No Content Info in Patch Notes Keeps Players More Fully Immersed - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com

SBFord · March 2018

No Content Info in Patch Notes Keeps Players More Fully Immersed - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com

Saga of Lucimia News - The Saga of Lucimia team has published the latest Mondays in MMORPGs titled "No Content Updates in the Patch Notes". By the title, it's apparent that players will not find nuggets of information about playable content, though the usual laundry list of bug fixes and back end improvements will be included. The goal is, according to the post, to keep players more immersed in the Saga of Lucimia game world.

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Wellspring · March 2018

I like the idea too.

However, if I'm accustomed to killing a quest mob at a certain location, and then one day he isn't there anymore --- is he on respawn? has he been moved by the devs secretly? or is there a bug (i.e. he spawned under the world or something)?

Do I wait for hours and hours hoping he spawns, search other locations, or report it as a bug?

Could be a frustrating system for the players, if there is no indication of what is going on.

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video yet, I just read the article, so I apologize in advance if this concern was already addressed.

berlight · March 2018

No maps!

Those people that loves to accept quest and follow waypoints without reading will love this game

<br />

Renfail · March 2018

Wellspring said:

I like the idea too.

However, if I'm accustomed to killing a quest mob at a certain location, and then one day he isn't there anymore --- is he on respawn? has he been moved by the devs secretly? or is there a bug (i.e. he spawned under the world or something)?

Do I wait for hours and hours hoping he spawns, search other locations, or report it as a bug?

Could be a frustrating system for the players, if there is no indication of what is going on.

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video yet, I just read the article, so I apologize in advance if this concern was already addressed.

As far as quest mobs go, almost none of them will be static/found in the same place every time. We're working on a dynamic spawn system that keeps players constantly moving around in dungeons and zones as opposed to "camping" a specific location.

P.S.> No one should ever be accustomed to ANYTHING in our game.

Renfail · March 2018

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

Renfail · March 2018

berlight said:

No maps! Those people that loves to accept quest and follow waypoints without reading will love this game

I know, right?

Xiaoki · March 2018

Renfail said:

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

I expect posts like "Immersion>all" from random posters but to see it from a developer raises giant red flags.

You can think that you are crafting immersive virtual worlds all you want but you arent, you're making a video game. And the most important aspect of any video game is GAMEPLAY.

Immersion is worthless if the controls are slow, unresponsive and clunky.

Not having full patch notes is worrying enough but this is an entirely different level of worrying.

Renfail · March 2018

Xiaoki said:

Renfail said:

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

I expect posts like "Immersion>all" from random posters but to see it from a developer raises giant red flags.

You can think that you are crafting immersive virtual worlds all you want but you arent, you're making a video game. And the most important aspect of any video game is GAMEPLAY.

Immersion is worthless if the controls are slow, unresponsive and clunky.

Not having full patch notes is worrying enough but this is an entirely different level of worrying.

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

We are building an extension of a tabletop experience, complete with tie-in novels, tabletop campaigns, and beyond. It is, regardless of your opinion, a virtual world.

We aren't building the latest action-based MMO with twitch-based gameplay. We are building a world that requires players to invest themselves into it, to immerse themselves into it, if they expect to get the most out of it.

Community, group-based gameplay, immersion...these are all far more important to us than merely controls.

Xiaoki · March 2018

Renfail said:

Xiaoki said:

Renfail said:

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

I expect posts like "Immersion>all" from random posters but to see it from a developer raises giant red flags.

You can think that you are crafting immersive virtual worlds all you want but you arent, you're making a video game. And the most important aspect of any video game is GAMEPLAY.

Immersion is worthless if the controls are slow, unresponsive and clunky.

Not having full patch notes is worrying enough but this is an entirely different level of worrying.

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

We are building an extension of a tabletop experience, complete with tie-in novels, tabletop campaigns, and beyond. It is, regardless of your opinion, a virtual world.

We aren't building the latest action-based MMO with twitch-based gameplay. We are building a world that requires players to invest themselves into it, to immerse themselves into it, if they expect to get the most out of it.

Community, group-based gameplay, immersion...these are all far more important to us than merely controls.

Sorry, but it doesnt matter how many tie-ins you have, table-top campaigns or novels or comic books or movies, you are making a video game. You can pretend that its some kind of virtual world but its still just a video game.
Also, trying to come out of the gate with a multi-media blitz with tabletop campaigns, novels and whatever else means that your focus is split between each very different medium and therefor each product in the line is diminished. This approach to launching a new video game as been tried many times before and most have failed.

Gameplay and controls matters just as much to a slow paced, turn-based MMO just as much to a twitch, action-based MMO. Gameplay and controls are the corner stones with how you interact with the game. If the way in which you interact with the game is frustrating or unresponsive then your experience will suffer greatly for it. You proclaim that "immersion>all" and yet you cant comprehend this? It speaks volumes as to your immaturity in video game development.

