the point you argued with me was ... ""Also,Tab -Targeting is still used more in MMORPGs by a very large margin .. Its not even close ""
I still stand by that and have proven that point ...
I shudder to stick my nose in here, but 52 MMOs out of 600+ is still less than the 10% already mentioned and forgotten.
As for "going back to tab targeting", how many of your list are less than 3 years old? Where is this "retro tab targeting trend" you spoke of?
Now, there is also a mention of "MMORPGs", which could muck up the whole thing, depending on one's definition of "MMORPG." Tab targeting does play into the "RPG" portion, in my opinion, but that's definitely not a given to any other player's opinion.
Well said.
I realize that there is a lot of confusion among many regarding this subject which is why I was really trying to be patient and understanding while discussing the subject in this thread. I believe that many are under the misguided opinion that simply because one is able to tab target a mob, that this automatically makes the game tab target combat. Defining the difference between Action Combat and Tab Target Combat is a lot more complicated than ascribing a game as Tab Target Combat simply because one is able to tab from one mob to another and after pressing a key watching the trajectory of the attack strike the target. There a distinct difference between the two combat styles. Sometimes they may bleed into each other subtly, yet the difference remains if one has a true understanding of the foundational mechanics that drive each combat style.
In a nutshell though, without going into deep detail and specifics, the difference lies in that in one style (Action Combat) the player is actively mobile and manually engaged in blocking, dodging, free lance targeting while attacking and in combat. In other words, the player is mobile and active while in combat, hence the term "Action Combat."
In the other combat style (Tab Targeting), the player stands stationary after tabbing a mob and proceeds to attack by pressing offensive assault skills. Generally speaking, with this style, the game can either reward you with points that you can assign to the various categories such as block, dodge, parry, agility, etc. These categories can also be found in gear, and when each is combined, allow the game to arbitrarily (RNG based) determine whether you are executing these actions (blocking, dodging, parrying, etc.), and how well you are able to perform and/or executive these abilities.
There are other combat dynamics that are integral to each, and that factor into the differences of each stated mechanic, but for the sake of brevity that is the basic difference, and the one that can be most easily recognized distinguishing one combat style from the other.
Its not well said its completley off base and incorrect as i showed in the above post ,
As for you , again you are wrong and moving goal posts..
First of all your in your first paragraph , no one said the Range combat and trajectory of arrows in ESO makes it a Tab Target game .. Again show where that was said and again you cant ,.. What was said is that it gives it a tab target feel(to me) , But that the game itself has overall Action feel to it .. This Very different than what you are trying to put out there
You have a way of cherry picking , twisting and leaving things out to make a point ( im sure it is becoming painfully obvious to this community)
The rest of your post is just a lack of experience and knowledge of the sytems being discussed ..
As in no way does a Tab Target game indicate a stationary player , evidence of this go as far back as UO , a Tab Target game .. but you will be moving ..
as in SWTOR as you are activley moving
as in DAOC with its multitude of facings and flanking attacks and blocks
As in FF14 which you are consatnlty on the move
all Tab TArget games , but you are not stationary in any way in any of them , there are many examples of this ..
But your ignorance and lack of basic knowledge of these systems is an indicator of who actually is not really understanding these systems ...
i know , next you will tell us that those are Action Combat games , which we will all have a good chuckle at
the point you argued with me was ... ""Also,Tab -Targeting is still used more in MMORPGs by a very large margin .. Its not even close ""
I still stand by that and have proven that point ...
I shudder to stick my nose in here, but 52 MMOs out of 600+ is still less than the 10% already mentioned and forgotten.
As for "going back to tab targeting", how many of your list are less than 3 years old? Where is this "retro tab targeting trend" you spoke of?
Now, there is also a mention of "MMORPGs", which could muck up the whole thing, depending on one's definition of "MMORPG." Tab targeting does play into the "RPG" portion, in my opinion, but that's definitely not a given to any other player's opinion.
Well said.
I realize that there is a lot of confusion among many regarding this subject which is why I was really trying to be patient and understanding while discussing the subject in this thread. I believe that many are under the misguided opinion that simply because one is able to tab target a mob, that this automatically makes the game tab target combat. Defining the difference between Action Combat and Tab Target Combat is a lot more complicated than ascribing a game as Tab Target Combat simply because one is able to tab from one mob to another and after pressing a key watching the trajectory of the attack strike the target. There a distinct difference between the two combat styles. Sometimes they may bleed into each other subtly, yet the difference remains if one has a true understanding of the foundational mechanics that drive each combat style.
In a nutshell though, without going into deep detail and specifics, the difference lies in that in one style (Action Combat) the player is actively mobile and manually engaged in blocking, dodging, free lance targeting while attacking and in combat. In other words, the player is mobile and active while in combat, hence the term "Action Combat."
