this post has nothing to do with crafting in CoE)
And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard. It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.
can't list one game confirmed
a game that plays itself is NOT the same as a game that you can proactively script what you want your character to be doing when you are offline
You can put me down for anything you like. I was actually responding to @SpottyGekko. And actually if you knew anything about IdleAdventures you’d know you don’t even need a keyboard. It’s just a game that plays itself for you and lets you pop in for the supposed interesting stuff.
Hence "IdleAdventures" I suppose!
I must say, since I don't have a lot of time that I can devote to playing games anymore, I might be interested in that. I'm going to check that out!
(I know this post has nothing to do with crafting in CoE)
It’s interesting for a few days. Every so often I get the urge to login and see how many billions of items my guys have crafted since I last logged in but just can’t get myself to do it. I think they are F2P so no harm checking it to get a feel for a crafting system that plays itself.
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Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.
Snipehunter said:
The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, more so than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.
Nothing in our systems says you can't master bladesmithing and push your woodworking and general metalworking high enough to produce good guards, blades, hilts, and pommels, for example. On the other hand, the time it takes to produce all of these, as well as the various pins, adhesives, and other fixtures means that you're going to be spending a while to produce a single sword. Just forging the blade may take a few minutes, but that's compounded in nearly equal allotments for the major elements of the weapons and all of the minor materials that are part of the process also take, collectively, a few minutes to make as well. Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.
It could very well be that your product's quality and the particular properties you impart as part of your use of techniques make that effort worth it - people could very well seek out your weapons. But if you're not as well known, and the blacksmith next door can knock out a decent sword in 1/5th the time because all she has to do is forge the blade from an existing billet and assemble the pieces she picked up at the market, that quality -- and that labor -- that you invested might go to waste. You may not be competitive.
Which is actually much closer to the point. Our goals here are to support the connected economy while leaving the tactical choices of plying your trade up to you. There's a demand for everything every trade can produce, which will support a wide network of tradesfolk across a broad spectrum of skills in the pursuit of their own economic niches, but which niches you pursue and your strategy for doing so is up to you.
As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale. Barring some rare exceptions, such as stepping into the young heir of a smith, you won't be forging swords on day one. Though, if you had a recipe and knew the techniques, you technically could try.
In short how will the system compensate for a region or perhaps an entire kingdom in which there are thousands of swordsmiths but no one who can make hilts? My MMO sense tells me cross skills would be the answer. Perhaps a woodworker who specializes in bows could use their skill to make a wooden hilt for the local blacksmith. Is the system really as interconnected as to allow 3-4 end use crafters to be able to trade lower tier components between them allowing for each to have access to the raw components they each need?
Snipehunter Said:
That is absolutely the intent. Most handles, for example, aren't made of metal. They're leather, or wood, or some mixture of the two. A leatherworker making, for example, belts still needs metal fixtures (rivets, buckles, etc.) from a metal worker. A fletcher needs metal arrowheads, and so on. Of course, making those components usually isn't the be all end all of the related skillset, so it's also possible to learn how to do them yourself, but that will take time and effort, so it becomes a strategic choice as much as it is a requirement of the end product.
Hope that helps!
Posted By Logain
I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?
Snipehunter Said:
It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.
Ok that's interesting but I have one concern there.
If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts... Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts. Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)
Comments
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/24679/design-journal-crafting-redux?page=11#16
Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.
Snipehunter replied:
A very large difference here, that I think is often overlooked, is that we're not excluding NPCs in our planning. Players will enter a world that already have a functional economy, with tasks awaiting completion, niches to fill, and opportunities to exploit. But, if for whatever reason players should elect not to take those opportunities, NPCs in the world will eventually do so.
Likewise, NPCs aren't capped at some level of development in comparison to players. It's true that players will, in general, produce better work, but that's about player skill, not about any artificial constraints of the system. This means that a master smith NPC will produce great quality work, even if he won't rival a player of similar skill at the same levels. That means that every area, regardless of player crafting participation, will have an avenue to supply needed materials to players, but it doesn't rule out the need to travel far and wide to find the "best."
And, let's talk about "Best" - in most MMOs, "best" for a particular class of character is a singular weapon or gear set, but in the real world it doesn't really play out that way. We each have our own strategies, our own preferences, that influence what we look at as "Best." A MEOW is similar for a number of reasons: You pick your approach to craft, combat, politics, and adventure. You decide what styles to fight with, what crafts to pursue, and how to pursue mastery of those crafts and combat styles. This means "best" for you can be markedly different from "best" for me.
