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Expansion's never able to fit well

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Loke666 said:

    Agreed, if you don't get anything new what is the point?
    Sovrath said:
    I love leveling. I always welcome additional levels.

    I think this is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
    But you are just getting a few more HP for most of them anyways, so what is the point?

    With fewer levels each level actually would give you something new, you don't think it would be more fun if gaining a level actually meant something?

    I am not saying that leveling shouldtake shorter time (rather the opposite), just that they should mean something.

    If you just get something every 5th level you have tons of useless padding, at least I get far more a kick from gaining a new skill then just some more HP (of which I already have 20K).

    Most MMO players enjoy gaining power as they play, I do and you do. And you would still do that with lesser levels, the difference is that leveling would start to mean something again.

    You can certainly have a MMO with a thousand levels and having you level up every 10 minutes but for me that is just meaningless fluff, particularly since leveling is incredible easy today.
    The reward you feel is greater if there is fewer levels and 20 is a good number, have worked for D&D the last 50 years after all.
    Yeah but that's the point, we enjoy gaining levels that have meaning. In a pvp game that means more power. In a pve game that should be more power and perhaps alterations on current skills or adding skills.

    Not every game is Lord of the Rings online where they add a few levels that only get you more hit points and that is about it.
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  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,766
    Sovrath said:
    Loke666 said:

    Agreed, if you don't get anything new what is the point?
    Sovrath said:
    I love leveling. I always welcome additional levels.

    I think this is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
    But you are just getting a few more HP for most of them anyways, so what is the point?

    With fewer levels each level actually would give you something new, you don't think it would be more fun if gaining a level actually meant something?

    I am not saying that leveling shouldtake shorter time (rather the opposite), just that they should mean something.

    If you just get something every 5th level you have tons of useless padding, at least I get far more a kick from gaining a new skill then just some more HP (of which I already have 20K).

    Most MMO players enjoy gaining power as they play, I do and you do. And you would still do that with lesser levels, the difference is that leveling would start to mean something again.

    You can certainly have a MMO with a thousand levels and having you level up every 10 minutes but for me that is just meaningless fluff, particularly since leveling is incredible easy today.
    The reward you feel is greater if there is fewer levels and 20 is a good number, have worked for D&D the last 50 years after all.
    Yeah but that's the point, we enjoy gaining levels that have meaning. In a pvp game that means more power. In a pve game that should be more power and perhaps alterations on current skills or adding skills.

    Not every game is Lord of the Rings online where they add a few levels that only get you more hit points and that is about it.
    I love leveling if I feel the increase. But I can see where the falloff is for people who worked really hard for something. 

    Like in FFXI, when they increased the level cap from 75 up, and rendered gear almost useless that people spent months and even years farming to get. My friend who had played that game since launch quit a long with almost all of his Linkshells because they rendered all of it useless. 

    I haven't encountered a game other than LOTRO that leveling felt useless. Even in WoW where leveling is super quick now you can see a noticeable difference between level 1 and 15. 

    I remember spending weeks grinding out levels in L2 just because it felt great to finally achieve them, going from 65 to 66 when it took a week of grinding to get felt awesome. 
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    The problem is you equate an expansion as equivalent to the original game.  

    Classic WoW had far more development time than any expansion they put out.  They had to create the world. the lore, the races, everything.  Leveling and progress had fare more meaning because you were starting out at zero and a hell of a lot more thought went into the design.

    An expansion is really just a mod to the existing game.  It doesn't have nearly the depth that the original had and when you add new classes or races, it becomes clunky because you don't have a backstory in the original game to accommodate it.  Might as well be aliens from outer space in medieval England.  Then there's all the balancing problems because you nudge players towards the new races and classes because you want them to actually play the new content.  Doing so makes them more powerful than the races and classes that already existed, because if that weren't the case, you'd never leave your trusty gnome warrior.

    The more expansions that are added the clunkier it gets.

    WoW is an excellent example of all that clunkiness.  All the problems they have to deal with are astronomical compared to the original game.  That red shirt guy is forever pointing out their mistakes.

    Loke666
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah but that's the point, we enjoy gaining levels that have meaning. In a pvp game that means more power. In a pve game that should be more power and perhaps alterations on current skills or adding skills.

    Not every game is Lord of the Rings online where they add a few levels that only get you more hit points and that is about it.
    Almost every game I played at least have some pointless levels that only give you a few HP. Usually you get some kind of skill or upgrade every 5th level or so, the other 4 are therefore a huge waste of space. Yes, they ggive you some extra HP but they only divide the server more without giving the players anything (it is easier to team up a lvl 9 and lvl 10 char in DDO then a Lvl 52 and a lvl 57 in Wow).

    But the worst thing is that they make leveling so commonplace that you feel less achivement each time you hit a new level. When levels are rarer they both have more meaning and give out a better kick each time you level up.
    Sovrath
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    btdt said:
    The problem is you equate an expansion as equivalent to the original game.  