In the other combat style (Tab Targeting), the player stands stationary after tabbing a mob and proceeds to attack by pressing offensive assault skills. Generally speaking, with this style, the game can either reward you with points that you can assign to the various categories such as block, dodge, parry, agility, etc. These categories can also be found in gear, and when each is combined, allow the game to arbitrarily (RNG based) determine whether you are executing these actions (blocking, dodging, parrying, etc.), and how well you are able to perform and/or executive these abilities.
There are other combat dynamics that are integral to each, and that factor into the differences of each stated mechanic, but for the sake of brevity that is the basic difference, and the one that can be most easily recognized distinguishing one combat style from the other.
Its not well said its completley off base and incorrect as i showed in the above post ,
As for you , again you are wrong and moving goal posts..
First of all your in your first paragraph , no one said the Range combat and trajectory of arrows in ESO makes it a Tab Target game .. Again show where that was said and again you cant ,.. What was said is that it gives it a tab target feel(to me) , But that the game itself has overall Action feel to it .. This Very different than what you are trying to put out there
You have a way of cherry picking , twisting and leaving things out to make a point ( im sure it is becoming painfully obvious to this community)
The rest of your post is just a lack of experience and knowledge of the sytems being discussed ..
As in no way does a Tab Target game indicate a stationary player , evidence of this go as far back as UO , a Tab Target game .. but you will be moving ..
as in SWTOR as you are activley moving
as in DAOC with its multitude of facings and flanking attacks and blocks
As in FF14 which you are consatnlty on the move
all Tab TArget games , but you are not stationary in any way in any of them , there are many examples of this ..
But your ignorance and lack of basic knowledge of these systems is an indicator of who actually is not really understanding these systems ...
i know , next you will tell us that those are Action Combat games , which we will all have a good chuckle at
Again, and very simply put, if one is actively mobile while in combat, and able to dodge, block, parry, target, or otherwise free lance target and attack while moving, it is ACTION COMBAT. These two words describe the combat style in its most simplest form. One can decide for themselves whether they are engaged in Action Combat, or not, if they are able to do the above while playing the game. Like I said in my post, there are different subtleties that can bleed into each combat style. But the underlying difference that differentiate both combat styles are foundational and distinct. No amount of denying, whining, complaining, word play, semantics, nit/cherry picking, or otherwise muddying of the issue, can change the fact. Its really not that hard to grasp unless one is being intentionally obtuse.
the point you argued with me was ... ""Also,Tab -Targeting is still used more in MMORPGs by a very large margin .. Its not even close ""
I still stand by that and have proven that point ...
I shudder to stick my nose in here, but 52 MMOs out of 600+ is still less than the 10% already mentioned and forgotten.
As for "going back to tab targeting", how many of your list are less than 3 years old? Where is this "retro tab targeting trend" you spoke of?
Now, there is also a mention of "MMORPGs", which could muck up the whole thing, depending on one's definition of "MMORPG." Tab targeting does play into the "RPG" portion, in my opinion, but that's definitely not a given to any other player's opinion.
Well said.
I realize that there is a lot of confusion among many regarding this subject which is why I was really trying to be patient and understanding while discussing the subject in this thread. I believe that many are under the misguided opinion that simply because one is able to tab target a mob, that this automatically makes the game tab target combat. Defining the difference between Action Combat and Tab Target Combat is a lot more complicated than ascribing a game as Tab Target Combat simply because one is able to tab from one mob to another and after pressing a key watching the trajectory of the attack strike the target. There a distinct difference between the two combat styles. Sometimes they may bleed into each other subtly, yet the difference remains if one has a true understanding of the foundational mechanics that drive each combat style.
In a nutshell though, without going into deep detail and specifics, the difference lies in that in one style (Action Combat) the player is actively mobile and manually engaged in blocking, dodging, free lance targeting while attacking and in combat. In other words, the player is mobile and active while in combat, hence the term "Action Combat."
In the other combat style (Tab Targeting), the player stands stationary after tabbing a mob and proceeds to attack by pressing offensive assault skills. Generally speaking, with this style, the game can either reward you with points that you can assign to the various categories such as block, dodge, parry, agility, etc. These categories can also be found in gear, and when each is combined, allow the game to arbitrarily (RNG based) determine whether you are executing these actions (blocking, dodging, parrying, etc.), and how well you are able to perform and/or executive these abilities.
There are other combat dynamics that are integral to each, and that factor into the differences of each stated mechanic, but for the sake of brevity that is the basic difference, and the one that can be most easily recognized distinguishing one combat style from the other.
Its not well said its completley off base and incorrect as i showed in the above post ,
As for you , again you are wrong and moving goal posts..
