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World of Warcraft - Leveling the New Old-Fashioned Way - Pros & Woes - MMORPG.com

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  • aCi11i3saCi11i3s Member UncommonPosts: 54
    If you don’t feel stronger by level 110, then you’re doing it wrong. I absolutely love the new leveling system. Enjoying quest lines, spending time exploring areas, and my favorite...not sprinting through dungeons. It forces everyone in the group to use their class as inteded. Interrupts, stuns, cc, and mechanics play a part at all levels, and sometimes even forces pugs to communicate. Awesome. Sure it’s difficult to make this perfect since the game has so much content and been out for so long, but it’s exactly what WoW has needed for a long time.
    MrMelGibson
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,978
    I haven't made the time to level a new character since 7.3.5, but it has to be better than the way it was before scaling.  Before scaling I had to cap my experience if I wanted to finish a zone without everything going green.  But given that I haven't yet dived into the new system myself I don't really know how much I'll like it yet.  Having said that, this makes no sense to me:

    "Let’s also not forget that the story is utterly broken with the new system. Gone are the days where players worked through the story as it progresses in lore, the history of Azeroth, as it were. While many players don’t care, an equal number do and, to be honest, new players should care. With leveling as it is, the “coherent” narrative that is World of Warcraft is utterly trashed."

    How?  If a character wants to progress through the story in a linear fashion, all the bread crumbs are there.  It's only mixed up if a player decides to skip around, and I think it's great that it is there a choice to do so now.  What is stopping anyone from playing through the content in the same order they did before 7.3.5?  The answer is: nothing.  Nothing is stopping them so I don't see a problem there.
    I was leveling as a newbie on a new server before 7.3.5 and after. For me, after 7.3.5 is way better. It has also brought out different issues than before. Some issues were solved by this, specifically pacing. Other flaws stand out, like class, content, and gear tuning. On top of that drops are boring and that stands out more because the pacing is different.

    I think scaling is a vast improvement. I think they need to take a hard look at the rough spots that has exposed and do what Blizzard does and make it work right (whatever that means).
    MrMelGibson
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
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  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    Torval said:
    I haven't made the time to level a new character since 7.3.5, but it has to be better than the way it was before scaling.  Before scaling I had to cap my experience if I wanted to finish a zone without everything going green.  But given that I haven't yet dived into the new system myself I don't really know how much I'll like it yet.  Having said that, this makes no sense to me:

    "Let’s also not forget that the story is utterly broken with the new system. Gone are the days where players worked through the story as it progresses in lore, the history of Azeroth, as it were. While many players don’t care, an equal number do and, to be honest, new players should care. With leveling as it is, the “coherent” narrative that is World of Warcraft is utterly trashed."

    How?  If a character wants to progress through the story in a linear fashion, all the bread crumbs are there.  It's only mixed up if a player decides to skip around, and I think it's great that it is there a choice to do so now.  What is stopping anyone from playing through the content in the same order they did before 7.3.5?  The answer is: nothing.  Nothing is stopping them so I don't see a problem there.
    I was leveling as a newbie on a new server before 7.3.5 and after. For me, after 7.3.5 is way better. It has also brought out different issues than before. Some issues were solved by this, specifically pacing. Other flaws stand out, like class, content, and gear tuning. On top of that drops are boring and that stands out more because the pacing is different.

    I think scaling is a vast improvement. I think they need to take a hard look at the rough spots that has exposed and do what Blizzard does and make it work right (whatever that means).
    I really need to try it for myself.

    The thing about the ability pruning .... I can see how that would be a problem.  Suzie may have a point there.  Hopefully, Blizzard will address it in the run up to Battle for Azeroth.
    TorvalMrMelGibson
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Dvora said:
    Called this one from day one. Level scaling is a cheap cop out that ruins progression, and MMO = (social) & progression. ESO and now WOW crapped their pants with this one. If I could take my daily crap on Blizzard's front doorstep or on the desk of the guy that decided to do this, I would return the favor every day for the next year.

    IMO wow already had plenty of low lvl zones to level in, and I could slow down and or turn off exp if I so chose, to avoid outleveling any zone i was particularly interested in. Run the other zones next character.

    I would never come back to WOW and create a new character now.

    Also wtf who is in charge of fixing this editor. I have to use HTML to get it to show paragraphs again now? Seems like this is broken every other week. Maybe it is just the feature comments editor that is separate from the forums post editor.
    I agree that it is a cheap cop out but not for the same reasons.

    Wow has an enourmous powergap, both with levels and gear. That is really the problem, it layers up the playerbase in a zillion of layers that can't really play with the ones over or under it which splits up the playerbase rather horrible.

    It doesn't really ruin progression since you still have your power in the correct zone, it is just that you can't autokill anything below you. You still progress after all.

    However, what Wow really should do is to revamp it's level system, who needs 110 levels anyways? Start by cutting the number of levels in half (at least).  Then lower the powergap and the gear power. 55 levels would not make the game less fun.

    I am not really against downleveling as such but I don't think it really is what Wow need at the moment, at least not as much as fixing the entire levelsystem. It is not like people bothered to go to grey zones before anyways so I don't see what people loses on the mechanics, now if you want to you could go back or you could just skip it like you would anyways without the mechanic.
    SedrynTyroswandericaJeleena
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    Loke666 said:
    Dvora said:
    Called this one from day one. Level scaling is a cheap cop out that ruins progression, and MMO = (social) & progression. ESO and now WOW crapped their pants with this one. If I could take my daily crap on Blizzard's front doorstep or on the desk of the guy that decided to do this, I would return the favor every day for the next year.

    IMO wow already had plenty of low lvl zones to level in, and I could slow down and or turn off exp if I so chose, to avoid outleveling any zone i was particularly interested in. Run the other zones next character.

    I would never come back to WOW and create a new character now.

    Also wtf who is in charge of fixing this editor. I have to use HTML to get it to show paragraphs again now? Seems like this is broken every other week. Maybe it is just the feature comments editor that is separate from the forums post editor.
    I agree that it is a cheap cop out but not for the same reasons.

    Wow has an enourmous powergap, both with levels and gear. That is really the problem, it layers up the playerbase in a zillion of layers that can't really play with the ones over or under it which splits up the playerbase rather horrible.

    It doesn't really ruin progression since you still have your power in the correct zone, it is just that you can't autokill anything below you. You still progress after all.

    However, what Wow really should do is to revamp it's level system, who needs 110 levels anyways? Start by cutting the number of levels in half (at least).  Then lower the powergap and the gear power. 55 levels would not make the game less fun.

    I am not really against downleveling as such but I don't think it really is what Wow need at the moment, at least not as much as fixing the entire levelsystem. It is not like people bothered to go to grey zones before anyways so I don't see what people loses on the mechanics, now if you want to you could go back or you could just skip it like you would anyways without the mechanic.
    I agree with both your points; the level range and the gear power gap is way out of hand.  Even within the Legion expansion I think the power gap is too large in terms of the difference between a new player and a fully geared one.
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 1,426
    prob gonna stick with ESO
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,147
    Leveling in Zones isn't bad, dungeons are a bit rough. The gear is alright but pretty sporadic if you're leveling up questing without heirlooms. Leveling as a whole is a lot slower than what I'm used too. 1-60 is still kind of boring, if there was a main quest line to follow it could be different buts everything is mixed up. 

    My issue with leveling these days is 0 progression, I really do miss talents even after they've been gone so long, now I have nothing to really look forward too as I level up. 
    Albatroes
  • SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerMMORPG.COM Staff LegendaryPosts: 32,918
    Aori said:
    Leveling in Zones isn't bad, dungeons are a bit rough. The gear is alright but pretty sporadic if you're leveling up questing without heirlooms. Leveling as a whole is a lot slower than what I'm used too. 1-60 is still kind of boring, if there was a main quest line to follow it could be different buts everything is mixed up. 

    My issue with leveling these days is 0 progression, I really do miss talents even after they've been gone so long, now I have nothing to really look forward too as I level up. 
    Yep, this exactly. I wish they'd do the SWTOR thing and clearly mark the main story quests throughout and that players could level to 100 just doing those without the side quests. I'm not sure, however, if that would work with WoW?

    I do love the pace and, tbh, it's more the missing abilities and talents that glare forth in the journey. It's just kind of sad when taken in totality.

    The new leveling is a step in the right direction. It needs a lot of tuning, though most of that would be tuning classes and I think everyone here understands that they tune for end game raiding, not Little Bobby Jones's level 20 Nightborne. :D


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • winghaven1winghaven1 Member RarePosts: 693
    Dumb article really because despite whatever you say against it. The way it was before was that every single zone was a ghost town. Now it isn't. They are revitalizing the whole levelling experience so both veteran and newbies get to see each other frequently as they're actively encouraged to level traditionally.

    The cop-out was the levelling boost. Now they've tried to change face about their philosophy. It used to be that they'd try to make it as easy as possible to get to the endgame which they considered at the time of several expansions the height of the game alone and what came before is simply the treadmill to get to. Nowadays, they want to make the experience from day 1 as in level 1 relevant. This is how they do it.
  • LeighDidItLeighDidIt Member UncommonPosts: 17
    I began my journey with World of Warcraft back in 2010 and fell in love with the game. I am not much of a battleground, pvp or raid type of player. Instead I focused on quests, an occasional dungeon and leveling my professions. I eagerly awaited MOP and love that content and area to this day. Grinding out my levels was an accepted and in most cases enjoyable task to accomplish. Then came Draenor and WoW was broken in my opinion. I ended up canceling my subscription because of the never ending grind to make levels and accomplish tasks. I came back to try my hand at Legion but after max leveling my favorite character I again gave up the game in disgust. With all the hype and promotional information being put out about the newest expansion I figured I would try things out and resubscribed last month. I leveled a new Alt to 110 and really tried to get engaged with the game, the lore and the story line but was unable to fully commit to pre-purchasing the new expansion simply because, as you have pointed out ,the game has become boring. I feel the focus of the game is not in the continuation of a fantastic story via quests and exploration but a game that is heavily invested in raids, pvp and battle grounds. The professions are still a boring grind. I used to get a thrill every time I unlocked a new recipe for my jewelcrafter or inscriptionist but not now. The whole focus of the game is centered around the players artifact weapon. When one needs billions and billions of points to complete the weapon the whole game becomes a never ending disappointment. I realize long running games change and that point is even more evident when the developers of the game leave and new decision makers enter the story. This is very evident by the focus and direction WOW has taken in the last two expansions. Hence the reason I have moved on to other venues for my entertainment.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    I began my journey with World of Warcraft back in 2010 and fell in love with the game. I am not much of a battleground, pvp or raid type of player. Instead I focused on quests, an occasional dungeon and leveling my professions. I eagerly awaited MOP and love that content and area to this day. Grinding out my levels was an accepted and in most cases enjoyable task to accomplish. Then came Draenor and WoW was broken in my opinion. I ended up canceling my subscription because of the never ending grind to make levels and accomplish tasks. I came back to try my hand at Legion but after max leveling my favorite character I again gave up the game in disgust. With all the hype and promotional information being put out about the newest expansion I figured I would try things out and resubscribed last month. I leveled a new Alt to 110 and really tried to get engaged with the game, the lore and the story line but was unable to fully commit to pre-purchasing the new expansion simply because, as you have pointed out ,the game has become boring. I feel the focus of the game is not in the continuation of a fantastic story via quests and exploration but a game that is heavily invested in raids, pvp and battle grounds. The professions are still a boring grind. I used to get a thrill every time I unlocked a new recipe for my jewelcrafter or inscriptionist but not now. The whole focus of the game is centered around the players artifact weapon. When one needs billions and billions of points to complete the weapon the whole game becomes a never ending disappointment. I realize long running games change and that point is even more evident when the developers of the game leave and new decision makers enter the story. This is very evident by the focus and direction WOW has taken in the last two expansions. Hence the reason I have moved on to other venues for my entertainment.
    Most veteran players I've spoken to consider pre-Cataclysm to be the "old WoW" and post-Cataclysm to be the "new WoW".  But recently I came the realization that Warlords of Draenor represents the beginning of a "new, new WoW", if you will.  The questionable handling of pruning abilities and the addition of the Command Table horseshit are a couple of examples of the new direction.  I still find ways to enjoy myself in the current the game but there's definitely parts of it that have been headed the wrong direction since WoD.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,978
    Torval said:
    I haven't made the time to level a new character since 7.3.5, but it has to be better than the way it was before scaling.  Before scaling I had to cap my experience if I wanted to finish a zone without everything going green.  But given that I haven't yet dived into the new system myself I don't really know how much I'll like it yet.  Having said that, this makes no sense to me:

    "Let’s also not forget that the story is utterly broken with the new system. Gone are the days where players worked through the story as it progresses in lore, the history of Azeroth, as it were. While many players don’t care, an equal number do and, to be honest, new players should care. With leveling as it is, the “coherent” narrative that is World of Warcraft is utterly trashed."

    How?  If a character wants to progress through the story in a linear fashion, all the bread crumbs are there.  It's only mixed up if a player decides to skip around, and I think it's great that it is there a choice to do so now.  What is stopping anyone from playing through the content in the same order they did before 7.3.5?  The answer is: nothing.  Nothing is stopping them so I don't see a problem there.
    I was leveling as a newbie on a new server before 7.3.5 and after. For me, after 7.3.5 is way better. It has also brought out different issues than before. Some issues were solved by this, specifically pacing. Other flaws stand out, like class, content, and gear tuning. On top of that drops are boring and that stands out more because the pacing is different.

    I think scaling is a vast improvement. I think they need to take a hard look at the rough spots that has exposed and do what Blizzard does and make it work right (whatever that means).
    I really need to try it for myself.

    The thing about the ability pruning .... I can see how that would be a problem.  Suzie may have a point there.  Hopefully, Blizzard will address it in the run up to Battle for Azeroth.
    I think Suzie's point about ability pruning is exactly the heart of the issue. If you think of it like a flowering bush, the branches leading up are sparse with flower and when you get to the crown of the plant it's flush. That's the way classes and builds have been tuned in my opinion.

    I feel like Rift Prime suffers from this exact issue as well. I went from leveling my warlock in WoW (he's 52 now) to leveling a mage in Prime. It's not the game play (wow-cline) because they play ver differently. It's how and where skills and traits are tuned along with equipment, AA, and elite skill synergies. All of that is missing or just the barest of bones during the leveling process.

    That's my perception of the problem anyway and how I can relate to what Suzie is saying. My situation is a lot different because I have no heirloom gear. I have quest and dropped gear. What I find problematic is the disparity in the experience between rolling an alt and a new character on a server.
    SedrynTyros
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
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  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    I went back and tried this just to see if it felt different. It did feel different--it felt even more tedious, because --as the article stated--there's nothing really to look forward to. I had my Nightborne hunter, but the class has been so gutted over the past several expansions it just isn't fun to play. Nothing to look forward--by level 50 I had most of my core skills, and thinking of doing another 60 levels like that? No.

    As for "reading the quests"--I have done those quests so many times I don't -care- to read them. And it's not like Blizzard is known for stellar writing, ESPECIALLY with the old world content. Cata -crapped- on a lot of the mystery and fun of "old Azeroth" and made most of it slapstick stupid. So no, I don't care to "slow down and read the quests"...again. For the 50 billionth time.

    Level scaling CAN work. ESO has a lot of issues, but the level scaling there works. Why? More interesting quest lines, for one...and you still have SOMETHING to look forward to when you level. A few points to slap into a new skill or passive, some new points to buff your basic attributes, etc. GW2, too, does it better than WoW, though I still prefer ESO's approach. Again, in GW2, you have something to look forward to each level--something to work for, as minor as those little points may be.

    Before they completely scrapped the old skill tree system for this new "play how you want!!" (what a joke--builds are more cookie-cutter than ever now, and you have to wait 15 levels between lackluster, boring passives) thing, where less was supposed to be more, but is really just LESS.

    The old super-fast leveling wasn't fun, either. Leveling in WoW (for me) hasn't been fun since Cata. Now, not only is it dull, it's SLOWER and dull.

    I burnt out at level 50. No thanks--I'll check out BFA for a few weeks on my 110s, but I'm not slogging through 110 levels of this crap.
    Golelorn

    image
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    aCi11i3s said:
    If you don’t feel stronger by level 110, then you’re doing it wrong.
    Um, that wasn't the point at all

    Do you feel stronger and did you unlock fun new skills say every ten levels?  Or does it feel pretty much the same until you hit the cap and get real progression?
    wandericaTorval
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,190
    WoW leveling feels boring and uneventful because you dont get new abilities or talents every level like you did back in the old days. But, there is also a problem with that - if you got new abilities and talents every level while leveling it would have dire ramifications at max level?

    Could you imagine the horror of what the game would be like they never got rid of the vanilla talent system or if they didnt prune abilities?

    Classes having 50+ abilities would be an absolute nightmare. And just the thought of having 101 talents points to distribute makes me want to retch.

    Random forum posters do not comprehend cause and effect and unfortunately game developers sometimes foolishly take the advice of random forum posters which has led us to this current situation.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,382
    Unless you are new to the game why in the world would you level another character?  Especially since you have to go to 110.  The legendary nonsense just ruined it for me.  The constant need to repeat dungeons over and over again.  The game has become worse than some Asian games.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    Xiaoki said:
    WoW leveling feels boring and uneventful because you dont get new abilities or talents every level like you did back in the old days. But, there is also a problem with that - if you got new abilities and talents every level while leveling it would have dire ramifications at max level?

    Could you imagine the horror of what the game would be like they never got rid of the vanilla talent system or if they didnt prune abilities?

    Classes having 50+ abilities would be an absolute nightmare. And just the thought of having 101 talents points to distribute makes me want to retch.

    Random forum posters do not comprehend cause and effect and unfortunately game developers sometimes foolishly take the advice of random forum posters which has led us to this current situation.
    The "cause" is that there are now 110, and will soon be 120, levels.  It's unnecessary and ridiculous to keep raising the level cap with each expansion and rendering 95% of the content for the previous expansion obsolete. 

    There are other ways to expand a MMO without using continual vertical progression and suffering the accompanying problems caused by that design, in this case ability bloat followed by lack of abilities after a pruning, and the implementation of scaling to try to address broken leveling.  It all stems from this obscene number of character levels and I'm surprised that the people running the game at Blizzard haven't faced that problem yet.  It was a mistake to raise the level cap from 60 to 70 with The Burning Crusade and it's been a mistake every time they've done it since.

    Blizzard had done a stat squish in Warlords of Draenor and will be doing another in Battle for Azeroth, along with an item-level squish to address their absurd ep33n ilevel design in Legion (so ridiculous, so unnecessary, so stupid).  They should consider dropping the game back to 60 levels and leaving it there indefinitely, opting to build out the game horizontally going forward with each expansion and including only a slight vertical gear progression each time they grow the game.  If they'd grown the game horizontally to begin with, these problems everyone is complaining about wouldn't exist.
    TorvalMadFrenchieTheAmir
  • t0nydt0nyd Member UncommonPosts: 504
    I dislike how character design has evolved in most MMORPG. I feel as if choice doesn't exist. You either get overloaded with abilities, most of which you don't want or need, or the game gives you such a small number of abilities that you feel like you are playing a moba.

    I'd rather choose my abilities. I'd rather have the choice of what I take and how far I take them. Maybe I want a character with 16 abilities or maybe I want one with 8 more powerful abilities. Nope. Here are your abilities, the game chooses for you...
    Torval
  • DturtleDturtle Member UncommonPosts: 3
    If this was done on my 2nd-5th other classes alts than my main I might just enjoy it, or not i don't know. But after leveling 11 classes to 100 in the past. and again to 110. I can say leveling another alt from 20 - 110 can wait or won't happen at all.

    Currently Leveling a void elf monk (66) and lightforged draenei warrior (70), and I already feel exhausted, dragged, and unmotivated, everything feels so slow, I can't tell whether the scalling, the skill sets, the gameplay, dungeons or probably everything. All these just for the sake of 1 achievement and an armor set (per race) that can only be used by the default race. Losing the carrot here. And these are just the 1st two of alliance races. I know they are releasing another bunch of new races on actual expac release.

    Can't Imagine if Blizzard would offer us another sets of achievements and armour just to fresh level all the new races, lol. It's a no no for me. Might be a good catch for people starting to play in draenor or legion or even pandaria, but not for old timers who had hundreds of alts in the past I guess. Good luck to you guys.
    SBFordTheAmir
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,566
    It sounds like the Auther's woes are tied more to abilities than the new levelling system. That's a symptom of WoW's dumbing down of the talent trees more than anything else. It's the same problem I've had with the game for several expansions. The old 31 point talent trees were far better and afforded a much wider range of options for how you built your character. Add the pruning of rotation abilities and it's no wonder things feel underwhelming.

    This is an old problem, not a new one.
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,061
    It sounds like the Auther's woes are tied more to abilities than the new levelling system. That's a symptom of WoW's dumbing down of the talent trees more than anything else. It's the same problem I've had with the game for several expansions. The old 31 point talent trees were far better and afforded a much wider range of options for how you built your character. Add the pruning of rotation abilities and it's no wonder things feel underwhelming.

    This is an old problem, not a new one.

    Options on how you built your character....there was only ever a few viable options. 
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 929
    "The Pace is Great"

    Keep drinking that koolaid.

    They will sell more level boosts than ever, except to those RPers who want Heritage Armor.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,008
    aCi11i3s said:
    If you don’t feel stronger by level 110, then you’re doing it wrong. I absolutely love the new leveling system. Enjoying quest lines, spending time exploring areas, and my favorite...not sprinting through dungeons. It forces everyone in the group to use their class as inteded. Interrupts, stuns, cc, and mechanics play a part at all levels, and sometimes even forces pugs to communicate. Awesome. Sure it’s difficult to make this perfect since the game has so much content and been out for so long, but it’s exactly what WoW has needed for a long time.
    quests are lol zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz garbage and boring.

    Play your class as intended,yeah because there is so much choice lol

    scaling removes ANY immersion the mobs and world have and then if you are going to start scaling you need to allow players to scale so they can be of equal level as their friends but Blizzard wouldn't understand friends or grouping because they are a single player game designer.

    I can look just at Hunter pets,they are pretty much 99% automated where as in FFXI they are anything but and have way more abilities and YOU have way more control over your pet as well.

    Blizzard does a poor job of designing classes and combat and questing for xp is lol..NO CLUE what they are doing.Weapon skills, dodging skills,accuracy where is it?No clue how to design a game,they just slop in a bunch of quests and automate where the mobs get jotted down on the map and cal it a mmorpg.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 929

    Horusra said:

    Once you have leveled through any system a few times they all get boring and tedious and you just want to get where you want to be faster.  Same as traveling the same route multiple times in the real world, you just want to get there.



    I don't agree. I think this happens mostly with Quest Hub games because the leveling is tied too much to the story that it becomes like reading the same book over and over again. Your character itself doesn't really matter, so it doesn't really change. They've removed most character-based progression stuff from the lower levels in an attempt to make it as easy as possible for newer players.

    In grindy games, at least you have new places to grind in later updates, and a plethora of choices when the game has been out for 10+ years. Lineage II is awful, in a general sense, but I get a LOT less boring grinding MOBs in that game than I do leveling in any Quest Hub game (WoW, FFXIV, AoC, etc.).

    Also, ability pruning has made it more boring to level. There are a lot less character, tactics, etc. to discover. They give you the end-game skills at low level now - so that carrot dangling at the end of the old Talent System doesn't exist. They destroyed the Talent Trees, so there is a TON less variety in builds and play styles between characters. It just feels like menial labor, now. It's not the same as it used to be. There is really nothing to look forward to other than another level, and they don't mean much since it's still stupid easy to level - it just takes considerably longer than it did before this patch. This annoys people.

    For Example: Remember when you leveled a Warlock and there were Quests to unlock your demons and mounts? Yea, those are gone.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Horusra said:
    It sounds like the Auther's woes are tied more to abilities than the new levelling system. That's a symptom of WoW's dumbing down of the talent trees more than anything else. It's the same problem I've had with the game for several expansions. The old 31 point talent trees were far better and afforded a much wider range of options for how you built your character. Add the pruning of rotation abilities and it's no wonder things feel underwhelming.

    This is an old problem, not a new one.

    Options on how you built your character....there was only ever a few viable options. 
    Define viable.  If you mean end-game raiding, you won't ever alleviate that.  Raiders are generally also the theorycrafters and min/maxers.  Good luck creating numerous builds within a class that all have the exact same damage/heal/mitigation output.  So long as one of them are superior, that will be the "viable" build for high-end raiding.

    I played a Ret Paladin at release and was well able to contribute, though I doubt I would've made a whole lot of raid rosters.
    SBFordTorval

    image
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