@ashylarry Why would he say in Oct that SpatialOS was doing everything they needed?
And again, I had my doubts about SpatialOS. Especially for the first wave of games using it. It’s gojng to take time. That said, they have funding and manpower an order of magnitude (or more) greater than SBS plus years of development behind it.
Nobody is questioning whether some of the programs Caspien listed are capable programs, but they need to work seemlessly together. THAT was the magic of SpatialOS. So we are being asked to believe that the same folks who told us in Oct that SpatialOS was great... managed to recreate the special sauce that got Improbable half a billion dollars in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of the manpower for a fraction of the cost. What’s the rule of development? Speed, Cost, Quality... pick 2. He hit home runs in all 3 categories while we know he’s struggled on at least 2 of those across his whole project? Seems highly unlikely.
Remember... his own words were shown in my earlier post. SpatialOS was 5he answer to all the questions...
Again, I’d they DID do that they should focus on that as their product, then after makiing hundreds of millions of dollars.. come back and make the dream game a reality.
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Oh trust me man I was right on top of that shit right when that announcement was made. That's why a bunch of people were bitching at me. I used all the quotes you know and this is what I was told, and I was told by others it wouldn't be a problem and in fact it should work better than Spatial. There is suppose to be a guy in the field who is gonna be in a video explaining everything in the next few weeks (not an SBS employee, but a guy who works in this field).
Again maybe you're completely right, and what they're claiming isn't possible for a team of 19 people. But I think neither you nor I are experts in this I'm guessing. Right? So I mean if someone is on the level to explain this stuff, and why it's not possible or isn't feasible I'm all ears. But for now I'm trusting, but skeptical.
@AshyLarry24 That's some interesting insight to Caspian's background that I didn't know about, thanks for sharing. Personally, I have no doubts he, or someone he hires, has the expertise necessary to create a back end but what I'm more concerned about is that he didn't do it first thing. Something like that is absolutely essential to his game design and I just can't figure out why he didn't jump on it more, if only to figure out that SpatialOS wasn't working sooner. To me, he means well but (like me) has his head in the clouds as a visionary, going over the abstract design, lore, and tangential features, and hasn't knocked out the working prototype he really needs to sell his company to investors.
@AshyLarry24 That's some interesting insight to Caspian's background that I didn't know about, thanks for sharing. Personally, I have no doubts he, or someone he hires, has the expertise necessary to create a back end but what I'm more concerned about is that he didn't do it first thing. Something like that is absolutely essential to his game design and I just can't figure out why he didn't jump on it more, if only to figure out that SpatialOS wasn't working sooner. To me, he means well but (like me) has his head in the clouds as a visionary, going over the abstract design, lore, and tangential features, and hasn't knocked out the working prototype he really needs to sell his company to investors.
I just think that the typical production companies that would invest in a game wouldn't care about any of this. This is what they'd care about.
How do you plan on making money? Can you show us that payment model working in any other game? No. Then GTFO of here.
Now with a private investor, you might be right. And that's why I'm hopeful still.
And I totally agree with you that caspian is a bit of a dreamer. ONe of the things that worried me right away was the tribes. They seem to get blown out of proportion, from what they were originally going to be. Which on one had I really appreciate the creativity. But on the other, the last thing this game needs is to increase its scope.
Oh trust me man I was right on top of that shit right when that announcement was made. That's why a bunch of people were bitching at me. I used all the quotes you know and this is what I was told, and I was told by others it wouldn't be a problem and in fact it should work better than Spatial. There is suppose to be a guy in the field who is gonna be in a video explaining everything in the next few weeks (not an SBS employee, but a guy who works in this field).
Again maybe you're completely right, and what they're claiming isn't possible for a team of 19 people. But I think neither you nor I are experts in this I'm guessing. Right? So I mean if someone is on the level to explain this stuff, and why it's not possible or isn't feasible I'm all ears. But for now I'm trusting, but skeptical.
But again... my second point is that if they DID do it... they should focus on that as opposed to the game. Think how much investment a cheaper alternative to SpatialOS would raise.
Why sell $20 chain mail bikinis and whips? Why lean on backers who already gave you 4 times the 900k Kickstarter goal for even more money? SpatialOS is a goldmine for Improbable. Funding for the game would never be an issue...
And don’t forget... as we know even Improbable is struggling through issues with Worlds Adrift... with all their manpower and funding. This was the fabric the game was built on, and was doing everything they wanted as of Oct...but now they replaced it by Jan?
Given their track record I think they need to prove it. Simply saying how theoretically it is possible doesn’t have much value here...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@AshyLarry24 That's some interesting insight to Caspian's background that I didn't know about, thanks for sharing. Personally, I have no doubts he, or someone he hires, has the expertise necessary to create a back end but what I'm more concerned about is that he didn't do it first thing. Something like that is absolutely essential to his game design and I just can't figure out why he didn't jump on it more, if only to figure out that SpatialOS wasn't working sooner. To me, he means well but (like me) has his head in the clouds as a visionary, going over the abstract design, lore, and tangential features, and hasn't knocked out the working prototype he really needs to sell his company to investors.
I just think that the typical production companies that would invest in a game wouldn't care about any of this. This is what they'd care about.
How do you plan on making money? Can you show us that payment model working in any other game? No. Then GTFO of here.
Now with a private investor, you might be right. And that's why I'm hopeful still.
And I totally agree with you that caspian is a bit of a dreamer. ONe of the things that worried me right away was the tribes. They seem to get blown out of proportion, from what they were originally going to be. Which on one had I really appreciate the creativity. But on the other, the last thing this game needs is to increase its scope.
I do think that private venture capitalist firms are their best bet at this stage. I still have some hope but I won't be back on board until I see their back end shored up again and SBS generally getting down to the nuts and bolts instead of being fixated with the public image they're generating. Frankly, I think Caspian needs to just ignore the community entirely and hand it off to Vye so he can put out something people can invest in, instead of just hope for.
Oh trust me man I was right on top of that shit right when that announcement was made. That's why a bunch of people were bitching at me. I used all the quotes you know and this is what I was told, and I was told by others it wouldn't be a problem and in fact it should work better than Spatial. There is suppose to be a guy in the field who is gonna be in a video explaining everything in the next few weeks (not an SBS employee, but a guy who works in this field).
Again maybe you're completely right, and what they're claiming isn't possible for a team of 19 people. But I think neither you nor I are experts in this I'm guessing. Right? So I mean if someone is on the level to explain this stuff, and why it's not possible or isn't feasible I'm all ears. But for now I'm trusting, but skeptical.
But again... my second point is that if they DID do it... they should focus on that as opposed to the game. Think how much investment a cheaper alternative to SpatialOS would raise.
Why sell $20 chain mail bikinis and whips? Why lean on backers who already gave you 4 times the 900k Kickstarter goal for even more money? SpatialOS is a goldmine for Improbable. Funding for the game would never be an issue...
And don’t forget... as we know even Improbable is struggling through issues with Worlds Adrift... with all their manpower and funding. This was the fabric the game was built on, and was doing everything they wanted as of Oct...but now they replaced it by Jan?
Given their track record I think they need to prove it. Simply saying how theoretically it is possible doesn’t have much value here...
But Spatial OS wasn't built for gaming. That's one of the possibilities with SPatial OS sure, but that's not what it was built for necessarily. And according to Caspian they "arent rebuilding the wheel" so I don't think they've exactly rebuilt spatial. But again I feel dumb for even talking about this because I really have no clue to what I'm talking about. Like I said before most of the money they've gotten is from a Robotics company. CoE isn't even the only game that has droppes Spatial OS already. Maybe it's possible that SPatial OS isn't great for games, but is fantastic for other things out there. I also know that Spatial didn't provide support for some of the language they were using (It was a java something. NOt JavaScript but something else).
And you're completely right. They do need to prove it. This is the make or break year for CoE. This is the year where we should be getting core game mechanics and the real testing should begin. If we're not seeing massive strides in game development, the game is more than likely screwed. Or at the very least be pawned off to a production company and made F2P P2W like every other failed game.
And as for the stuff they sell I don't really care TBH. THey can sell whatever they want before release it doesn't both me.
Oh and I do think they thought Spatial OS was going to mitigate a bunch of the cost. I mean you can see even in the original post about it they thought it was going to make it so they didn't have to do anything on the back end, and just completely focus on developing a game. And for the last year, they had to work on the back end lol.
Oh trust me man I was right on top of that shit right when that announcement was made. That's why a bunch of people were bitching at me. I used all the quotes you know and this is what I was told, and I was told by others it wouldn't be a problem and in fact it should work better than Spatial. There is suppose to be a guy in the field who is gonna be in a video explaining everything in the next few weeks (not an SBS employee, but a guy who works in this field).
Again maybe you're completely right, and what they're claiming isn't possible for a team of 19 people. But I think neither you nor I are experts in this I'm guessing. Right? So I mean if someone is on the level to explain this stuff, and why it's not possible or isn't feasible I'm all ears. But for now I'm trusting, but skeptical.
But again... my second point is that if they DID do it... they should focus on that as opposed to the game. Think how much investment a cheaper alternative to SpatialOS would raise.
Why sell $20 chain mail bikinis and whips? Why lean on backers who already gave you 4 times the 900k Kickstarter goal for even more money? SpatialOS is a goldmine for Improbable. Funding for the game would never be an issue...
And don’t forget... as we know even Improbable is struggling through issues with Worlds Adrift... with all their manpower and funding. This was the fabric the game was built on, and was doing everything they wanted as of Oct...but now they replaced it by Jan?
Given their track record I think they need to prove it. Simply saying how theoretically it is possible doesn’t have much value here...
I get what you're saying but I think it would be a mistake for them to focus on the value of the back end like Improbable does. They just need a custom solution for their game, on the Unreal Client, and nothing else while Improbable has to worry about ease of use and customer interfacing with a variety of clients. SBS doesn't have an insurmountable level of work to do, they just have to concentrate on getting it done. In other words, their issue isn't that they abandoned a particular solution, just that they aren't focused on what they should be, when they should be.
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
Well I don't think he was exactly lying there right? I don't think Spatial OS is incapable of doing what they wanted to do. It just ended up not being the perfect solution they once. And you're probably right, and I don't think they were secretive about that. It did end up costing more than they thought.
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
SpatialOS is one of those technologies where, if you're a game developer, you slap yourself on the forehead when you see it and wonder why nobody thought of it before. But it isn't really a black box, something that can't be mimicked or copied. It's basically just a new design paradigm to follow to decentralize logic into bite-sized chunks so it can be distributed over a cloud of servers. The implementation is tough, sure, but so is the implementation for any networked architecture. SBS can create their own solution, the biggest issue is why haven't they already cemented their solution for the back end by now?
SpatialOS is one of those technologies where, if you're a game developer, you slap yourself on the forehead when you see it and wonder why nobody thought of it before. But it isn't really a black box, something that can't be mimicked or copied. It's basically just a new design paradigm to follow to decentralize logic into bite-sized chunks so it can be distributed over a cloud of servers. The implementation is tough, sure, but so is the implementation for any networked architecture. SBS can create their own solution, the biggest issue is why haven't they already cemented their solution for the back end by now?
I don't know. I honestly don't even know that they haven't. I'm pretty sure that's what they said they've been doing for the last year, and maybe they already have those solutions? That's part of the reason the last year has had very little content to share. THey thought originally SPatial would allow them to just work on the game, and not worry about the back end stuff, and that ended up not being true.
How exactly will we know that this stuff is working properly? DO they have to do a stress test or something?
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
Well I don't think he was exactly lying there right? I don't think Spatial OS is incapable of doing what they wanted to do. It just ended up not being the perfect solution they once. And you're probably right, and I don't think they were secretive about that. It did end up costing more than they thought.
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
I see the private forums info... not sure who told you that high backers knew they were ditching SpatialOS months before it was announced but I think they were telling you an untruth.
My point on the the video was the timing. If what he said in Oct was true... how can he then say they were working on replacing it all year?
But again.. as I say in the Way Forward thread... it doesn’t even matter anymore. They just need to know where to go from here. That’s why I say reduce scope. Build it for a more reasonable and likely number of players... expand it later after it’s tested and proven.
He seems to still be building toward that million person community from the quote I showed earlier. That’s just simply not close to reality.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't expect anyone to see a couple people laid off and look at that as good news.
And I agree on some things. It irritates me that every single kickstarter game lies about their expected release date. Every single one does it. But in fairness I knew the minute I saw that date it isn't viable, and I was very open about that opinion.
And sure that might of happened with some games that failed, but it has also happened with games that succeeded. Like I've said in another thread, Deliverence was I think scheduled for December 2015 a long with CU. Both games are extremely late, but both games are also releasing soon too.
I get some of the apprehension toward kickstarter, but you know what irritates me even more? The same fuckin games constantly being released with new skins. Developers that waste millions of dollars on cinematics and advertising, while putting 0 effort or thought into design. Developers that don't listen to a single thing their community has to say, and have little to no interaction with their communities.
Maybe some of you are right. Maybe this game is a mistake. Maybe people are wasting money funding it, and maybe it never comes out, or isn't what it was suppose to be when it does come out. But I'd rather give my money to people who are willing to take risks in the industry than to buy the same re-released garbage that triple A companies shit out every 6 months. Believe it or not, a lot of CoE community are people who have serious doubts that they can pull this off. But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
I think he would have gotten a lot more sympathy if he didn't attack those who questioned the unreasonable timeline in the Kickstarter. Instead he challenged those who dared question it. He made silly statements about his gantt charts... blah blah...
Then when the delay was announced if he had been even slightly self-deprecating it would have been received so much better. If he had done something like shown his Gantt charts but turned them upside down with a smile and a wink... anything. Instead he just blamed the community for taking too much of his time asking questions and prospective employees for not understanding the great deal he was offering.
Remember... they key things he was questioned on:
1. The timeline... which we know was proven to be unrealistic 2. The budget... which we also know was way off 3. The fact that he would only need crowdfunding as seed money to attract an investor... which we know is not true and they needed waaaaaaay more money from the fans. 4. That the game would be made possible because of SpatialOS... which they dropped
Does some of the criticism go over the top. Absolutely. But honestly, I think it's for the most part... grounded in reality.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM CLOSE AND LAYOFF MORE STAFF
That is absolutely true to my core. I absolutely hated that I watched the same thing happen to Pathfinder Online. The echo Chamber there kept Ryan Dancy in a bubble and let him run the project right off a cliff. I listened to Lisa break down describing how she had to lay off almost the whole team. IT WAS FREAKING AVOIDABLE. Same here. It doesn't have to end in disaster. Everyone can keep their jobs... Caspien can buy back his dream land and build his wife a new house. But they simply have to start getting closer to reality. I just recently posted Caspien's words from Dec 2016 where he actually thought his community would be over a million right now.
It's great to dream big... but those dreams are wasted if they aren't grounded in reality. Read what I posted in The Way Forward thread. Some of that may not be the best answer... but at least it's a discussion about what can be done from here... in a realistic manner.
Coming from a guy that tries to spin that CoE wont have 1000+ player battles as bad news, when they never said they would have 1000+ player battles, it comes off as you're just pissing on them and want them to fail..
Get your shit straight,
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
Well I don't think he was exactly lying there right? I don't think Spatial OS is incapable of doing what they wanted to do. It just ended up not being the perfect solution they once. And you're probably right, and I don't think they were secretive about that. It did end up costing more than they thought.
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
I see the private forums info... not sure who told you that high backers knew they were ditching SpatialOS months before it was announced but I think they were telling you an untruth.
My point on the the video was the timing. If what he said in Oct was true... how can he then say they were working on replacing it all year?
But again.. as I say in the Way Forward thread... it doesn’t even matter anymore. They just need to know where to go from here. That’s why I say reduce scope. Build it for a more reasonable and likely number of players... expand it later after it’s tested and proven.
He seems to still be building toward that million person community from the quote I showed earlier. That’s just simply not close to reality.
A lot of people are in agreement with you on them needing to reduce scope.
I wouldn't be mad if they decided to get rid of some things in order to finish the product, and add them later. And I've been leaning toward that direction to. Either that or redo their payment system in order to attract a production company. But I think I'd rather them do like you said and just reduce scope if they have to. It would be a bummer for me if this game just never came out because the devs weren't willing to compromise. But we have been assured that they will compromise if they have to in order to get a producer. Which sucks but yeah. Shit happens.
SpatialOS is one of those technologies where, if you're a game developer, you slap yourself on the forehead when you see it and wonder why nobody thought of it before. But it isn't really a black box, something that can't be mimicked or copied. It's basically just a new design paradigm to follow to decentralize logic into bite-sized chunks so it can be distributed over a cloud of servers. The implementation is tough, sure, but so is the implementation for any networked architecture. SBS can create their own solution, the biggest issue is why haven't they already cemented their solution for the back end by now?
I don't know. I honestly don't even know that they haven't. I'm pretty sure that's what they said they've been doing for the last year, and maybe they already have those solutions? That's part of the reason the last year has had very little content to share. THey thought originally SPatial would allow them to just work on the game, and not worry about the back end stuff, and that ended up not being true.
How exactly will we know that this stuff is working properly? DO they have to do a stress test or something?
They very much have to do a stress test, especially if they're going to be developing it themselves now. In the video that Slap linked they mention that very problem and it could even be why they ended up ditching SpatialOS in the first place. The real indicator of success is when they can have hundreds of Unreal Clients with basic avatars all playing on one map. Even that won't be good enough to test it for real, but it should give them a ton of data to work with for the back end. For example, I was an Internal Tester for CU for a time and they constantly sent out emails for larger and larger tests to make sure the tech was in place for the scale they were shooting for. That's the real reason that CU got investors and CoE hasn't yet. They need something that is testable and something that can prove their tech works.
SpatialOS is one of those technologies where, if you're a game developer, you slap yourself on the forehead when you see it and wonder why nobody thought of it before. But it isn't really a black box, something that can't be mimicked or copied. It's basically just a new design paradigm to follow to decentralize logic into bite-sized chunks so it can be distributed over a cloud of servers. The implementation is tough, sure, but so is the implementation for any networked architecture. SBS can create their own solution, the biggest issue is why haven't they already cemented their solution for the back end by now?
I don't know. I honestly don't even know that they haven't. I'm pretty sure that's what they said they've been doing for the last year, and maybe they already have those solutions? That's part of the reason the last year has had very little content to share. THey thought originally SPatial would allow them to just work on the game, and not worry about the back end stuff, and that ended up not being true.
How exactly will we know that this stuff is working properly? DO they have to do a stress test or something?
They very much have to do a stress test, especially if they're going to be developing it themselves now. In the video that Slap linked they mention that very problem and it could even be why they ended up ditching SpatialOS in the first place. The real indicator of success is when they can have hundreds of Unreal Clients with basic avatars all playing on one map. Even that won't be good enough to test it for real, but it should give them a ton of data to work with for the back end. For example, I was an Internal Tester for CU for a time and they constantly sent out emails for larger and larger tests to make sure the tech was in place for the scale they were shooting for. That's the real reason that CU got investors and CoE hasn't yet. They need something that is testable and something that can prove their tech works.
Well hopefully they reach Alpha then before they run out of funds. Anyone want a chain bra?
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
I don't know this. But perhaps the reason they aren't releasing their own gaming version of SpatialOS is because...
1) they aren't allowed to re-license the solutions their currently using instead.
2) maybe CoE is the test case, and after their solution has been proven they'll start selling the engine.
3) or there currently isn't a market demand for their version of the SpatialOS system. Maybe they'd sign a few studios up, but not enough to keep the lights open.
I don't think it's fair to deduce that they haven't adequately replaced their SpatialOS needs, because they haven't decided to become a SpatialOS competitor.
I agree that SBS has lost all credibility. But I don't think this small point is that telling.
Edit: they'd probably also get sued by Improbable for breach of a NDA or non-compete.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
Well I don't think he was exactly lying there right? I don't think Spatial OS is incapable of doing what they wanted to do. It just ended up not being the perfect solution they once. And you're probably right, and I don't think they were secretive about that. It did end up costing more than they thought.
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
I see the private forums info... not sure who told you that high backers knew they were ditching SpatialOS months before it was announced but I think they were telling you an untruth.
My point on the the video was the timing. If what he said in Oct was true... how can he then say they were working on replacing it all year?
But again.. as I say in the Way Forward thread... it doesn’t even matter anymore. They just need to know where to go from here. That’s why I say reduce scope. Build it for a more reasonable and likely number of players... expand it later after it’s tested and proven.
He seems to still be building toward that million person community from the quote I showed earlier. That’s just simply not close to reality.
A lot of people are in agreement with you on them needing to reduce scope.
I wouldn't be mad if they decided to get rid of some things in order to finish the product, and add them later. And I've been leaning toward that direction to. Either that or redo their payment system in order to attract a production company. But I think I'd rather them do like you said and just reduce scope if they have to. It would be a bummer for me if this game just never came out because the devs weren't willing to compromise. But we have been assured that they will compromise if they have to in order to get a producer. Which sucks but yeah. Shit happens.
Given that Caspian has already mentioned that publishers and backers want Loot-Boxes, it's not the game or how vast his scope is, it's purely an issue of money at this point. The backers are more into how he plans to fleece his player base on a continual and regular basis to generate constant income once the game.
Which, IMHO, is a real issue to say the least, I know purity of game and all that, but there is lot he could do to ensure that money is always coming in.
For example. I know there is talk of being able to take anything from anyone, including the Throne, but that is not really profitable to the game, so as opposed to that, have it so that someone would need to buy a Crown (10,000 Dollars) to Rule the Kingdom , even if they killed the the previous King, or else the Throne goes up to vote among the people (at 10 dollars a vote).
I get that there would be a lot of people that would not like this idea, but, what players like, and what bankers like, is seldom the same.. hence.. Loot-Boxes.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
Well I don't think he was exactly lying there right? I don't think Spatial OS is incapable of doing what they wanted to do. It just ended up not being the perfect solution they once. And you're probably right, and I don't think they were secretive about that. It did end up costing more than they thought.
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
I see the private forums info... not sure who told you that high backers knew they were ditching SpatialOS months before it was announced but I think they were telling you an untruth.
My point on the the video was the timing. If what he said in Oct was true... how can he then say they were working on replacing it all year?
But again.. as I say in the Way Forward thread... it doesn’t even matter anymore. They just need to know where to go from here. That’s why I say reduce scope. Build it for a more reasonable and likely number of players... expand it later after it’s tested and proven.
He seems to still be building toward that million person community from the quote I showed earlier. That’s just simply not close to reality.
A lot of people are in agreement with you on them needing to reduce scope.
I wouldn't be mad if they decided to get rid of some things in order to finish the product, and add them later. And I've been leaning toward that direction to. Either that or redo their payment system in order to attract a production company. But I think I'd rather them do like you said and just reduce scope if they have to. It would be a bummer for me if this game just never came out because the devs weren't willing to compromise. But we have been assured that they will compromise if they have to in order to get a producer. Which sucks but yeah. Shit happens.
Given that Caspian has already mentioned that publishers and backers want Loot-Boxes, it's not the game or how vast his scope is, it's purely an issue of money at this point. The backers are more into how he plans to fleece his player base on a continual and regular basis to generate constant income once the game.
Which, IMHO, is a real issue to say the least, I know purity of game and all that, but there is lot he could do to ensure that money is always coming in.
For example. I know there is talk of being able to take anything from anyone, including the Throne, but that is not really profitable to the game, so as opposed to that, have it so that someone would need to buy a Crown (10,000 Dollars) to Rule the Kingdom , even if they killed the the previous King, or else the Throne goes up to vote among the people (at 10 dollars a vote).
I get that there would be a lot of people that would not like this idea, but, what players like, and what bankers like, is seldom the same.. hence.. Loot-Boxes.
What they really need to do is go full subscription model and give everyone a new character life each year included in it then sell any lives in excess of that. It would be an unpopular move for the fans but one they would accept if SBS explained it was necessary for keeping the game alive and for seeking funding (because it probably is).
I don't think the subscription model is very attractive to a huge amount of players. I think it could be successful, but I also think you are pushing away a ton of people instantly if you do that. A lot of people when they hear "monthly subscription" immediately go "FUCK NO". And a lot of games that do a sub, have to go F2P as well in this day and age. And a F2P model would really not work in this game.
It seems like I'm in the minority here, but one of my favorite things about the game is the payment model. The way that the skill system works, makes it so you are forced to make an alt, if you want to try something new, but don't want to lose your progress on your current character/soul. If you have a soul that is a grandmaster smith, but try to train that same soul in PvP you will lose your grandmaster title. So people will probably want to buy a new spark, and start a new soul for PvPing instead of changing the profession of their current character/soul. I honestly think people will end up with 2 or 3 characters going at the same time. Especially with the amount of alt whores that are out there.
I think this game has a huge potential for people making multiple alts, and ending up paying more than an average sub.
That being said. I would way rather them go to a sub model, then add loot boxes, or a store that sells skins, and destroys the economy of the game. Sure it might upset some people, but it wouldn't have a huge effect on the design of the game like a lot of the other alternatives. I hope they're at least able to give this payment model a chance, but if it comes down to it, I'm open to change, if that's what needs to happen.
I think any monetization method with this particular design is not ideal but my biggest concern at the moment is for them to attract investors, not players. The community is solid, so much so that they are actively engaged even at this early stage of development, but they badly need venture capitalists to invest. A subscription model is a proven method of leveraging their already large community and gives them solid numbers to present in their pitches.
I think they also need to disconnect death with payment. Folks hate dying to other players, but if each death now cost them money its going to turn a bunch of people off. I think a sub is ideal. Sell sparks with specific skill dispositions if they want.
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Comments
And again, I had my doubts about SpatialOS. Especially for the first wave of games using it. It’s gojng to take time. That said, they have funding and manpower an order of magnitude (or more) greater than SBS plus years of development behind it.
Nobody is questioning whether some of the programs Caspien listed are capable programs, but they need to work seemlessly together. THAT was the magic of SpatialOS. So we are being asked to believe that the same folks who told us in Oct that SpatialOS was great... managed to recreate the special sauce that got Improbable half a billion dollars in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of the manpower for a fraction of the cost. What’s the rule of development? Speed, Cost, Quality... pick 2. He hit home runs in all 3 categories while we know he’s struggled on at least 2 of those across his whole project? Seems highly unlikely.
Remember... his own words were shown in my earlier post. SpatialOS was 5he answer to all the questions...
Again, I’d they DID do that they should focus on that as their product, then after makiing hundreds of millions of dollars.. come back and make the dream game a reality.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again maybe you're completely right, and what they're claiming isn't possible for a team of 19 people. But I think neither you nor I are experts in this I'm guessing. Right? So I mean if someone is on the level to explain this stuff, and why it's not possible or isn't feasible I'm all ears. But for now I'm trusting, but skeptical.
That's some interesting insight to Caspian's background that I didn't know about, thanks for sharing. Personally, I have no doubts he, or someone he hires, has the expertise necessary to create a back end but what I'm more concerned about is that he didn't do it first thing. Something like that is absolutely essential to his game design and I just can't figure out why he didn't jump on it more, if only to figure out that SpatialOS wasn't working sooner. To me, he means well but (like me) has his head in the clouds as a visionary, going over the abstract design, lore, and tangential features, and hasn't knocked out the working prototype he really needs to sell his company to investors.
How do you plan on making money?
Can you show us that payment model working in any other game?
No. Then GTFO of here.
Now with a private investor, you might be right. And that's why I'm hopeful still.
And I totally agree with you that caspian is a bit of a dreamer. ONe of the things that worried me right away was the tribes. They seem to get blown out of proportion, from what they were originally going to be. Which on one had I really appreciate the creativity. But on the other, the last thing this game needs is to increase its scope.
Why sell $20 chain mail bikinis and whips? Why lean on backers who already gave you 4 times the 900k Kickstarter goal for even more money? SpatialOS is a goldmine for Improbable. Funding for the game would never be an issue...
And don’t forget... as we know even Improbable is struggling through issues with Worlds Adrift... with all their manpower and funding. This was the fabric the game was built on, and was doing everything they wanted as of Oct...but now they replaced it by Jan?
Given their track record I think they need to prove it. Simply saying how theoretically it is possible doesn’t have much value here...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And you're completely right. They do need to prove it. This is the make or break year for CoE. This is the year where we should be getting core game mechanics and the real testing should begin. If we're not seeing massive strides in game development, the game is more than likely screwed. Or at the very least be pawned off to a production company and made F2P P2W like every other failed game.
And as for the stuff they sell I don't really care TBH. THey can sell whatever they want before release it doesn't both me.
Oh and I do think they thought Spatial OS was going to mitigate a bunch of the cost. I mean you can see even in the original post about it they thought it was going to make it so they didn't have to do anything on the back end, and just completely focus on developing a game. And for the last year, they had to work on the back end lol.
Jump to the 27th minute. Listen to SpatialOS discussion. He says they have been working on parts of the backend that are “Not Spatial in nature” and that regarding SpatialOS they have “No doubt that the technology can do what they want it to do”
How does that mesh with his claim that they were working on replacing Spatial since early last year?
I personally think that’s bullshit. I think they pulled out of SpatialOS because they realized they couldn’t pay for it (another project management fail) and that they scrambled at some point after this video (mid Oct) to come up with a Way Forward. I think there is a near zero chance that they were able to duplicate the benefits of SpatialOS in a few weeks with a few people.
But again... if they DID do it, they are freaking geniuses working on the wrong project and should turn their attention to being a SpatialOS competitor.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And you also have to understand all this stuff was constantly talked with to backers, while all this was happening. All this information was known by people with NDA's months before it was announced.
And again, I hate being the asshole who constantly repeats himself.. But I don't know anything about this stuff. SO I don't really know what to think of it. It's all goes over my head lol.
How exactly will we know that this stuff is working properly? DO they have to do a stress test or something?
My point on the the video was the timing. If what he said in Oct was true... how can he then say they were working on replacing it all year?
But again.. as I say in the Way Forward thread... it doesn’t even matter anymore. They just need to know where to go from here. That’s why I say reduce scope. Build it for a more reasonable and likely number of players... expand it later after it’s tested and proven.
He seems to still be building toward that million person community from the quote I showed earlier. That’s just simply not close to reality.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Get your shit straight,
I wouldn't be mad if they decided to get rid of some things in order to finish the product, and add them later. And I've been leaning toward that direction to. Either that or redo their payment system in order to attract a production company. But I think I'd rather them do like you said and just reduce scope if they have to. It would be a bummer for me if this game just never came out because the devs weren't willing to compromise. But we have been assured that they will compromise if they have to in order to get a producer. Which sucks but yeah. Shit happens.
*ponder and skip over it
An actual critical and civilized discussion going on.
I'm mindblown.
More of this please.
1) they aren't allowed to re-license the solutions their currently using instead.
2) maybe CoE is the test case, and after their solution has been proven they'll start selling the engine.
3) or there currently isn't a market demand for their version of the SpatialOS system. Maybe they'd sign a few studios up, but not enough to keep the lights open.
I don't think it's fair to deduce that they haven't adequately replaced their SpatialOS needs, because they haven't decided to become a SpatialOS competitor.
I agree that SBS has lost all credibility. But I don't think this small point is that telling.
Edit: they'd probably also get sued by Improbable for breach of a NDA or non-compete.
(I couldn't resist)
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Which, IMHO, is a real issue to say the least, I know purity of game and all that, but there is lot he could do to ensure that money is always coming in.
For example. I know there is talk of being able to take anything from anyone, including the Throne, but that is not really profitable to the game, so as opposed to that, have it so that someone would need to buy a Crown (10,000 Dollars) to Rule the Kingdom , even if they killed the the previous King, or else the Throne goes up to vote among the people (at 10 dollars a vote).
I get that there would be a lot of people that would not like this idea, but, what players like, and what bankers like, is seldom the same.. hence.. Loot-Boxes.
I don't think the subscription model is very attractive to a huge amount of players. I think it could be successful, but I also think you are pushing away a ton of people instantly if you do that. A lot of people when they hear "monthly subscription" immediately go "FUCK NO". And a lot of games that do a sub, have to go F2P as well in this day and age. And a F2P model would really not work in this game.
It seems like I'm in the minority here, but one of my favorite things about the game is the payment model. The way that the skill system works, makes it so you are forced to make an alt, if you want to try something new, but don't want to lose your progress on your current character/soul. If you have a soul that is a grandmaster smith, but try to train that same soul in PvP you will lose your grandmaster title. So people will probably want to buy a new spark, and start a new soul for PvPing instead of changing the profession of their current character/soul. I honestly think people will end up with 2 or 3 characters going at the same time. Especially with the amount of alt whores that are out there.
I think this game has a huge potential for people making multiple alts, and ending up paying more than an average sub.
That being said. I would way rather them go to a sub model, then add loot boxes, or a store that sells skins, and destroys the economy of the game. Sure it might upset some people, but it wouldn't have a huge effect on the design of the game like a lot of the other alternatives. I hope they're at least able to give this payment model a chance, but if it comes down to it, I'm open to change, if that's what needs to happen.
I think any monetization method with this particular design is not ideal but my biggest concern at the moment is for them to attract investors, not players. The community is solid, so much so that they are actively engaged even at this early stage of development, but they badly need venture capitalists to invest. A subscription model is a proven method of leveraging their already large community and gives them solid numbers to present in their pitches.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018