    Classic WoW had far more development time than any expansion they put out.  They had to create the world. the lore, the races, everything.  Leveling and progress had fare more meaning because you were starting out at zero and a hell of a lot more thought went into the design.

    An expansion is really just a mod to the existing game.  It doesn't have nearly the depth that the original had and when you add new classes or races, it becomes clunky because you don't have a backstory in the original game to accommodate it.  Might as well be aliens from outer space in medieval England.  Then there's all the balancing problems because you nudge players towards the new races and classes because you want them to actually play the new content.  Doing so makes them more powerful than the races and classes that already existed, because if that weren't the case, you'd never leave your trusty gnome warrior.

    The more expansions that are added the clunkier it gets.

    WoW is an excellent example of all that clunkiness.  All the problems they have to deal with are astronomical compared to the original game.  That red shirt guy is forever pointing out their mistakes.

    That is a good point, it is hardly the only problem with expansions but one of them. Also, we seen a few expansions like GW Factions and GW: Nightfall that didn't doo this and they were really good.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Sovrath said:
    Loke666 said:

    Agreed, if you don't get anything new what is the point?
    Sovrath said:
    I love leveling. I always welcome additional levels.

    I think this is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
    But you are just getting a few more HP for most of them anyways, so what is the point?

    With fewer levels each level actually would give you something new, you don't think it would be more fun if gaining a level actually meant something?

    I am not saying that leveling shouldtake shorter time (rather the opposite), just that they should mean something.

    If you just get something every 5th level you have tons of useless padding, at least I get far more a kick from gaining a new skill then just some more HP (of which I already have 20K).

    Most MMO players enjoy gaining power as they play, I do and you do. And you would still do that with lesser levels, the difference is that leveling would start to mean something again.

    You can certainly have a MMO with a thousand levels and having you level up every 10 minutes but for me that is just meaningless fluff, particularly since leveling is incredible easy today.
    The reward you feel is greater if there is fewer levels and 20 is a good number, have worked for D&D the last 50 years after all.
    Yeah but that's the point, we enjoy gaining levels that have meaning. In a pvp game that means more power. In a pve game that should be more power and perhaps alterations on current skills or adding skills.

    Not every game is Lord of the Rings online where they add a few levels that only get you more hit points and that is about it.
    I love leveling if I feel the increase. But I can see where the falloff is for people who worked really hard for something. 


    The problem here is that those players think that leveling is a one time thing and THEN you can rest and enjoy yourself. But these games are meant to include all sorts of progression "always". That is the game.

    I've never understood why some players complained at adding new levels but now I do. It's because they don't enjoy the leveling process and are just looking to get it over with.

    So in truth, they are playing the wrong types of games.

    I should add, I really enjoy how Black Desert does it where there is a soft cap. You can always level, but it just slows down immensely at a certain point.
    Panther2103
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,766
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Loke666 said:

    Agreed, if you don't get anything new what is the point?
    Sovrath said:
    I love leveling. I always welcome additional levels.

    I think this is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
    But you are just getting a few more HP for most of them anyways, so what is the point?

    With fewer levels each level actually would give you something new, you don't think it would be more fun if gaining a level actually meant something?

    I am not saying that leveling shouldtake shorter time (rather the opposite), just that they should mean something.

    If you just get something every 5th level you have tons of useless padding, at least I get far more a kick from gaining a new skill then just some more HP (of which I already have 20K).

    Most MMO players enjoy gaining power as they play, I do and you do. And you would still do that with lesser levels, the difference is that leveling would start to mean something again.

    You can certainly have a MMO with a thousand levels and having you level up every 10 minutes but for me that is just meaningless fluff, particularly since leveling is incredible easy today.
    The reward you feel is greater if there is fewer levels and 20 is a good number, have worked for D&D the last 50 years after all.
    Yeah but that's the point, we enjoy gaining levels that have meaning. In a pvp game that means more power. In a pve game that should be more power and perhaps alterations on current skills or adding skills.

    Not every game is Lord of the Rings online where they add a few levels that only get you more hit points and that is about it.
    I love leveling if I feel the increase. But I can see where the falloff is for people who worked really hard for something. 


    The problem here is that those players think that leveling is a one time thing and THEN you can rest and enjoy yourself. But these games are meant to include all sorts of progression "always". That is the game.

    I've never understood why some players complained at adding new levels but now I do. It's because they don't enjoy the leveling process and are just looking to get it over with.

    So in truth, they are playing the wrong types of games.

    I should add, I really enjoy how Black Desert does it where there is a soft cap. You can always level, but it just slows down immensely at a certain point.
    I think the problem comes when the alternative progression gets effected by the new level increase.

