Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
And before you say it, I know... You don't care what I say about you. Just take it as a sign of good will.
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
I don't agree with some of the stuff your saying but sure man. I'll try to be more civil in discussion. But to be honest this isn't exactly a place that's very welcoming to new posters. And there is a very strong bias in this forum of negativity about this game, and a lot of it is unfounded.
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
I don't agree with some of the stuff your saying but sure man. I'll try to be more civil in discussion. But to be honest this isn't exactly a place that's very welcoming to new posters. And there is a very strong bias in this forum of negativity about this game, and a lot of it is unfounded.
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
Nice... and I get that we are skeptical of new posters that dive right into CoE forum and start unleashing a flurry of posts and attacking other posters. There is literally a crazy guy that has made at least 6 accounts, pretending to be someone new. I’ve looked you up so I know your not him now.... just explaining the skeptic reception.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
I don't agree with some of the stuff your saying but sure man. I'll try to be more civil in discussion. But to be honest this isn't exactly a place that's very welcoming to new posters. And there is a very strong bias in this forum of negativity about this game, and a lot of it is unfounded.
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
Nice... and I get that we are skeptical of new posters that dive right into CoE forum and start unleashing a flurry of posts and attacking other posters. There is literally a crazy guy that has made at least 6 accounts, pretending to be someone new. I’ve looked you up so I know your not him now.... just explaining the skeptic reception.
No problem man. As far as I'm concerned we're on a clean slate.
I apologize to the other posters I have been mean to or offended. I will do better in the future, and try my best to not add/create anymore toxicity.
Aww, look at that there is hope for the world in general. Now let's debate how the justice system will or won't work (assuming the game gets finished ofc).
Hmm.. That answer comes 1 month after the question was asked and bumped a thread that died 10 days ago.
The irony in your post is strong.
But Gdmemami here has adopted CoE as his favorite crowdfunding project, so we have to endure his inane, completely ill-timed one-liners.
@AshyLarry24 Wizardry never said he's taking "0 risk" (you put that in quotes, which was literally the only way to make that claim inaccurate to Wizardry's post), he said little to no risk. I don't agree that no risk is being taken, but the point he was making with his hyperbole is one that's been very well debated since the inception of crowdfunding as an MMORPG funding technique. Nothing about your post addresses his point, you were way too concerned with the hyperbole to respond to the underlying point being made.
His underlying point doesn't apply to this game. Does it maybe apply to other kickstarters? Sure, maybe. I don't know. I don't know what the guys at Crowfall risked in order to make their game. I haven't followed it closely enough. Or any kickstarter game other than CoE.
But if it is hyperbole and if it doesn't have anything to do with this game, then why is it posted here? One can only assume someone complaining about kickstarter game devs taking "little to no risk" in the CoE forum is talking about CoE as well as making a claim about the kickstarter indie game industry.
IMO it came off as he was bundling CoE into his hyperbole about the industry as a whole. And I think it's silly to think that he wasn't, considering what forum it's in. He was clearly laying that claim on CoE. And to me $500k isn't a "small risk". It's a huge risk.
But again, nothing about your post addressed the larger point he was making, of which he most certainly is including CoE. The traits applied to the whole apply to the specific, unless there's something unique that would exclude it. CoE is a crowdfunded MMORPG that's suffered massive delays. The devs behind it can close shop up and have no further obligation to backers so long as they gave it the ole college try. That was his point, and CoE is not unique in that sense.
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
I don't agree with some of the stuff your saying but sure man. I'll try to be more civil in discussion. But to be honest this isn't exactly a place that's very welcoming to new posters. And there is a very strong bias in this forum of negativity about this game, and a lot of it is unfounded.
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
With all due respect. The negativity is founded. Most of us have been here for years. This site has seen everything that has come down the pipeline that anyone can even remotely call an MMO. And trust me, this site will call anything with a login screen an MMO.
It has discussed development, monetization, game play, time tables....everything about everything about all the games that have come through here for years.
The site has seen enough for all of us to have developed a pretty good idea what it takes for a studio to put out a game. We have seen what happens when corners are cut. We have seen what happens when there are layoffs. We have seen what happens when developers chose the wrong engine. Etc Etc. None of it is new and we aren't ignorant to what it means. These are all signs of trouble and have ended with canceled projects. The Repopulation, EQNext, Dominus, The list goes on.
The ideas that "development has stabilized" after layoffs or that they can create their own substitute for "SpatialOS" are absurd.
Did Jeromy sell his property or mortgage it? Has any Crowdfunding money been used to pay it off? Do we know? Do we care?
Asked and answered: The land sale closed around this time last year which infused the company with another $350k - bringing us to a toal of $500k in starting capital. (edited to add that quote is from Dec 2016)
So kudos to him. He has much more skin in the game than many Kickstarters do.
Holy shit slap. That sounds like a... Compliment?
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
I call it like I see it. If you want to build credibility here I suggest less (IMHO) brown nosing on Discord and toning down the verbal assault with calling folks assholes or douche or putting down MMORPG.COM in general on the Discord. Talk about issues and not other posters and we’ll get along fine.
I don't agree with some of the stuff your saying but sure man. I'll try to be more civil in discussion. But to be honest this isn't exactly a place that's very welcoming to new posters. And there is a very strong bias in this forum of negativity about this game, and a lot of it is unfounded.
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
With all due respect. The negativity is founded. Most of us have been here for years. This site has seen everything that has come down the pipeline that anyone can even remotely call an MMO. And trust me, this site will call anything with a login screen an MMO.
It has discussed development, monetization, game play, time tables....everything about everything about all the games that have come through here for years.
The site has seen enough for all of us to have developed a pretty good idea what it takes for a studio to put out a game. We have seen what happens when corners are cut. We have seen what happens when there are layoffs. We have seen what happens when developers chose the wrong engine. Etc Etc. None of it is new and we aren't ignorant to what it means. These are all signs of trouble and have ended with canceled projects. The Repopulation, EQNext, Dominus, The list goes on.
The ideas that "development has stabilized" after layoffs or that they can create their own substitute for "SpatialOS" are absurd.
The negativity might be founded but it is never warranted. This site has certainly seen more about MMO mechanics and design debates then anywhere else I've seen on the web, even sites for game developers. But that doesn't mean it's okay to sling mud and throw dirt on people with personal character attacks. Just because someone has expertise in something doesn't make them a better person than those with a different area of expertise.
I don't think they are creating their own spatial OS, they are using multiple different things to substitute Spatial OS. Yes some of the back end they had to do themselves, but they aren't going to be making their own cloud server exactly lol. I was told the things they were gonna be using instead, but tbh I don't remember what they were called. I'm not an extremely tech savvy guy.
Anyways I'm not the right person to talk to about this. When I have concerns like this, I go to other members of the CoE community that are in related fields and ask what they think, and they seemed to be okay with it. If someone with similar expertise has a reason for concern, then I'm all ears.
He discredits himself with his business model,nuff said. I have nothing against him or any of his team,i hold this same feeling about ANY and ALL devs doing this.it is a shotty business practice with little to no risk. I wish people would give me money and have nobody to answer to,wouldn't life be grand.
Well, if you think it' so peachy and little risk, what's stopping you from trying to do the same thing he is.. only.. you know.. you would be so much better of course.
Says the person who is too risk-adverse to even buy a base pledge package, yet defends the game like it's his own...
This, is a damn good point.
Now, the way I have rolled has always been, I don't buy a game till there is a game, I don't play a game till it goes live, and I play the game for how it is now, not how it's supposed to be in the future. That is just how I roll.
This has nothing to do with CoE directly or any issues of risk-adverse. Even if this game was being backed by a AAA publisher and being made by a established and reliable development studio, with a 100% Chance of going live within the year, I'd still wait till it went live to buy it.
With that said. We all know that none of you want to take the risk that this Caspian guy is, because it's just that.. a risk. It's not some flowery walk in the park where people dolt money on you with no responsibilities on your part.. so. with that put out.. can we dispense with that illusion now?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't expect anyone to see a couple people laid off and look at that as good news.
And I agree on some things. It irritates me that every single kickstarter game lies about their expected release date. Every single one does it. But in fairness I knew the minute I saw that date it isn't viable, and I was very open about that opinion.
And sure that might of happened with some games that failed, but it has also happened with games that succeeded. Like I've said in another thread, Deliverence was I think scheduled for December 2015 a long with CU. Both games are extremely late, but both games are also releasing soon too.
I get some of the apprehension toward kickstarter, but you know what irritates me even more? The same fuckin games constantly being released with new skins. Developers that waste millions of dollars on cinematics and advertising, while putting 0 effort or thought into design. Developers that don't listen to a single thing their community has to say, and have little to no interaction with their communities.
Maybe some of you are right. Maybe this game is a mistake. Maybe people are wasting money funding it, and maybe it never comes out, or isn't what it was suppose to be when it does come out. But I'd rather give my money to people who are willing to take risks in the industry than to buy the same re-released garbage that triple A companies shit out every 6 months. Believe it or not, a lot of CoE community are people who have serious doubts that they can pull this off. But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
a great question would be.. how many people pissing on SBS and CoE, actually still play MMO's anymore?
I mean. it begs the question, if you don't even play, what you are doing here?
BTW. I am enjoying BDO, and Eternal Crusade or GW2 ... thanks to that energy system.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
That's the thing I've come to believe over the course of watching this crowdfunded MMORPG debacle play out: the genre isn't dying. It's retreating back into its niche. I don't believe traditional MMORPG gameplay was ever something that held a lot of mainstream appeal. WoW was a flash in the pan, and it put the genre in the forefront for a while, but what has happened since? We've seen dev team after dev team cannibalize their content to offer it up at the altar of the microtransaction to attempt to increase the longevity of the game through slick marketing that adds very little depth, if any, to the game itself.
Games like CoE might be able to exist, but not until the industry recognizes the genre for what it is and stops trying to lump it in with other genres to attempt to make it look like it deserves a larger crowd than it does.
This genre is a niche. It's a nerdy one, one that takes more dedication than the average video game (just as tabletops took more dedication than the average board game). It was never supposed to be a major player in the industry, but with a lot of Skinner box technique application, it has bloated itself into something that's much more palatable to the mainstream. It lost much of its own soul to achieve it.
However, I also see a very dangerous situation for consumers with regards to crowdfunding, and the past years have indicated to me it's a poor fit for development of MMORPG titles. The best thing for the genre is to let go of the idea that MMORPGs are a 6v6 hero shooter genre that releases titles to tens of millions of customers and recognize that it's a massively multiplayer experience centered around the interaction of players in a virtual world, titles that release to mere millions. Then, recognize who the audience is that actually wants that experience, not just multiplayer with some character building thrown in. Because despite being relatively small, there are still a multitude of folks who will obviously pay extra money for a game that provides them an experience unlike anything they can get from any other genre.
In that environment, projects like these might thrive in a traditional business setup that went in with realistic expectations and a well thought-out business plan to sustain long-term retention from those who want that experience. I just don't think crowdfunding is the best way to go about forcing innovation onto the scene when there's still so much white noise and a whole lot of unrealistic expectations from the industry around what it means to be "successful".
That doesn't even touch on how the requirements of constant updates when crowdfunding leads to fan fatigue and/or over-hype.
I don't think they are creating their own spatial OS, they are using multiple different things to substitute Spatial OS. Yes some of the back end they had to do themselves, but they aren't going to be making their own cloud server exactly lol. I was told the things they were gonna be using instead, but tbh I don't remember what they were called. I'm not an extremely tech savvy guy.
Anyways I'm not the right person to talk to about this. When I have concerns like this, I go to other members of the CoE community that are in related fields and ask what they think, and they seemed to be okay with it. If someone with similar expertise has a reason for concern, then I'm all ears.
My point is simply this. Improbable, the guys behind SpatialOS just got over a half a billion dollars in funding to back their product. If it were as easy as pulling some off the shelf open source programs and having a few guys spend some time tying them together why would SpatialOS have gotten that funding. In the KS campaign itself, SpatialOS was billed as the fabric the game would be built on. If the dev team really did come up with a solution that's just as good they should forget about making the game for a bit and just focus on selling their home brewed solution. If Improbable got a half a billion dollars and these guys can do it cheaper and at least as good then funding would not be a problem!
Also, remember... it was just in October that we have video of the SBS guys saying that SpatialOS could do everything they wanted... 2 months later we are told it can't, but not to worry because they already have re-created it?
It just doesn't make any sense...
FYI here is Caspien's original PR statement in the Kickstarter about SpatialOS:
This partnership has been in the works for a while now and answers the fundamental question people have been asking "How are you going to build a world this large, with a hundred thousands players, and all these never-before-seen features?!" The answer is SpatialOS.
SpatialOS will act as the fabric that our game is built on. It's the server technology that will allow us to support millions of entities in the world. Built first and foremost as a scalable, distributed operating system for games, SpatialOS means we don't have to spend time developing the things that generally take the most time when building a new MMO.
We don't have to worry about networking on the server, load balancing all the entities in the world, replication of entities across multiple server nodes, cross-process communication, collision detection of millions of entities, etc. In short, we don't have to worry about developing any of the technology that makes an MMO, an MMO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't think they are creating their own spatial OS, they are using multiple different things to substitute Spatial OS. Yes some of the back end they had to do themselves, but they aren't going to be making their own cloud server exactly lol. I was told the things they were gonna be using instead, but tbh I don't remember what they were called. I'm not an extremely tech savvy guy.
Anyways I'm not the right person to talk to about this. When I have concerns like this, I go to other members of the CoE community that are in related fields and ask what they think, and they seemed to be okay with it. If someone with similar expertise has a reason for concern, then I'm all ears.
My point is simply this. Improbable, the guys behind SpatialOS just got over a half a billion dollars in funding to back their product. If it were as easy as pulling some off the shelf open source programs and having a few guys spend some time tying them together why would SpatialOS have gotten that funding. In the KS campaign itself, SpatialOS was billed as the fabric the game would be built on. If the dev team really did come up with a solution that's just as good they should forget about making the game for a bit and just focus on selling their home brewed solution. If Improbable got a half a billion dollars and these guys can do it cheaper and at least as good then funding would not be a problem!
Also, remember... it was just in October that we have video of the SBS guys saying that SpatialOS could do everything they wanted... 2 months later we are told it can't, but not to worry because they already have re-created it?
It just doesn't make any sense...
FYI here is Caspien's original PR statement in the Kickstarter about SpatialOS:
This partnership has been in the works for a while now and answers the fundamental question people have been asking "How are you going to build a world this large, with a hundred thousands players, and all these never-before-seen features?!" The answer is SpatialOS.
SpatialOS will act as the fabric that our game is built on. It's the server technology that will allow us to support millions of entities in the world. Built first and foremost as a scalable, distributed operating system for games, SpatialOS means we don't have to spend time developing the things that generally take the most time when building a new MMO.
We don't have to worry about networking on the server, load balancing all the entities in the world, replication of entities across multiple server nodes, cross-process communication, collision detection of millions of entities, etc. In short, we don't have to worry about developing any of the technology that makes an MMO, an MMO.
This is an excellent point and speaks to one of the most significant hurdles SBS faces now. Though I should point out that just because SpatialOS received that much funding doesn't necessarily mean it is that hard to make, only that they did it first and have built a community around it. I do think that SBS should return to using the SpatialOS Unreal API but I also know that it would be possible for them to create their own if they put in the work and hired the expertise.
I don't expect anyone to see a couple people laid off and look at that as good news.
And I agree on some things. It irritates me that every single kickstarter game lies about their expected release date. Every single one does it. But in fairness I knew the minute I saw that date it isn't viable, and I was very open about that opinion.
And sure that might of happened with some games that failed, but it has also happened with games that succeeded. Like I've said in another thread, Deliverence was I think scheduled for December 2015 a long with CU. Both games are extremely late, but both games are also releasing soon too.
I get some of the apprehension toward kickstarter, but you know what irritates me even more? The same fuckin games constantly being released with new skins. Developers that waste millions of dollars on cinematics and advertising, while putting 0 effort or thought into design. Developers that don't listen to a single thing their community has to say, and have little to no interaction with their communities.
Maybe some of you are right. Maybe this game is a mistake. Maybe people are wasting money funding it, and maybe it never comes out, or isn't what it was suppose to be when it does come out. But I'd rather give my money to people who are willing to take risks in the industry than to buy the same re-released garbage that triple A companies shit out every 6 months. Believe it or not, a lot of CoE community are people who have serious doubts that they can pull this off. But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
I think he would have gotten a lot more sympathy if he didn't attack those who questioned the unreasonable timeline in the Kickstarter. Instead he challenged those who dared question it. He made silly statements about his gantt charts... blah blah...
Then when the delay was announced if he had been even slightly self-deprecating it would have been received so much better. If he had done something like shown his Gantt charts but turned them upside down with a smile and a wink... anything. Instead he just blamed the community for taking too much of his time asking questions and prospective employees for not understanding the great deal he was offering.
Remember... they key things he was questioned on:
1. The timeline... which we know was proven to be unrealistic 2. The budget... which we also know was way off 3. The fact that he would only need crowdfunding as seed money to attract an investor... which we know is not true and they needed waaaaaaay more money from the fans. 4. That the game would be made possible because of SpatialOS... which they dropped
Does some of the criticism go over the top. Absolutely. But honestly, I think it's for the most part... grounded in reality.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM CLOSE AND LAYOFF MORE STAFF
That is absolutely true to my core. I absolutely hated that I watched the same thing happen to Pathfinder Online. The echo Chamber there kept Ryan Dancy in a bubble and let him run the project right off a cliff. I listened to Lisa break down describing how she had to lay off almost the whole team. IT WAS FREAKING AVOIDABLE. Same here. It doesn't have to end in disaster. Everyone can keep their jobs... Caspien can buy back his dream land and build his wife a new house. But they simply have to start getting closer to reality. I just recently posted Caspien's words from Dec 2016 where he actually thought his community would be over a million right now.