First of all your in your first paragraph , no one said the Range combat and trajectory of arrows in ESO makes it a Tab Target game .. Again show where that was said and again you cant ,.. What was said is that it gives it a tab target feel(to me) , But that the game itself has overall Action feel to it .. This Very different than what you are trying to put out there
You have a way of cherry picking , twisting and leaving things out to make a point ( im sure it is becoming painfully obvious to this community)
The rest of your post is just a lack of experience and knowledge of the sytems being discussed ..
As in no way does a Tab Target game indicate a stationary player , evidence of this go as far back as UO , a Tab Target game .. but you will be moving ..
as in SWTOR as you are activley moving
as in DAOC with its multitude of facings and flanking attacks and blocks
As in FF14 which you are consatnlty on the move
all Tab TArget games , but you are not stationary in any way in any of them , there are many examples of this ..
But your ignorance and lack of basic knowledge of these systems is an indicator of who actually is not really understanding these systems ...
i know , next you will tell us that those are Action Combat games , which we will all have a good chuckle at
Again, and very simply put, if one is actively mobile while in combat, and able to dodge, block, parry, target, or otherwise attack while moving, it is ACTION COMBAT. These two words describe the combat style in its most simplest form. One can decide for themselves whether they are engaged in Action Combat, or not, if they are able to do the above while playing the game. Like I said in my post, there are different subtleties that can bleed into each combat style. But the underlying difference that differentiate both combat styles are foundational and distinct. No amount of denying, whining, complaining, word play, semantics, nit/cherry picking, or otherwise muddying of the issue, can change the fact. Its really not that hard to grasp unless one is being intentionally obtuse.
You wrong again , the fundamental difference between Tab Target and Action systems is the ability to lock a target .../end
In all the games i listed you can lock on the target and your skills will target them and them alone( AOEs are not part of this and not valid to this discussion pertaining to either system)
In a true action combat game like Tera or BDO you cannot lock a target all skills will only find there mark thru a crosshair system ..
In a Hybrid system like ESO ranged combat you can softlock a target , and your skills when fired off will target that player regardless of postionining or movement , The crosshair is not needed in this system , Relevant to this games ranged mechainics.
Now , with your comment above , are then saying that SWTOR and DAOC are Action Combat systems ... a yes or no would suffice..
And to expand on the systems ..
In DAOC for example when you lock Player X and swing your sword and player Z steps in front of it.. guess what your attack still hits Player X
In BDO if you swing your sword at Player X and Player Z steps in front it will hit Player Z
Even tho in both games you are activley Moving ...
Moving is not the key here .. The ability to LOCK aTARGET is what is difference and the only real difference ..
And this is the Fundamental differnece between a Tab Target abd Action Combat systems ..
The only muddying up thru this entire thread and others is your warped interpatations
Blade and Soul has the best action combat in my opinion. I love how it soft locks on your target and as long as you are facing your target the lock stays on.
the point you argued with me was ... ""Also,Tab -Targeting is still used more in MMORPGs by a very large margin .. Its not even close ""
I still stand by that and have proven that point ...
I shudder to stick my nose in here, but 52 MMOs out of 600+ is still less than the 10% already mentioned and forgotten.
As for "going back to tab targeting", how many of your list are less than 3 years old? Where is this "retro tab targeting trend" you spoke of?
Now, there is also a mention of "MMORPGs", which could muck up the whole thing, depending on one's definition of "MMORPG." Tab targeting does play into the "RPG" portion, in my opinion, but that's definitely not a given to any other player's opinion.
Well said.
I realize that there is a lot of confusion among many regarding this subject which is why I was really trying to be patient and understanding while discussing the subject in this thread. I believe that many are under the misguided opinion that simply because one is able to tab target a mob, that this automatically makes the game tab target combat. Defining the difference between Action Combat and Tab Target Combat is a lot more complicated than ascribing a game as Tab Target Combat simply because one is able to tab from one mob to another and after pressing a key watching the trajectory of the attack strike the target. There a distinct difference between the two combat styles. Sometimes they may bleed into each other subtly, yet the difference remains if one has a true understanding of the foundational mechanics that drive each combat style.
In a nutshell though, without going into deep detail and specifics, the difference lies in that in one style (Action Combat) the player is actively mobile and manually engaged in blocking, dodging, free lance targeting while attacking and in combat. In other words, the player is mobile and active while in combat, hence the term "Action Combat."
In the other combat style (Tab Targeting), the player stands stationary after tabbing a mob and proceeds to attack by pressing offensive assault skills. Generally speaking, with this style, the game can either reward you with points that you can assign to the various categories such as block, dodge, parry, agility, etc. These categories can also be found in gear, and when each is combined, allow the game to arbitrarily (RNG based) determine whether you are executing these actions (blocking, dodging, parrying, etc.), and how well you are able to perform and/or executive these abilities.
