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State of the Studio

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...

    “The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”

    And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them.  You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time.  THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff".  THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.





    And yet again you completely miss the point.  The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.

    Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation.  It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands.  If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
    Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts,  particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."

    As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff  as it was on "order' and not a donation. 


    See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase.  Not donation. 
    Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.

    See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.

    If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.

    Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.

    But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
    No.  The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted.  The company referring to it as a purchase is important.  As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance".  IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates.  If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days.  If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given.  Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise. 

    Edit:  Also, remember the estimated delivery date.  Was it misleading?  If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question.  When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended.  Now 18 months turns to 42 or so.  Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.


    Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund.  If you are... speak up!  If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks.  Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.  


    Do you work? 

    This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
    It's quite obvious where you're going with this, and it's been tried before.  To counter:

    Name me one MMORPG project in the world that was completed in two years.  Name me one that went from inception to a full-featured beta test in two years, even.  Don't worry; I'll wait.
    Star Trek Online is one of the fastest.  First announced by Cryptic in July 2008, it launched in Feb 2010, in a little under 2 years.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online

    Wait, there's more, Cryptic announced Champions Online in Feb 2008, and launched it in Sep, 2009.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_Online

    Not done yet,  Wild West Online came out of no where in May of 2017, with a promised delivery date of end of 2017.

    They've missed their dates so far of course, (but who doesn't?) though there's been a few alpha rounds, and their delivery roadmap shows Spring 2018 for Steam launch, whatever that really means these days.

    https://trello.com/b/ACzLFTo5/wild-west-online-development-roadmap
    Stands to reason with so much historical evidence of MMOs taking longer to build than many studios anticipated, SBS would've taken that into account when stating their KS delivery date. Especially with Caspians background working at Microsoft doing engineering. 

    It was even even brought up during the KS about whether they could hit the deadline, and Caspian said  not to worry they have been developing the Soulbound engine for over 10 years and they had a secret solution they were about to announce that would put all skepticism to bed. 

    Then before the KS ended, they announced the SpatialOS partnership, and said that was their secret solution to building the MMO during their stated timeline. 

    So @Kyleran you're right, they have no excuse. They shouldn't have ever promised a date they couldn't deliver. 
    JamesGoblinGdemami
    --------------------------------------------
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Stands to reason with so much historical evidence of MMOs taking longer to build than many studios anticipated, SBS would've taken that into account when stating their KS delivery date. Especially with Caspians background working at Microsoft doing engineering. 

    It was even even brought up during the KS about whether they could hit the deadline, and Caspian said  not to worry they have been developing the Soulbound engine for over 10 years and they had a secret solution they were about to announce that would put all skepticism to bed. 

    Then before the KS ended, they announced the SpatialOS partnership, and said that was their secret solution to building the MMO during their stated timeline. 

    So @Kyleran you're right, they have no excuse. They shouldn't have ever promised a date they couldn't deliver. 
    I recently looked at my list of backed MMORPGs on Kickstarter (Star Citizen, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Novus AEterno, The Repopulation) and saw that none of them even came close to meeting their promised date, with the last being Crowfall in Dec '16. With that precedence, who would promise to deliver their game on Kickstarter in a timeline so much further away than predecessors have done? It may not be the right thing to do but it's more a case of it being the thing everyone does than just SBS' fault.
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,378
    Kyleran said:
    I find it weird, that out of dozens of games that have missed their kickstarter dates, and the millions of people who have backed these games, many with no refund policy...

    And you can't find me one example of a lawsuit that has been successful because of missing the kickstarter date.
    I think if you look at the Star Citizen stuff you may find relevant info
    Unfortunately the recent lawsuit by Crytek against Roberts Industries sort of buries any other searches about lawsuits against this game.

    I did find one story about someone involving the LA County Attorney General and maybe the FTC.

    No actual lawsuit was filed, and the dispute centered around the old TOS vs the new one which the Attorney General focused in on.

    While R.I. did give the person their money back, they never acknowledged the claim as legitimate and basically paid it to shut him up and make him go away.  But again, not decided in court.

    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/14/star-citizen-refund/

    Derrik Smart got a refund of his pledge for similar reasons, they just removed some of his ammunition in his never ending crusade against SC.

    And you think we're fanatics here? Not even close. 

    ;)

    And your thoughts about the wording used? Purchase VS donation. The fact that they have “sales”?  

    Here is a recent post by SBS which discusses purchasing items.  It’s not unique.