It's great to dream big... but those dreams are wasted if they aren't grounded in reality. Read what I posted in The Way Forward thread. Some of that may not be the best answer... but at least it's a discussion about what can be done from here... in a realistic manner.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That's the thing I've come to believe over the course of watching this crowdfunded MMORPG debacle play out: the genre isn't dying. It's retreating back into its niche. I don't believe traditional MMORPG gameplay was ever something that held a lot of mainstream appeal. WoW was a flash in the pan, and it put the genre in the forefront for a while, but what has happened since? We've seen dev team after dev team cannibalize their content to offer it up at the altar of the microtransaction to attempt to increase the longevity of the game through slick marketing that adds very little depth, if any, to the game itself.
Games like CoE might be able to exist, but not until the industry recognizes the genre for what it is and stops trying to lump it in with other genres to attempt to make it look like it deserves a larger crowd than it does.
This genre is a niche. It's a nerdy one, one that takes more dedication than the average video game (just as tabletops took more dedication than the average board game). It was never supposed to be a major player in the industry, but with a lot of Skinner box technique application, it has bloated itself into something that's much more palatable to the mainstream. It lost much of its own soul to achieve it.
However, I also see a very dangerous situation for consumers with regards to crowdfunding, and the past years have indicated to me it's a poor fit for development of MMORPG titles. The best thing for the genre is to let go of the idea that MMORPGs are a 6v6 hero shooter genre that releases titles to tens of millions of customers and recognize that it's a massively multiplayer experience centered around the interaction of players in a virtual world, titles that release to mere millions. Then, recognize who the audience is that actually wants that experience, not just multiplayer with some character building thrown in. Because despite being relatively small, there are still a multitude of folks who will obviously pay extra money for a game that provides them an experience unlike anything they can get from any other genre.
In that environment, projects like these might thrive in a traditional business setup that went in with realistic expectations and a well thought-out business plan to sustain long-term retention from those who want that experience. I just don't think crowdfunding is the best way to go about forcing innovation onto the scene when there's still so much white noise and a whole lot of unrealistic expectations from the industry around what it means to be "successful".
That doesn't even touch on how the requirements of constant updates when crowdfunding leads to fan fatigue and/or over-hype.
I've been on the verge of typing nearly this exact thing on so many threads, but I can't bring myself to bother to lay it all out.
That's the thing I've come to believe over the course of watching this crowdfunded MMORPG debacle play out: the genre isn't dying. It's retreating back into its niche. I don't believe traditional MMORPG gameplay was ever something that held a lot of mainstream appeal. WoW was a flash in the pan, and it put the genre in the forefront for a while, but what has happened since? We've seen dev team after dev team cannibalize their content to offer it up at the altar of the microtransaction to attempt to increase the longevity of the game through slick marketing that adds very little depth, if any, to the game itself.
Games like CoE might be able to exist, but not until the industry recognizes the genre for what it is and stops trying to lump it in with other genres to attempt to make it look like it deserves a larger crowd than it does.
This genre is a niche. It's a nerdy one, one that takes more dedication than the average video game (just as tabletops took more dedication than the average board game). It was never supposed to be a major player in the industry, but with a lot of Skinner box technique application, it has bloated itself into something that's much more palatable to the mainstream. It lost much of its own soul to achieve it.
However, I also see a very dangerous situation for consumers with regards to crowdfunding, and the past years have indicated to me it's a poor fit for development of MMORPG titles. The best thing for the genre is to let go of the idea that MMORPGs are a 6v6 hero shooter genre that releases titles to tens of millions of customers and recognize that it's a massively multiplayer experience centered around the interaction of players in a virtual world, titles that release to mere millions. Then, recognize who the audience is that actually wants that experience, not just multiplayer with some character building thrown in. Because despite being relatively small, there are still a multitude of folks who will obviously pay extra money for a game that provides them an experience unlike anything they can get from any other genre.
In that environment, projects like these might thrive in a traditional business setup that went in with realistic expectations and a well thought-out business plan to sustain long-term retention from those who want that experience. I just don't think crowdfunding is the best way to go about forcing innovation onto the scene when there's still so much white noise and a whole lot of unrealistic expectations from the industry around what it means to be "successful".
That doesn't even touch on how the requirements of constant updates when crowdfunding leads to fan fatigue and/or over-hype.
At first, I had mixed feelings about your post. I think that crowdfunding is absolutely fantastic for indie devs because it gives hope to the underdogs and upstarts with great ideas and no money or marketable experience. As an indie developer myself, I can personally tell you how difficult it is to make a game and cannot stress enough how going the "traditional business" route is rarely ever successful for indie game developers in general.
However, MMOs are a complicated, unwieldy beast to develop and there's a good reason that the first piece of advice nearly any dev will give another is don't make one unless you have the budget. They just require so much more money than most understand and when games do manage to gather impressive funding in the millions it is still small in comparison to what is really needed, even though the crowd that funded it probably won't understand that.
Still, without crowdfunding we wouldn't get a chance to see some of the new and even genre-changing ideas come out of indie studios and if the funding is really only good enough to secure VC support, then at least the game gets made at the end of the day.
That's the thing I've come to believe over the course of watching this crowdfunded MMORPG debacle play out: the genre isn't dying. It's retreating back into its niche. I don't believe traditional MMORPG gameplay was ever something that held a lot of mainstream appeal. WoW was a flash in the pan, and it put the genre in the forefront for a while, but what has happened since? We've seen dev team after dev team cannibalize their content to offer it up at the altar of the microtransaction to attempt to increase the longevity of the game through slick marketing that adds very little depth, if any, to the game itself.
Games like CoE might be able to exist, but not until the industry recognizes the genre for what it is and stops trying to lump it in with other genres to attempt to make it look like it deserves a larger crowd than it does.
This genre is a niche. It's a nerdy one, one that takes more dedication than the average video game (just as tabletops took more dedication than the average board game). It was never supposed to be a major player in the industry, but with a lot of Skinner box technique application, it has bloated itself into something that's much more palatable to the mainstream. It lost much of its own soul to achieve it.
However, I also see a very dangerous situation for consumers with regards to crowdfunding, and the past years have indicated to me it's a poor fit for development of MMORPG titles. The best thing for the genre is to let go of the idea that MMORPGs are a 6v6 hero shooter genre that releases titles to tens of millions of customers and recognize that it's a massively multiplayer experience centered around the interaction of players in a virtual world, titles that release to mere millions. Then, recognize who the audience is that actually wants that experience, not just multiplayer with some character building thrown in. Because despite being relatively small, there are still a multitude of folks who will obviously pay extra money for a game that provides them an experience unlike anything they can get from any other genre.
In that environment, projects like these might thrive in a traditional business setup that went in with realistic expectations and a well thought-out business plan to sustain long-term retention from those who want that experience. I just don't think crowdfunding is the best way to go about forcing innovation onto the scene when there's still so much white noise and a whole lot of unrealistic expectations from the industry around what it means to be "successful".
That doesn't even touch on how the requirements of constant updates when crowdfunding leads to fan fatigue and/or over-hype.
Really though man? You think MMO's are niche? It seems like a genre that has a never ending possibility to grow IMO. I don't think a success like WoW will ever happen again, but I definitely think players want a good MMO. There's just not many out there that offer a different experience.
I think the bigger problem is producers aren't in the game to take risks, they're there to make money. Which I'm not ignorant, I understand that video games when it's all said and done is a business. But 99% of the market is now just rinse and repeat formulas, and 0 innovation happening. I'm a frequent theater goer, and you see the exact same stuff happening in the movie industry right now. Rinse and repeat formulas to make a profit. I think in reality it's not that MMO's are niche, it's they've been trying to copy WoW for 10 years.
You can say the same stuff about it being nerdy, and niche about MOBA's. When I started playing DOTA 1, no one i knew that wasn't a 110 pound Korean nerd knew what DOTA was. I don't even think the term MOBA existed yet. But then LOL came out and revolutionized the market with a great payment model, and modern day graphics, and boom now mobas are the most played genre in the market.
And this is what I hope for CoE. Games like UO, WURM and Eve are very niche, but have a strong fan base. But maybe, just maybe. A game could come out and provide that experience to a wider audience, by being a current gen game, and not something outdated on release. Maybe a new payment model will attract people. Again no one thought MOBA's were going to be the next big thing when DOTA 1 was the only MOBA out. I at least never saw that shit coming.
I still think the jury is still out on whether kickstarter games fair in the future. I don't think people will care that Crowfall or CU come out super late if they end up being amazing games.
The problem is what choice do we have man? Like honestly I'm all ears. If we don't crowd fund, then what? I mean I don't see anything but a bunch of shit coming out of triple A titles anymore. Literally the only games I'm even somewhat interested in, are almost all from kickstarter.
I don't know maybe you're right man. Maybe kickstarter when it's all said and done will be realized as a giant failure. But we'll see what happens. I haven't lost hope yet.
I don't think they are creating their own spatial OS, they are using multiple different things to substitute Spatial OS. Yes some of the back end they had to do themselves, but they aren't going to be making their own cloud server exactly lol. I was told the things they were gonna be using instead, but tbh I don't remember what they were called. I'm not an extremely tech savvy guy.
Anyways I'm not the right person to talk to about this. When I have concerns like this, I go to other members of the CoE community that are in related fields and ask what they think, and they seemed to be okay with it. If someone with similar expertise has a reason for concern, then I'm all ears.
My point is simply this. Improbable, the guys behind SpatialOS just got over a half a billion dollars in funding to back their product. If it were as easy as pulling some off the shelf open source programs and having a few guys spend some time tying them together why would SpatialOS have gotten that funding. In the KS campaign itself, SpatialOS was billed as the fabric the game would be built on. If the dev team really did come up with a solution that's just as good they should forget about making the game for a bit and just focus on selling their home brewed solution. If Improbable got a half a billion dollars and these guys can do it cheaper and at least as good then funding would not be a problem!
Also, remember... it was just in October that we have video of the SBS guys saying that SpatialOS could do everything they wanted... 2 months later we are told it can't, but not to worry because they already have re-created it?
It just doesn't make any sense...
FYI here is Caspien's original PR statement in the Kickstarter about SpatialOS:
This partnership has been in the works for a while now and answers the fundamental question people have been asking "How are you going to build a world this large, with a hundred thousands players, and all these never-before-seen features?!" The answer is SpatialOS.
SpatialOS will act as the fabric that our game is built on. It's the server technology that will allow us to support millions of entities in the world. Built first and foremost as a scalable, distributed operating system for games, SpatialOS means we don't have to spend time developing the things that generally take the most time when building a new MMO.
We don't have to worry about networking on the server, load balancing all the entities in the world, replication of entities across multiple server nodes, cross-process communication, collision detection of millions of entities, etc. In short, we don't have to worry about developing any of the technology that makes an MMO, an MMO.
Well in fairness, Spatial OS got most of their funding from a gigantic robotics company, and not from gaming. And so far to my knowledge, the only game that is actually like playable, that runs spatial OS is WOrlds Adrift. And from what I've heard it's been a disaster. But again. I can't really speak to much of this stuff. It's beyond me. I can only trust the people in my kingdom and community that understand this stuff, and they all seem to think it's all legit.
Here I'll post Caspians exact comment and my complaint from the discord. Unfortunately my conversations with other members of the community were all on voice, so there is no record of them.
Me - I'm just worried because I feel like Spatial OS was kind of hyped as this thing that was going to allow you to be able to make the game on a limited budget and a limited team.
I'm not a tech guy, so when im sold on spatial OS being this really important thing... I trust you guys
but now im suppose to believe it really doesn't matter
and it makes me worried, that's all.
Caspian - Ah. AshLarry. Perfectly understandable.
When we first started building CoE back in 2016, I'd been working for several years as a Service Oriented Architect for Microsoft, and was already well versed in builing distributed systems. In fact, I'd been building a version myself for CoE in C#. However, when I saw a video of Herman talking about SpatialOS, I realized they'd already solved a lot of the problems we were going to need to solve.
It was a great option, and the idea is that it would allow a small team like ours to be able to focus on the game instead of the platform.
However, throughout 2017 we found we needed to solve the problems in a different way. That didn't mean re-inventing the wheel and writing all of the solutions ourself, but it did mean needing to find other solutions.
Fortunately, in the last couple of years Container technology has improved, and we hired several people last year that were even more experienced than I at building MMOs. Collectively, we were able to replace the difference components of SpatialOS with other Free and OpenSource solutions.
There's nothing mystical or magical here. We simply took the one-stop-shop that is SpatialOS, and gradually replaced with a series of other freely available solutions.
Then after that some people asked about the exact tech they were now using.
Caspian - I'm glad. We keep no secrets about what we've switched to, either.
For very fast, reliable communication between our services we're using RabbitMQ. That's the same protocol used by the Stock Exchange I believe. It can process millions of messages a second.
For launching, re-launching, and load-balancing our services we're using Docker in Swarm mode, and will likely use Docker Cloud, Kubernetes, or DC/OS for production deployments.
We're using PostgreSQL database for our SQL, NoSQL, and Spatial queries now, along with a service we've written to orchestrate which worker is responsible for your physics based on the spatial query from PostgreSQL.
Now if someone with enough knowledge about this topic can explain why this is BS or wrong, I'm all ears. But from the sources I have, it's all legit.
I don't expect anyone to see a couple people laid off and look at that as good news.
And I agree on some things. It irritates me that every single kickstarter game lies about their expected release date. Every single one does it. But in fairness I knew the minute I saw that date it isn't viable, and I was very open about that opinion.
And sure that might of happened with some games that failed, but it has also happened with games that succeeded. Like I've said in another thread, Deliverence was I think scheduled for December 2015 a long with CU. Both games are extremely late, but both games are also releasing soon too.
I get some of the apprehension toward kickstarter, but you know what irritates me even more? The same fuckin games constantly being released with new skins. Developers that waste millions of dollars on cinematics and advertising, while putting 0 effort or thought into design. Developers that don't listen to a single thing their community has to say, and have little to no interaction with their communities.
Maybe some of you are right. Maybe this game is a mistake. Maybe people are wasting money funding it, and maybe it never comes out, or isn't what it was suppose to be when it does come out. But I'd rather give my money to people who are willing to take risks in the industry than to buy the same re-released garbage that triple A companies shit out every 6 months. Believe it or not, a lot of CoE community are people who have serious doubts that they can pull this off. But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
I think he would have gotten a lot more sympathy if he didn't attack those who questioned the unreasonable timeline in the Kickstarter. Instead he challenged those who dared question it. He made silly statements about his gantt charts... blah blah...
Then when the delay was announced if he had been even slightly self-deprecating it would have been received so much better. If he had done something like shown his Gantt charts but turned them upside down with a smile and a wink... anything. Instead he just blamed the community for taking too much of his time asking questions and prospective employees for not understanding the great deal he was offering.
Remember... they key things he was questioned on:
1. The timeline... which we know was proven to be unrealistic 2. The budget... which we also know was way off 3. The fact that he would only need crowdfunding as seed money to attract an investor... which we know is not true and they needed waaaaaaay more money from the fans. 4. That the game would be made possible because of SpatialOS... which they dropped
Does some of the criticism go over the top. Absolutely. But honestly, I think it's for the most part... grounded in reality.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM CLOSE AND LAYOFF MORE STAFF
That is absolutely true to my core. I absolutely hated that I watched the same thing happen to Pathfinder Online. The echo Chamber there kept Ryan Dancy in a bubble and let him run the project right off a cliff. I listened to Lisa break down describing how she had to lay off almost the whole team. IT WAS FREAKING AVOIDABLE. Same here. It doesn't have to end in disaster. Everyone can keep their jobs... Caspien can buy back his dream land and build his wife a new house. But they simply have to start getting closer to reality. I just recently posted Caspien's words from Dec 2016 where he actually thought his community would be over a million right now.
It's great to dream big... but those dreams are wasted if they aren't grounded in reality. Read what I posted in The Way Forward thread. Some of that may not be the best answer... but at least it's a discussion about what can be done from here... in a realistic manner.
Yeah he can be unreasonable at times. I'm not gonna defend caspian for everything he's said or done. And I do think he can be a bit prickly sometimes. We always laugh because he'll go to us and ask the community for our opinion, and when we reject the idea, or don't go they way he wanted us to he'll get mad at us lol. And I understand being upset about the dates being way off, but I think 95% of the backers at least knew this wasn't possible. And they ended up using the same excuse every developer from kickstarter uses. "Kickstarter requires a date so this was more of a place holder". In reality most of us don't care. If the game is 4 years late who cares, as long as they deliver. And even people who don't believe in this team, and think it's a giant inevitable failure I think you can agree. IF they deliver on what they say they can do then who cares right?
And I'd rather have a dev that is a bit of an asshole sometimes and constantly wants feedback, and asks the community what they want then a director that hides from their community and doesn't do a damn thing with their feedback.
We have those echo chambers in CoE but I avidly stay out of them. In the comment I sent to you asking caspian about Spatial OS, I was actually getting shit on by a few community members that I like to call fanboys, that will jump on anyone who has a simple critique.
Maybe your right, but I still am hopeful. If this game is able to deliver on half of what they say then it'll be an awesome game IMO. And I'm willing to deal with the bullshit in hopes of a completed product.
Comments
Well I'll be damned. I might actually be getting somewhere with some of you. Told you he's the greatest developer ever to walk the earth.
(obviously joking on that last one)
Here I'll even delete my snarky comment about ya.
And before you say it, I know... You don't care what I say about you. Just take it as a sign of good will.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But again. I'll try to do better at the snarky comments, and insults.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I apologize to the other posters I have been mean to or offended. I will do better in the future, and try my best to not add/create anymore toxicity.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It has discussed development, monetization, game play, time tables....everything about everything about all the games that have come through here for years.
The site has seen enough for all of us to have developed a pretty good idea what it takes for a studio to put out a game. We have seen what happens when corners are cut. We have seen what happens when there are layoffs. We have seen what happens when developers chose the wrong engine. Etc Etc. None of it is new and we aren't ignorant to what it means. These are all signs of trouble and have ended with canceled projects. The Repopulation, EQNext, Dominus, The list goes on.
The ideas that "development has stabilized" after layoffs or that they can create their own substitute for "SpatialOS" are absurd.
Anyways I'm not the right person to talk to about this. When I have concerns like this, I go to other members of the CoE community that are in related fields and ask what they think, and they seemed to be okay with it. If someone with similar expertise has a reason for concern, then I'm all ears.
Now, the way I have rolled has always been, I don't buy a game till there is a game, I don't play a game till it goes live, and I play the game for how it is now, not how it's supposed to be in the future. That is just how I roll.
This has nothing to do with CoE directly or any issues of risk-adverse. Even if this game was being backed by a AAA publisher and being made by a established and reliable development studio, with a 100% Chance of going live within the year, I'd still wait till it went live to buy it.
With that said. We all know that none of you want to take the risk that this Caspian guy is, because it's just that.. a risk. It's not some flowery walk in the park where people dolt money on you with no responsibilities on your part.. so. with that put out.. can we dispense with that illusion now?
And I agree on some things. It irritates me that every single kickstarter game lies about their expected release date. Every single one does it. But in fairness I knew the minute I saw that date it isn't viable, and I was very open about that opinion.
And sure that might of happened with some games that failed, but it has also happened with games that succeeded. Like I've said in another thread, Deliverence was I think scheduled for December 2015 a long with CU. Both games are extremely late, but both games are also releasing soon too.
I get some of the apprehension toward kickstarter, but you know what irritates me even more? The same fuckin games constantly being released with new skins. Developers that waste millions of dollars on cinematics and advertising, while putting 0 effort or thought into design. Developers that don't listen to a single thing their community has to say, and have little to no interaction with their communities.
Maybe some of you are right. Maybe this game is a mistake. Maybe people are wasting money funding it, and maybe it never comes out, or isn't what it was suppose to be when it does come out. But I'd rather give my money to people who are willing to take risks in the industry than to buy the same re-released garbage that triple A companies shit out every 6 months. Believe it or not, a lot of CoE community are people who have serious doubts that they can pull this off. But they're willing to give money to them, because they are so frustrated and tired of the dying MMO genre.
I mean. it begs the question, if you don't even play, what you are doing here?
BTW. I am enjoying BDO, and Eternal Crusade or GW2 ... thanks to that energy system.
Games like CoE might be able to exist, but not until the industry recognizes the genre for what it is and stops trying to lump it in with other genres to attempt to make it look like it deserves a larger crowd than it does.
This genre is a niche. It's a nerdy one, one that takes more dedication than the average video game (just as tabletops took more dedication than the average board game). It was never supposed to be a major player in the industry, but with a lot of Skinner box technique application, it has bloated itself into something that's much more palatable to the mainstream. It lost much of its own soul to achieve it.
However, I also see a very dangerous situation for consumers with regards to crowdfunding, and the past years have indicated to me it's a poor fit for development of MMORPG titles. The best thing for the genre is to let go of the idea that MMORPGs are a 6v6 hero shooter genre that releases titles to tens of millions of customers and recognize that it's a massively multiplayer experience centered around the interaction of players in a virtual world, titles that release to mere millions. Then, recognize who the audience is that actually wants that experience, not just multiplayer with some character building thrown in. Because despite being relatively small, there are still a multitude of folks who will obviously pay extra money for a game that provides them an experience unlike anything they can get from any other genre.
In that environment, projects like these might thrive in a traditional business setup that went in with realistic expectations and a well thought-out business plan to sustain long-term retention from those who want that experience. I just don't think crowdfunding is the best way to go about forcing innovation onto the scene when there's still so much white noise and a whole lot of unrealistic expectations from the industry around what it means to be "successful".
That doesn't even touch on how the requirements of constant updates when crowdfunding leads to fan fatigue and/or over-hype.
Also, remember... it was just in October that we have video of the SBS guys saying that SpatialOS could do everything they wanted... 2 months later we are told it can't, but not to worry because they already have re-created it?
It just doesn't make any sense...
FYI here is Caspien's original PR statement in the Kickstarter about SpatialOS:
This partnership has been in the works for a while now and answers the fundamental question people have been asking "How are you going to build a world this large, with a hundred thousands players, and all these never-before-seen features?!" The answer is SpatialOS.
SpatialOS will act as the fabric that our game is built on. It's the server technology that will allow us to support millions of entities in the world. Built first and foremost as a scalable, distributed operating system for games, SpatialOS means we don't have to spend time developing the things that generally take the most time when building a new MMO.
We don't have to worry about networking on the server, load balancing all the entities in the world, replication of entities across multiple server nodes, cross-process communication, collision detection of millions of entities, etc. In short, we don't have to worry about developing any of the technology that makes an MMO, an MMO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Then when the delay was announced if he had been even slightly self-deprecating it would have been received so much better. If he had done something like shown his Gantt charts but turned them upside down with a smile and a wink... anything. Instead he just blamed the community for taking too much of his time asking questions and prospective employees for not understanding the great deal he was offering.
Remember... they key things he was questioned on:
1. The timeline... which we know was proven to be unrealistic
2. The budget... which we also know was way off
3. The fact that he would only need crowdfunding as seed money to attract an investor... which we know is not true and they needed waaaaaaay more money from the fans.
4. That the game would be made possible because of SpatialOS... which they dropped
Does some of the criticism go over the top. Absolutely. But honestly, I think it's for the most part... grounded in reality.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM CLOSE AND LAYOFF MORE STAFF
That is absolutely true to my core. I absolutely hated that I watched the same thing happen to Pathfinder Online. The echo Chamber there kept Ryan Dancy in a bubble and let him run the project right off a cliff. I listened to Lisa break down describing how she had to lay off almost the whole team. IT WAS FREAKING AVOIDABLE. Same here. It doesn't have to end in disaster. Everyone can keep their jobs... Caspien can buy back his dream land and build his wife a new house. But they simply have to start getting closer to reality. I just recently posted Caspien's words from Dec 2016 where he actually thought his community would be over a million right now.
It's great to dream big... but those dreams are wasted if they aren't grounded in reality. Read what I posted in The Way Forward thread. Some of that may not be the best answer... but at least it's a discussion about what can be done from here... in a realistic manner.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Could not agree more and thanks for typing it up!
However, MMOs are a complicated, unwieldy beast to develop and there's a good reason that the first piece of advice nearly any dev will give another is don't make one unless you have the budget. They just require so much more money than most understand and when games do manage to gather impressive funding in the millions it is still small in comparison to what is really needed, even though the crowd that funded it probably won't understand that.
Still, without crowdfunding we wouldn't get a chance to see some of the new and even genre-changing ideas come out of indie studios and if the funding is really only good enough to secure VC support, then at least the game gets made at the end of the day.
I think the bigger problem is producers aren't in the game to take risks, they're there to make money. Which I'm not ignorant, I understand that video games when it's all said and done is a business. But 99% of the market is now just rinse and repeat formulas, and 0 innovation happening. I'm a frequent theater goer, and you see the exact same stuff happening in the movie industry right now. Rinse and repeat formulas to make a profit. I think in reality it's not that MMO's are niche, it's they've been trying to copy WoW for 10 years.
You can say the same stuff about it being nerdy, and niche about MOBA's. When I started playing DOTA 1, no one i knew that wasn't a 110 pound Korean nerd knew what DOTA was. I don't even think the term MOBA existed yet. But then LOL came out and revolutionized the market with a great payment model, and modern day graphics, and boom now mobas are the most played genre in the market.
And this is what I hope for CoE. Games like UO, WURM and Eve are very niche, but have a strong fan base. But maybe, just maybe. A game could come out and provide that experience to a wider audience, by being a current gen game, and not something outdated on release. Maybe a new payment model will attract people. Again no one thought MOBA's were going to be the next big thing when DOTA 1 was the only MOBA out. I at least never saw that shit coming.
I still think the jury is still out on whether kickstarter games fair in the future. I don't think people will care that Crowfall or CU come out super late if they end up being amazing games.
The problem is what choice do we have man? Like honestly I'm all ears. If we don't crowd fund, then what? I mean I don't see anything but a bunch of shit coming out of triple A titles anymore. Literally the only games I'm even somewhat interested in, are almost all from kickstarter.
I don't know maybe you're right man. Maybe kickstarter when it's all said and done will be realized as a giant failure. But we'll see what happens. I haven't lost hope yet.
Here I'll post Caspians exact comment and my complaint from the discord. Unfortunately my conversations with other members of the community were all on voice, so there is no record of them.
Caspian - Ah. AshLarry. Perfectly understandable. When we first started building CoE back in 2016, I'd been working for several years as a Service Oriented Architect for Microsoft, and was already well versed in builing distributed systems. In fact, I'd been building a version myself for CoE in C#. However, when I saw a video of Herman talking about SpatialOS, I realized they'd already solved a lot of the problems we were going to need to solve. It was a great option, and the idea is that it would allow a small team like ours to be able to focus on the game instead of the platform. However, throughout 2017 we found we needed to solve the problems in a different way. That didn't mean re-inventing the wheel and writing all of the solutions ourself, but it did mean needing to find other solutions. Fortunately, in the last couple of years Container technology has improved, and we hired several people last year that were even more experienced than I at building MMOs. Collectively, we were able to replace the difference components of SpatialOS with other Free and OpenSource solutions. There's nothing mystical or magical here. We simply took the one-stop-shop that is SpatialOS, and gradually replaced with a series of other freely available solutions.
Then after that some people asked about the exact tech they were now using.
Caspian - I'm glad. We keep no secrets about what we've switched to, either. For very fast, reliable communication between our services we're using RabbitMQ. That's the same protocol used by the Stock Exchange I believe. It can process millions of messages a second. For launching, re-launching, and load-balancing our services we're using Docker in Swarm mode, and will likely use Docker Cloud, Kubernetes, or DC/OS for production deployments. We're using PostgreSQL database for our SQL, NoSQL, and Spatial queries now, along with a service we've written to orchestrate which worker is responsible for your physics based on the spatial query from PostgreSQL.
Now if someone with enough knowledge about this topic can explain why this is BS or wrong, I'm all ears. But from the sources I have, it's all legit.
And I'd rather have a dev that is a bit of an asshole sometimes and constantly wants feedback, and asks the community what they want then a director that hides from their community and doesn't do a damn thing with their feedback.
We have those echo chambers in CoE but I avidly stay out of them. In the comment I sent to you asking caspian about Spatial OS, I was actually getting shit on by a few community members that I like to call fanboys, that will jump on anyone who has a simple critique.
Maybe your right, but I still am hopeful. If this game is able to deliver on half of what they say then it'll be an awesome game IMO. And I'm willing to deal with the bullshit in hopes of a completed product.