As useless as before, and as expectable on my side, the clear intent to just be a huge list of incomplete and "broken promises, adding little things that aren't delivered (including adding many items that weren't promised) yet not mentioning large features that have been delivered; heavily manipulated.
But dont most of those features on the list point to the source? How is that a useless list and how was it manipulated? Almost every item has a link beside it that takes you to a CIG page or video that shows it. Are you suggesting CIG is advertising features it has no intention of including in its game?
I think the suggestion, which is entirely valid, is that the list is comprised of items which are both part of the scope of the project and part of the vision of what the project might be in the future. What's problematic with the tracker is that it doesn't distinguish between that. So you never really get a good idea of what is real and what isn't.
Kinda like the project itself right? Chris and company have thrown around so much bullshit it’s hard to differentiate what’s real with the project and what isn’t. Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because it’s so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
Lol, come on, man. Are we really going there? If you've gone through any number of the links, you KNOW what I'm talking about. Based on what you're saying here, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about, so why be so fucking obtuse? THIS is the problem. The project is wildly behind schedule, even based on the most liberal of estimates. At this point, we're approaching that point where arguing whether the project is on schedule or not becomes laughable, and anyone who would defend the project, saying it's right on schedule would be equally as absurd as someone believing that this tracker is somehow useful beyond tracking things that came out of someone's mouth at some point.
Who said I was arguing that the project is on schedule or not? I was saying that CIG likes to vomit information, helpful or not, which muddies the waters when it comes to know what the hell is going on with the project.
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
So its CiG's fault that they have listed mining 3.0 and mining 3.1 as two features; trading 3.0 and Trading 3.1 as two features? And a host of others. Really? Its stupidity or an agenda. You can decide.
Very early on, doubt was (predictably) cast on the list due to the source of it. It was suggested that because the goons and DS are "enemies of SC" that everything they list would automatically be suspect, and anything mis-categorized would obviously be through malice of forethought, and not simple human error.
It was suggested, or at least implied, that it would be better if fans of SC maintained such a list to "keep it more honest". However, I would be even less trusting of such a source. If the amount of semantics and apologetic spin demonstrated in this thread (and elsewhere) is any indication, the entire list would be equally, if not moreso, biased for SC.
The idea that a fan of SC would be any more objective or unbiased in keeping such a list than the goons are requires a special kind of credulity.
If there's one thing I've noticed in following this for the past years, it's that neither side has a monopoly on honest, unbiased objectivity. In fact, both sides are utterly devoid of it.
If you want a true objective keeping, find someone who couldn't care less about the game either way and isn't on either side of the fence. Would probably have to pay them to be bothered, though.
Here's how a list of the progress of SC promised stretch goals is kept within one objective and unbiased matter, the delivery of each stretch goal is a matter of fact, not opinions.
And guess what, maintained by the fans of SC. You talk that a list created by the fans would be "equality if not more biased", yet there it is, quite simple, X feature, if it is released it is, if it is not it's not.
While this list, even manipulates things that are released as undelivered, barely adds the delivered feature-set of past updates to the list and faults at the very core by listing items that are not confirmed features just because they were mentioned (over what @gervaise1 also brought up multiple lists of the same feature).
Here's how a list of the progress of SC promised stretch goals is kept within one objective and unbiased matter, the delivery of each stretch goal is a matter of fact, not opinions.
And guess what, maintained by the fans of SC. You talk that a list created by the fans would be "equality if not more biased", yet there it is, quite simple, X feature, if it is released it is, if it is not it's not.
While this list, even manipulates things that are released as undelivered, barely adds the delivered feature-set of past updates to the list and faults at the very core by listing items that are not confirmed features just because they were mentioned (over what @gervaise1 also brought up multiple lists of the same feature).
And I can point out flaws easily in that list as well.
Example being wingmans hanger webcast still listed as ongoing. Didn’t he leave the project years ago and already release his own space game? Yes I know it’s a easy target but I’m not against cheap shots.