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/23094/tis-the-season-for-gifting#post257273

    Here are some excerpts:
    you now have the ability to purchase some items from our online store 
    Additionally, various other items donning a red ribbon are also able to be bought as gifts and sent to others
    These items are able to be purchased as a gift starting on December 21st.

    So back to the example you provided and the Judges response about the wording...Doesn’t this fit the same scenario?



    And to the Slapshot groupies (whom I truly love. I couldn’t do this without you all) I provided my exact experience and profession on this site in at least one post.  Happy hunting!

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    Kyleran said:
    I find it weird, that out of dozens of games that have missed their kickstarter dates, and the millions of people who have backed these games, many with no refund policy...

    And you can't find me one example of a lawsuit that has been successful because of missing the kickstarter date.
    I think if you look at the Star Citizen stuff you may find relevant info
    Unfortunately the recent lawsuit by Crytek against Roberts Industries sort of buries any other searches about lawsuits against this game.

    I did find one story about someone involving the LA County Attorney General and maybe the FTC.

    No actual lawsuit was filed, and the dispute centered around the old TOS vs the new one which the Attorney General focused in on.

    While R.I. did give the person their money back, they never acknowledged the claim as legitimate and basically paid it to shut him up and make him go away.  But again, not decided in court.

    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/14/star-citizen-refund/

    Derrik Smart got a refund of his pledge for similar reasons, they just removed some of his ammunition in his never ending crusade against SC.

    And you think we're fanatics here? Not even close. 

    ;)

    And your thoughts about the wording used? Purchase VS donation. The fact that they have “sales”?  

    Here is a recent post by SBS which discusses purchasing items.  It’s not unique.

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/23094/tis-the-season-for-gifting#post257273

    Here are some excerpts:
    you now have the ability to purchase some items from our online store 
    Additionally, various other items donning a red ribbon are also able to be bought as gifts and sent to others
    These items are able to be purchased as a gift starting on December 21st.

    So back to the example you provided and the Judges response about the wording...Doesn’t this fit the same scenario?



    And to the Slapshot groupies (whom I truly love. I couldn’t do this without you all) I provided my exact experience and profession on this site in at least one post.  Happy hunting!

    Not sure, you are purchasing a "pledge package". So maybe there is grounds for a lawsuit there, but maybe not.  But they also have something in their ToS that kickstarter/indiegogo doesn't.

    Any funds so raised shall be earned by Soulbound Studios and are non-refundable. Such funds shall be applied to the direct provision of any Purchase made and/or to the cost of provision of the Services. Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services. However, you acknowledge and agree such delivery date is not a firm promise and may be extended by Soulbound Studios. Any portion of funds raised for the provision of the Services shall be non-refundable, unless such funds shall be deemed refundable under terms of services of the third party service through which those funds for the provision of Services were procured and in effect at the time of provision of those funds. In consideration of Soulbound Studios’ use of best efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Services utilizing, in part or in whole, the funds raised for the provision of Services, you agree any amounts raised shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not Soulbound Studios actually delivers the Services. In consideration for the promises by Soulbound Studios, you agree you shall irrevocable waive any claim for refund of any such funds.

    So I guess maybe?  I don't claim to be a lawyer.  So maybe purchasing a pledge make them liable, but maybe not?  Maybe this ToS completely absolves them? Or maybe it's horse shit. One of the things the judge says is...

    That document is important in my view for this reason: it says 'this order'. Not 'this pledge' but 'this order' has been successfully added to your campaign. That would appear to be something that was probably in my view provided by Indiegogo but there’s no clarification of that. It makes it clear, 'this is an order'. This was successfully added to your campaign. This is the information that was provided to the claimant at the time.

    So maybe the fact that CoE clarifies what a purchase is in their ToS it absolves them, unlike Spectrum Vega where the word order was used on their indiegogo with no TOS absolving them?

    Again if someone feels like they want a refund, I suggest them sending their complaint to the FTC who will decide where to go from there.  But I'm betting that the lawyers that drew up the CoE ToS knew what they were doing.
  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    ANyways, I'm good on this conversation.  A full 24 hours talking about the legitimacy of kickstarter is enough for a lifetime lol.
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    I don't know why you keep referencing the current ToS on the CoE website and saying that would absolve them of their responsibilities to KS backers.

    That WASN'T their ToS during the Kickstarter. 
    Gdemami
    --------------------------------------------
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    When I joined.. you all accused me of being someone else..so that is all on you.. you and your fellow harbinger are not, or were you ever the victims in this exchange.. 

    Stop lying already.
    That wasn't them - that was me.
    ME ME ME ME ME! Get it in your head!
    That is why I said "You and your fellow harbingers" unless now you are denying that you are a Harbinger?
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,744
    edited February 2018
    Ungood said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    When I joined.. you all accused me of being someone else..so that is all on you.. you and your fellow harbinger are not, or were you ever the victims in this exchange.. 

    Stop lying already.
    That wasn't them - that was me.
    ME ME ME ME ME! Get it in your head!
    That is why I said "You and your fellow harbingers" unless now you are denying that you are a Harbinger?
    You said "you all accused me"
    No one did but I.
    Kyleran
    Harbinger of Fools
  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    edited February 2018
    I don't know why you keep referencing the current ToS on the CoE website and saying that would absolve them of their responsibilities to KS backers.

    That WASN'T their ToS during the Kickstarter. 
    The term purchase we are referring to, is literally a screenshot of the CoE website lol.

    ANd I don't know man.  You are purchasing a pledge.  Don't know how a judge is going to determine that.

    Again anyone who wants there money back, and feels they have a legal claim to that money, I suggest sending a letter to the FTC.  I'm personally tired of this conversation.  It's gone on for a full day that's enough.  
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    In any case, I'll just say my point here:
    That is only a small part of the problem.

    Even if you knew all that information, it would be still meaningless since you lack any proficiency to judge what such information entails.

    No one in their right mind who has an experience or even just understanding of running a company or running projects would make assumptions under such cirmustances - it goes very much against what those jobs take.

    So yeah, that question was indeed unnecessary.
    Not really.

    For those of us that work in Project Planning and Project Management, It would give us insight into where JW was coming from. If say, we knew that he thought that he was stating from a much further along time line, (maybe due to work he had already done on his own for example) that would allow us to understand why he gave such a time frame and not simply an issue of being vastly clueless.

    To those that don't work in those fields.. yah. all these words... pointless.
    KyleranStaalBurgher
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,378


    Again if someone feels like they want a refund, I suggest them sending their complaint to the FTC who will decide where to go from there.  
    I agree. I think this circular theoretical discussion has run it's course.
    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    When I joined.. you all accused me of being someone else..so that is all on you.. you and your fellow harbinger are not, or were you ever the victims in this exchange.. 

    Stop lying already.
    That wasn't them - that was me.
    ME ME ME ME ME! Get it in your head!
    That is why I said "You and your fellow harbingers" unless now you are denying that you are a Harbinger?
    You said "you all accused me"
    No one did but I.
    When you are part of a group.. you rep the group, and everyone else in it rises and falls by your shitty actions.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,378
    ANyways, I'm good on this conversation.  A full 24 hours talking about the legitimacy of kickstarter is enough for a lifetime lol.
    Don't worry.  If you stick around we will have this discussion again in a few weeks or months.

    YashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,744
    Ungood said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ungood said:
    When I joined.. you all accused me of being someone else..so that is all on you.. you and your fellow harbinger are not, or were you ever the victims in this exchange.. 

    Stop lying already.
    That wasn't them - that was me.
    ME ME ME ME ME! Get it in your head!
    That is why I said "You and your fellow harbingers" unless now you are denying that you are a Harbinger?
    You said "you all accused me"
    No one did but I.
    When you are part of a group.. you rep the group, and everyone else in it rises and falls by your shitty actions.

    You mean like you being an awesome representative for the CoE community?

    Either way your interpretation of "you all" makes no sense.
    Another lie like most of the things you say.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    AshyLarry24 said:
    Again anyone who wants there money back, and feels they have a legal claim to that money, I suggest sending a letter to the FTC.  I'm personally tired of this conversation.  It's gone on for a full day that's enough.  
     I second this.

    However, a great idea would be for them to take a list of everyone that wants a refund, an when they get a backer they give back those refunds and make those limited time pledge packages open to the public again.
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    cjmarshJamesGoblinGdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,936
    Realizer said:
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    Ever think maybe they are still working on that? they just started the change over a little bit ago, it's not like they dumped the OS system 2 years ago, iirc it was like 2 months ago.

    Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I am in the middle of a project, nothing pisses me off more then some nosy shit who wants to know every little detail.

    But that is me.

    Maybe some people like that kind of attention.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,378
    Realizer said:
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    I think the problem is that they have gone backwards.  

    They started with the sword fight demo based on the Princess Bride
    They followed that up with the demo of the mine exploration
    Then they kind of started going off the rails with the "jousting" demo. A mini-game not part of the core promise.
    Now they show screenshots of a voxel based minecraft like client:
     

    People like to see progression.  The problem IMHO is that those first sword fight demos and mine exploration and even the Jousting one are just fluff with no foundation.  I think they were stand alone demos, not demonstrating the actual game but more like concept art.   Now it seems they are saying "We are actually going to start work on the real game so join us in this MUD".

    People saw the earlier demos, thought they were representations of real progress and bought in.  Now the above, recently revealed screenshot shows how little was done before and how far they still have to go.

    Again- they only hired their lead designer in Oct 2017.  That should tell you all you need to know.


    JamesGoblinGdemamiYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    ANyways, I'm good on this conversation.  A full 24 hours talking about the legitimacy of kickstarter is enough for a lifetime lol.
    Don't worry.  If you stick around we will have this discussion again in a few weeks or months.

    I'm sure that's why you were immediately tired of it lol.
    Slapshot1188
  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    edited February 2018
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    The irony of you calling out a strawman while you use a strawman is ridiculous.
    StaalBurgher
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Realizer said:
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    I think the problem is that they have gone backwards.  

    They started with the sword fight demo based on the Princess Bride
    They followed that up with the demo of the mine exploration
    Then they kind of started going off the rails with the "jousting" demo. A mini-game not part of the core promise.
    Now they show screenshots of a voxel based minecraft like client:
     

    People like to see progression.  The problem IMHO is that those first sword fight demos and mine exploration and even the Jousting one are just fluff with no foundation.  I think they were stand alone demos, not demonstrating the actual game but more like concept art.   Now it seems they are saying "We are actually going to start work on the real game so join us in this MUD".

    People saw the earlier demos, thought they were representations of real progress and bought in.  Now the above, recently revealed screenshot shows how little was done before and how far they still have to go.

    Again- they only hired their lead designer in Oct 2017.  That should tell you all you need to know.


    What they need to do is figure out who they're developing for. Either go full on Star Citizen and sell the Elyria equivalent of spaceship porn until they're swimming in money and it doesn't matter how far past their deadlines they get, or work on technical demos that will impress investors. A voxel client designed to re-implement most assets in the game and to fulfill a kickstarter promise just for testing a now non-existent back end does not look appealing. SBS needs to buckle down and determine who they want to appeal to, because backers and investors have very different wants and needs.
    Slapshot1188AshyLarry24KyleranJamesGoblinGdemamiStaalBurgher
  • AshyLarry24AshyLarry24 Member UncommonPosts: 208
    I totally agree that they need to be showing big leaps this year in development.  By their own admission they should be moving toward an alpha on UE4, by the end of this year.

    I don't think the Vox is a bad sign, I think it's quite the opposite.  I can see why it looks like a step back, but this is always been part of the plan.  Build/test things on Vox Elyria, an then transfer these things to the Alpha on UE4.

    If we don't hear at least an Alpha date by the end of this year, that's a problem.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,911
    cjmarsh said:
    Realizer said:
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    I think the problem is that they have gone backwards.  

    They started with the sword fight demo based on the Princess Bride
    They followed that up with the demo of the mine exploration
    Then they kind of started going off the rails with the "jousting" demo. A mini-game not part of the core promise.
    Now they show screenshots of a voxel based minecraft like client:
     

    People like to see progression.  The problem IMHO is that those first sword fight demos and mine exploration and even the Jousting one are just fluff with no foundation.  I think they were stand alone demos, not demonstrating the actual game but more like concept art.   Now it seems they are saying "We are actually going to start work on the real game so join us in this MUD".

    People saw the earlier demos, thought they were representations of real progress and bought in.  Now the above, recently revealed screenshot shows how little was done before and how far they still have to go.

    Again- they only hired their lead designer in Oct 2017.  That should tell you all you need to know.


    What they need to do is figure out who they're developing for. Either go full on Star Citizen and sell the Elyria equivalent of spaceship porn until they're swimming in money and it doesn't matter how far past their deadlines they get, or work on technical demos that will impress investors. A voxel client designed to re-implement most assets in the game and to fulfill a kickstarter promise just for testing a now non-existent back end does not look appealing. SBS needs to buckle down and determine who they want to appeal to, because backers and investors have very different wants and needs.
    That's what I keep saying,  go full monty on the cash shop sales, especially post launch and investors will be far more interested.


    Slapshot1188JamesGoblinGdemamiUngood

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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