Your last sentence is definitely the most egregious of all. It's one of the worst things a video game developer can say about their own game.

Renfail · March 2018

Xiaoki said:

Your last sentence is definitely the most egregious of all. It's one of the worst things a video game developer can say about their own game.

In your opinion, of course.

Renfail · March 2018

Aori said:

If controls are required to participate in your virtual world, then they're just as important. To think of them as merely controls is a bit arrogant.

Roleplaying, community, immersion...all things that are more important to us than merely the controls that move you around within the world

bcbully · March 2018

Xiaoki said:

Renfail said:

Xiaoki said:

Renfail said:

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

I expect posts like "Immersion>all" from random posters but to see it from a developer raises giant red flags.

You can think that you are crafting immersive virtual worlds all you want but you arent, you're making a video game. And the most important aspect of any video game is GAMEPLAY.

Immersion is worthless if the controls are slow, unresponsive and clunky.

Not having full patch notes is worrying enough but this is an entirely different level of worrying.

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

We are building an extension of a tabletop experience, complete with tie-in novels, tabletop campaigns, and beyond. It is, regardless of your opinion, a virtual world.

We aren't building the latest action-based MMO with twitch-based gameplay. We are building a world that requires players to invest themselves into it, to immerse themselves into it, if they expect to get the most out of it.

Community, group-based gameplay, immersion...these are all far more important to us than merely controls.

Sorry, but it doesnt matter how many tie-ins you have, table-top campaigns or novels or comic books or movies, you are making a video game. You can pretend that its some kind of virtual world but its still just a video game.
Also, trying to come out of the gate with a multi-media blitz with tabletop campaigns, novels and whatever else means that your focus is split between each very different medium and therefor each product in the line is diminished. This approach to launching a new video game as been tried many times before and most have failed.

Gameplay and controls matters just as much to a slow paced, turn-based MMO just as much to a twitch, action-based MMO. Gameplay and controls are the corner stones with how you interact with the game. If the way in which you interact with the game is frustrating or unresponsive then your experience will suffer greatly for it. You proclaim that "immersion>all" and yet you cant comprehend this? It speaks volumes as to your immaturity in video game development.

Your last sentence is definitely the most egregious of all. It's one of the worst things a video game developer can say about their own game.

Savage

Renfail · March 2018

Aori said:

Renfail said:

Aori said:

If controls are required to participate in your virtual world, then they're just as important. To think of them as merely controls is a bit arrogant.

Roleplaying, community, immersion...all things that are more important to us than merely the controls that move you around within the world

You're going about community very wrong right now.

In your opinion

Lokero · March 2018

@Renfail - the article link actually dates it as Jun 25, fyi.

As far as the notes, sounds fine to me... so long as you give people some kinds of clue, so as to avoid what Wellspring mentioned above. You definitely don't want people standing around for hours waiting on an NPC and spamming you with bug reports because it left without a sign.
But, from what you said, it sounds like you plan to leave some type of sign/direction, anyway.

As for other games, I can't even count the amount of changes in games that simply don't get mentioned in patch notes. Even if they aren't proclaiming it in an article, every MMO leaves things out of the patch notes, deliberate or not.
Patch notes in games tend to be quite summarized and condensed, as a general rule.

Renfail · March 2018

Lokero said:

@Renfail - the article link actually dates it as Jun 25, fyi.

As far as the notes, sounds fine to me... so long as you give people some kinds of clue, so as to avoid what Wellspring mentioned above. You definitely don't want people standing around for hours waiting on an NPC and spamming you with bug reports because it left without a sign.
But, from what you said, it sounds like you plan to leave some type of sign/direction, anyway.

As for other games, I can't even count the amount of changes in games that simply don't get mentioned in patch notes. Even if they aren't proclaiming it in an article, every MMO leaves things out of the patch notes, deliberate or not.
Patch notes in games tend to be quite summarized and condensed, as a general rule.

It's an updated article from back in 2015; I apparently forgot to update the publication date to reflect

During the live stream tonight I covered World of Warcraft, using this patch note as an example of "over sharing". Not only do they tell players the name of the dungeon coming in, they also talk about the names of the boss mobs, lore snippets, and so much more. We also covered examples from LOTRO, Path of Exile, and other games where the developers share a whole slew of content updates in the patch notes to let players know exactly what new dungeons/zones/areas to go explore and etc.

As far as our MMORPG goes, we'll always have some sort of obvious "clue" that players will be able to refer to within the world. Maybe it's something that is related to common sense (hey, the zone entrance is caved in; maybe we should look around for another entrance), maybe it's related to the player character's perception to notice something like disturbed underbrush, maybe it's something that can be tracked, maybe it's as simple as a note left on a table. But the players will have to be on the lookout for things.

Vrika · March 2018

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

Kyleran · March 2018

Vrika said:

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

A virtual world may be a game, but a game isn't necessarily a virtual world.

How's that old saying go, "grant me the wisdom to know the difference."

Not all do.

Albatroes · March 2018

Eh, there's a way to have it both ways. Tuning should be mentioned and acknowledged to see how things are being adjusted. Last thing person wants to feel when being "immersed" is that a known issue isn't being acknowledged and the steps outlined publicly on how to fix them. Aside from that, you dont need much else imo. I mean back in the FFXI days, that's all they would comment about. They wouldn't talk about what new was added to the game which is okay.

ConstantineMerus · March 2018

Man I fucking love this team!

Vrika · March 2018

Kyleran said:

Vrika said:

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

A virtual world may be a game, but a game isn't necessarily a virtual world.

How's that old saying go, "grant me the wisdom to know the difference."

I agree with you on that.

But MMORPGs are video games. If the devs don't want to call it a video game, then they must not call it by the name of any video game subgenres either.

Kyleran · March 2018

Vrika said:

Kyleran said:

Vrika said:

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

A virtual world may be a game, but a game isn't necessarily a virtual world.

How's that old saying go, "grant me the wisdom to know the difference."

I agree with you on that.

But MMORPGs are video games. If the devs don't want to call it a video game, then they must not call it by the name of any video game subgenres either.

Considering what passes for a MMORPG these days I'm in agreement, but I'm not sure MMORPVW is going to catch on.

Think of it another way, "games" have more of an emphasis on "fun" while VWs, not always, or rather, they provide a different sort of satisfaction from activities many might not consider "fun."

Kyleran · March 2018

Xiaoki said:

Renfail said:

chambordin said:

i like it, immersion is not respected enough as a driving force of good gameplay experiences in rpgs, i'd love to see more companies run their mmorpgs like this, encouraging exploration

Immersion > all

At least in our world

I expect posts like "Immersion>all" from random posters but to see it from a developer raises giant red flags.

You can think that you are crafting immersive virtual worlds all you want but you arent, you're making a video game. And the most important aspect of any video game is GAMEPLAY.

Immersion is worthless if the controls are slow, unresponsive and clunky.

Not having full patch notes is worrying enough but this is an entirely different level of worrying.

There was a day when players were willing to adapt to the "controls" of any game, instead of expecting the game to adapt to the players.

Maybe in an action oriented twitch shooter quick, responsive controls are paramount, but in a game such as this I can understand why they might take more of a backseat to other considerations.

lahnmir · March 2018

I won't fall into the trap of good or bad and honestly don't think we can use these terms for this game yet. With that out of the way I find the approach and attitude of the developer refreshing, it isn't my cup of tea but it doesn't have to be. Lets see how it works out for them.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Vrika · March 2018

Kyleran said:

Vrika said:

Kyleran said:

Vrika said:

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

A virtual world may be a game, but a game isn't necessarily a virtual world.

How's that old saying go, "grant me the wisdom to know the difference."

I agree with you on that.

But MMORPGs are video games. If the devs don't want to call it a video game, then they must not call it by the name of any video game subgenres either.

Considering what passes for a MMORPG these days I'm in agreement, but I'm not sure MMORPVW is going to catch on.

Think of it another way, "games" have more of an emphasis on "fun" while VWs, not always, or rather, they provide a different sort of satisfaction from activities many might not consider "fun."

I think if they don't want to call it a game, then they could just call it virtual world, or online virtual world.

But after surfing their website a bit, I'm not sure if we've even understood Refail's message correctly. On their own website's FAQ section they're constantly talking about "the game". They've got total of 42 instances of word game.
https://sagaoflucimia.com/game/faq/

So maybe Renfail wasn't claiming that it's not a game, but rather that they're using some unique method that makes their game not a video game?

Renfail · March 2018

Kyleran said:

Vrika said:

Renfail said:

We aren't building a video game, which is something we've publicly stated more than once.

Perhaps you should stop calling it an MMORPG then.

Either it is a video game or it is not a video game, but calling it a video game and then saying it's not an video game is deceptive.

A virtual world may be a game, but a game isn't necessarily a virtual world.

How's that old saying go, "grant me the wisdom to know the difference."

Not all do.

This

Renfail · March 2018

t0nyd said:

The amount of hostility from random people never ceases to amaze me. This forum is constantly bitching about innovation but the moment you try to change something, nothing but bitching.

What do you mean mobs won't always spawn in the same spot. You mean that nomadic tribe of orcs moves around like, ummm, nomads. Now I have to explore, gasp. Id rather whine about it like a bitch until you put the tribes new location in the patch notes. Oh and play the game for me... And I don't want to read...

But but but don't you know? "The customer is always right?"

We've gotten used to such "feedback" from window shoppers over the years. We've also gotten extremely adept at ignoring any such feedback that doesn't fit into our vision for the world we are building.

Either folks love what we are building and want to come join in on the fun, or they don't. It's that simple!

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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No Content Info in Patch Notes Keeps Players More Fully Immersed - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com

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Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV