For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No matter the reasoning for not having an investor.... It's not a good sign.
Either investors don't believe the concepts will be appealing to gamers in the wild, or he isn't getting the interest he claims. End result is the same: investors are not interested in Caspian's game.
No matter the reasoning for not having an investor.... It's not a good sign.
Either investors don't believe the concepts will be appealing to gamers in the wild, or he isn't getting the interest he claims. End result is the same: investors are not interested in Caspian's game.
Likely they will want to see more discernable progress on the game's development as well as more details on how it proposes to recover it's costs and show a profit post launch before buying in.
But hey, if they can keep the money rolling in from backers over the next few years there may be no need, or at least not any time soon.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh, hey, thanks for reposting this. I had forgotten Caspian already settled this debate for us when Slap pointed out he said,
"it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle - regardless of whether it's true or not."
People are also free to read the 6 pages of round and round we went through the last time, which I think some would agree was won by @Kajidourden with his insightful retort,
"If you have to try this hard to explain how something isn't one thing, it probably is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm, and as I recall this was your opinion then. Just an example of how wishy-washy opinions are in these forums.
Kyleran Said:
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
ugh, i thought this was a big name MMO. but i guess its another cash shop game
There are absolutely no plans, nor intentions to implement a cash shop into CoE once the game has launched. The only reasons for any kind of a cash shop before launch is because SBS is currently a crowd-funded game. (People supporting the game are made fully aware of the fact that anything they have purchased can be lost once the game launches) They chose crowd-funding because the investors/publishers they spoke with wanted the implementation of Cash Shops and/or Sub Fees; features that SBS feels very strongly about not wanting to implement into their game.
They seem to be confident in the pay-for-life model that was originally created for the concept of the game and are refusing to be forced into any other structure, just to obtain outside funding...
They didn't have to monetize development through what is possibly the most extreme form of p2w I have ever seen. There are other kickstarter mmos out there that have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power.
The whole project would look vastly better if they had not decided to go down this p2w route in the first place.
The game wouldn't exist if the they didn't offer packages.... Didn't really think that one through did ya.
Well first the game doesn't actually exist; second thanks for finally acknowledging that the backer "packages" are massively p2w. But that aside, like it says in the post you quoted, other kickstarter mmos that are actually further along in development than CoE have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power, i.e. the "packages" they offer do not give backers enormous advantages in exchange for money.
Any game that goes down this extreme p2w path for backers that CoE has chosen is going to get hammered, that's just reality. I think it would have been better for everyone if they had side-stepped the issue entirely by offering backers "packages" that were not p2w in the extreme. I mean some mild form of p2w is to be expected, but this is on a completely different level to what we see in most mmos (xp pots, mounts, cosmetics, status symbols, and the like).
To cutoff the lame expected response you should just call it Pay for Advantage. Otherwise you trigger the silly defense of “Its an MMORPG you can’t win!”
OMG, you truly are prophetic. The last 2 pages have been filled with exactly that. Sad.
ugh, i thought this was a big name MMO. but i guess its another cash shop game
There are absolutely no plans, nor intentions to implement a cash shop into CoE once the game has launched. The only reasons for any kind of a cash shop before launch is because SBS is currently a crowd-funded game. (People supporting the game are made fully aware of the fact that anything they have purchased can be lost once the game launches) They chose crowd-funding because the investors/publishers they spoke with wanted the implementation of Cash Shops and/or Sub Fees; features that SBS feels very strongly about not wanting to implement into their game.
They seem to be confident in the pay-for-life model that was originally created for the concept of the game and are refusing to be forced into any other structure, just to obtain outside funding...
They didn't have to monetize development through what is possibly the most extreme form of p2w I have ever seen. There are other kickstarter mmos out there that have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power.
The whole project would look vastly better if they had not decided to go down this p2w route in the first place.
The game wouldn't exist if the they didn't offer packages.... Didn't really think that one through did ya.
Well first the game doesn't actually exist; second thanks for finally acknowledging that the backer "packages" are massively p2w. But that aside, like it says in the post you quoted, other kickstarter mmos that are actually further along in development than CoE have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power, i.e. the "packages" they offer do not give backers enormous advantages in exchange for money.
Any game that goes down this extreme p2w path for backers that CoE has chosen is going to get hammered, that's just reality. I think it would have been better for everyone if they had side-stepped the issue entirely by offering backers "packages" that were not p2w in the extreme. I mean some mild form of p2w is to be expected, but this is on a completely different level to what we see in most mmos (xp pots, mounts, cosmetics, status symbols, and the like).
To cutoff the lame expected response you should just call it Pay for Advantage. Otherwise you trigger the silly defense of “Its an MMORPG you can’t win!”
OMG, you truly are prophetic. The last 2 pages have been filled with exactly that. Sad.
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For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think the whiny cries of P2W or Pay for Advantage, fail to really grasp the intensity of the advantage.
If the "advantage" is a 10% exp boost for example, unless they play as much as you do, and grind as hard, it's not an advantage, as you can outstrip their progress.
The next question of course, is does the Advantage directly affect you. If someone can get a 10% exp boost, this does not directly hurt or hinder you. So the Advantage is not an Advantage over you, as it does not affect you.
Now, of course in purely PvE games, "Pay 4 Advantage" is totally irrelevant, as someone having better gear then you only contributes and enhances your game experience if you group with them. The same as joining any group with far more experienced players would help your game.
Only in a PvP game does this really matter at all.
No doubt that CoE is a PvP game. So it kinda matters. But again, buying a crown does not make a player personally more powerful then anyone else, buying land, buying a house, buying a horse, or chain mail bikini or whatever.. none of this confers a real "Advantage" as you can beat/kill them the same as you could anyone else.
I guess it comes down to what bothers you, some people get bent out of whack if someone so much as gets 1% faster exp then they do in a PvE game, and cries P2W,. I''m embarrassed to say.. I have heard more petty reasons.
For me.. it needs to directly affect me, it needs to give them a direct advantage over me that I have no way to overcome, and more so, their advantage can lead to my loss.
Using Evony, when someone defeated me, I lost troops, resources and fortifications, so taking a loss was a direct loss to my progress and could set me back days and weeks. The P2W in Evony made it so that I could buy back all those loses in a button click, and be as if I never lost. Equally so, I could buy better Resources, Fortifications, and Troops then I could earn in game.
But the real part was, I could spend money to just overpower any opponent, I could flatly buy more power then they had, and defeat them. I could also buy more defenses then they could overcome and be interminable to them. It was just a matter of how much I was willing to spend and I could defeat anyone.
That is why P2W was an issue, it is a pure as the name. Now.. "Advantages".. that's more a sliding scale.. it depends on the advantage, how it affects me, how it affects them.. etc etc.. there are factors involved.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Hmm, and as I recall this was your opinion then. Just an example of how wishy-washy opinions are in these forums.
Kyleran Said:
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
What was your point? I have a fairly high P2W threshold and like @Ungood I don't let it bother me.
Recall I've been advocating for the continuation of the PFA cash shop items post release, so I'd say I'm pretty consistent.
As for my most recent post it was mostly to point out you aren't very good at linking things which support your arguments, but rather the positions of the other side.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ugh, i thought this was a big name MMO. but i guess its another cash shop game
There are absolutely no plans, nor intentions to implement a cash shop into CoE once the game has launched. The only reasons for any kind of a cash shop before launch is because SBS is currently a crowd-funded game. (People supporting the game are made fully aware of the fact that anything they have purchased can be lost once the game launches) They chose crowd-funding because the investors/publishers they spoke with wanted the implementation of Cash Shops and/or Sub Fees; features that SBS feels very strongly about not wanting to implement into their game.
They seem to be confident in the pay-for-life model that was originally created for the concept of the game and are refusing to be forced into any other structure, just to obtain outside funding...
They didn't have to monetize development through what is possibly the most extreme form of p2w I have ever seen. There are other kickstarter mmos out there that have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power.
The whole project would look vastly better if they had not decided to go down this p2w route in the first place.
The game wouldn't exist if the they didn't offer packages.... Didn't really think that one through did ya.
Well first the game doesn't actually exist; second thanks for finally acknowledging that the backer "packages" are massively p2w. But that aside, like it says in the post you quoted, other kickstarter mmos that are actually further along in development than CoE have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power, i.e. the "packages" they offer do not give backers enormous advantages in exchange for money.
Any game that goes down this extreme p2w path for backers that CoE has chosen is going to get hammered, that's just reality. I think it would have been better for everyone if they had side-stepped the issue entirely by offering backers "packages" that were not p2w in the extreme. I mean some mild form of p2w is to be expected, but this is on a completely different level to what we see in most mmos (xp pots, mounts, cosmetics, status symbols, and the like).
To cutoff the lame expected response you should just call it Pay for Advantage. Otherwise you trigger the silly defense of “Its an MMORPG you can’t win!”
OMG, you truly are prophetic. The last 2 pages have been filled with exactly that. Sad.
[mod edit]
Ah yes, I expect no less from the lovely CoE community.
ugh, i thought this was a big name MMO. but i guess its another cash shop game
There are absolutely no plans, nor intentions to implement a cash shop into CoE once the game has launched. The only reasons for any kind of a cash shop before launch is because SBS is currently a crowd-funded game. (People supporting the game are made fully aware of the fact that anything they have purchased can be lost once the game launches) They chose crowd-funding because the investors/publishers they spoke with wanted the implementation of Cash Shops and/or Sub Fees; features that SBS feels very strongly about not wanting to implement into their game.
They seem to be confident in the pay-for-life model that was originally created for the concept of the game and are refusing to be forced into any other structure, just to obtain outside funding...
They didn't have to monetize development through what is possibly the most extreme form of p2w I have ever seen. There are other kickstarter mmos out there that have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power.
The whole project would look vastly better if they had not decided to go down this p2w route in the first place.
The game wouldn't exist if the they didn't offer packages.... Didn't really think that one through did ya.
Well first the game doesn't actually exist; second thanks for finally acknowledging that the backer "packages" are massively p2w. But that aside, like it says in the post you quoted, other kickstarter mmos that are actually further along in development than CoE have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power, i.e. the "packages" they offer do not give backers enormous advantages in exchange for money.
Any game that goes down this extreme p2w path for backers that CoE has chosen is going to get hammered, that's just reality. I think it would have been better for everyone if they had side-stepped the issue entirely by offering backers "packages" that were not p2w in the extreme. I mean some mild form of p2w is to be expected, but this is on a completely different level to what we see in most mmos (xp pots, mounts, cosmetics, status symbols, and the like).
To cutoff the lame expected response you should just call it Pay for Advantage. Otherwise you trigger the silly defense of “Its an MMORPG you can’t win!”
OMG, you truly are prophetic. The last 2 pages have been filled with exactly that. Sad.
[mod edit]
Ah yes, I expect no less from the lovely CoE community.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm, and as I recall this was your opinion then. Just an example of how wishy-washy opinions are in these forums.
Kyleran Said:
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
What was your point? I have a fairly high P2W threshold and like @Ungood I don't let it bother me.
Recall I've been advocating for the continuation of the PFA cash shop items post release, so I'd say I'm pretty consistent.
As for my most recent post it was mostly to point out you aren't very good at linking things which support your arguments, but rather the positions of the other side.
You just did it again BTW.
Support my argument? What was my argument? I did nothing but post a link as an indication that the p2w topic is well worn out. Being brought up over and over again in every single thread. I mean really can't folks find anything else to talk about.
In addition, just because there are a couple of posts in that thread that you happen to focus on, doesn't mean there is not a lot of opposing ideas put forth.
How many times do you guys need to beat a dead horse?
ugh, i thought this was a big name MMO. but i guess its another cash shop game
There are absolutely no plans, nor intentions to implement a cash shop into CoE once the game has launched. The only reasons for any kind of a cash shop before launch is because SBS is currently a crowd-funded game. (People supporting the game are made fully aware of the fact that anything they have purchased can be lost once the game launches) They chose crowd-funding because the investors/publishers they spoke with wanted the implementation of Cash Shops and/or Sub Fees; features that SBS feels very strongly about not wanting to implement into their game.
They seem to be confident in the pay-for-life model that was originally created for the concept of the game and are refusing to be forced into any other structure, just to obtain outside funding...
They didn't have to monetize development through what is possibly the most extreme form of p2w I have ever seen. There are other kickstarter mmos out there that have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power.
The whole project would look vastly better if they had not decided to go down this p2w route in the first place.
The game wouldn't exist if the they didn't offer packages.... Didn't really think that one through did ya.
Well first the game doesn't actually exist; second thanks for finally acknowledging that the backer "packages" are massively p2w. But that aside, like it says in the post you quoted, other kickstarter mmos that are actually further along in development than CoE have not tied crowd funding to selling massive in-game power, i.e. the "packages" they offer do not give backers enormous advantages in exchange for money.