Complete(initial implementation) for the dog fighting module. If it’s in its initial implementation then how is it complete? Initial implementation would generally mean they are going to change it to a finished implementation so it should be in progress.
lets ignore the stupid ones like on going for community updates and take the list at face value then (I may have missed a few and added the town halls or whatever to in progress so feel free to correct and I will update this list. Don’t count townhalls or wingman’s since those aren’t part of the finished game)
36% unknown with the stretch goals 16% complete stretch goals 49% in progress stretch goals
compared with the evil goon tracker
24% unknown (added the compromised, stagnant and broken goals) 59% in progress (added in alpha and not implemented and that’s generous in my mind) 17% completed
that doesn’t seem that far off from the shining example of the backer tracker now does it? So are you telling me the evil evil goons who seem just about spot on with the percentage in terms of completed features are skewing the list in their favour to portray SC as something evil or perhaps your bias is kicking in and you’re seeing the boogeyman where one doesn’t exist?
As useless as before, and as expectable on my side, the clear intent to just be a huge list of incomplete and "broken promises, adding little things that aren't delivered (including adding many items that weren't promised) yet not mentioning large features that have been delivered; heavily manipulated.
But dont most of those features on the list point to the source? How is that a useless list and how was it manipulated? Almost every item has a link beside it that takes you to a CIG page or video that shows it. Are you suggesting CIG is advertising features it has no intention of including in its game?
I think the suggestion, which is entirely valid, is that the list is comprised of items which are both part of the scope of the project and part of the vision of what the project might be in the future. What's problematic with the tracker is that it doesn't distinguish between that. So you never really get a good idea of what is real and what isn't.
Kinda like the project itself right? Chris and company have thrown around so much bullshit it’s hard to differentiate what’s real with the project and what isn’t. Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because it’s so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
Lol, come on, man. Are we really going there? If you've gone through any number of the links, you KNOW what I'm talking about. Based on what you're saying here, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about, so why be so fucking obtuse? THIS is the problem. The project is wildly behind schedule, even based on the most liberal of estimates. At this point, we're approaching that point where arguing whether the project is on schedule or not becomes laughable, and anyone who would defend the project, saying it's right on schedule would be equally as absurd as someone believing that this tracker is somehow useful beyond tracking things that came out of someone's mouth at some point.
Who said I was arguing that the project is on schedule or not? I was saying that CIG likes to vomit information, helpful or not, which muddies the waters when it comes to know what the hell is going on with the project.
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
We are gamers and we will hold everyone accountable to everything they have said regardless if it was said in jest or not!!
And hell Ella no I haven’t combed through all those citations for validity. Have you gone through them all to make sure those evil goons are trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
When you selectively quote it makes it sound like yeah what you said is right but let’s put it into context shall we.
I said ”Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because ya so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.”
You said ”Erillion and Max do not always have the same opinion and sometimes disagree”
You agreed with me that you disagree with Max. You didn’t implicitly state because the project has muddy waters in what they are doing but that would be why. If they put out useful information that wasn’t 95% drivel or so badly worded that everyone and their mother interprets it a different way then everyone would be on the same page.
Oh come on, its the internet.
By definition everyone and their mother interprets information there in a different way !
Have fun
Shit. I can’t argue with that logic cause I know it’s true lol
And I can point out flaws easily in that list as well.
Example being wingmans hanger webcast still listed as ongoing. Didn’t he leave the project years ago and already release his own space game? Yes I know it’s a easy target but I’m not against cheap shots.
Complete(initial implementation) for the dog fighting module. If it’s in its initial implementation then how is it complete? Initial implementation would generally mean they are going to change it to a finished implementation so it should be in progress.
lets ignore the stupid ones like on going for community updates and take the list at face value then (I may have missed a few and added the town halls or whatever to in progress so feel free to correct and I will update this list. Don’t count townhalls or wingman’s since those aren’t part of the finished game)
36% unknown with the stretch goals 16% complete stretch goals 49% in progress stretch goals
compared with the evil goon tracker
24% unknown (added the compromised, stagnant and broken goals) 59% in progress (added in alpha and not implemented and that’s generous in my mind) 17% completed
that doesn’t seem that far off from the shining example of the backer tracker now does it? So are you telling me the evil evil goons who seem just about spot on with the percentage in terms of completed features are skewing the list in their favour to portray SC as something evil or perhaps your bias is kicking in and you’re seeing the boogeyman where one doesn’t exist?
The wingman's hangar shouldn't be ongoing yes.
That goal is complete, the goal is about the backers getting to play the module, what happened.
Your last point is irrelevant, one does achieve the number by prioritizing accuracy, the other goes around with all sorts of BS, that argument of yours doesn't legitimate the data that in there lies.