There are other combat dynamics that are integral to each, and that factor into the differences of each stated mechanic, but for the sake of brevity that is the basic difference, and the one that can be most easily recognized distinguishing one combat style from the other.
Its not well said its completley off base and incorrect as i showed in the above post ,
As for you , again you are wrong and moving goal posts..
First of all your in your first paragraph , no one said the Range combat and trajectory of arrows in ESO makes it a Tab Target game .. Again show where that was said and again you cant ,.. What was said is that it gives it a tab target feel(to me) , But that the game itself has overall Action feel to it .. This Very different than what you are trying to put out there
You have a way of cherry picking , twisting and leaving things out to make a point ( im sure it is becoming painfully obvious to this community)
The rest of your post is just a lack of experience and knowledge of the sytems being discussed ..
As in no way does a Tab Target game indicate a stationary player , evidence of this go as far back as UO , a Tab Target game .. but you will be moving ..
as in SWTOR as you are activley moving
as in DAOC with its multitude of facings and flanking attacks and blocks
As in FF14 which you are consatnlty on the move
all Tab TArget games , but you are not stationary in any way in any of them , there are many examples of this ..
But your ignorance and lack of basic knowledge of these systems is an indicator of who actually is not really understanding these systems ...
i know , next you will tell us that those are Action Combat games , which we will all have a good chuckle at
Again, and very simply put, if one is actively mobile while in combat, and able to dodge, block, parry, target, or otherwise attack while moving, it is ACTION COMBAT. These two words describe the combat style in its most simplest form. One can decide for themselves whether they are engaged in Action Combat, or not, if they are able to do the above while playing the game. Like I said in my post, there are different subtleties that can bleed into each combat style. But the underlying difference that differentiate both combat styles are foundational and distinct. No amount of denying, whining, complaining, word play, semantics, nit/cherry picking, or otherwise muddying of the issue, can change the fact. Its really not that hard to grasp unless one is being intentionally obtuse.
You wrong again , the fundamental difference between Tab Target and Action systems is the ability to lock a target .../end
In all the games i listed you can lock on the target and your skills will target them and them alone( AOEs are not part of this and not valid to this discussion pertaining to either system)
In a true action combat game like Tera or BDO you cannot lock a target all skills will only find there mark thru a crosshair system ..
In a Hybrid system like ESO ranged combat you can softlock a target , and your skills when fired off will target that player regardless of postionining or movement , The crosshair is not needed in this system , Relevant to this games ranged mechainics.
Now , with your comment above , are then saying that SWTOR and DAOC are Action Combat systems ... a yes or no would suffice..
And to expand on the systems ..
In DAOC for example when you lock Player X and swing your sword and player Z steps in front of it.. guess what your attack still hits Player X
In BDO if you swing your sword at Player X and Player Z steps in front it will hit Player Z
Even tho in both games you are activley Moving ...
Moving is not the key here .. The ability to LOCK aTARGET is what is difference and the only real difference
Your obsession to be right in this matter is bordering on unhealthy partner. My best advice is to just let it go. It will pass.
Blade and Soul has the best action combat in my opinion. I love how it soft locks on your target and as long as you are facing your target the lock stays on.
I watched a video on B&S yesterday , did look like a great system and the exact point the streamer made , was that its Combat system truly shined with the softlock in place
Given that the tab-targeting in WoW is usually broken, it's more accurate to call it click-targeting.
And from my standpoint, any method that requires you to physically select a target is more action based than merely facing it. That would be auto-targeting, meaning you don't do anything, thus no action on your part. Ez-mode targeting is what it should aptly be called.
And yes, in the real world if you were holding down the trigger of an AK-47 and turning around in place, you are technically "shooting" in the direction you are facing. You are NOT targeting anything, you are just spraying bullets in a general direction that just so happened to hit something.
Targeting requires careful aim and a conscious effort. You have selected your quarry. Now if you happen to miss it and kill something else, that wasn't due to your skill, but rather your ineptitude. That's why some games employ "friendly fire". Now imagine if in an action combat game, you turned and struck your allie because you were facing in that direction at the time that you swung? You should be punished for not having selected a target, not rewarded for it.
Action combat is an AK-47 on full auto. Tab-target is a sniper rifle carefully aimed. Some people just like a spray of bullets and a large body count not directly due to any skill on their part.
So you see, there are many different interpretations of targeting systems. There is never just one. And that will always be the case.
I think an issue action combat faces is how do you maintain the relevance of each player in a fight? Lets take one role the healer, in a game not using action combat, as trinity groups or in larger battles the healer heals.
But in the action combat MMOs I have played roles are toned down, the guy who heals is not really as essential, everyone can heal a bit or some other mechanism makes the role less vital.
This is quite astonishing when you think FPS, the premier of what action combat is about have no problem with roles. In a FPS say BF you have a medic, that's the guy who heals. I do realise however that many co-op games go for a more individually self sufficient approach which takes us back to more of a zerg feel to the combat. But that's the style of action combat they wanted. For MMOs we want more.
I think of action combat and tab-targeting as two different things.
Action combat, for me, involves any game that has timers but no auto-attack feature. If you didn't immediately push a button, you don't do damage. That's an 'action' game. The ratio of actions (attacks, heals, casts) to button pushes is 1:1, excluding DoTs and HoTs.
I see that there are several types of targeting. Individual targets, selected by click or tab (or other means). Group targets, also selected by click or tab. Character relative targets (in front or surrounding; no clicking involved). Untargeted attacks that affect points on the ground (almost always a click-on-ground operation).
A good number of more modern games use numerous area effect attacks and spells. These games tend to focus on Group and Character relative targeting methods. I've seen Untargeted only in special circumstances, like EQ1's Eye of Zomm spell or DAoC's siege catapult operation.
Movement as a means of hit/avoid is a character relative targeting method. It may include a targeting reticle (like Neverwinter), or not (one of the newer Conan games). Most FPS games use this type of targeting.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Blade and Soul has the best action combat in my opinion. I love how it soft locks on your target and as long as you are facing your target the lock stays on.
I watched a video on B&S yesterday , did look like a great system and the exact point the streamer made , was that its Combat system truly shined with the softlock in place
I remember trying to play an Archer in TERA and just could not do it. I would get into PVP battles and lose because I was missing my shots too much. The aim had to be pin point perfect. I quit the game because of it.
Action combat actually requires skill. You have to do everything you do in Tab Targeting and then several more things on top of it.
/thread
I think that depends on the action combat. In MMOs action combat is generally still real time turn based behind the scenes. I am not certain of this, but it seems that way as it usually is just pressing x at a certain time. It usually has little to do with real dodging out of the way of things or blocking things. Tab target games usually have a large quantity of more spells/abilities and requires a larger variety of activities and precise timing of them. One might have to heal the tank at a specific time, another might have to hold off on DPS temporarily until aggro is built, another might need to off tank, another might have to CC, another might be the puller. It can get fairly complex in terms of timing everything correctly.
Action combat actually requires skill. You have to do everything you do in Tab Targeting and then several more things on top of it.
/thread
I think that depends on the action combat. In MMOs action combat is generally still real time turn based behind the scenes. I am not certain of this, but it seems that way as it usually is just pressing x at a certain time. It usually has little to do with real dodging out of the way of things or blocking things. Tab target games usually have a large quantity of more spells/abilities and requires a larger variety of activities and precise timing of them. One might have to heal the tank at a specific time, another might have to hold off on DPS temporarily until aggro is built, another might need to off tank, another might have to CC, another might be the puller. It can get fairly complex in terms of timing everything correctly.
I find Action games easier to play for me ..... and i also get bored of them faster ... Where i still play for ex..... Anarchy Online and find incredible challenge and depth
Blade and Soul has the best action combat in my opinion. I love how it soft locks on your target and as long as you are facing your target the lock stays on.
I watched a video on B&S yesterday , did look like a great system and the exact point the streamer made , was that its Combat system truly shined with the softlock in place
I remember trying to play an Archer in TERA and just could not do it. I would get into PVP battles and lose because I was missing my shots too much. The aim had to be pin point perfect. I quit the game because of it.
Of all the Action Combat oriented games , i found TERA to have the best combat IMO,it felt great and it kept the spirit of the classes we have been accustomed to relevant , The Healer is really well done , where in some other action games it loses its relevance .. The Trinity works the best imo in TERA of all the action games ... ( shame i cant stand the lore)
Blade and Soul has the best action combat in my opinion. I love how it soft locks on your target and as long as you are facing your target the lock stays on.
I watched a video on B&S yesterday , did look like a great system and the exact point the streamer made , was that its Combat system truly shined with the softlock in place
I remember trying to play an Archer in TERA and just could not do it. I would get into PVP battles and lose because I was missing my shots too much. The aim had to be pin point perfect. I quit the game because of it.
Of all the Action Combat oriented games , i found TERA to have the best combat IMO,it felt great and it kept the spirit of the classes we have been accustomed to relevant , The Healer is really well done , where in some other action games it loses its relevance .. The Trinity works the best imo in TERA of all the action games ... ( shame i cant stand the lore)
People use to complain about being rooted in place but that is what made TERA's combat tactical. It was a great combat system but the aim was just unforgiving.
I forgot about trying to play the Zerker which was my first class. That was also brutal because how much you missed but if you did score a hit it was lights out for who ever got hit.
I think an issue action combat faces is how do you maintain the relevance of each player in a fight? Lets take one role the healer, in a game not using action combat, as trinity groups or in larger battles the healer heals.
