Because that is the point here. It is no more than people playing self-righteous, all-knowing armchair developers.
People still make bold claims, conjectures and even dare to question competence and tell others how they should run development and their company.
Based on what? Uneducated eyes, false reasoning, lack of any required proficiency, data or just general clue about industry or projects of this size...right....
That's funny because the way I recall it, you're usually the one who doesn't understand how a development cycle works. You've made that quite evident in the past.
Yes, so often people accusing others of not being qualified to make "opinions" about game development has never shown any indication they are qualified to make such judgements on games, or anything else for that matter.
Don't look for logical thinking, rationality, or conventional wisdom, you won't find it from some folks.
Its their way of saying they have nothing to counter your argument, (except perhaps an ill used emoticon) and when it happens just know you've yet again won the argument.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I started out only making points as to why I have doubts about this project, even though it sounds like something I would very much enjoy.
There were a few decent explanations and counters, but mostly it seemed to have devolved into obvious backers or pro-project factions taking partial quotes and trying to turn them into ad hominems.
While it does take the focus further from the actual subject of the thread (that's trolling, by the way, purple one), it doesn't really put the community that seems to be in fairly dire straits monetarily in a very good light to outsiders. The only person who has even made any sort of case is the one that many were calling a troll in the first place.
If you do want to continue with the ad homs I am more than happy to play along though.
Your first mistake was responding to him.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
My LOL count was relatively low anyways. It could use a little bump.
Thing is, I think the premise of this game is interesting. Even without the SpatialOS platform it is different enough from what's out there to potentially draw me in. My problem is with the execution. If I haven't been clear , I don't really believe they can pull it off given how things are heading.
I was ready to be swayed on that, at least back towards center, but given the responses I've seen so far I can pretty comfortably say that, to me, it appears that nobody else really believes they can either. Except maybe mystichaze. There seems to be some true hope there.
frostymug said: One does not have to be a trash collector to know trash.
Your right, you don't need to be trash collector to know trash when you see it, that works in all directions..
*You're
I did forget to mention partial quotes as part of the whole when the bunker mentality generally devolves into ad hominems and straw man arguments. Thanks for the reminder.
Also, great job at offering a counter to the discussion you decided to invoke. I took you're your angle and ran with it. Seems like all I got was a raw ego response. Well done, Hefty. Or is it Glad?
Well, you subtle digs side, I can only offer you my respect, as your 20 years ago, experience being a disposable QA tester that was so humiliating debasing that you don't even talk about it anymore makes you more the closest thing that the pessimist on this topic have to an actual game developer or someone with any working knowledge of the industry. So Kudos, you have that going for you at least.
Noting but respect.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Because that is the point here. It is no more than people playing self-righteous, all-knowing armchair developers.
People still make bold claims, conjectures and even dare to question competence and tell others how they should run development and their company.
Based on what? Uneducated eyes, false reasoning, lack of any required proficiency, data or just general clue about industry or projects of this size...right....
Didn't you catch, frostymug was a QA tester in the 90's, and that means he's an industry insider, and has every right to tell a developer how they should make a game. We should all just bow down to his vast and unquestioning knowledge of the field.
Slapshot1188 said: Are most people now comfortable that he will deliver SOMETHING? Yes.
This is everything.. because at one time, they weren't, just like all the other games in development.
If I would fault CoE for anything, it would be not hiding behind a nice sanitized PR face, which seems to be what has drawn all the butthurt ire.
Except about 2 yrs post KSer I was invited to try the CU pre alpha, and I had been seeing videos of the game for 6 months.
It was really rough of course, and just an early engine test with placeholders.
So far COE has much less to show than Ashes which started like last summer.
SBS / Caspian remind me so much of Aventurine / Tasos (?)
All they need to do is relocate the studio to Greece or offshore some of the development to Manilla to make the parallel complete.
Running Pre-alpha events or making pointless videos for the public are just a waste of time and money, both of which bad things to squander when your company is on a tight budget.
They are better served right now to spend their time and money on making the game then wasting it on doing some dog and pony show trying to appease the thankless.