Any game that goes down this extreme p2w path for backers that CoE has chosen is going to get hammered, that's just reality. I think it would have been better for everyone if they had side-stepped the issue entirely by offering backers "packages" that were not p2w in the extreme. I mean some mild form of p2w is to be expected, but this is on a completely different level to what we see in most mmos (xp pots, mounts, cosmetics, status symbols, and the like).
To cutoff the lame expected response you should just call it Pay for Advantage. Otherwise you trigger the silly defense of “Its an MMORPG you can’t win!”
OMG, you truly are prophetic. The last 2 pages have been filled with exactly that. Sad.
[mod edit]
Ah yes, I expect no less from the lovely CoE community.
I always miss out on the fun...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Evony as you describe from 9 years ago, sounds a lot like CoE today.
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Hmm, and as I recall this was your opinion then. Just an example of how wishy-washy opinions are in these forums.
Kyleran Said:
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
What was your point? I have a fairly high P2W threshold and like @Ungood I don't let it bother me.
Recall I've been advocating for the continuation of the PFA cash shop items post release, so I'd say I'm pretty consistent.
As for my most recent post it was mostly to point out you aren't very good at linking things which support your arguments, but rather the positions of the other side.
You just did it again BTW.
Support my argument? What was my argument? I did nothing but post a link as an indication that the p2w topic is well worn out. Being brought up over and over again in every single thread. I mean really can't folks find anything else to talk about.
In addition, just because there are a couple of posts in that thread that you happen to focus on, doesn't mean there is not a lot of opposing ideas put forth.
How many times do you guys need to beat a dead horse?
Probably better off to explain what point you are trying to make rather than dropping a related link with no comment.
Now that I understand your point, uh yeah, beating dead horses around here, it's just what we do, especially with a contentious, but well worn favorite of what is P2W?
That's why Slap tried to head it off with his comment about calling it pay for advantage, to avoid unnecessary debate, but as is often the case, no luck.
But you did a great job joining in the beatings by calling me out, that's the way its done for sure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Evony as you describe from 9 years ago, sounds a lot like CoE today.
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Unlike Evony.. as a peon with my tiny farm in someone else's kingdom, I am protected by the King that dumped a fuck-ton of money into their land, and all the Surrounding Dukes and Duchess that also dumped a shit-ton of money into the land .. so.. it's like they are paying for me to win..
Kind of a unique thing.
It only becomes a problem for the whiny freeloaders that want their own Kingdom but don't want to pay for it.. IMHO.. suck it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The King could simply decide he doesn’t like you. So could the Duke, or the Count. They could just make your life miserable. Maybe they hated what you wrote on a forum...
What protection do you the single farmer have if the King decides you are unwelcome?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Evony as you describe from 9 years ago, sounds a lot like CoE today.
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Unlike Evony.. as a peon with my tiny farm in someone else's kingdom, I am protected by the King that dumped a fuck-ton of money into their land, and all the Surrounding Dukes and Duchess that also dumped a shit-ton of money into the land .. so.. it's like they are paying for me to win..
Kind of a unique thing.
It only becomes a problem for the whiny freeloaders that want their own Kingdom but don't want to pay for it.. IMHO.. suck it.
Hey, I may be whiny, but I'm no freeloader. I just want to be able to buy my advantages post launch, not pre.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Evony as you describe from 9 years ago, sounds a lot like CoE today.
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Unlike Evony.. as a peon with my tiny farm in someone else's kingdom, I am protected by the King that dumped a fuck-ton of money into their land, and all the Surrounding Dukes and Duchess that also dumped a shit-ton of money into the land .. so.. it's like they are paying for me to win..
Kind of a unique thing.
It only becomes a problem for the whiny freeloaders that want their own Kingdom but don't want to pay for it.. IMHO.. suck it.
Hey, I may be whiny, but I'm no freeloader. I just want to be able to buy my advantages post launch, not pre.
sounds like you don't want to take a risk with your cash?
So if your not willing to take the risk why should you reap the same reward???
Nothing against you btw, counts to anyone who thinks they should be able to purchase what someone else did when they took all the risk and you sat back?
For me, P2W means the ability to convert $ into any in-game advantages.
Using a game from my history, EQ1, as an example, I would consider that a P2W game in it's current form. The ability to buy subscription time (krono), and sell it in-game to other players is 100% P2W in my book. Also, the exp bonus potions they sell.
Having said that, I didn't stop me from playing EQ1 when they released the new progression servers, knowing full well that those P2W items would be in place.
The gameplay out-weighed the negatives for me. However, I did not try to convince myself that it wasn't P2W.
That is not even coming close to P2W in my book.. I mean that is like that all the way on the other side of the scale in the "It's a cute way to charge a sub fee" kind thing. I can't even grasp how that is P2W being so far removed from what P2W is to me.
I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
I guess we just have different P2W books, and that's fine.
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
Lets start off.. No.
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
Evony as you describe from 9 years ago, sounds a lot like CoE today.
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Unlike Evony.. as a peon with my tiny farm in someone else's kingdom, I am protected by the King that dumped a fuck-ton of money into their land, and all the Surrounding Dukes and Duchess that also dumped a shit-ton of money into the land .. so.. it's like they are paying for me to win..
Kind of a unique thing.
It only becomes a problem for the whiny freeloaders that want their own Kingdom but don't want to pay for it.. IMHO.. suck it.
Hey, I may be whiny, but I'm no freeloader. I just want to be able to buy my advantages post launch, not pre.
sounds like you don't want to take a risk with your cash?
So if your not willing to take the risk why should you reap the same reward???
Nothing against you btw, counts to anyone who thinks they should be able to purchase what someone else did when they took all the risk and you sat back?
I generally save my risk vs reward choices for actual investments.
I make no apologies for not crowd funding games, "my momma didn't raise no dummies."
Besides don't you know all the pre launch people did so out of the kindness of their hearts, right?
Also, none of that stops me from advocating for a system that is more favorable for ME post launch, influencing is something I do best.
Some of you have so much to learn, and there's so little time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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I don't see the way someone "wins" in this case, I mean, player 1 spends money (Sub fee) and player two used their in-game gold to buy that sub-fee, sounds like a fair trade of goods and services IMHO, and allows some players to keep a sub going without needing to pay money, sounds like those people are the real winners in that situation.. I get to literally play the game on someone else's quarter.
EXP pots, are just a speeding up the process in my book, they don't allow anyone to beat me, unless we somehow agreed to race to some level, otherwise, LOL, not an issue for me, I don't play PvE games against other players, I play them for myself. I don't gauge my progress against others.
Even in MMO's that have PvP, as long as the system is balanced, 90% of the stuff people cry about being P2W is not even close to what we had to deal with in Evony and other games like that, there is no "Buying a Win", just some minor BS that can be either overcome with good game play, skill, or simply, time, as max level in MMO;'s kinda defeats the EXP pot issue.
Either investors don't believe the concepts will be appealing to gamers in the wild, or he isn't getting the interest he claims. End result is the same: investors are not interested in Caspian's game.
But hey, if they can keep the money rolling in from backers over the next few years there may be no need, or at least not any time soon.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle - regardless of whether it's true or not."
People are also free to read the 6 pages of round and round we went through the last time, which I think some would agree was won by @Kajidourden with his insightful retort,
"If you have to try this hard to explain how something isn't one thing, it probably is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran Said:
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/471595/pay-to-build-and-manage-vs-pay-to-win/p4#27SoQr7eU2qeyyCw.99
In my brief research of Evony's business model, I don't see how you consider that P2W and not EQ1's exp potions.
With my (extremely) limited understanding of Evony, there is nothing to stop the non-paying players for getting whatever the paying players have gotten. Speed is the only thing that is the advantage you can buy.
Which is exactly what you're getting from EQ1's cash shop -- a reduction of the time-sinks, i.e. in-game speed.
Sure, the two games have vastly different degrees of P2W, but whether you go over the speed limit by 1 mph or 100 mph, you're still speeding.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe Evony today is not as bad.. which I would believe, but 9 years ago when I played it.. oh the P2W was something amazing to witness, literally, defeating anyone was simply a matter of how much you were willing to spend.
Case in point, paid troops were unique to the cash shop and better then anything the free trash could get, not to mention you could buy additional troops to deploy which was not an option unless you paid into the game. IE: You were hard capped on how may troops you could send based on your city size, this gave an illusion of fairness, as a defender could always have more troops then an attacker,. but, you could pay cash for more troops to deploy and thus buy the ability to easily overwhelm even the strongest free defenders.
Not to mention you could also buy full recovery of your troops and even bring them back to life, if slain, which was not a free option at all. Couple that with instant deploy options, you could literally drop an Army twice the size any free player could make, having more powerful troop options then they could get their hands on, and even if they survived your attack, you could heal and restore all your troops and instantly deploy them again all within another few moments. Now, while that sounds like "Time" keep in mind, defeating someone took their resources, killed their troops, and destroyed their fortifications.
Yah.. hardly similar to something like an EXP pot in EQ1, unless that EXP pot directly stole your EXP and give it to the person that drank the pot.
.. if it did that.. you would have a great argument that it was P2W.
Gonna bet.. Not..
I find that statement really off and a bit disturbing.
If the "advantage" is a 10% exp boost for example, unless they play as much as you do, and grind as hard, it's not an advantage, as you can outstrip their progress.
The next question of course, is does the Advantage directly affect you. If someone can get a 10% exp boost, this does not directly hurt or hinder you. So the Advantage is not an Advantage over you, as it does not affect you.
Now, of course in purely PvE games, "Pay 4 Advantage" is totally irrelevant, as someone having better gear then you only contributes and enhances your game experience if you group with them. The same as joining any group with far more experienced players would help your game.
Only in a PvP game does this really matter at all.
No doubt that CoE is a PvP game. So it kinda matters. But again, buying a crown does not make a player personally more powerful then anyone else, buying land, buying a house, buying a horse, or chain mail bikini or whatever.. none of this confers a real "Advantage" as you can beat/kill them the same as you could anyone else.
I guess it comes down to what bothers you, some people get bent out of whack if someone so much as gets 1% faster exp then they do in a PvE game, and cries P2W,. I''m embarrassed to say.. I have heard more petty reasons.
For me.. it needs to directly affect me, it needs to give them a direct advantage over me that I have no way to overcome, and more so, their advantage can lead to my loss.
Using Evony, when someone defeated me, I lost troops, resources and fortifications, so taking a loss was a direct loss to my progress and could set me back days and weeks. The P2W in Evony made it so that I could buy back all those loses in a button click, and be as if I never lost. Equally so, I could buy better Resources, Fortifications, and Troops then I could earn in game.
But the real part was, I could spend money to just overpower any opponent, I could flatly buy more power then they had, and defeat them. I could also buy more defenses then they could overcome and be interminable to them. It was just a matter of how much I was willing to spend and I could defeat anyone.
That is why P2W was an issue, it is a pure as the name. Now.. "Advantages".. that's more a sliding scale.. it depends on the advantage, how it affects me, how it affects them.. etc etc.. there are factors involved.
Recall I've been advocating for the continuation of the PFA cash shop items post release, so I'd say I'm pretty consistent.
As for my most recent post it was mostly to point out you aren't very good at linking things which support your arguments, but rather the positions of the other side.
You just did it again BTW.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In addition, just because there are a couple of posts in that thread that you happen to focus on, doesn't mean there is not a lot of opposing ideas put forth.
How many times do you guys need to beat a dead horse?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Instantly become king with all the troops in your kingdom at your disposal. Instantly buy unlimited weapons and siege equipment through the exposition phase. By defeating someone you can take their resources, kill their npcs, and destroy their buildings.
A non-paying player who amassed enough in game resources to finally build themselves a tiny farm would stand no chance defending themselves against a baron, let alone a king.
Now that I understand your point, uh yeah, beating dead horses around here, it's just what we do, especially with a contentious, but well worn favorite of what is P2W?
That's why Slap tried to head it off with his comment about calling it pay for advantage, to avoid unnecessary debate, but as is often the case, no luck.
But you did a great job joining in the beatings by calling me out, that's the way its done for sure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kind of a unique thing.
It only becomes a problem for the whiny freeloaders that want their own Kingdom but don't want to pay for it.. IMHO.. suck it.
The King could simply decide he doesn’t like you. So could the Duke, or the Count. They could just make your life miserable. Maybe they hated what you wrote on a forum...
What protection do you the single farmer have if the King decides you are unwelcome?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So if your not willing to take the risk why should you reap the same reward???
Nothing against you btw, counts to anyone who thinks they should be able to purchase what someone else did when they took all the risk and you sat back?
I make no apologies for not crowd funding games, "my momma didn't raise no dummies."
Besides don't you know all the pre launch people did so out of the kindness of their hearts, right?
Also, none of that stops me from advocating for a system that is more favorable for ME post launch, influencing is something I do best.
Some of you have so much to learn, and there's so little time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon