Also, the TOS as reflected today is NOT what it was previously... this was proven by Wellspring despite other poster's claims that it never changed.
who claimed it never changed?
lol, you're joking right?
nope - am dead serious
in my comments i mentioned that it was changed sometime around mid 2016 (turns out it was oct) for what i believed were comments pertaining to conduct - so i never said it never changed - in fact i pointed out that it had changed
now, i was wrong in the content that was changed, and i think it's great you were able to provide a copy of what was the ToS during KS
I made the comment that the ToS i showed was what was in place when i pledged, and that is in fact the case
here is the screenshot of when i made my first donation:
what is actually interesting in looking at this, is that SBS labels it a purchase rather than a donation - though at this time the newer ToS was in effect anyhows
so my apologies on my error, and ty to you for clearing it up
thus the ToS i posted was in effect for everybody that donated after the Kickstarter, or approximately $2.5 million of the donations
the other $1.3 million of donations were under the ToS Wellspring posted
i'm not going to get into the legalese of it all - i'll defer to those of you that seem to be lawyers to sort that one out
Frankly I care not at all whether their missed deadlines and dropping of SpatialOS are against their TOS or not. All I want is to see them going in the right direction to actually finish their game. Hiring a lawyer to worry about this stuff would really not help when they have so many other problems in their way. Like not being able to decide whether to focus on catering to their current and future backers or to corporate investors.
As for the government watchdogs, having just got back from the California DMV, I have zero confidence in their ability to do anything remotely useful.
This is the guy who thinks getting a refund against SBS has no merit, ignoring the fact many people have already gotten their money back.
I love how clowns feel empowered by blatantly denying logic and throwing intellect to the side. Your a great example of one of the reasons why I strongly believe the uneducated and lower classes will always be subservient for life.
This is the guy who thinks getting a refund against SBS has no merit, ignoring the fact many people have already gotten their money back.
I love how clowns feel empowered by blatantly denying logic and throwing intellect to the side. Your a great example of one of the reasons why I strongly believe the uneducated and lower classes will always be subservient for life.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product and to update you on the product's situation. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
Since @Slapshot1188 already covered it so well I don’t really need to respond except to just comment on how very wrong you are in your first point
For one, you are not purchasing, you are donating.
And two, it is up to the consumer to do their research, if it says no refund and you aren't comfortable with that, don't pledge.
Seems easy enough to understand to me.
There’s hardly ever a case where you can’t refund something. You can yell about it as much as you want but that doesn’t make it true.
As an example I can go and order something online with a delivery date of 1 week. If it’s been 4 weeks since the end of the delivery date then I can go and request a refund and unless the business wants to face the wrong end of the consumer protection act they will comply.
There’s hardly ever a case where you can’t refund something.
....and your claim is based on your consumer self-entitlement or some actual knowledge of the law?
ie. leaving off-premise purchases aside, the seller has 30 days to deliver you the goods and even then, you are not guaranteed a refund. That is an actual consumer protection law in EU.
There’s hardly ever a case where you can’t refund something.
....and your claim is based on your consumer self-entitlement or some actual knowledge of the law?
ie. leaving off-premise purchases aside, the seller has 30 days to deliver you the goods and even then, you are not guaranteed a refund. That is an actual consumer protection law in EU.
In Kefo's example situation, the seller would have 1 week to deliver the goods. Delivery date is something you're allowed to agree about.
But yes, there's a default rule that if you don't agree anything about when the delivery is to be made then the seller has to make it within 30 days.
And about the refund: Based on law you're allowed to get refund if a) You give the seller a reasonable extra time and he still hasn't delivered the product, or immediately should the seller refuse to deliver within that reasonable extra time, or b) Getting the goods on delivery date is important, and that importance is either apparent from the agreement and the situation in which agreement was made, or the seller was informed of the importance prior making to agreement
For example the a) and b) would mean that if you order a wedding cake and it's late, you're allowed to cancel the order immediately because from the nature of the product and agreement it was clearly important that the cake is delivered on a certain date. But if you order a DVD from internet and are promised 5 days delivery and it's late, you'll first have to message them and give them a couple of extra days.
If you order Chronicles of Elyria and the maker announces that it's going to be about 2 years late, you can request refund because it's late and the developer has announced it will not be delivered within reasonable extra time.
This is based on consumer protection law in Finland. The laws do vary a bit from one EU country to another.
There’s hardly ever a case where you can’t refund something.
....and your claim is based on your consumer self-entitlement or some actual knowledge of the law?
ie. leaving off-premise purchases aside, the seller has 30 days to deliver you the goods and even then, you are not guaranteed a refund. That is an actual consumer protection law in EU.
Maybe take your own advice about yelling....
lol consumer self entitlement. You mean you let business bend you over and you do it with a smile? Sorry but if I'm promised something and they fail to deliver or change the product I will get my refund since they have failed to live up to their end of the bargain and that's not consumer entitlement.
And yes this is based on some actual knowledge of the law and not me just running my mouth.
You aren't ordering a game when you back something through crowdfunding. No product exists yet at all, only the idea that one will get developed if enough people support it. All the perks and final bonuses from the packages are nothing more than incentives. I don't understand people who back crowdfunding campaigns and then try to get refunds, what's the point? If you're of the opinion your investment failed and is beyond salvaging then move on. You can't go to a company and request a refund after the stock you invested in tanks.
You mean you let business bend you over and you do it with a smile?
No, I mean you letting your ignorance and self-entitlement to run your mouth...
So instead of responding to the entire post you just cherry pick this part which tells me you know I’m right and you have no argument for it so you fall back to ignorant statements.
Have fun being told by business what you can and can’t do even if what they say is in direct violation of your rights.
You aren't ordering a game when you back something through crowdfunding. No product exists yet at all, only the idea that one will get developed if enough people support it. All the perks and final bonuses from the packages are nothing more than incentives. I don't understand people who back crowdfunding campaigns and then try to get refunds, what's the point? If you're of the opinion your investment failed and is beyond salvaging then move on. You can't go to a company and request a refund after the stock you invested in tanks.
And with crowdfunding if you fail to deliver then you need to either give refunds, start posting your books online to show backers you spent the money wisely or come up with a plan on how you are going to deliver something that is close to what you promised all those people that gave you money.
You aren't ordering a game when you back something through crowdfunding. No product exists yet at all, only the idea that one will get developed if enough people support it. All the perks and final bonuses from the packages are nothing more than incentives. I don't understand people who back crowdfunding campaigns and then try to get refunds, what's the point? If you're of the opinion your investment failed and is beyond salvaging then move on. You can't go to a company and request a refund after the stock you invested in tanks.
And with crowdfunding if you fail to deliver then you need to either give refunds, start posting your books online to show backers you spent the money wisely or come up with a plan on how you are going to deliver something that is close to what you promised all those people that gave you money.
You know, I spent some time looking for laws regard refunds, and in almost every case they are focused mostly on traditional delivery models of physical products.
Here in the States businesses are allowed to set no refund policies, and must clearly inform the consumer but again, always centered around premise some sort of goods or services were actually delivered.
I could find almost nothing regarding refunds of "deposits" which is the actual term used by Soulbound's TOS to describe pre-launch purchases.
I suspect few governing agencies have really caught up and adjusted their consumer protection laws regarding refunds to specifically cover the unique situation around crowd funding.
It's possible crowd funding falls under the category of "contracts" and many states in the US specifically mention their refund "laws' do not apply in a contract situation.
Clearly this leaves plenty of opportunity for courts (in the State of Washington btw, TOS covers which one disputes are to be settled in) to opine assuming someone wishes to spend the time and money to take an issue like this before one.
Likely most companies aren't willing to pay to defend either so they take the strategy of mislead, delay, or ignore for as long as possible, and truly only react to the most stubborn subset of customers who won't let it go.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product and to update you on the product's situation. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
Since @Slapshot1188 already covered it so well I don’t really need to respond except to just comment on how very wrong you are in your first point
If you can find me just one successful lawsuit against a kickstarter company, that didn't involve that company being purposely deceptive, and/or using the kickstarter money for their own personal needs, then I'll believe you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Yeah you're right, I just straight up disagree, let's move on
- For one, you are not purchasing, you are donating.
- And two, it is up to the consumer to do their research, if it says no refund and you aren't comfortable with that, don't pledge.
Seems easy enough to understand to me.in my comments i mentioned that it was changed sometime around mid 2016 (turns out it was oct) for what i believed were comments pertaining to conduct - so i never said it never changed - in fact i pointed out that it had changed
now, i was wrong in the content that was changed, and i think it's great you were able to provide a copy of what was the ToS during KS
I made the comment that the ToS i showed was what was in place when i pledged, and that is in fact the case
here is the screenshot of when i made my first donation:
what is actually interesting in looking at this, is that SBS labels it a purchase rather than a donation - though at this time the newer ToS was in effect anyhows
so my apologies on my error, and ty to you for clearing it up
thus the ToS i posted was in effect for everybody that donated after the Kickstarter, or approximately $2.5 million of the donations
the other $1.3 million of donations were under the ToS Wellspring posted
i'm not going to get into the legalese of it all - i'll defer to those of you that seem to be lawyers to sort that one out
As for the government watchdogs, having just got back from the California DMV, I have zero confidence in their ability to do anything remotely useful.
This is the guy who thinks getting a refund against SBS has no merit, ignoring the fact many people have already gotten their money back.
I love how clowns feel empowered by blatantly denying logic and throwing intellect to the side. Your a great example of one of the reasons why I strongly believe the uneducated and lower classes will always be subservient for life.
Good laugh, Ashy Larry.
There’s hardly ever a case where you can’t refund something. You can yell about it as much as you want but that doesn’t make it true.
As an example I can go and order something online with a delivery date of 1 week. If it’s been 4 weeks since the end of the delivery date then I can go and request a refund and unless the business wants to face the wrong end of the consumer protection act they will comply.
ie. leaving off-premise purchases aside, the seller has 30 days to deliver you the goods and even then, you are not guaranteed a refund. That is an actual consumer protection law in EU.
Maybe take your own advice about yelling....
But yes, there's a default rule that if you don't agree anything about when the delivery is to be made then the seller has to make it within 30 days.
And about the refund: Based on law you're allowed to get refund if
a) You give the seller a reasonable extra time and he still hasn't delivered the product, or immediately should the seller refuse to deliver within that reasonable extra time, or
b) Getting the goods on delivery date is important, and that importance is either apparent from the agreement and the situation in which agreement was made, or the seller was informed of the importance prior making to agreement
For example the a) and b) would mean that if you order a wedding cake and it's late, you're allowed to cancel the order immediately because from the nature of the product and agreement it was clearly important that the cake is delivered on a certain date. But if you order a DVD from internet and are promised 5 days delivery and it's late, you'll first have to message them and give them a couple of extra days.
If you order Chronicles of Elyria and the maker announces that it's going to be about 2 years late, you can request refund because it's late and the developer has announced it will not be delivered within reasonable extra time.
This is based on consumer protection law in Finland. The laws do vary a bit from one EU country to another.
And yes this is based on some actual knowledge of the law and not me just running my mouth.
Have fun being told by business what you can and can’t do even if what they say is in direct violation of your rights.
Here in the States businesses are allowed to set no refund policies, and must clearly inform the consumer but again, always centered around premise some sort of goods or services were actually delivered.
I could find almost nothing regarding refunds of "deposits" which is the actual term used by Soulbound's TOS to describe pre-launch purchases.
I suspect few governing agencies have really caught up and adjusted their consumer protection laws regarding refunds to specifically cover the unique situation around crowd funding.
It's possible crowd funding falls under the category of "contracts" and many states in the US specifically mention their refund "laws' do not apply in a contract situation.
Clearly this leaves plenty of opportunity for courts (in the State of Washington btw, TOS covers which one disputes are to be settled in) to opine assuming someone wishes to spend the time and money to take an issue like this before one.
Likely most companies aren't willing to pay to defend either so they take the strategy of mislead, delay, or ignore for as long as possible, and truly only react to the most stubborn subset of customers who won't let it go.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No....its not Robert's Industries.....its Tesla collection of "deposits" for the Model 3 and other I think.
$198M in the initial flurry, and as of last summer they were holding $616M in deposits.
But they do offer refunds....but drag their heals at times apparently.
https://www.dailybreeze.com/2016/04/01/198000-customers-plunk-down-1000-deposits-for-tesla-model-3-electric-car/
https://www.wired.com/story/canceling-your-model-3-deposit-dont-count-on-a-timely-refund/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon