Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Guild Wars 2 - Metabattle is Ruining PvP in GW2 - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited April 2018 in News & Features Discussion

imageGuild Wars 2 - Metabattle is Ruining PvP in GW2 - MMORPG.com

There’s an undercurrent of PvP fanatics in GW2 that believe there is only one correct way to play a class in structured PvP, and that’s the MetaBattle way. If you pray to the holy MetaBattle gods to tell you what to play, I have some startling news for you, you’re ruining PvP.

Read the full story here



¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


«1

Comments

  • makevalimakevali Member UncommonPosts: 48
    Interesting read, I also sometimes wish there was no such thing as metabattle but at the same time it helps players that don't have the time to slowly discover which build best works for them so they end up trying different metabattle builds until they find one they like , so it works in that way.
    ThupliMaddog666TsiyaNecrosis_bear
  • NephethNepheth Member RarePosts: 473
    edited April 2018
    This is not a problem specific to Guild Wars 2. This is a problem with every single competitive game out there. If you really wanna play something considered competitive you have to deal with the toxicity. There is no other way around. And about the meta builds, again there is no fix for it. Every single online game has this problem. You can diverse the build system or simplify it as much as you want. There will always be meta builds for specific game mods. And not all people like to experiment around builds. Most of the players I encounter in any game just look for a "meta" build for their class and use it. I won't even call this as a problem. You just have to deal with it. If you don't wanna use any kind of "meta" build than don't. Like I said there will always be toxicity. It doesn't matter which game it is. Just ignore them and play your game. If you can't handle it than don't play ranked pvp. It is that simple.
    ysn888YashaXpantaroSpottyGekkoAnirethMaddog666ThupliValdheimonelesslight
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,766
    Meta in all games is obnoxious but will always be there, you cannot get rid of people who want to be the most efficient or the most powerful even if it's 1 dps higher or more effective in PvP. It's crazy. It's gotten to the point where I will look up builds for any game I'm playing because I'm not trying to deal with encounters where other players are telling me I'm not built as well as X or I'm not doing X. It's happened in a few games before and just annoys me.
    immoralthangSteelhelmMaddog666
  • ScarranScarran Member UncommonPosts: 102
    edited April 2018
    The problem with meta builds is not the ones who create them but the community who automatically assume that everyone is of the same skill level. These builds do not take into consideration the various skill levels of players and everyone automatically assumes that anyone can play these builds and perform like the numbers suggest.

    In reality some people may prefer other builds because they perform better with those but in the communities eyes, they would rather you were inefficient with a meta build than being efficient with a non meta build. It isn't really just PvP that this happens with as anyone doing pug fractals or raids will tell you that you need a particular class and build or else you will get vote kicked.

    My major issue is with the "balance" team and the lack of it. I know an mmorpg will never be balanced per say but GW2 "balance" team doesn't even come close to attempting the balance of long standing issue's. Like Necro getting booted out of end game PvE group content for over 5 years now, which is just one example of many. They would rather do sweeping changes to classes or issues that are non urgent or that hardly anyone is complaining about.
    Post edited by Scarran on
    Gdemami[Deleted User]maskedweaseloriya9SteelhelmMaddog666ThupliNecrosis_bear
  • MidPrincessMidPrincess Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Meta builds will always exist, there's no escaping them, especially when many gamers are too lazy to do any sort of real research and prefer to follow the path of least resistance (and least reading), hence their reliance on meta.

    That being said, the PvP in GW 2 was terrible from Day One, so this isn't really a surprise. GW 1 did a superb job of balancing PvP, but ANet threw the baby out with the bathwater when they made this "sequel."
    Thupli[Deleted User]AvarixMaddog666
  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,125

    Meta builds will always exist, there's no escaping them, especially when many gamers are too lazy to do any sort of real research and prefer to follow the path of least resistance (and least reading), hence their reliance on meta.

    That being said, the PvP in GW 2 was terrible from Day One, so this isn't really a surprise. GW 1 did a superb job of balancing PvP, but ANet threw the baby out with the bathwater when they made this "sequel."
    Yep, it's a class based game. MMO PvP is a tough thing to do right. There will always be balance issues.
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • UNH0LYEV1LUNH0LYEV1L Member UncommonPosts: 571
    LOL welcome to any game ever. This is blowing the issue way out of proportion.
    MidPrincessalivenDakeruYashaXViper482Necrosis_bear
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,306
    Ah, yes. I remember back in the early days of playing WoW. The constant barrage of "Go marks, noob", and "Why you play Beast. You dps is too low". Meta gaming.....suck it! Do what makes you happy.
    maskedweaselAvarixMaddog666TacticalZombeh

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • anthonyw.grayanthonyw.gray Member UncommonPosts: 24
    edited April 2018
    This isn't just a problem in GW2, but every competitive game on the market. It usually leads toxicity and/or douchebaggery. When someone mentions "meta" or "min/max" that's usually a sign for me to go do something else in that game, or to play a different game all together.
    maskedweasel
  • AlomarAlomar Member RarePosts: 1,299
    Recently returned to GW2 this year after not playing since launch, and had similar experiences with WvW. While there's always fotm builds in-between a dev's active attempt to balance, GW2's WvW variety consists of five or so builds with entire classes excluded if you want to be competent and accomplish anything.

    Meanwhile, after 3 weeks of playing I could see that the meta had changed so heavily in favor of stacking as many scourge necro's as you could to instant kill/lag-out your enemies. Safe to say I left, as the shorter the ttk(time to kill) the worse a game is imo.
    maskedweaselYashaXThupli
    Haxus Council Member
    21  year MMO veteran 
    PvP Raid Leader 
    Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
  • bigb671bigb671 Member UncommonPosts: 22
    This is why I only play with my friends, so I can avoid all the meta bs that randoms will preach.
    maskedweasel
  • APThugAPThug Member RarePosts: 542
    To talk a bit more on the gw2 point, metabattle should be used as a site to help you pick or decide on a build you'd prefer using, especially if you are new to pvp or endgame pve.

    Once you understand the ins and outs of both the pve and pvp of the game you can generally run any build you want, so long as the end result is the same; you win.

    Its easy to blame a loss in a pvp match on the person whose playing some thrown on experimental build. Like playing a minstrel support thief during a ranked match, when playing as a roamer/ decapper is thief way more useful. However, this kind of logic can be present anywhere no matter what you are doing unless its solo.

    Must also remember that GW2 is far more skill based, some builds easier than others. But if someone is running a metabattle build and has no idea on how to play it, and is facing someone who is running a off meta build but is way more skilled; the skilled player will always win.
    YashaX

    image
  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    That nonsense is why I finally gave up on raiding in WoW. EVERYONE ***HAS*** to be running exactly the same add on's of exactly the same version, and use them exactly the same way. Add ons and macros are a plague and should be a perma ban offense, as they are in some of the more reasonable games.

    At least part of the reason for the toxic nature of current gaming, is people forgetting that this is supposed to be FUN, and that fun is different things to different people.

    Yes, I know, some people may claim that using add on's is fun... I consider them to be Heretics from the One True Path of Fun... :)
    Viper482cadbury99AvarixSpottyGekkoSteelhelmMaddog666
    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Devs don't put enough effort or thought into
    their decisions,they are in this to quickly get games out to make money and NO other reason.
    Players don't ruin games,the developer does,if they design a game that allows players do whatever,cheat,be toxic,exploit,whatever it is all on the developer.
    Maddog666Necrosis_bear

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • shavashava Member UncommonPosts: 324
    "The meta" is always there for the fat part of the top of the bell curve -- the good average player. It's the people beyond who are excellent players and/or innovating their own builds who are actually the trailing bit of the bell curve who are going to be winners.

    But those folks get copied for their builds and that becomes "the meta," so unless they are really masters of form -- strategy, tactics, speed, reflex and intangibles that can't be put on a build sheet -- their advantage is eaten up quickly by imitators.

    In any game where depth strategy, tactics, and reaction time,... is of limited advantage (and pvp in GW arena is one of these -- teamwork isn't required either, per a eSports level MOBA, say), "the meta" is going to be a vast majority of your advantage.

    People who don't depend on "the meta" are usually "what's for dinner," unless they are really good. What's ruining PVP in GW arena (and a lot of games) is lack of dimension.

    That's also is a commercial benefit, if you think of it -- it keeps more people engaged. Arena can't become a spectator sport where a few people compete and others press their noses against the glass. Ranking is hard design, and a feeling of progression is vital in PVP, because people don't want to fight a harder opponent than an AI and always lose, so the lower ranks need some kind of -- something -- to keep people engaged.

    In terms of game design, wouldn't that be making sure that various builds depend on even matches and RNG on wins for balance? I wonder often enough if this isn't a feature in most games in terms of PVP balance design. A feature, not a bug, from the studio/dev POV.

    It's one of the reasons I don't play arena PVP much, or in GW and various popular games at all, although it's been a couple years, and I suppose it could have changed. But it doesn't sound like it, lol.

    Although to be brutally honest, I'm getting old (50s) and my twitch is aging out (I am your future, oh callow youths! :)
    maskedweaselMaddog666
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,820
    No, metabattle isn't ruining PvP. Not even close. Min maxing is something that will always happen, especially when competition is involved. If anything, it should happen. Competition thrives when everyone is playing at their peak.

    What is killing PvP, however, is a common problem in the gaming industry that crosses genres - the obsession with fast fights. Short ttk games are the opposite of nuanced, interesting gameplay, and they absolutely do not work with a control point game mode. 
    YashaXarbi15SteelhelmMaddog666Thupli
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    You are blaming a site that puts together suggestions of builds that work well in various parts of the game for the toxicity of certain players? Good one ;)
    ....
  • arbi15arbi15 Member UncommonPosts: 41
    not that i play ranked pvp in gw2 but rankeds are for people who want to rank up and since its a teamgame, everyone of your teammembers counts and you want them all to be as efficient and as strong as possible. if you dont like the competitive preassure of rankeds or only play to have fun, play normals.
    cause if you compete against players with the strongest and most efficient build, with your "fun build", eventually you will end up having a toxic team and getting stomped. and therefor you wont even be having fun but actually so pissed that you make posts on mmo websites.

    also look at it from their sight of view. they use the strongest builds and try hard to win their games cause their goal is to rank up on those ladders or get the goddamn rewardsl. then they get teamed up with some really weak players who dont even really try their best to win. then boom they get ranked down and the effort and the time was for nothing. of course its not everything black and white but you get what i mean.

    also note, i have no idea if any of the builds you mentioned are good or bad. i was just giving you an example of why ppl want you to pick from the better choices in competitive-ranked-teamgames
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 499

    arbi15 said:

    not that i play ranked pvp in gw2 but rankeds are for people who want to rank up and since its a teamgame, everyone of your teammembers counts and you want them all to be as efficient and as strong as possible. if you dont like the competitive preassure of rankeds or only play to have fun, play normals.

    cause if you compete against players with the strongest and most efficient build, with your "fun build", eventually you will end up having a toxic team and getting stomped. and therefor you wont even be having fun but actually so pissed that you make posts on mmo websites.



    also look at it from their sight of view. they use the strongest builds and try hard to win their games cause their goal is to rank up on those ladders or get the goddamn rewardsl. then they get teamed up with some really weak players who dont even really try their best to win. then boom they get ranked down and the effort and the time was for nothing. of course its not everything black and white but you get what i mean.