But in the action combat MMOs I have played roles are toned down, the guy who heals is not really as essential, everyone can heal a bit or some other mechanism makes the role less vital.
This is quite astonishing when you think FPS, the premier of what action combat is about have no problem with roles. In a FPS say BF you have a medic, that's the guy who heals. I do realise however that many co-op games go for a more individually self sufficient approach which takes us back to more of a zerg feel to the combat. But that's the style of action combat they wanted. For MMOs we want more.
That is not really action combats fault, it is just that the games that uses it usually fail to add enough group dynamics. At worst they make all players DPS.
Action combat needs to be better at promoting co-operation. It doesn't really matter if you use static roles or not, what matters is that people should have to time their attacks and actions with eachother. Working as a close team should win the day, not just maximize your own damage per second and ignore what everyone else is doing.
And it have been around long enough for that by now, the devs need to get going and start to create a new real group dynamic for it.
Action combat actually requires skill. You have to do everything you do in Tab Targeting and then several more things on top of it.
/thread
Player skill, sure. Character skill no.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Action combat actually requires skill. You have to do everything you do in Tab Targeting and then several more things on top of it.
/thread
skill? if u get black belt in martial arts, thats skills. action combat in game? a few pvp here and there is fun because tactic changed everytime, but repetitive pve grind? same tactic for the same mob? nay
skill? if u get black belt in martial arts, thats skills. action combat in game? a few pvp here and there is fun because tactic changed everytime, but repetitive pve grind? same tactic for the same mob? nay
To be fair is that mainly because they put the PvE difficulty so low besides a few endgame raids. You don't really need any specific tactics to beat most MMO mobs anymore, you could defeat 95% of all content using the same simple skill rotation or macro in almost any modern MMO.
And you are right, that seriously need to be fixed. If you play a pen and paper roleplaying game you always change your tactics depending on who or what you are fighting, a anti-paladin and a dragon require very different tactics to beat after all. In a MMO you defeaty them the same way, the only difference is that they might have different AoE you need to get out of the way of now and again.
I am not sure I would use the word skill even if you needed to use different tactics and time your attacks just right though, tactics is a better word.
I think an issue action combat faces is how do you maintain the relevance of each player in a fight? Lets take one role the healer, in a game not using action combat, as trinity groups or in larger battles the healer heals.
But in the action combat MMOs I have played roles are toned down, the guy who heals is not really as essential, everyone can heal a bit or some other mechanism makes the role less vital.
This is quite astonishing when you think FPS, the premier of what action combat is about have no problem with roles. In a FPS say BF you have a medic, that's the guy who heals. I do realise however that many co-op games go for a more individually self sufficient approach which takes us back to more of a zerg feel to the combat. But that's the style of action combat they wanted. For MMOs we want more.
That is not really action combats fault, it is just that the games that uses it usually fail to add enough group dynamics. At worst they make all players DPS.
Action combat needs to be better at promoting co-operation. It doesn't really matter if you use static roles or not, what matters is that people should have to time their attacks and actions with eachother. Working as a close team should win the day, not just maximize your own damage per second and ignore what everyone else is doing.
And it have been around long enough for that by now, the devs need to get going and start to create a new real group dynamic for it.
This is exactly the sort of action combat we need, if FPS can do it, then MMOs can do it.
Action combat = you have to manually aim Tab Target = you automatically aim
Thats the only difference. Whoever was talking about tab-targetting meaning you always stand still in combat is an idiot, that's never been the case.
Personally, I'm a tab-target fan, but thats only because action combat is so poorly implemented. I like the idea of manually aiming, I like the idea of manually blocking and dodging. But, the implementation sucks ass. The first issue I always have is a lack of skills. Something like ESO with 6 skills on your bar, or Wildstar with 10.....boring! I mean seriously, how do you guys not get bored within a few hours?
Whenever I play an action combat game, I'm just bored shitless. It might take an hour, maybe two if I'm lucky, but then I've mastered the intellectual side of combat. When you've only got a small number of skills to choose from, making that choice is a piece of piss. After that point, it's just a case of training your body, building up that muscle memory. That requires no skill, just time. In RPGs, it doesn't even take that much time. People talk about action combat being "engaging", I don't buy that either. I have to concentrate more, sure, but that's not engagement. I'm not more invested in the outcome become im concentrating more. I'm not enjoying it more.
My usual cutoff point is around the 15-20 hour mark. Thats how long I can stand action combat before the boredom makes me quit. It means I can make it through most single player games, but an MMO where I expect to play for 1000+ hours?!
Tab target, in general, offers me a better solution. With a much larger array of skills, the combat remains much more engaging for much longer. When success or failure is based on making the correct choices in combat, rather than having the best muscle memory, I find it much more enjoyable. When it takes me months to master the combat system, rather than hours, I'm more likely to stick with it.
Thats not to say tab-target is always better. Simply having lots of skills does not result in a deep, engaging combat system. Just look at SW:TOR - tons of skills on each class, but one of the shallowest combat systems I've ever seen. But, having lots of skills at least gives the system potential for depth, and thus the potential for greater engagement.
My perfect system is a hybrid - the toolbars, skills and depth of the best designed tab-targeting games, but with the manual aiming and greater emphasis on movement from action combat.
The first issue I always have is a lack of skills. Something like ESO with 6 skills on your bar, or Wildstar with 10.....boring! I mean seriously, how do you guys not get bored within a few hours?
Yeah, I'll have to disagree with you on that.
I want less skills to no skills.
IF it's "fantasy/medieval" I want to hit and dodge and block. More like Mount and Blade I suppose.
Ranged, archery, no skills, just draw the bow and shoot.
Magic is a different bird all together and there of course it makes sense.
If it's something that is sci-fi or western then same thing. Aim, shoot, hide, dodge.
All that other stuff always seems like fluff.
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As for you , again you are wrong and moving goal posts..
First of all your in your first paragraph , no one said the Range combat and trajectory of arrows in ESO makes it a Tab Target game .. Again show where that was said and again you cant ,.. What was said is that it gives it a tab target feel(to me) , But that the game itself has overall Action feel to it .. This Very different than what you are trying to put out there
You have a way of cherry picking , twisting and leaving things out to make a point ( im sure it is becoming painfully obvious to this community)
The rest of your post is just a lack of experience and knowledge of the sytems being discussed ..
As in no way does a Tab Target game indicate a stationary player , evidence of this go as far back as UO , a Tab Target game .. but you will be moving ..
as in SWTOR as you are activley moving
as in DAOC with its multitude of facings and flanking attacks and blocks
As in FF14 which you are consatnlty on the move
all Tab TArget games , but you are not stationary in any way in any of them , there are many examples of this ..
But your ignorance and lack of basic knowledge of these systems is an indicator of who actually is not really understanding these systems ...
i know , next you will tell us that those are Action Combat games , which we will all have a good chuckle at
Again, and very simply put, if one is actively mobile while in combat, and able to dodge, block, parry, target, or otherwise free lance target and attack while moving, it is ACTION COMBAT. These two words describe the combat style in its most simplest form. One can decide for themselves whether they are engaged in Action Combat, or not, if they are able to do the above while playing the game. Like I said in my post, there are different subtleties that can bleed into each combat style. But the underlying difference that differentiate both combat styles are foundational and distinct. No amount of denying, whining, complaining, word play, semantics, nit/cherry picking, or otherwise muddying of the issue, can change the fact. Its really not that hard to grasp unless one is being intentionally obtuse.
In all the games i listed you can lock on the target and your skills will target them and them alone( AOEs are not part of this and not valid to this discussion pertaining to either system)
In a true action combat game like Tera or BDO you cannot lock a target all skills will only find there mark thru a crosshair system ..
In a Hybrid system like ESO ranged combat you can softlock a target , and your skills when fired off will target that player regardless of postionining or movement , The crosshair is not needed in this system , Relevant to this games ranged mechainics.
Now , with your comment above , are then saying that SWTOR and DAOC are Action Combat systems ... a yes or no would suffice..
And to expand on the systems ..
In DAOC for example when you lock Player X and swing your sword and player Z steps in front of it.. guess what your attack still hits Player X
In BDO if you swing your sword at Player X and Player Z steps in front it will hit Player Z
Even tho in both games you are activley Moving ...
Moving is not the key here .. The ability to LOCK aTARGET is what is difference and the only real difference ..
And this is the Fundamental differnece between a Tab Target abd Action Combat systems ..
The only muddying up thru this entire thread and others is your warped interpatations
Your obsession to be right in this matter is bordering on unhealthy partner. My best advice is to just let it go. It will pass.
And from my standpoint, any method that requires you to physically select a target is more action based than merely facing it. That would be auto-targeting, meaning you don't do anything, thus no action on your part. Ez-mode targeting is what it should aptly be called.
And yes, in the real world if you were holding down the trigger of an AK-47 and turning around in place, you are technically "shooting" in the direction you are facing. You are NOT targeting anything, you are just spraying bullets in a general direction that just so happened to hit something.
Targeting requires careful aim and a conscious effort. You have selected your quarry. Now if you happen to miss it and kill something else, that wasn't due to your skill, but rather your ineptitude.
That's why some games employ "friendly fire". Now imagine if in an action combat game, you turned and struck your allie because you were facing in that direction at the time that you swung? You should be punished for not having selected a target, not rewarded for it.
Action combat is an AK-47 on full auto. Tab-target is a sniper rifle carefully aimed. Some people just like a spray of bullets and a large body count not directly due to any skill on their part.
So you see, there are many different interpretations of targeting systems. There is never just one. And that will always be the case.
But in the action combat MMOs I have played roles are toned down, the guy who heals is not really as essential, everyone can heal a bit or some other mechanism makes the role less vital.
This is quite astonishing when you think FPS, the premier of what action combat is about have no problem with roles. In a FPS say BF you have a medic, that's the guy who heals. I do realise however that many co-op games go for a more individually self sufficient approach which takes us back to more of a zerg feel to the combat. But that's the style of action combat they wanted. For MMOs we want more.
Action combat, for me, involves any game that has timers but no auto-attack feature. If you didn't immediately push a button, you don't do damage. That's an 'action' game. The ratio of actions (attacks, heals, casts) to button pushes is 1:1, excluding DoTs and HoTs.
I see that there are several types of targeting. Individual targets, selected by click or tab (or other means). Group targets, also selected by click or tab. Character relative targets (in front or surrounding; no clicking involved). Untargeted attacks that affect points on the ground (almost always a click-on-ground operation).
A good number of more modern games use numerous area effect attacks and spells. These games tend to focus on Group and Character relative targeting methods. I've seen Untargeted only in special circumstances, like EQ1's Eye of Zomm spell or DAoC's siege catapult operation.
Movement as a means of hit/avoid is a character relative targeting method. It may include a targeting reticle (like Neverwinter), or not (one of the newer Conan games). Most FPS games use this type of targeting.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
/thread
People use to complain about being rooted in place but that is what made TERA's combat tactical. It was a great combat system but the aim was just unforgiving.
I forgot about trying to play the Zerker which was my first class. That was also brutal because how much you missed but if you did score a hit it was lights out for who ever got hit.
Action combat needs to be better at promoting co-operation. It doesn't really matter if you use static roles or not, what matters is that people should have to time their attacks and actions with eachother. Working as a close team should win the day, not just maximize your own damage per second and ignore what everyone else is doing.
And it have been around long enough for that by now, the devs need to get going and start to create a new real group dynamic for it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And you are right, that seriously need to be fixed. If you play a pen and paper roleplaying game you always change your tactics depending on who or what you are fighting, a anti-paladin and a dragon require very different tactics to beat after all. In a MMO you defeaty them the same way, the only difference is that they might have different AoE you need to get out of the way of now and again.
I am not sure I would use the word skill even if you needed to use different tactics and time your attacks just right though, tactics is a better word.
Tab Target = you automatically aim
Thats the only difference. Whoever was talking about tab-targetting meaning you always stand still in combat is an idiot, that's never been the case.
Personally, I'm a tab-target fan, but thats only because action combat is so poorly implemented. I like the idea of manually aiming, I like the idea of manually blocking and dodging. But, the implementation sucks ass. The first issue I always have is a lack of skills. Something like ESO with 6 skills on your bar, or Wildstar with 10.....boring! I mean seriously, how do you guys not get bored within a few hours?
Whenever I play an action combat game, I'm just bored shitless. It might take an hour, maybe two if I'm lucky, but then I've mastered the intellectual side of combat. When you've only got a small number of skills to choose from, making that choice is a piece of piss. After that point, it's just a case of training your body, building up that muscle memory. That requires no skill, just time. In RPGs, it doesn't even take that much time. People talk about action combat being "engaging", I don't buy that either. I have to concentrate more, sure, but that's not engagement. I'm not more invested in the outcome become im concentrating more. I'm not enjoying it more.
My usual cutoff point is around the 15-20 hour mark. Thats how long I can stand action combat before the boredom makes me quit. It means I can make it through most single player games, but an MMO where I expect to play for 1000+ hours?!
Tab target, in general, offers me a better solution. With a much larger array of skills, the combat remains much more engaging for much longer. When success or failure is based on making the correct choices in combat, rather than having the best muscle memory, I find it much more enjoyable. When it takes me months to master the combat system, rather than hours, I'm more likely to stick with it.
Thats not to say tab-target is always better. Simply having lots of skills does not result in a deep, engaging combat system. Just look at SW:TOR - tons of skills on each class, but one of the shallowest combat systems I've ever seen. But, having lots of skills at least gives the system potential for depth, and thus the potential for greater engagement.
My perfect system is a hybrid - the toolbars, skills and depth of the best designed tab-targeting games, but with the manual aiming and greater emphasis on movement from action combat.
I want less skills to no skills.
IF it's "fantasy/medieval" I want to hit and dodge and block. More like Mount and Blade I suppose.
Ranged, archery, no skills, just draw the bow and shoot.
Magic is a different bird all together and there of course it makes sense.
If it's something that is sci-fi or western then same thing. Aim, shoot, hide, dodge.
All that other stuff always seems like fluff.
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