    There's always some form of progression, and if you look at it as basically invalidating older progressions, then the frustration makes sense. If the leveling takes X amount of time, and lets say the people didn't enjoy that and wanted to get it over with, but then the gear progression (the part the person wants to do) takes X times 10 amount of time. The devs then decide, hey lets add another 10 levels and make the gear progression pointless that you worked towards, then it instantly invalidates any of what you worked towards.

    I love BDO's level system. It feels like you are still progressing even though it's small, it adds to the grind a bit, you aren't just grinding to grind, you are also progressing in alternative paths.

    I also loved the way L2 used to be, where nobody was the cap, and they used to send out emails when someone hit certain levels and congratulate them. It felt like something hard to attain (even though I'm pretty sure the guy who was getting all of the level gates was botting hard). 
    Sovrath
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Phry said:
    Not sure why you consider it to be a problem that requires a solution? Expansions are mostly about adding new content/areas/classes, not many really add in an increase in terms of level caps and even then its just a side note than the real meat of the expansions. instead Expansions tend to be the solution to problems rather than one in themselves, they inject more content into a game that might be flagging, see GW2 and HoT for instance, it was desperately needed.
    As for that kind of thing not sitting well with anyone, why would you think that? i think most players are excited to have new content in their MMO's, and single player games too come to think of it, after all its not like expansions are limited to just the MMO genre. ;)

    In my observation from post here.
     
    People take their progress at end game seriously only to make it worthless by adding levels.

    It gets far far worst as this happens several times in the same game. 
    imho

    Expansions were never a problem, the concept of "End Game" is.
    deniter

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    edited February 2018
    The main problem seems to be new spells/abilities, increased health/mana/stamina, and more powerful items.  You hit a point where adding these things isn't needed.

    I agree with the concept of horizontal progression.  Don't have a large power gap between the low and high players.  Have items that need to be replaced due to item degradation.  New content could be just for exploring new areas.

    Ultima Online had a nice concept.  You could max a certain amount of skills and then others started to degrade.  It kind of made sense as the skills you don't use much would decline. 

    The other idea is to have something like AAs in EQ as your main system.  You have very small increases in power that never end.  This system can be exploited though.
  • SubilacSubilac Member UncommonPosts: 49
    edited February 2018
    I look back at Everquest. It was so hard to level originally. You had to find a group, and just grind, grind, grind. I played every single day, and think it took me 2 years for me to get my Shadow Knight to 50. There were hell levels every 5th level I believe. Getting through those levels took me weeks with daily play. Now, I can create a toon and get max level in 2 days. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    EQ's idea of AA's dies out VERY fast,most have those near max before they come close to end game only rising in small amounts after that.FFXI's was imo better suited to longevity.

    The problem is that devs are eliminating all previous content with each new expansion.New expansions are almost always NOT worth the cost,especially when you figure we are spending money to erase all our previous work and content.

    How about spending a lifetime in a game leveling up crafts,then you see the best items are on the cash shop?grind grind grind,when finally got that item i wanted,oh nice for 130 bucks i can buy the next expansion and get several better items right away with no effort.

    It has got so bad in the gaming genre now that seeing ANY new content is scary,it usually just means incoming cash shop to follow.Look at Star Citizen,bought your spanking new ship,WAIT ,we have 150 more for sale and soon you buy that one,we have more incoming and don't worry about EARNING any of that in game simply pull out your CC and buy it.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    The most important part i mentioned was "spending money on an expansion is like spending money to erase the entire rest of the game AND all your hard work".

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Subilac said:
    I look back at Everquest. It was so hard to level originally. You had to find a group, and just grind, grind, grind. I played every single day, and think it took me 2 years for me to get my Shadow Knight to 50. There were hell levels every 5th level I believe. Getting through those levels took me weeks with daily play. Now, I can create a toon and get max level in 2 days. 
    I remember this well.  I started playing at release and ended up switching between classes a lot to try them all out.  I soloed most of the time which made leveling difficult as it was easy to die in vanilla and the experience penalty was harsh.  I didn't make it to the level cap until PoP released and the cap moved up to level 60.  In such a slow moving game it is better if they never increase the level cap IMO.  I never found the expansions to be as fun as the original game.  It was actually great before the whole raiding mentality took over.  It was caused by a few people who were able to get to the level cap quickly and had nothing to do.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited February 2018
    Wizardry said:
    EQ's idea of AA's dies out VERY fast,most have those near max before they come close to end game only rising in small amounts after that.FFXI's was imo better suited to longevity.

    The problem is that devs are eliminating all previous content with each new expansion.New expansions are almost always NOT worth the cost,especially when you figure we are spending money to erase all our previous work and content.

    How about spending a lifetime in a game leveling up crafts,then you see the best items are on the cash shop?grind grind grind,when finally got that item i wanted,oh nice for 130 bucks i can buy the next expansion and get several better items right away with no effort.

    It has got so bad in the gaming genre now that seeing ANY new content is scary,it usually just means incoming cash shop to follow.Look at Star Citizen,bought your spanking new ship,WAIT ,we have 150 more for sale and soon you buy that one,we have more incoming and don't worry about EARNING any of that in game simply pull out your CC and buy it.


    What makes this part so sad is that the content doesn't even last the entire expansion before its pretty much obsolete. FFXIV and WoW master this since almost every 6 month the previous stuff is void other than for vanity. So pretty much you pay to get past the patch gates lol not even for an "expansion" anymore. Only the latest patch (and often time only the raid in the previous patch) are the relevant things in an expansion anymore. Its pretty sad how things have become. Back in the FFXI days, everyone was given something in an expansion, not just "new endgame" or whatever. I think I mentioned this before, but at least GW2 and ESO try to have expansions that resemble the old days of expanding the world for almost everyone or at least incorporating old content into the new. Archeage too in a sense (even though its completely p2w). I mean honestly if Archeage didn't have persistent systems while adding new content, whales would quit and tank the game, so there's kind of a positive. You could argue Blade and Soul too since you're not running content to necessarily get gear but to get stuff to upgrade your persistent gear.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Flyte27 said:
    The main problem seems to be new spells/abilities, increased health/mana/stamina, and more powerful items.  You hit a point where adding these things isn't needed.

    I agree with the concept of horizontal progression.  Don't have a large power gap between the low and high players.  Have items that need to be replaced due to item degradation.  New content could be just for exploring new areas.

    Ultima Online had a nice concept.  You could max a certain amount of skills and then others started to degrade.  It kind of made sense as the skills you don't use much would decline. 

    The other idea is to have something like AAs in EQ as your main system.  You have very small increases in power that never end.  This system can be exploited though.
    The big difference between AAs and levels in most MMOs is just that you pick the upgrade for AAs (and that you can't grind them the same way you grind XP) while levels give you a static upgrade for your class each time you level up.

    The small increase in power is about the games powergap and games with levels can have small or large powergaps just as you could if you replaced levels with AAs.

    I don't want horizontal progression (at least not from the start) myself, but I would prefer a far lower powergap then the standard MMO. Of course having vertical progression for the main game and then horizontal progression for the expansions work just fine and do solves the problem, some MMOs do it already.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,823
    edited February 2018
    One possibility is to have progression by career. You could do that in three ways:

    1. No one starts the game being able to craft anything. You get to top level and then you can start you first crafting career. Crafting itself gives no xp to levelling your crafting, you need to be killing mobs, doing repeatable quests etc. Finished that? Its on to crafting career number two.

    2. The MMO has secondary classes, you start levelling your secondary class once you get to top level. These secondary classes could resemble main classes, but if they are too similar issues will occur.

    3. Each "career" could have a variety of main classes. So "Warrrior" could have a Tank, a DPS and a Ranged. You start with a say the DPS, get that to top level then you can level say the Tank. You can see the issue there, most would want to start with the DPS. But that's a problem in many MMOs, tanks are not hugely popular.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Scot said:
    One possibility is to have progression by career. You could do that in three ways:

    1. No one starts the game being able to craft anything. You get to top level and then you can start you first crafting career. Crafting itself gives no xp to levelling your crafting, you need to be killing mobs, doing repeatable quests etc. Finished that? Its on to crafting career number two.

    2. The MMO has secondary classes, you start levelling your secondary class once you get to top level. These secondary classes could resemble main classes, but if they are too similar issues will occur.

    3. Each "career" could have a variety of main classes. So "Warrrior" could have a Tank, a DPS and a Ranged. You start with a say the DPS, get that to top level then you can level say the Tank. You can see the issue there, most would want to start with the DPS. But that's a problem in many MMOs, tanks are not hugely popular.
    Warhammer fantasy roleplaying have something a bit similar. You start out as a rather pathetic class (rat catcher, fisherman, outlaw, tomb robber and so on) but can change careers once you maxed one out. You gain new skills and a bit of other upgrades (woulds, stats and so on) but those are capped, if you already got +3 wounds you need a career with +4 to be able to raise it another point.

    It works rather well there at least and probably would for a MMO as well, the progression becomes more and more horizontal the more you have played and a veteran character can have many options open for them but once you hit a certain point there will be far between real upgrades and the powergap between a character with 3 careers and one with 10 is usually small.

    Of course it is a pen and paper RPG but the mechanics would work for a MMO as well as long as people can live with the rather deadlier combat then what we are used to in games like Wow. You just don't get that many HPs even if you become far deadlier so being ambushed by weak opponents is dangerous.
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Guild Wars 2 got it right...

    I didn't like the content in HoT but the expansion fit into the game perfectly without ruining any progress everyone had already made. It didn't make older content redundant either.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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