You do realize most (not all) pre alpha events are for the purpose of testing the game and not a "dog and pony show" right?
I mean I suppose you could just not do any testing at all and then release the game and then deal with the fallout of a game breaking bug that prevents people from logging in because you decided it wasn't worth your time to do a dog and pony show.
You do realize that most companies hire or outsource a professional QA team to test their game, people like frostymug. or maybe you don't. Which would make his cred lost on you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If you read the thread carefully, all you'll read are logical contradictions and a lot of misspellings from the CoE fangirls.
I have to admit, one of the best responses I've read was from slapshot where he responded to the argument of P2W not existing based upon the fact that all items can be obtained in game with just one sentence: "The possibility of losing an advantage that I have bought does not forgo the fact I had and can still buy an advantage" (not exact wording).
I think the arguments now reflect on the topic logical fallacy than actual oversights for the game.
All I can say is, if you believe that making up new labels and euphemisms like P2Build for clear P2W elements is gonna stop the critical from noticing a low IQ tactic like that, then I guess I wouldn't quit my footlocker job any time soon if I were you.
No, not blinded by the light. I know what side I'm on, and I don't play flip flop based on emotional garbage. It's quite obvious these trolls are and have been attempting to make CU look bad for the sake of their clown fiesta COE. How many times does it need to be made evident?
As far as I'm concerned Walsh is the newest DSmart on the block attempting underhanded publicity with a merry few band of idiots. I'm perfectly confident CU will come out with a product for their backers, so I'll continue to defend it. I can't say the same about COE, and given the tactics I don't think playing the "neutral" guy is going to do any good at this point, unless we want to waste time taking these dupe accounts seriously...
Ya know, when we disagreed, if CU could pull off the sub model, I let it go and walked away, not because I don't think I am 100% right, but because it is a really uncouth move to keep jabbing at the things people have put some hope into.
Anyone knows that It's inherent nature of people to defend what they like, or defend their choice to support something, So it's natural that people who have invested into this game will defend it and their choice to support it.
And nothing changes the fact that it's a real shit move to keep hounding on those people.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If anything this thread has exposed the disfunction in both the COE and MMORPG communities.
Nothing wrong with this forum, they know we call developers on their bull. They may not appreciate that we often call it out before they have a chance to write a story about it, but in the end if they had a problem with it, they'd say so.
Not everyone who took it upon themselves to throw a bit of mud on COE in this thread does so for every game. In fact most of us support many games. The thing is lots of us have been around here for almost 17 years in one form or another, and not only this forum but many.
That's a lot of time to learn how to spot the bad eggs, and why they spoil.. Also, despite what others may have you believe, some of us do actually work in this industry for a living...
No, not blinded by the light. I know what side I'm on, and I don't play flip flop based on emotional garbage. It's quite obvious these trolls are and have been attempting to make CU look bad for the sake of their clown fiesta COE. How many times does it need to be made evident?
As far as I'm concerned Walsh is the newest DSmart on the block attempting underhanded publicity with a merry few band of idiots. I'm perfectly confident CU will come out with a product for their backers, so I'll continue to defend it. I can't say the same about COE, and given the tactics I don't think playing the "neutral" guy is going to do any good at this point, unless we want to waste time taking these dupe accounts seriously...
Ya know, when we disagreed, if CU could pull off the sub model, I let it go and walked away, not because I don't think I am 100% right, but because it is a really uncouth move to keep jabbing at the things people have put some hope into.
Anyone knows that It's inherent nature of people to defend what they like, or defend their choice to support something, So it's natural that people who have invested into this game will defend it and their choice to support it.
And nothing changes the fact that it's a real shit move to keep hounding on those people.
I agree, so can you please tell your friend in discord to stop making new accounts and posting negative things here about CU? We all know he's a COE backer who's desperate for people to spend cash on the game he's chosen to shill for.
If you notice I was polite to you when you were being reasonable. That's because I don't mind constructive criticism, and I was also one of the first fans/backers to say Virginia was a terrible idea... I also said subscription games don't do as well on Steam, which is a fact at the current moment. That could change, we don't know and I'm open to find out. I'm not that worried though, if it's fun people will pay for it.
Good luck with your continued straw grasping if you choose.
If anything this thread has exposed the disfunction in both the COE and MMORPG communities.
Nothing wrong with this forum, they know we call developers on their bull. They may not appreciate that we often call it out before they have a chance to write a story about it, but in the end if they had a problem with it, they'd say so.
Not everyone who took it upon themselves to throw a bit of mud on COE in this thread does so for every game. In fact most of us support many games. The thing is lots of us have been around here for almost 17 years in one form or another, and not only this forum but many.
That's a lot of time to learn how to spot the bad eggs, and why they spoil.. Also, despite what others may have you believe, some of us do actually work in this industry for a living...
I don't mean that the people who frequent these forums don't understand what they're talking about, far from it. Having exposure to this content for so long will make you more of an expert than most who do it for a living if they don't also have the same amount of experience taking in other viewpoints and other games. The problem is that it often leads to a certain close-mindedness and unwillingness to accept valid points or acknowledge nuances if it might mean agreeing with the "opposition". It's the same phenomenon found everywhere really, it's just a shame that people can't learn to accept that even people you disagree with can have good points and there's no need to personally attack people to try to get your own point across.
Realizer said: 17 years in one form or another, and not only this forum but many.
That's a lot of time to learn how to spot the bad eggs, and why they spoil..
Yeah I always wonder why these people feel that blind faith is something good.
I mean every few years someone will make wild and crazy promises about the next big MMO developed by an indie company.
Why are people ignoring all that we have learned in the last 20 years and still fall for the false prophets?
Hope is a powerful motivator, but it takes effort to make hope a reality. Sadly effort has been a lost cause in this industry since companies figured out you can make millions with copy/paste.
I agree, so can you please tell your friend in discord to stop making new accounts and posting negative things here about CU? We all know he's a COE backer who's desperate for people to spend cash on the game he's chosen to shill for.
You assume I know these people or that they are my friends. I'll just chock that up to a wrong prediction on your part.. hopefully your list won't grow too long.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If anything this thread has exposed the disfunction in both the COE and MMORPG communities.
Nothing wrong with this forum, they know we call developers on their bull. They may not appreciate that we often call it out before they have a chance to write a story about it, but in the end if they had a problem with it, they'd say so.
Not everyone who took it upon themselves to throw a bit of mud on COE in this thread does so for every game. In fact most of us support many games. The thing is lots of us have been around here for almost 17 years in one form or another, and not only this forum but many.
That's a lot of time to learn how to spot the bad eggs, and why they spoil.. Also, despite what others may have you believe, some of us do actually work in this industry for a living...
I don't mean that the people who frequent these forums don't understand what they're talking about, far from it. Having exposure to this content for so long will make you more of an expert than most who do it for a living if they don't also have the same amount of experience taking in other viewpoints and other games. The problem is that it often leads to a certain close-mindedness and unwillingness to accept valid points or acknowledge nuances if it might mean agreeing with the "opposition". It's the same phenomenon found everywhere really, it's just a shame that people can't learn to accept that even people you disagree with can have good points and there's no need to personally attack people to try to get your own point across.
I think I've agreed with @Kyleran in this thread more times than in the last 3 or more years. So there's gotta be a bright side there somewhere.
Jokes aside, I agree with what you're saying; it makes it difficult though when you have people who post negative things on projects they don't even care about simply because it's similar. Especially when those troublemakers basically accuse us of myopia, all while not understanding the full picture themselves.It tends to set up a us vs them dynamic.
Overall it's a shame some developers see other games as hostile competition instead of a reason to be better themselves.
frostymug said: Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
That is the crux here, there isn't.
They are in early development which means all the works goes towards backend - a part you, as a user don't see. The fact that the game is very different in design and thus in development terms does not help much either.
And when you add lack of technical/management savvyness, you get plenty of fuel for trolling...therefore threads like this one.
Right, because they already built so much "back end" on SpatialOS.........oh wait. No they didn't.
frostymug said: Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
That is the crux here, there isn't.
They are in early development which means all the works goes towards backend - a part you, as a user don't see. The fact that the game is very different in design and thus in development terms does not help much either.
And when you add lack of technical/management savvyness, you get plenty of fuel for trolling...therefore threads like this one.
Right, because they already built so much "back end" on SpatialOS.........oh wait. No they didn't.
Back end, isn't that the part they talk out of? Because it seems very much in use
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
frostymug said: Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
That is the crux here, there isn't.
They are in early development which means all the works goes towards backend - a part you, as a user don't see. The fact that the game is very different in design and thus in development terms does not help much either.
And when you add lack of technical/management savvyness, you get plenty of fuel for trolling...therefore threads like this one.
Right, because they already built so much "back end" on SpatialOS.........oh wait. No they didn't.
Back end, isn't that the part they talk out of? Because it seems very much in use
frostymug said: Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
That is the crux here, there isn't.
They are in early development which means all the works goes towards backend - a part you, as a user don't see. The fact that the game is very different in design and thus in development terms does not help much either.
And when you add lack of technical/management savvyness, you get plenty of fuel for trolling...therefore threads like this one.
Right, because they already built so much "back end" on SpatialOS.........oh wait. No they didn't.
Back end, isn't that the part they talk out of? Because it seems very much in use
/Cheers, Lahnmir
And very well developed But it's not on SpacialOS
We should probably keep your fascination with Caspian's well-developed back end to another forum...
frostymug said: Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
That is the crux here, there isn't.
They are in early development which means all the works goes towards backend - a part you, as a user don't see. The fact that the game is very different in design and thus in development terms does not help much either.
And when you add lack of technical/management savvyness, you get plenty of fuel for trolling...therefore threads like this one.
Right, because they already built so much "back end" on SpatialOS.........oh wait. No they didn't.
Back end, isn't that the part they talk out of? Because it seems very much in use
/Cheers, Lahnmir
And very well developed But it's not on SpacialOS
We should probably keep your fascination with Caspian's well-developed back end to another forum...
It's not the back end it self, as much as it's the talking from it.
Well, you subtle digs side, I can only offer you my respect, as your 20 years ago, experience being a disposable QA tester that was so humiliating debasing that you don't even talk about it anymore makes you more the closest thing that the pessimist on this topic have to an actual game developer or someone with any working knowledge of the industry. So Kudos, you have that going for you at least.
Noting but respect.
It wasn't really humiliatingLY debasing at all. Just a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Also, not relevant to my current profession in any way. I'm also not trying to get money from other people based on loosely related experience. I decided enjoying games as a hobby was much better to me than having to work on them. As far as being disposable, QA Testers stuck around far longer than tool developers for the most part.
With regards to experience, Your hero Jeromy Walsh claims to be a 15 year veteran of the games industry in his pitch and background summary. If you look a little closer, the three years building tools that I mentioned are the only three years he was actually in the gaming industry. That was from 2002-2005. I guess the claim is that he's been in the industry since 2002 to gather those 15 years. So, by the criteria that you yourself cited as expertise, should I claim I have over 22 years experience in the industry? I mean, technically, we DO have the same number of released games under our belts...
You do realize that most companies hire or outsource a professional QA team to test their game, people like frostymug. or maybe you don't. Which would make his cred lost on you.
Are your wittle feewings so hurt that you can't make any point without trying to make another limp wristed jab at me?
I don't need the cred and wasn't seeking it anyways. I'm not trying to extract money from a bunch of people who apparently still think the world runs on sunshine and puppy farts.
If I exclude all whose inputs consists to a major part of building their arguments upon trying to discredit the other part, or questioning their mental capabilities, Im left with 3 people here worth reading. Its fine by me as its narrowing it down a lot, but at the same time take a break, imagine your counterpart has the same intellectual awareness and capability as yourself, only his/her opinion is different, then try to make an argument based on that.
You do realize that most companies hire or outsource a professional QA team to test their game, people like frostymug. or maybe you don't. Which would make his cred lost on you.
Are your wittle feewings so hurt that you can't make any point without trying to make another limp wristed jab at me?
nah man.. a limp-wristed jab is saying "You're"
But given you're creds your about as qualified to play arm-chair developer as anyone else, please, tell us you're amazing insight.
yah, I am just handing it to you now.
(get it... limp-wristed... handing it.)
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Don't look for logical thinking, rationality, or conventional wisdom, you won't find it from some folks.
Its their way of saying they have nothing to counter your argument, (except perhaps an ill used emoticon) and when it happens just know you've yet again won the argument.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Thing is, I think the premise of this game is interesting. Even without the SpatialOS platform it is different enough from what's out there to potentially draw me in. My problem is with the execution. If I haven't been clear
I was ready to be swayed on that, at least back towards center, but given the responses I've seen so far I can pretty comfortably say that, to me, it appears that nobody else really believes they can either. Except maybe mystichaze. There seems to be some true hope there.
Well, you subtle digs side, I can only offer you my respect, as your 20 years ago, experience being a disposable QA tester that was so humiliating debasing that you don't even talk about it anymore makes you more the closest thing that the pessimist on this topic have to an actual game developer or someone with any working knowledge of the industry. So Kudos, you have that going for you at least.
Noting but respect.
You do realize that most companies hire or outsource a professional QA team to test their game, people like frostymug. or maybe you don't. Which would make his cred lost on you.
I have to admit, one of the best responses I've read was from slapshot where he responded to the argument of P2W not existing based upon the fact that all items can be obtained in game with just one sentence: "The possibility of losing an advantage that I have bought does not forgo the fact I had and can still buy an advantage" (not exact wording).
I think the arguments now reflect on the topic logical fallacy than actual oversights for the game.
All I can say is, if you believe that making up new labels and euphemisms like P2Build for clear P2W elements is gonna stop the critical from noticing a low IQ tactic like that, then I guess I wouldn't quit my footlocker job any time soon if I were you.
Anyone knows that It's inherent nature of people to defend what they like, or defend their choice to support something, So it's natural that people who have invested into this game will defend it and their choice to support it.
And nothing changes the fact that it's a real shit move to keep hounding on those people.
Not everyone who took it upon themselves to throw a bit of mud on COE in this thread does so for every game. In fact most of us support many games. The thing is lots of us have been around here for almost 17 years in one form or another, and not only this forum but many.
That's a lot of time to learn how to spot the bad eggs, and why they spoil.. Also, despite what others may have you believe, some of us do actually work in this industry for a living...
I mean every few years someone will make wild and crazy promises about the next big MMO developed by an indie company.
Why are people ignoring all that we have learned in the last 20 years and still fall for the false prophets?
If you notice I was polite to you when you were being reasonable. That's because I don't mind constructive criticism, and I was also one of the first fans/backers to say Virginia was a terrible idea... I also said subscription games don't do as well on Steam, which is a fact at the current moment. That could change, we don't know and I'm open to find out. I'm not that worried though, if it's fun people will pay for it.
Good luck with your continued straw grasping if you choose.
Jokes aside, I agree with what you're saying; it makes it difficult though when you have people who post negative things on projects they don't even care about simply because it's similar. Especially when those troublemakers basically accuse us of myopia, all while not understanding the full picture themselves.It tends to set up a us vs them dynamic.
Overall it's a shame some developers see other games as hostile competition instead of a reason to be better themselves.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
But it's not on SpacialOS
With regards to experience, Your hero Jeromy Walsh claims to be a 15 year veteran of the games industry in his pitch and background summary. If you look a little closer, the three years building tools that I mentioned are the only three years he was actually in the gaming industry. That was from 2002-2005. I guess the claim is that he's been in the industry since 2002 to gather those 15 years. So, by the criteria that you yourself cited as expertise, should I claim I have over 22 years experience in the industry? I mean, technically, we DO have the same number of released games under our belts...
I don't need the cred and wasn't seeking it anyways. I'm not trying to extract money from a bunch of people who apparently still think the world runs on sunshine and puppy farts.
But given you're creds your about as qualified to play arm-chair developer as anyone else, please, tell us you're amazing insight.
yah, I am just handing it to you now.
(get it... limp-wristed... handing it.)