If anything it only makes this goon list look even worse, where they had to come up with all those silly things, from listing things that were not confirmed features, to add multiple entries about the same feature, to misleading/wrong labeling, to barely adding the delivered feature-set the game has gotten in its past updates, to achieve a similar number as the % of completed stretch goals.
If there is a boogeyman, is for who maintains this list, such being the ability to be accurate and honest to the actual scope of the game.
And I can point out flaws easily in that list as well.
Example being wingmans hanger webcast still listed as ongoing. Didn’t he leave the project years ago and already release his own space game? Yes I know it’s a easy target but I’m not against cheap shots.
Complete(initial implementation) for the dog fighting module. If it’s in its initial implementation then how is it complete? Initial implementation would generally mean they are going to change it to a finished implementation so it should be in progress.
lets ignore the stupid ones like on going for community updates and take the list at face value then (I may have missed a few and added the town halls or whatever to in progress so feel free to correct and I will update this list. Don’t count townhalls or wingman’s since those aren’t part of the finished game)
36% unknown with the stretch goals 16% complete stretch goals 49% in progress stretch goals
compared with the evil goon tracker
24% unknown (added the compromised, stagnant and broken goals) 59% in progress (added in alpha and not implemented and that’s generous in my mind) 17% completed
that doesn’t seem that far off from the shining example of the backer tracker now does it? So are you telling me the evil evil goons who seem just about spot on with the percentage in terms of completed features are skewing the list in their favour to portray SC as something evil or perhaps your bias is kicking in and you’re seeing the boogeyman where one doesn’t exist?
The wingman's hangar shouldn't be ongoing yes.
That goal is complete, the goal is about the backers getting to play the module, what happened.
Your last point is irrelevant, one does achieve the number by prioritizing accuracy, the other goes around with all sorts of BS, that argument of yours doesn't legitimate the data that in there lies.
If anything it only makes this goon list look even worse, where they had to come up with all those silly things, from listing things that were not confirmed features, to add multiple entries about the same feature, to misleading/wrong labeling, to barely adding the delivered feature-set the game has gotten in its past updates, to achieve a similar number as the % of completed stretch goals.
If there is a boogeyman, is for who maintains this list, such being the ability to be accurate and honest to the actual scope of the game.
So if the goon list is wrong and just made up then the items listed as complete on that list make the items listed in your list fake and wrong as well?
So if the goon list is wrong and just made up then the items listed as complete on that list make the items listed in your list fake and wrong as well?
Entirely possible. If some of the quote features unquote shouldn't be on the list.
A simple list of planned features shown as complete or not maybe that serves a purpose. It fails to do that though because the list is flawed. Due to stupidity or not.
And even if the list wasn't flawed it would fail as a netric to track progress. See my earlier post about painting walls.
Now if you were to suggest that CiG are "over zealous" lets say with target dates and maybe could do better I don't think anyone would "disagree". Discuss it maybe but not disagree. Trying to defend a flawed list which is then used in a flawed way - I suggest you are "beating a dead horse".
So if the goon list is wrong and just made up then the items listed as complete on that list make the items listed in your list fake and wrong as well?
Entirely possible. If some of the quote features unquote shouldn't be on the list.
A simple list of planned features shown as complete or not maybe that serves a purpose. It fails to do that though because the list is flawed. Due to stupidity or not.
And even if the list wasn't flawed it would fail as a netric to track progress. See my earlier post about painting walls.
Now if you were to suggest that CiG are "over zealous" lets say with target dates and maybe could do better I don't think anyone would "disagree". Discuss it maybe but not disagree. Trying to defend a flawed list which is then used in a flawed way - I suggest you are "beating a dead horse".
I’ve never said the list is perfect in any way. I believe I’ve even said myself it’s flawed but it has some good points in it. If you can get past the mining in 3.0 and mining in 3.1 or similar examples then it’s not a horrible list.
Anything goon created I would take with a grain of salt much like anything that comes from the mouth of CR or CIG’s marketing team I would take with a massive dump truck of salt.
As useless as before, and as expectable on my side, the clear intent to just be a huge list of incomplete and "broken promises, adding little things that aren't delivered (including adding many items that weren't promised) yet not mentioning large features that have been delivered; heavily manipulated.