This is further compounded by regionality: "best" for you might be entirely different from "best" for me because we come from different places with different resources and, thus, different crafters and skill sets. A To'resk may not want neran platemail, they may instead prefer the home-made composite because it's lighter, less likely to be stifling in the heat, but offers similar levels of protection even if it requires more upkeep. That extra upkeep might be a non-factor, depending on the To'resk, since they might not have access to the materials necessary to upkeep and repair steel platemail but do have the leathers, paper, and lacquer necessary to repair To'resk armor, not to mention access to a community of folks that know the secrets of To'resk composite armor.
So, all of this works together to create regional demand for skills and items centered around what the region can support, both from a materials and skillset standpoint. Both of which, materials and skillset, are covered by NPCs even if players never get involved. The result should be a world where "flavor of the week," when it exists, exists in specific areas rather than globally, and waxes and wanes as access to materials and skillset change in a region.
Unless you all go murder all the NPCs, players should never enter a world where the problem you're considering with that callback to AC2 can't really exist.
Hope that helps!
I had a lot of questions on page 3. But the most telling might be 'Will a single player be able to learn every possible craft?' Some players will have far more time to spend on this game than others, and won't be fazed by extravagant learning penalties. Every other game without explicit barriers to 'do anything for yourself' has always had characters that do exactly that -- craft anything they personally need themselves. That kills any independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts, hurts any economy based on crafted goods, and reduces player-to-player interaction.
This question has been playing on my mind quite a bit, and Mendel is right, if a single player is able to learn every possible craft with the use of several Alts it would indeed kill the independence and interdependence which may exist between crafts and be very harmful to the economy. In addition, it would deplete the immersion that CoE is thriving to obtain. So I began researching, from what I know about the design of the game.
As I had stated before my first thought on the matter was the cost of having Alts with the cost of Sparks (needed to create a new character) And separate accounts (A limit of characters per account ranging from three to five). Of course, after giving it some thought, this alone is not going to deter some players from having several characters anyways.
So here are some of the other things that I searched for that I believe would be barriers to the use of Alts for crafting purposes.
First off, there is no universal bank system that can be accessed by all your characters, nor is there a mail system planned for implementation and you will have limited inventory space on characters. The majority of your possessions would be kept in your home. In addition, there is also no means of fast travel planned. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/827/DJ-11-Equipment-Inventory)
Why is this pertinent you might ask? Well because the way Character Creation is established you are not guaranteed to have all your Alts spawn in the same location. Which they would need to be in order to store and pass goods from one to the other. (https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/1203/DJ-14-Player-Housing-Architecture-Construction)
So let's take a look at the way Character Creation has been designed. In order to create a character in CoE you will be expected to choose from suitable families, with an available NPC to possess, that are offered to you by whatever criteria you have stipulated. Or you can enter the world as a Ward, but an available NPC to possess would still need to be available in the Orphanage. (These families are spread out across the map and not in a starting location like the MMOs we know). ( https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414/Design-Journal-5-Families-Family-Selection). Also if the engine feels that one area is too populated it won't offer a Family or NPC to possess in that area.
How does family selection work?
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
This quote doesn't directly say so but I am assuming by the statement of land-based activities, this would include Crafting.
Family selection in CoE works on a filter system. By default, the Soulborn Engine offers a set of families for you to choose from based on the age you've selected for your character. However, if the engine feels there's too many people clustered in one region (no starter towns in CoE) it may withhold families in that area seeking children and instead suggest another area of the map.
While it's great to have a large selection of families, you may have specific requirements for the family you want to join - and they may have requirements/expectations for you! To help with the matchmaking process the Family Selection Screen includes a set of filters which allow you to narrow in on a small set of families which you think will be a good fit for you. As you can see in Figure 1, family selection is currently divided up into five categories. These include:
If you see possible loopholes or exploits that I am missing I would really like to hear them, because as I stated before I agree with Mendel that the use of Alts in crafting could kill immersion.
Otherwise... think of the uproar when 4 IRL friends want to play together and the game makes them start on opposite parts of the world in other kingdoms....
Is that really a good idea?
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So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
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Again... YOU introduced the quotes and mechanic for discussion. You introduced the concept of Family Selection to the discussion. YOU asked for things you were missing.
So here, to round it out nicely for you:
Your stated assumption that it would be very hard for a player to make alts in the same area is wrong IMHO. It is wrong because doing so would create a ridiculous barrier to groups of players joining the game together. I believe you have dramatically overstated the impact of family selection and locality and that this will not be a real barrier to anyone that wants to make an alt.
If you don't like that opinion, tough noogies.
If you want to discuss how the Character Creator also acts as a Barrier against Goon Squads and Zergs taking possession of complete settlements, then please start a new thread.
I'll restate again since you seem to think it's not on topic.
YOUR statement that this mechanic is going to prevent alts is wrong IMHO. YOU have vastly over stated the impact of the mechanic on preventing alts. Thus you have vastly over stated it's impact in preventing the scenario that Mendel described related to crafting. The reasoning is that it would have the same impact on any people that wanted to play together. Not The Goons, but Bill and Bob who are neighbors or Jane and Tim who are a married couple. Thus Mendel's concern is still valid.
Feel free to ignore it and think this mechanic will prevent crafting alts. I'm not trying to convince you you are wrong. I'm more interested in what people like Mendel think.
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I agree it will have the same effect on players that want to play together and perhaps adjustments will have to be made in order for them to do that. So be it, if that is the design of the game. They may have to spend some time in-game in order to bring their characters together.
Pretty sure Mendel will get it.
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Something tells me, that money and time are gonna be wasted in the long run. But the bright side: even if CoE fails, it'll be a good precursor to any other cash-grabs out there.
That's what you will be doing when you make the "scripts" that will be used to run your char when you are logged out.
So not only will you be able to macro it, but you won't even have to be online to run that macro all night long !
This is true innovation in the MMO world, no game has ever had this kind of functionality built-in.
they way i understand it, and that the devs have explained, is that you will be able to macro/script the involved processes of crating/techniques that you are already proficient in, which is not the "entire" process
you will need to be present and look for and respond to appropriately to the different audio and visual cues at each step of the crafting process for crafting something that you are not proficient in
meaning chore type crafting is automated (if you choose to), skill leveling crafting is challenging (no option to automate)
haven't actually seen this in a game that i have played before (it for sure might be out there)
would be interested if you could list for me the mmorpg's out there that have this
btw they have said that the OPC making of chore type craft items is intentional, so that people who have limited time to play the game get log in and PLAY the game - not log in and spend precious time on mundane already-known crafting processes
to me this is a good thing
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"kind of" could include ANY mmo that you could macro in, which with a gaming keyboard is basically all of them
though there might be others out there (and i'm genuinely interested in finding out if there are others to see how it worked there, this is the first that i know of that allows for offline scripted chores to be handled to allow you to focus on skill based leveling when online
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Hence "IdleAdventures" I suppose!
I must say, since I don't have a lot of time that I can devote to playing games anymore, I might be interested in that. I'm going to check that out!
(I know this post has nothing to do with crafting in CoE)
a game that plays itself is NOT the same as a game that you can proactively script what you want your character to be doing when you are offline
ty
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Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018
Snipehunter said:
The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, more so than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.
Nothing in our systems says you can't master bladesmithing and push your woodworking and general metalworking high enough to produce good guards, blades, hilts, and pommels, for example. On the other hand, the time it takes to produce all of these, as well as the various pins, adhesives, and other fixtures means that you're going to be spending a while to produce a single sword. Just forging the blade may take a few minutes, but that's compounded in nearly equal allotments for the major elements of the weapons and all of the minor materials that are part of the process also take, collectively, a few minutes to make as well. Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.
It could very well be that your product's quality and the particular properties you impart as part of your use of techniques make that effort worth it - people could very well seek out your weapons. But if you're not as well known, and the blacksmith next door can knock out a decent sword in 1/5th the time because all she has to do is forge the blade from an existing billet and assemble the pieces she picked up at the market, that quality -- and that labor -- that you invested might go to waste. You may not be competitive.
Which is actually much closer to the point. Our goals here are to support the connected economy while leaving the tactical choices of plying your trade up to you. There's a demand for everything every trade can produce, which will support a wide network of tradesfolk across a broad spectrum of skills in the pursuit of their own economic niches, but which niches you pursue and your strategy for doing so is up to you.
As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale. Barring some rare exceptions, such as stepping into the young heir of a smith, you won't be forging swords on day one. Though, if you had a recipe and knew the techniques, you technically could try.
Hope that helps!
Posted By Logain
Snipehunter Said:
It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.
Hope that helps!
If I am a swordsmith I don't want to spend all my time running around to other towns/villaes looking for parts...
Also how are they going to then arrange trade with npc's for these parts.
Also did swordsmiths really look for a leatherworker to craft the wrapping for a handle? (genuine question since they are going for realism)