    also note, i have no idea if any of the builds you mentioned are good or bad. i was just giving you an example of why ppl want you to pick from the better choices in competitive-ranked-teamgames



    Sometimes the "strongest" build is just the easiest, fodder for the masses.
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,056
    Metabuilds are ruining all games in pve and pvp. We have games now that offer a gazillion builds, in which only a handful are accepted. Creativity and fun be damned. Miss the days before metas and parsers.
    maskedweaselTacticalZombeh
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • kusenokuseno Member CommonPosts: 1
    edited April 2018
    I disagree with this post. Metabattle ranks the builds who yield the best results when played at their 100%, if you as a player strive to fully realize your potential you should play with a build that allows you to do so. If you don't have such aspirations that's good too, there are many different gamemodes for many different players, but don't come into ranked with this mentality expecting everyone else to change theirs, that's just childish.
    PvP is entirely optional in GW2 and there are places where it can be a leisurely, hassle-free activity like unranked or custom, ranked is the only place where PvP becomes a competition, are you really complaining that people play to win in a competition ?
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Some people just don't want to think.

    I've found that in most MMOs, and specifically GW2 and Rift, that the 'meta' builds are decent, but not the best. ESO is another one. The 'meta' are just builds that everyone can easily play instantly without much effort.

    The best builds are wildly unknown or tailored to playstyle. I have a Mage build in Rift that destroys every other build I've seen, especially in PvP, and I'm sure there are plenty excellent ones that I don't know about too for all classes.

    Gamers need to understand that the best theorycrafters do 'not' share their findings. If you find a way to gain an advantage in a competitive situation, sharing it is stupid. If everyone is running around with 'the best'.. it isn't better than anything anymore. Plus, it'll just get nerfed.
    maskedweaselViper482Maddog666
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • AmounraAmounra Member UncommonPosts: 8
    System said:
    imageGuild Wars 2 - Metabattle is Ruining PvP in GW2 - MMORPG.com

    There’s an undercurrent of PvP fanatics in GW2 that believe there is only one correct way to play a class in structured PvP, and that’s the MetaBattle way. If you pray to the holy MetaBattle gods to tell you what to play, I have some startling news for you, you’re ruining PvP.

    Read the full story here


    That is just how it is now. Personally I just play how I like and ignore people that judge. I remember back in the day, when MMOs where new, there was no mod add-ons nor any place to look up content.  There were no builds. That was the fun of playing MMOs, you learnt the game with friends, and sometimes you would be on one boss for weeks just learning the mechanics. When you finally beat her/him it was the greatest feeling of accomplishment with good friends working together as a team. Not these days. At least I have the memories:) 
      
    hydrokid
  • The_Blue_RangerrThe_Blue_Rangerr Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Interesting, but completely misguided.

    To say that a website based on sharing builds and promoting good playstyles (as well as telling you how to play a build) RUINS a game mode is absurd.

    Outside of bronze, and maybe low silver, your 'player created' builds will be destroyed by anyone on these meta builds. That isn't a problem with Metabattle, its a problem with game balance. The builds Metabattle are putting as 'meta' are there because Legendary players, AT winners and monthly champs are running them to win, and the reason those high level players don't run MINION MANCERS (seriously, of all things, this is probably the worst example you could use) is because they will get destroyed for trying.

    To be competitive in a game that has serious balance issues, you need to play the OP things. Because otherwise someone else will, and they will demolish you. Unless there is a huge skill gap (see- the kind found in low levels) then overtuned builds will always come out ahead.

    Am i saying a professional player on staff ele won't destroy a rank 2 bunny rabbit player? of course not. But you put 2 high level players against each other, one on a meta build and one on (sigh) minion mancer? It's going to be an absolute stomp in favour of the meta builds.
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member RarePosts: 1,530
    Efficiency happens regardless of the game. Laziness will happen regardless of game.
Sign In or Register to comment.