But dont most of those features on the list point to the source? How is that a useless list and how was it manipulated? Almost every item has a link beside it that takes you to a CIG page or video that shows it. Are you suggesting CIG is advertising features it has no intention of including in its game?
I think the suggestion, which is entirely valid, is that the list is comprised of items which are both part of the scope of the project and part of the vision of what the project might be in the future. What's problematic with the tracker is that it doesn't distinguish between that. So you never really get a good idea of what is real and what isn't.
Kinda like the project itself right? Chris and company have thrown around so much bullshit it’s hard to differentiate what’s real with the project and what isn’t. Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because it’s so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
Lol, come on, man. Are we really going there? If you've gone through any number of the links, you KNOW what I'm talking about. Based on what you're saying here, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about, so why be so fucking obtuse? THIS is the problem. The project is wildly behind schedule, even based on the most liberal of estimates. At this point, we're approaching that point where arguing whether the project is on schedule or not becomes laughable, and anyone who would defend the project, saying it's right on schedule would be equally as absurd as someone believing that this tracker is somehow useful beyond tracking things that came out of someone's mouth at some point.
Who said I was arguing that the project is on schedule or not? I was saying that CIG likes to vomit information, helpful or not, which muddies the waters when it comes to know what the hell is going on with the project.
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
We are gamers and we will hold everyone accountable to everything they have said regardless if it was said in jest or not!!
And hell Ella no I haven’t combed through all those citations for validity. Have you gone through them all to make sure those evil goons are trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
I'll disagree that everyone is held accountable. There are great deals of projects where that isn't the case, and I would make the argument that there isn't a single one with the level of accountability seen here. Unless you've got examples?
I went through a solid 30 or 40 items. I'm assuming that's probably more than most.
As useless as before, and as expectable on my side, the clear intent to just be a huge list of incomplete and "broken promises, adding little things that aren't delivered (including adding many items that weren't promised) yet not mentioning large features that have been delivered; heavily manipulated.
But dont most of those features on the list point to the source? How is that a useless list and how was it manipulated? Almost every item has a link beside it that takes you to a CIG page or video that shows it. Are you suggesting CIG is advertising features it has no intention of including in its game?
I think the suggestion, which is entirely valid, is that the list is comprised of items which are both part of the scope of the project and part of the vision of what the project might be in the future. What's problematic with the tracker is that it doesn't distinguish between that. So you never really get a good idea of what is real and what isn't.
Kinda like the project itself right? Chris and company have thrown around so much bullshit it’s hard to differentiate what’s real with the project and what isn’t. Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because it’s so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
Lol, come on, man. Are we really going there? If you've gone through any number of the links, you KNOW what I'm talking about. Based on what you're saying here, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about, so why be so fucking obtuse? THIS is the problem. The project is wildly behind schedule, even based on the most liberal of estimates. At this point, we're approaching that point where arguing whether the project is on schedule or not becomes laughable, and anyone who would defend the project, saying it's right on schedule would be equally as absurd as someone believing that this tracker is somehow useful beyond tracking things that came out of someone's mouth at some point.
Who said I was arguing that the project is on schedule or not? I was saying that CIG likes to vomit information, helpful or not, which muddies the waters when it comes to know what the hell is going on with the project.
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
We are gamers and we will hold everyone accountable to everything they have said regardless if it was said in jest or not!!
And hell Ella no I haven’t combed through all those citations for validity. Have you gone through them all to make sure those evil goons are trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
I'll disagree that everyone is held accountable. There are great deals of projects where that isn't the case, and I would make the argument that there isn't a single one with the level of accountability seen here. Unless you've got examples?
I went through a solid 30 or 40 items. I'm assuming that's probably more than most.
I think CR is held accountable more then others because of his history with failed game studios and not making a game in over a decade. I know Brad McQuaid came under fire for taking 35k as a 3 month advance salary from the project and his life was under a microscope after that
As useless as before, and as expectable on my side, the clear intent to just be a huge list of incomplete and "broken promises, adding little things that aren't delivered (including adding many items that weren't promised) yet not mentioning large features that have been delivered; heavily manipulated.
But dont most of those features on the list point to the source? How is that a useless list and how was it manipulated? Almost every item has a link beside it that takes you to a CIG page or video that shows it. Are you suggesting CIG is advertising features it has no intention of including in its game?
I think the suggestion, which is entirely valid, is that the list is comprised of items which are both part of the scope of the project and part of the vision of what the project might be in the future. What's problematic with the tracker is that it doesn't distinguish between that. So you never really get a good idea of what is real and what isn't.
Kinda like the project itself right? Chris and company have thrown around so much bullshit it’s hard to differentiate what’s real with the project and what isn’t. Hell a few times we’ve had Erillion and Max disagree on what they were doing because it’s so unclear in the wording and terminology that no one can say for sure what the hell is going on.
Perhaps if CIG wasn’t such a mess with their communications then the tracker would be more clear but it’s only as good as the info it tracks
Lol, come on, man. Are we really going there? If you've gone through any number of the links, you KNOW what I'm talking about. Based on what you're saying here, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about, so why be so fucking obtuse? THIS is the problem. The project is wildly behind schedule, even based on the most liberal of estimates. At this point, we're approaching that point where arguing whether the project is on schedule or not becomes laughable, and anyone who would defend the project, saying it's right on schedule would be equally as absurd as someone believing that this tracker is somehow useful beyond tracking things that came out of someone's mouth at some point.
Who said I was arguing that the project is on schedule or not? I was saying that CIG likes to vomit information, helpful or not, which muddies the waters when it comes to know what the hell is going on with the project.
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
We are gamers and we will hold everyone accountable to everything they have said regardless if it was said in jest or not!!
And hell Ella no I haven’t combed through all those citations for validity. Have you gone through them all to make sure those evil goons are trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
I'll disagree that everyone is held accountable. There are great deals of projects where that isn't the case, and I would make the argument that there isn't a single one with the level of accountability seen here. Unless you've got examples?
I went through a solid 30 or 40 items. I'm assuming that's probably more than most.
I think CR is held accountable more then others because of his history with failed game studios and not making a game in over a decade. I know Brad McQuaid came under fire for taking 35k as a 3 month advance salary from the project and his life was under a microscope after that
Was it? Was Brad under a microscope? For like, what? 2 weeks?
Just for the record, if we're talking about those two, Brad, by a landslide, owns the best failed studio story for his infamous parking lot firing. CR had, what? 1 failed studio? 1 failed studio that was bought up by another company and maintained through the release of the product? Yeah, man, what an asshole! Not to mention that the game he was making was effectively Star Citizen, and he was trying to do it 2 decades ago. For a title that remains innocative today... 2 decades later. I don't know, I think that's actually pretty ballsy. Also, for 2 decades ago, I think the failure of the studio should have been an inevitability. Tell me someone who has created a game 2 decades ahead of it's time? The answer is none.
Honestly, in a day and age when people whine and complain about there not being enough innovation, it's examples like Star Citizen, and this new H1Z1 auto royale thing getting shit on that should give people a pretty good indication of why studios don't take risks.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to balloon CR's ego here, because the project itself has been executed pretty horribly at so many levels. However, they also have the money to weather many of those storms. I mean we're at that point where Alpha is out, so a release, at some point in the future, is pretty much an inevitability. So if nothing else, this type of tracker and the Internet trolls might actually do something useful for once and spur innovation. However, it's not really the time for that right now. When you have someone who is distracted by shiny objects, putting him in a maze of mirrors with dangling crystals is probably a bad idea when he should be focusing on the MVP.
Cash shop to take your money works with no issues. The game, seen some demos. Big list of incomplete promised features. Innovation......yup, its others fault that they cant get their so called innovations working.
When you brag you are making the best game ever and take in as much money as they say they have you better believe they are going to be under a microscope. Specially when they have a history for making promises and not delivering. Its funny you think its not normal to question this situation.
Also, the fans that constantly ignore facts and defend everything also has contributed to the current SC situation.
Cash shop to take your money works with no issues. The game, seen some demos. Big list of incomplete promised features. Innovation......yup, its others fault that they cant get their so called innovations working.
When you brag you are making the best game ever and take in as much money as they say they have you better believe they are going to be under a microscope. Specially when they have a history for making promises and not delivering. Its funny you think its not normal to question this situation.
Also, the fans that constantly ignore facts and defend everything also has contributed to the current SC situation.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? Or are you just being obtuse? I'm not defending anything. If you actually took the time to read anything, you would have seen that I quite openly stated that the project has pretty much been horribly managed throughout.
Are you saying that the game is not innovative? Please! Enlighten me how the feature set that is being proposed is in every game out there already. Again, one of the biggest problems facing gaming today isn't technology it's fucking retards. Seriously! I get it, you don't like the game, the company, the staff, and the list goes on. However, if you're unable to remove your head from your ass to make an accurate assessment of the product as it is proposed then, please, do the world a favor and just don't say anything because you just sound stupid.
Thank you, though, for proving my point about how the community is a factor preventing innovation in the industry. Congrats!
It will be interesting to see when they start beta testing. I'm thinking it's still about 2 to 3 years away. 2021?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well, even going by CiG's own (likely overly optimistic and already having aspects of it delayed) roadmap, the game is not going into beta in 2018, that's for sure.
It will be interesting to see when they start beta testing. I'm thinking it's still about 2 to 3 years away. 2021?
Well, in a typical project, the alpha & beta test cycles should represent like 30%-ish of your schedule. Ideally, you'd like to have beta represent like 10% of your schedule only.
I bolded typical for multiple reasons. First, we're talking about Star Citizen which has more warts than the wicked old witch. Secondly, the climate is just so much different, in general. With early access and other early adoption programs, alpha and beta buy-in programs, etc. it just isn't typical at all in the games industry. So you could be right, it might not be until 2021, or it could be next year. Fuck, if we believe Destiny, your beta could last weeks, lol. Just such a shit show now that predicting anything beyond saying that an alpha should indicate it will release at some point in the future, would just be guesswork.
Cash shop to take your money works with no issues. The game, seen some demos. Big list of incomplete promised features. Innovation......yup, its others fault that they cant get their so called innovations working.
When you brag you are making the best game ever and take in as much money as they say they have you better believe they are going to be under a microscope. Specially when they have a history for making promises and not delivering. Its funny you think its not normal to question this situation.
Also, the fans that constantly ignore facts and defend everything also has contributed to the current SC situation.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? Or are you just being obtuse? I'm not defending anything. If you actually took the time to read anything, you would have seen that I quite openly stated that the project has pretty much been horribly managed throughout.
Are you saying that the game is not innovative? Please! Enlighten me how the feature set that is being proposed is in every game out there already. Again, one of the biggest problems facing gaming today isn't technology it's fucking retards. Seriously! I get it, you don't like the game, the company, the staff, and the list goes on. However, if you're unable to remove your head from your ass to make an accurate assessment of the product as it is proposed then, please, do the world a favor and just don't say anything because you just sound stupid.
Thank you, though, for proving my point about how the community is a factor preventing innovation in the industry. Congrats!
I don’t consider it innovative if they can’t get it working in the actual game. Anyone can come up with ideas that will innovate any industry but that doesn’t mean they are possible. My 4 year old would like people to have super powers, that’s innovating people but doesn’t mean my son is an innovator because he can’t pull that off
I don’t consider it innovative if they can’t get it working in the actual game. Anyone can come up with ideas that will innovate any industry but that doesn’t mean they are possible. My 4 year old would like people to have super powers, that’s innovating people but doesn’t mean my son is an innovator because he can’t pull that off
Hmm, it depends.
Does your 4 year old listen to the name Kal-El ?
Can he lift cars and see the contents of the fridge without opening the door ?
Does he occasionally turn back time by flying fast retrograde around your house ?
Cash shop to take your money works with no issues. The game, seen some demos. Big list of incomplete promised features. Innovation......yup, its others fault that they cant get their so called innovations working.
When you brag you are making the best game ever and take in as much money as they say they have you better believe they are going to be under a microscope. Specially when they have a history for making promises and not delivering. Its funny you think its not normal to question this situation.
Also, the fans that constantly ignore facts and defend everything also has contributed to the current SC situation.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? Or are you just being obtuse? I'm not defending anything. If you actually took the time to read anything, you would have seen that I quite openly stated that the project has pretty much been horribly managed throughout.
Are you saying that the game is not innovative? Please! Enlighten me how the feature set that is being proposed is in every game out there already. Again, one of the biggest problems facing gaming today isn't technology it's fucking retards. Seriously! I get it, you don't like the game, the company, the staff, and the list goes on. However, if you're unable to remove your head from your ass to make an accurate assessment of the product as it is proposed then, please, do the world a favor and just don't say anything because you just sound stupid.
Thank you, though, for proving my point about how the community is a factor preventing innovation in the industry. Congrats!
I don’t consider it innovative if they can’t get it working in the actual game. Anyone can come up with ideas that will innovate any industry but that doesn’t mean they are possible. My 4 year old would like people to have super powers, that’s innovating people but doesn’t mean my son is an innovator because he can’t pull that off
Agreed! However, even those who have played the alpha and are vocal opponents of the project have said it's one of the most beautiful games ever made. That alone is innovation. As for the rest of the features go, who fucking knows. High-concept, poor execution. I don't think that all innovations will be in the game, but I believe that there will be innovations that they introduce into the final product (if not already in there). They might not be great, they might not be efficient, but there will likely be something(s).
His ego is way to big to let him run. The worse would be to find someone else to blame for a failure.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
But it really doesn't muddy anything. People say shit all the time. You need not look any further than south. I don't see too many people holding other people and what they say so accountable to their word than they do here. I swear, if CR said in jest, that he'd like to deliver all backers a real ray gun just to show how much he appreciates their patience, the next day that would show up on the list, citation and all.
Honestly, it really is hilarious to me. So are you saying that you've combed through all those citations and you're in agreement that the vast majority of the items are CR committing to develop a feature? Like committing an item to scope? Just trying to establish where you're at here.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
It has been said that to get the truest look at progress is to watch it being played on stream.
(not my quote)
As to this "list" it is goon ran and endorsed meaning it is worthless.
It was suggested, or at least implied, that it would be better if fans of SC maintained such a list to "keep it more honest". However, I would be even less trusting of such a source. If the amount of semantics and apologetic spin demonstrated in this thread (and elsewhere) is any indication, the entire list would be equally, if not moreso, biased for SC.
The idea that a fan of SC would be any more objective or unbiased in keeping such a list than the goons are requires a special kind of credulity.
If there's one thing I've noticed in following this for the past years, it's that neither side has a monopoly on honest, unbiased objectivity. In fact, both sides are utterly devoid of it.
If you want a true objective keeping, find someone who couldn't care less about the game either way and isn't on either side of the fence. Would probably have to pay them to be bothered, though.
Have a look: https://starcitizen.tools/Stretch_Goals
Here's how a list of the progress of SC promised stretch goals is kept within one objective and unbiased matter, the delivery of each stretch goal is a matter of fact, not opinions.
And guess what, maintained by the fans of SC. You talk that a list created by the fans would be "equality if not more biased", yet there it is, quite simple, X feature, if it is released it is, if it is not it's not.
While this list, even manipulates things that are released as undelivered, barely adds the delivered feature-set of past updates to the list and faults at the very core by listing items that are not confirmed features just because they were mentioned (over what @gervaise1 also brought up multiple lists of the same feature).
Example being wingmans hanger webcast still listed as ongoing. Didn’t he leave the project years ago and already release his own space game? Yes I know it’s a easy target but I’m not against cheap shots.
Complete(initial implementation) for the dog fighting module. If it’s in its initial implementation then how is it complete? Initial implementation would generally mean they are going to change it to a finished implementation so it should be in progress.
lets ignore the stupid ones like on going for community updates and take the list at face value then (I may have missed a few and added the town halls or whatever to in progress so feel free to correct and I will update this list. Don’t count townhalls or wingman’s since those aren’t part of the finished game)
36% unknown with the stretch goals
16% complete stretch goals
49% in progress stretch goals
compared with the evil goon tracker
24% unknown (added the compromised, stagnant and broken goals)
59% in progress (added in alpha and not implemented and that’s generous in my mind)
17% completed
that doesn’t seem that far off from the shining example of the backer tracker now does it? So are you telling me the evil evil goons who seem just about spot on with the percentage in terms of completed features are skewing the list in their favour to portray SC as something evil or perhaps your bias is kicking in and you’re seeing the boogeyman where one doesn’t exist?
And hell Ella no I haven’t combed through all those citations for validity. Have you gone through them all to make sure those evil goons are trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
That goal is complete, the goal is about the backers getting to play the module, what happened.
Your last point is irrelevant, one does achieve the number by prioritizing accuracy, the other goes around with all sorts of BS, that argument of yours doesn't legitimate the data that in there lies.
