I don't think that it's a "trend," considering combat at the beginning of MMORPG gaming was quite simple compared even to EQ2/WoW. It hasn't gotten any worse than it was before - it's actually improved quite a bit. EQ and DAoC had simple combat with slow pacing, while EQ2/WoW has developed a faster pacing with more mobility, etc. (instant casts, ability queueing, etc.) despite being tab targeted games.
I just think that most tab target games haven't done much to change it or move it forwards. Also, there isn't a whole lot you can really do, anyways. Most things aren't open to infinite modifications/changes before they become something totally different. At that point, you have to worry about whether or not the players you expect to play your games will even feel comfortable playing it.
This can also be the result of "developer reuse" in the Western MMORPG space. A lot of the same developers developed a lot of different MMOs, which ended up with similar gameplay. They weren't really looking to be truly innovative - Pantheon comes to mine; it's goal is [intentionally] the complete opposite of innovative. They were looking to use the same formula on the back of a different lore package to sieve players from other popular MMORPGs of the day. On top of that, the most popular MMORPGs on the market aren't exactly "new," either. WoW is over a decade old, and FFXIV is 4+ years old at this point (older if you could 1.0).
We have seen genuine innovations in tab target combat (Age of Conan - predominantly for melee combat, Guild Wars 2, etc.), but nothing really groundbreaking; and certainly nothing that was successful on the scale of World of Warcraft (or even FFXIV) since this "generation" of tab target MMORPGs became prominent.
Reading more of this thread, it seems that "Tab Targeting" and "Action Combat" are kind of misused, in my opinion. The difference for me is not about how one acquires a target, but rather how the fight plays out.
Totally agree.
I think people are simply lumping all games that have an FPS-like retinal and don't allow you to lock targets with the mouse as "Action Combat.'
In reality, many of those game are nothing more than rudimentary MMO combat with "mouseover" targeting.
However...
Lots of tab target games I consider action combat, because I am constantly pressing keys/buttons, thus creating continuous action on my part.
Is just semantics.
The issue doesn't lean on the definition of "action (n.)" :-P
While you're technically correct, semantically, the details of the implementation is what matters.
Action Combat is more similar to a fighting game. If you were to make Tekken into an MMORPG. That's what Action-Combat MMOs feel like to me. The FPS-type reticle is simply there to provide a stable hit box for your actions. Otherwise, they feel like a fighting game, but in greater scale.
I have a hard time coming up with comparisons for Tab Targeting, because it's basically what MMORPGs were like since they went 3D on the PC platform decades ago.
tab targetting just means that when you hit the tab key you cycle through the enemies nearby, best examples, WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV:ARR, ESO, games that use 'action combat' don't have tab targetting because you do not lock onto a target but instead attacks hit enemies/mobs within the strike zone when the attack is carried out, for attacks that are not instantaneous it means that if the mob/enemy is able to move out of the strike zone the attack misses by default, or if the attack was badly aimed/timed in the first place.
Also, I don't think Action Combat "doesn't fit the bill." Personally, I think that all combat types should be tried and tested. I think there is room for more than one. It's the only way we will get innovation in the gameplay.
I do think the overall genre is so saturated that there are issues beyond "combat system" that is causing games to fail.
Personally, I don't care for it; however, I think people who like it should be able to play a game suitable for them.
tab targetting just means that when you hit the tab key you cycle through the enemies nearby, best examples, WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV:ARR, ESO, games that use 'action combat' don't have tab targetting because you do not lock onto a target but instead attacks hit enemies/mobs within the strike zone when the attack is carried out, for attacks that are not instantaneous it means that if the mob/enemy is able to move out of the strike zone the attack misses by default, or if the attack was badly aimed/timed in the first place.
Except ESO is not a Tab Target Combat game. I believe you are one of the very few that would ever classify ESO as a Tab Target Combat game. You can clearly initiate combat in ESO without tab targeting at all. As a matter of fact, even when you chose to tab to initiate combat, you can freely engage in manually targeting any other mob without tabbing. And while in combat, you can block, dodge, and move around freely, like any other action combat game. Action Combat is defined by the overall actions that a player makes while engaged in combat, not simply by where the attack is aimed or where its trajectory lands, after the skill has been initiated and/or launched.
Again, the fact that a player can merely tab a mob does not make it a tab target combat game. It may be classified as a hybrid, such as is the case with ESO, but even hybrids, for the most part, most accurately fall under the definition of being Action Combat oriented.
That said, I am just repeating myself in this thread. We've been going back and forth ad nauseam and it appears that no one is being swayed into changing their minds. And that's ok. Sometimes its simply ok to leave it as agreeing to disagree.
I'm not certain ESO is an action game in the same way as the Elder Scrolls single player games, Dark Souls, etc. I mentioned this before, but I feel that most action MMOs use a target based system. The target selection in based on where the person is looking at the time. Dodging/Blocking is based more on hitting a button at the right time instead of on whether contact is actually made or not.
I'm not certain ESO is an action game in the same way as the Elder Scrolls single player games, Dark Souls, etc. I mentioned this before, but I feel that most action MMOs use a target based system. The target selection in based on where the person is looking at the time. Dodging/Blocking is based more on hitting a button at the right time instead of on whether contact is actually made or not.
I also would say I am not certain Elder Scrolls single player games and Dark Souls is an action game in the same way as Mount & Blade Warband either.
I don't think that it's a "trend," considering combat at the beginning of MMORPG gaming was quite simple compared even to EQ2/WoW. It hasn't gotten any worse than it was before - it's actually improved quite a bit. EQ and DAoC had simple combat with slow pacing, while EQ2/WoW has developed a faster pacing with more mobility, etc. (instant casts, ability queueing, etc.) despite being tab targeted games.
I just think that most tab target games haven't done much to change it or move it forwards. Also, there isn't a whole lot you can really do, anyways. Most things aren't open to infinite modifications/changes before they become something totally different. At that point, you have to worry about whether or not the players you expect to play your games will even feel comfortable playing it.
This can also be the result of "developer reuse" in the Western MMORPG space. A lot of the same developers developed a lot of different MMOs, which ended up with similar gameplay. They weren't really looking to be truly innovative - Pantheon comes to mine; it's goal is [intentionally] the complete opposite of innovative. They were looking to use the same formula on the back of a different lore package to sieve players from other popular MMORPGs of the day. On top of that, the most popular MMORPGs on the market aren't exactly "new," either. WoW is over a decade old, and FFXIV is 4+ years old at this point (older if you could 1.0).
We have seen genuine innovations in tab target combat (Age of Conan - predominantly for melee combat, Guild Wars 2, etc.), but nothing really groundbreaking; and certainly nothing that was successful on the scale of World of Warcraft (or even FFXIV) since this "generation" of tab target MMORPGs became prominent.
In some ways EQs mechanics were far more advanced then Wows. EQs trinity combat had for more specific roles then Wows tank, DPS and healer but it is true that you used mobility far less there. You had more skills but often were those skills far too similar.
Still, the difference between combat in Meridian 59 (1996) and a modern tab targetted game is not that huge. It have evolved a bit but not nearly what it could in 22 years.
AoC and GW2 is more semi tab targetted games though, particularly AoC that uses collision detection in melee which actually is rather sweet. Too bad it's "shield" and arrow system is so terrible (or was when I played it). Melee fighters don't really target apponents in those games, you just use it for none AoE ranged attacks. Both are in between tab targetting and action combat.
In either case, both those systems works fine. The problem is group dynamics, that is what needs to evolve, instead it have gotten so simplified that you don't really need to co-ordinate your team as much as you should. Group tactics needs to become far more important.
Mount and Blade I've never played it and this thread has peaked my interest.
There are other possibilities, Vermintide would be more arcade, but the general consensus is anything other than what they are calling action combat now.
the thing i find most off putting of a game like BDO is not the action combat itself, but more the speed at which characters move and perform actions. it's like watching rats running from a fire. the constant sprint, dash, blink and teleport....its positively nausea inducing. i just don't understand how people can enjoy that type of strobe like experience. put a few dozens characters doing that in a pvp environment, and it's just complete seizure inducer.
i really liked Tera's action combat because it had the same aiming, positioning and tactical aspects but you could actually understand what was happening on the screen. too bad Tera had the Elin race....
with BDO its just complete chaos of flashes and blurs.
there is nothing wrong with action combat. it just needs to be done right.
I don't think that it's a "trend," considering combat at the beginning of MMORPG gaming was quite simple compared even to EQ2/WoW. It hasn't gotten any worse than it was before - it's actually improved quite a bit. EQ and DAoC had simple combat with slow pacing, while EQ2/WoW has developed a faster pacing with more mobility, etc. (instant casts, ability queueing, etc.) despite being tab targeted games.
I just think that most tab target games haven't done much to change it or move it forwards. Also, there isn't a whole lot you can really do, anyways. Most things aren't open to infinite modifications/changes before they become something totally different. At that point, you have to worry about whether or not the players you expect to play your games will even feel comfortable playing it.
This can also be the result of "developer reuse" in the Western MMORPG space. A lot of the same developers developed a lot of different MMOs, which ended up with similar gameplay. They weren't really looking to be truly innovative - Pantheon comes to mine; it's goal is [intentionally] the complete opposite of innovative. They were looking to use the same formula on the back of a different lore package to sieve players from other popular MMORPGs of the day. On top of that, the most popular MMORPGs on the market aren't exactly "new," either. WoW is over a decade old, and FFXIV is 4+ years old at this point (older if you could 1.0).
We have seen genuine innovations in tab target combat (Age of Conan - predominantly for melee combat, Guild Wars 2, etc.), but nothing really groundbreaking; and certainly nothing that was successful on the scale of World of Warcraft (or even FFXIV) since this "generation" of tab target MMORPGs became prominent.
In some ways EQs mechanics were far more advanced then Wows. EQs trinity combat had for more specific roles then Wows tank, DPS and healer but it is true that you used mobility far less there. You had more skills but often were those skills far too similar.
Still, the difference between combat in Meridian 59 (1996) and a modern tab targetted game is not that huge. It have evolved a bit but not nearly what it could in 22 years.
AoC and GW2 is more semi tab targetted games though, particularly AoC that uses collision detection in melee which actually is rather sweet. Too bad it's "shield" and arrow system is so terrible (or was when I played it). Melee fighters don't really target apponents in those games, you just use it for none AoE ranged attacks. Both are in between tab targetting and action combat.
In either case, both those systems works fine. The problem is group dynamics, that is what needs to evolve, instead it have gotten so simplified that you don't really need to co-ordinate your team as much as you should. Group tactics needs to become far more important.
Roles are interchangeable, the classes are just designed differently. WoW class design is more in line with EQ2 class design than EQ. Their gameplay changes (compared to EQ) largely mirrored each other.
Aside from that, most of this can be attributed to content design. Outside of Group Instances, Raids, and World Bosses... WoW is designed to be a convenient game with easily, soloable leveling content and classes that are more self-sufficient and less buff-dependent than in EQ. That is more in line with EQ2 and other similar games.
As far as the spells/skills go, EQ was no different than others. WoW had this issue, and this is why they did Skill Pruning. EQ2 also has this issue, and could probably use some skill pruning, Lol.
All these games had some spells that had very little utility and/or existed initially for RP or convenience reasons.
the thing i find most off putting of a game like BDO is not the action combat itself, but more the speed at which characters move and perform actions. it's like watching rats running from a fire. the constant sprint, dash, blink and teleport....its positively nausea inducing. i just don't understand how people can enjoy that type of strobe like experience. put a few dozens characters doing that in a pvp environment, and it's just complete seizure inducer.
i really liked Tera's action combat because it had the same aiming, positioning and tactical aspects but you could actually understand what was happening on the screen. too bad Tera had the Elin race....
with BDO its just complete chaos of flashes and blurs.
there is nothing wrong with action combat. it just needs to be done right.
Yea, something about BDO gameplay reminds me of the old Batman and Robin movies they used to play on TV.
tab targetting just means that when you hit the tab key you cycle through the enemies nearby, best examples, WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV:ARR, ESO, games that use 'action combat' don't have tab targetting because you do not lock onto a target but instead attacks hit enemies/mobs within the strike zone when the attack is carried out, for attacks that are not instantaneous it means that if the mob/enemy is able to move out of the strike zone the attack misses by default, or if the attack was badly aimed/timed in the first place.
Except ESO is not a Tab Target Combat game. I believe you are one of the very few that would ever classify ESO as a Tab Target Combat game. You can clearly initiate combat in ESO without tab targeting at all. As a matter of fact, even when you chose to tab to initiate combat, you can freely engage in manually targeting any other mob without tabbing. And while in combat, you can block, dodge, and move around freely, like any other action combat game. Action Combat is defined by the overall actions that a player makes while engaged in combat, not simply by where the attack is aimed or where its trajectory lands, after the skill has been initiated and/or launched.
Again, the fact that a player can merely tab a mob does not make it a tab target combat game. It may be classified as a hybrid, such as is the case with ESO, but even hybrids, for the most part, most accurately fall under the definition of being Action Combat oriented.
That said, I am just repeating myself in this thread. We've been going back and forth ad nauseam and it appears that no one is being swayed into changing their minds. And that's ok. Sometimes its simply ok to leave it as agreeing to disagree.
Just wanna clarify this is not entirely true. You can see how arrows "bend" in their flight path towards a target when it moves alot as being a point of example on this. ESO fundamentally uses a tab-target system that they revised into a soft-lock mechanic after getting severe backlash. This is also why the mechanics for tabbing to a target still exists in ESO and you can use that feature freely in lieu of trying to maintain soft locks.
The dodge and block skills work as interrupts that respond to a time window on an action (unlike a real-time or physics system where it'd be tracking the attack for a point of collision and whether that collision was with a soft or hard target).
What ESO did is mask their tab-target system with a workaround to provide action-styled gameplay. It can be noted that Tabula Rasa did this as well, though they did not have as refined of a system that left people feeling like it was too "loose" in how it would target enemies, making combat very much a case of just hitting whatever was the closest thing within your character's facing.
The original Mass Effect can also be noted for having used these mechanics. They used a really tight scope for their soft locking though.
It can be said that ESO does represent a hybrid since they use the soft locking mechanics as their primary method of play, but they are fundamentally using an adaptation of their original tab-target system they built into the engine and you can still technically play the game using tab targeting.
tab targetting just means that when you hit the tab key you cycle through the enemies nearby, best examples, WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV:ARR, ESO, games that use 'action combat' don't have tab targetting because you do not lock onto a target but instead attacks hit enemies/mobs within the strike zone when the attack is carried out, for attacks that are not instantaneous it means that if the mob/enemy is able to move out of the strike zone the attack misses by default, or if the attack was badly aimed/timed in the first place.
Except ESO is not a Tab Target Combat game. I believe you are one of the very few that would ever classify ESO as a Tab Target Combat game. You can clearly initiate combat in ESO without tab targeting at all. As a matter of fact, even when you chose to tab to initiate combat, you can freely engage in manually targeting any other mob without tabbing. And while in combat, you can block, dodge, and move around freely, like any other action combat game. Action Combat is defined by the overall actions that a player makes while engaged in combat, not simply by where the attack is aimed or where its trajectory lands, after the skill has been initiated and/or launched.
Again, the fact that a player can merely tab a mob does not make it a tab target combat game. It may be classified as a hybrid, such as is the case with ESO, but even hybrids, for the most part, most accurately fall under the definition of being Action Combat oriented.
That said, I am just repeating myself in this thread. We've been going back and forth ad nauseam and it appears that no one is being swayed into changing their minds. And that's ok. Sometimes its simply ok to leave it as agreeing to disagree.
Just wanna clarify this is not entirely true. You can see how arrows "bend" in their flight path towards a target when it moves alot as being a point of example on this. ESO fundamentally uses a tab-target system that they revised into a soft-lock mechanic after getting severe backlash. This is also why the mechanics for tabbing to a target still exists in ESO and you can use that feature freely in lieu of trying to maintain soft locks.
The dodge and block skills work as interrupts that respond to a time window on an action (unlike a real-time or physics system where it'd be tracking the attack for a point of collision and whether that collision was with a soft or hard target).
What ESO did is mask their tab-target system with a workaround to provide action-styled gameplay. It can be noted that Tabula Rasa did this as well, though they did not have as refined of a system that left people feeling like it was too "loose" in how it would target enemies, making combat very much a case of just hitting whatever was the closest thing within your character's facing.
The original Mass Effect can also be noted for having used these mechanics. They used a really tight scope for their soft locking though.
It can be said that ESO does represent a hybrid since they use the soft locking mechanics as their primary method of play, but they are fundamentally using an adaptation of their original tab-target system they built into the engine and you can still technically play the game using tab targeting.
When I say that ESO is not a Tab Target game, I mean it isn't exclusively a Tab Target Combat game in the classical sense, as some in this thread have claimed. Even when you utilize Tab Target mode, which isn't necessary, there is still an overriding element of Action Combat involved. (Ie., ESO does represent a hybrid since they use the soft locking mechanics as their primary method of play ... ) The keywords in that (your) sentence = ESO does represent a Hybrid.
So what about your post renders anything in my post not entirely true? You basically just regurgitated everything I said. You simply delivered in a different manner. One can twist words around until hell freezes over but the end result will always be the same ...
If you want to frame it that way, you do you. Your statement seemed to ignore that the core system in place for ESO was not the same mechanics as traditionally found in action games though, to the point of even their raycasting mechanic being rather loose since the raycast is only looking for a target within a given range from the center reticule/screen.
It to me was worth noting this distinction because it does have secondary effects that would go ignored otherwise. Such as the commentary made regarding the dodge/block mechanics as well as how any ranged (non ground-targeting) effects work. It's sense of action and reactionary elements are more so scripted instead of physics or sim driven in some other manner. In that regard the action elements can also be "fibbed" with things like range on attacks being more nebulous for PvP. Not great when you think you can outpace a melee character only to find their still stabbing you over and over because the player has you target locked.
So yeah, I am in agreement that is a hybrid action game. I am saying that with caveat to it's functionality though and the manner in which the features were implemented over a system and game engine that was fundamentally intended to be a tab-target system originally and got re-purposed. It's educational in that regard to it's success at refining the concept, as well as informative of the flaws of trying to retool one system into something else.
Guess it's also worth noting I took a bit of umbrage with some of the semantics of the argument. Like, no you are not expressly hitting the tab key to target somebody, but that's because they put a soft-lock feature over the tab mechanics so that your reticule will, within a certain range, automatically tab you to the nearest target to said reticule. This has a key point of difference to be said because it affects how the game will detect which target to track any ability to attack you trigger, and it will not always be in direct relation to the logic a hit-detection style of system would result in.
Being able to use the soft lock to basically tab to an enemy standing behind another to use a dazing strike on for example. A system that was built fundamentally as an action-derived system using hit detection mechanics would require you to find a way to physically strike through the front most target, but a tab-target system being the basis of ESO's gameplay makes it so you can ignore the physics of that kind of scenario.
The mobs highlight this factor too. They don't have environmental responses because they don't have anything other than line of sight and proximity to target to worry about when triggering an attack. It's rather a hallmark difference and notable to a big difference between a fundamentally tab target system versus something that is/was using more classical action mechanics. The dodge and block for example only work preemptively to the initiation of a skill. You can't issue a block mid-attack swing to parry, that's why the notion of windup animations was implemented. Because the "hit" was already registered otherwise.
So while I do agree with you that it is a hybrid title, it is with a lot of caveats to the defining traits of the system and I do personally still identify it as being still a fundamentally tab-target system as it has a clear influence in the breadth of it's gameplay.
I noticed mention of "tab is less skillful than mechanical skill".Well that alone does not tel the whole story nor does that mean it is better in every scenario,example rpg versus a fps shooter.
What i am saying si that trying to dumb it down into a simple statement is not doing gaming or players any favors.It is exactly like saying a Motocross expert has way more skill than a Badminton player.it is a VAGUE statement,what matters is THAT specific scenario and even then can be divided down to how many skills are usable,how many players involved,PVE or PVP .there is no SIMPLE statement like action takes more skill.
Then i will add even one more layer,are players using add-ons to eliminate part of the actual skill and thinking?Does the manual aspect of the combat create a more cumbersome style and therefor has to eliminate a better combat design to avoid even further cumbersome.So then combat would come down to who can handle the cumbersome system better than the other guy.
A perfect example is seeing 4/5/6 hotbars,NOBODY is handling that many icons with any proficiency.
So to be able to make the game as interactive and with as much depth as possible,it is ALWAYS easier to utilize tab targeting,trying to add in MANY manual key presses is cumbersome and NOT better.However,you can add in many more choices of button presses if not needing to 100% aim and focus.
Is one less realistic than the other,most certainly no argument here but if you want the BEST that PVE can offer,TAB targeting is it and by a long shot.
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So while I do agree with you that it is a hybrid title ...
You could have simply left it at the above bolded and been done with it. These "caveats" you speak of ... they ARE, in fact, what define ESOs hybrid Action Combat system. No amount of mountains worth of muddying, or word salad tossing, is going to change the fact.
I agree with some of you who are pointing out that the tab key has very little to do with it. I think we just use "tab targeting" as meaning a slower more thoughtful pace.
I do know that I now find it hard to play older MMOs that don't use active player movement dodging and blocking as part of the combat basics. I just feel more engaged when I have to actively manage and time some of my defense.
But then I'm also not a fan of action overdone where you have to manage complex sequential moves to activate combos. That's just too much work for my taste.
Both GW2 and ESO are in my own personal action combat sweet spots with respect to how much I have to do. BDO on the other hand, despite having liked fighting with some of the classes, was just a bit too much action and sequence choreography for me... /shrug.
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My biggest problem with a lot of these "Action Combat Systems", besides my general lack of twitch skill, is that they seem spammy. Blade and Soul was pretty fun to play until I found myself having to repeat those three-to-five-move combos multiple times to take down one trash mob. I've watched several videos of the same kind of play in Black Desert. Guild Wars 2 and Arch Age started to feel the same way as well. Cool, complex combos that seem to have little effect on the outcome of the fight. I fondly remember Age of Conan's combo system that could crit and reward a graphic kill. There's a fine, subjective line between trivial and challenging.
Real combat is kind of boring to watch. It's certainly not a real display of skill. And I have some issue with the term: "Realistic, Entertaining Combat." Though I am looking for a game that does that.
So while I do agree with you that it is a hybrid title ...
You could have simply left it at the above bolded and been done with it. These "caveats" you speak of ... they ARE, in fact, what define ESOs hybrid Action Combat system. No amount of mountains worth of muddying, or word salad tossing, is going to change the fact.
Does ESO feature a hybrid Action Combat mechanic?
Yes!
Period.
Full stop.
If you wanna define and talk about it in such a vague and weak way fine. That doesn't exactly help parse what aspects of any given system might be more or less valuable in creating or enhancing it though.
Comments
I just think that most tab target games haven't done much to change it or move it forwards. Also, there isn't a whole lot you can really do, anyways. Most things aren't open to infinite modifications/changes before they become something totally different. At that point, you have to worry about whether or not the players you expect to play your games will even feel comfortable playing it.
This can also be the result of "developer reuse" in the Western MMORPG space. A lot of the same developers developed a lot of different MMOs, which ended up with similar gameplay. They weren't really looking to be truly innovative - Pantheon comes to mine; it's goal is [intentionally] the complete opposite of innovative. They were looking to use the same formula on the back of a different lore package to sieve players from other popular MMORPGs of the day. On top of that, the most popular MMORPGs on the market aren't exactly "new," either. WoW is over a decade old, and FFXIV is 4+ years old at this point (older if you could 1.0).
We have seen genuine innovations in tab target combat (Age of Conan - predominantly for melee combat, Guild Wars 2, etc.), but nothing really groundbreaking; and certainly nothing that was successful on the scale of World of Warcraft (or even FFXIV) since this "generation" of tab target MMORPGs became prominent.
Totally agree.
I think people are simply lumping all games that have an FPS-like retinal and don't allow you to lock targets with the mouse as "Action Combat.'
In reality, many of those game are nothing more than rudimentary MMO combat with "mouseover" targeting.
However...
Is just semantics.
The issue doesn't lean on the definition of "action (n.)" :-P
While you're technically correct, semantically, the details of the implementation is what matters.
Action Combat is more similar to a fighting game. If you were to make Tekken into an MMORPG. That's what Action-Combat MMOs feel like to me. The FPS-type reticle is simply there to provide a stable hit box for your actions. Otherwise, they feel like a fighting game, but in greater scale.
I have a hard time coming up with comparisons for Tab Targeting, because it's basically what MMORPGs were like since they went 3D on the PC platform decades ago.
I do think the overall genre is so saturated that there are issues beyond "combat system" that is causing games to fail.
Personally, I don't care for it; however, I think people who like it should be able to play a game suitable for them.
Except ESO is not a Tab Target Combat game. I believe you are one of the very few that would ever classify ESO as a Tab Target Combat game. You can clearly initiate combat in ESO without tab targeting at all. As a matter of fact, even when you chose to tab to initiate combat, you can freely engage in manually targeting any other mob without tabbing. And while in combat, you can block, dodge, and move around freely, like any other action combat game. Action Combat is defined by the overall actions that a player makes while engaged in combat, not simply by where the attack is aimed or where its trajectory lands, after the skill has been initiated and/or launched.
Again, the fact that a player can merely tab a mob does not make it a tab target combat game. It may be classified as a hybrid, such as is the case with ESO, but even hybrids, for the most part, most accurately fall under the definition of being Action Combat oriented.
That said, I am just repeating myself in this thread. We've been going back and forth ad nauseam and it appears that no one is being swayed into changing their minds. And that's ok. Sometimes its simply ok to leave it as agreeing to disagree.
Still, the difference between combat in Meridian 59 (1996) and a modern tab targetted game is not that huge. It have evolved a bit but not nearly what it could in 22 years.
AoC and GW2 is more semi tab targetted games though, particularly AoC that uses collision detection in melee which actually is rather sweet. Too bad it's "shield" and arrow system is so terrible (or was when I played it). Melee fighters don't really target apponents in those games, you just use it for none AoE ranged attacks. Both are in between tab targetting and action combat.
In either case, both those systems works fine. The problem is group dynamics, that is what needs to evolve, instead it have gotten so simplified that you don't really need to co-ordinate your team as much as you should. Group tactics needs to become far more important.
There are other possibilities, Vermintide would be more arcade, but the general consensus is anything other than what they are calling action combat now.
i really liked Tera's action combat because it had the same aiming, positioning and tactical aspects but you could actually understand what was happening on the screen. too bad Tera had the Elin race....
with BDO its just complete chaos of flashes and blurs.
there is nothing wrong with action combat. it just needs to be done right.
Roles are interchangeable, the classes are just designed differently. WoW class design is more in line with EQ2 class design than EQ. Their gameplay changes (compared to EQ) largely mirrored each other.
Aside from that, most of this can be attributed to content design. Outside of Group Instances, Raids, and World Bosses... WoW is designed to be a convenient game with easily, soloable leveling content and classes that are more self-sufficient and less buff-dependent than in EQ. That is more in line with EQ2 and other similar games.
As far as the spells/skills go, EQ was no different than others. WoW had this issue, and this is why they did Skill Pruning. EQ2 also has this issue, and could probably use some skill pruning, Lol.
All these games had some spells that had very little utility and/or existed initially for RP or convenience reasons.
Yea, something about BDO gameplay reminds me of the old Batman and Robin movies they used to play on TV.
WHAM! BAM! ZOOM! POP! WHOOSH!
I cannot...
The dodge and block skills work as interrupts that respond to a time window on an action (unlike a real-time or physics system where it'd be tracking the attack for a point of collision and whether that collision was with a soft or hard target).
What ESO did is mask their tab-target system with a workaround to provide action-styled gameplay. It can be noted that Tabula Rasa did this as well, though they did not have as refined of a system that left people feeling like it was too "loose" in how it would target enemies, making combat very much a case of just hitting whatever was the closest thing within your character's facing.
The original Mass Effect can also be noted for having used these mechanics. They used a really tight scope for their soft locking though.
It can be said that ESO does represent a hybrid since they use the soft locking mechanics as their primary method of play, but they are fundamentally using an adaptation of their original tab-target system they built into the engine and you can still technically play the game using tab targeting.
When I say that ESO is not a Tab Target game, I mean it isn't exclusively a Tab Target Combat game in the classical sense, as some in this thread have claimed. Even when you utilize Tab Target mode, which isn't necessary, there is still an overriding element of Action Combat involved. (Ie., ESO does represent a hybrid since they use the soft locking mechanics as their primary method of play ... ) The keywords in that (your) sentence = ESO does represent a Hybrid.
So what about your post renders anything in my post not entirely true? You basically just regurgitated everything I said. You simply delivered in a different manner. One can twist words around until hell freezes over but the end result will always be the same ...
ESO features a hybrid Action Combat mechanic.
It to me was worth noting this distinction because it does have secondary effects that would go ignored otherwise. Such as the commentary made regarding the dodge/block mechanics as well as how any ranged (non ground-targeting) effects work. It's sense of action and reactionary elements are more so scripted instead of physics or sim driven in some other manner. In that regard the action elements can also be "fibbed" with things like range on attacks being more nebulous for PvP. Not great when you think you can outpace a melee character only to find their still stabbing you over and over because the player has you target locked.
So yeah, I am in agreement that is a hybrid action game. I am saying that with caveat to it's functionality though and the manner in which the features were implemented over a system and game engine that was fundamentally intended to be a tab-target system originally and got re-purposed. It's educational in that regard to it's success at refining the concept, as well as informative of the flaws of trying to retool one system into something else.
Guess it's also worth noting I took a bit of umbrage with some of the semantics of the argument. Like, no you are not expressly hitting the tab key to target somebody, but that's because they put a soft-lock feature over the tab mechanics so that your reticule will, within a certain range, automatically tab you to the nearest target to said reticule. This has a key point of difference to be said because it affects how the game will detect which target to track any ability to attack you trigger, and it will not always be in direct relation to the logic a hit-detection style of system would result in.
Being able to use the soft lock to basically tab to an enemy standing behind another to use a dazing strike on for example. A system that was built fundamentally as an action-derived system using hit detection mechanics would require you to find a way to physically strike through the front most target, but a tab-target system being the basis of ESO's gameplay makes it so you can ignore the physics of that kind of scenario.
The mobs highlight this factor too. They don't have environmental responses because they don't have anything other than line of sight and proximity to target to worry about when triggering an attack. It's rather a hallmark difference and notable to a big difference between a fundamentally tab target system versus something that is/was using more classical action mechanics. The dodge and block for example only work preemptively to the initiation of a skill. You can't issue a block mid-attack swing to parry, that's why the notion of windup animations was implemented. Because the "hit" was already registered otherwise.
So while I do agree with you that it is a hybrid title, it is with a lot of caveats to the defining traits of the system and I do personally still identify it as being still a fundamentally tab-target system as it has a clear influence in the breadth of it's gameplay.
What i am saying si that trying to dumb it down into a simple statement is not doing gaming or players any favors.It is exactly like saying a Motocross expert has way more skill than a Badminton player.it is a VAGUE statement,what matters is THAT specific scenario and even then can be divided down to how many skills are usable,how many players involved,PVE or PVP .there is no SIMPLE statement like action takes more skill.
Then i will add even one more layer,are players using add-ons to eliminate part of the actual skill and thinking?Does the manual aspect of the combat create a more cumbersome style and therefor has to eliminate a better combat design to avoid even further cumbersome.So then combat would come down to who can handle the cumbersome system better than the other guy.
A perfect example is seeing 4/5/6 hotbars,NOBODY is handling that many icons with any proficiency.
So to be able to make the game as interactive and with as much depth as possible,it is ALWAYS easier to utilize tab targeting,trying to add in MANY manual key presses is cumbersome and NOT better.However,you can add in many more choices of button presses if not needing to 100% aim and focus.
Is one less realistic than the other,most certainly no argument here but if you want the BEST that PVE can offer,TAB targeting is it and by a long shot.
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You could have simply left it at the above bolded and been done with it.
These "caveats" you speak of ... they ARE, in fact, what define ESOs hybrid Action Combat system. No amount of mountains worth of muddying, or word salad tossing, is going to change the fact.
Does ESO feature a hybrid Action Combat mechanic?
Yes!
Period.
Full stop.
I do know that I now find it hard to play older MMOs that don't use active player movement dodging and blocking as part of the combat basics. I just feel more engaged when I have to actively manage and time some of my defense.
But then I'm also not a fan of action overdone where you have to manage complex sequential moves to activate combos. That's just too much work for my taste.
Both GW2 and ESO are in my own personal action combat sweet spots with respect to how much I have to do. BDO on the other hand, despite having liked fighting with some of the classes, was just a bit too much action and sequence choreography for me... /shrug.
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Real combat is kind of boring to watch. It's certainly not a real display of skill. And I have some issue with the term: "Realistic, Entertaining Combat." Though I am looking for a game that does that.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,