If anything it only makes this goon list look even worse, where they had to come up with all those silly things, from listing things that were not confirmed features, to add multiple entries about the same feature, to misleading/wrong labeling, to barely adding the delivered feature-set the game has gotten in its past updates, to achieve a similar number as the % of completed stretch goals.
If there is a boogeyman, is for who maintains this list, such being the ability to be accurate and honest to the actual scope of the game.
A simple list of planned features shown as complete or not maybe that serves a purpose. It fails to do that though because the list is flawed. Due to stupidity or not.
And even if the list wasn't flawed it would fail as a netric to track progress. See my earlier post about painting walls.
Now if you were to suggest that CiG are "over zealous" lets say with target dates and maybe could do better I don't think anyone would "disagree". Discuss it maybe but not disagree. Trying to defend a flawed list which is then used in a flawed way - I suggest you are "beating a dead horse".
Anything goon created I would take with a grain of salt much like anything that comes from the mouth of CR or CIG’s marketing team I would take with a massive dump truck of salt.
I'll disagree that everyone is held accountable. There are great deals of projects where that isn't the case, and I would make the argument that there isn't a single one with the level of accountability seen here. Unless you've got examples?
I went through a solid 30 or 40 items. I'm assuming that's probably more than most.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Was it? Was Brad under a microscope? For like, what? 2 weeks?
Just for the record, if we're talking about those two, Brad, by a landslide, owns the best failed studio story for his infamous parking lot firing. CR had, what? 1 failed studio? 1 failed studio that was bought up by another company and maintained through the release of the product? Yeah, man, what an asshole! Not to mention that the game he was making was effectively Star Citizen, and he was trying to do it 2 decades ago. For a title that remains innocative today... 2 decades later. I don't know, I think that's actually pretty ballsy. Also, for 2 decades ago, I think the failure of the studio should have been an inevitability. Tell me someone who has created a game 2 decades ahead of it's time? The answer is none.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The game, seen some demos.
Big list of incomplete promised features.
Innovation......yup, its others fault that they cant get their so called innovations working.
When you brag you are making the best game ever and take in as much money as they say they have you better believe they are going to be under a microscope. Specially when they have a history for making promises and not delivering. Its funny you think its not normal to question this situation.
Also, the fans that constantly ignore facts and defend everything also has contributed to the current SC situation.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? Or are you just being obtuse? I'm not defending anything. If you actually took the time to read anything, you would have seen that I quite openly stated that the project has pretty much been horribly managed throughout.
Are you saying that the game is not innovative? Please! Enlighten me how the feature set that is being proposed is in every game out there already. Again, one of the biggest problems facing gaming today isn't technology it's fucking retards. Seriously! I get it, you don't like the game, the company, the staff, and the list goes on. However, if you're unable to remove your head from your ass to make an accurate assessment of the product as it is proposed then, please, do the world a favor and just don't say anything because you just sound stupid.
Thank you, though, for proving my point about how the community is a factor preventing innovation in the industry. Congrats!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well, in a typical project, the alpha & beta test cycles should represent like 30%-ish of your schedule. Ideally, you'd like to have beta represent like 10% of your schedule only.
I bolded typical for multiple reasons. First, we're talking about Star Citizen which has more warts than the wicked old witch. Secondly, the climate is just so much different, in general. With early access and other early adoption programs, alpha and beta buy-in programs, etc. it just isn't typical at all in the games industry. So you could be right, it might not be until 2021, or it could be next year. Fuck, if we believe Destiny, your beta could last weeks, lol. Just such a shit show now that predicting anything beyond saying that an alpha should indicate it will release at some point in the future, would just be guesswork.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Does your 4 year old listen to the name Kal-El ?
Can he lift cars and see the contents of the fridge without opening the door ?
Does he occasionally turn back time by flying fast retrograde around your house ?
Have fun
Agreed! However, even those who have played the alpha and are vocal opponents of the project have said it's one of the most beautiful games ever made. That alone is innovation. As for the rest of the features go, who fucking knows. High-concept, poor execution. I don't think that all innovations will be in the game, but I believe that there will be innovations that they introduce into the final product (if not already in there). They might not be great, they might not be efficient, but there will likely be something(s).
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
MAGA
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey