This seems to be a constant where the Naysayers repeatedly claim (In every thread) that CoE is a pay-to-win game. I know I am opening a can of worms by making this post and setting myself up as a target. But I want to try to clarify the difference to those that are still learning about CoE if I can.
I laugh at P2W cries, I play GW2, where people call mount skins.. not mounts.. not mount upgrades.. just a purely cosmetic skin.. and they call it P2W.
So yah.. I don't give those cries an iota of respect anymore. I'll see it.. I'll play.. and I alone will make a decision if I think it is P2W.
Indeed any kind of cosmetic skins that's in such games is not p2w IMO either but then this game isn't offering that is it but things far far different.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
just a question I think is quite important; What is winning in CoE? Is it being king? If it is, then clearly its p2w, but for me whos only interested in the wvw aspect of the game my objections, or what I would call winning, would be to be a part of the best wvw guild and be recognized as it as well. Im part of call it a major wvw guild in CU, and some of us have also bought CoE (the game only), and for us, thats winning. Whats your ideas of winning?
I would like to elaborate on this post. If your win condition is Just to be King! Then yes I guess you have won by purchasing the package. You can say "I was -King-. But For how long? Well, that is very dependent on your ability to rule, lead, deal with drama, organize and have a vast amount of time to donate to the game. So if your win condition is to be a -successful- King, you will have to work for it being a success can't be purchased in the pledge package. See the difference?
Elyria has no end game, therefore everyone's win conditions are going to be different. As Killimondros stated, the group he/she is part of has very different win conditions. So as asked in the above post, what are your Win Conditions?
Occams Razor.....or in my kind of jargon KISS (keep it simple stupid) the winning condition in these types of argument is anything in which you pay real life monies that gives you an advantage over another player in game.
All the spins you all are spitting out entertain far far too many assumptions that can never be proved one way or the other which are further confounded buy other peoples motives and honesty in such discussion.
This is why ultimately most people that use common sense would agree cosmetics are not pay to win because they offer no kind of advantage over others whereas other stuff like we see in these packages do as they are not purely cosmetic.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
So we establish that buying finite hard to collect resources is an advantage we then go forward to compound them. You mentioned having to obtain patterns.... yes, I also bought those in your cash shop. So now while you are looking for resources and patterns.. I bought both. That’s not all of course. I also bought a legendary technology kit for my school so even my school is better than yours. Oh yeah just to be safe I also bought a legendary military kit to make sure my town is the best defended around. Along the way I also had a ton of village tokens bought with real cash. The more tokens the Mayor receives, the greater the settlement becomes. Each token increases population and, at certain thresholds, tokens will create special Settlement Upgrades that your Mayor can use to increase the city limits, add additional buildings, and more!
As I have stated before. Those Kits are only purchasable by the coinciding rank and you are only allowed one individual kit per account. The EP needed to purchase them is already included in the Packages. So, anyone who as bought the appropriate package can also purchase the kit at no extra cost to them personally.
You are not able to purchase a -ton- of village tokens since they only allow three per account which only increases your Settlement by an extra player/NPC per token.
So according to your example, the only thing you could actually obtain as a Mayor is a Defence Kit and three Tokens. Which can also be obtained by every other Mayor in the game if they choose, only having to actually pay for the tokens. Or having them donated to them.
If you are going to debate with me at least know the facts instead of making shit up.
So we establish that buying finite hard to collect resources is an advantage we then go forward to compound them. You mentioned having to obtain patterns.... yes, I also bought those in your cash shop. So now while you are looking for resources and patterns.. I bought both. That’s not all of course. I also bought a legendary technology kit for my school so even my school is better than yours. Oh yeah just to be safe I also bought a legendary military kit to make sure my town is the best defended around. Along the way I also had a ton of village tokens bought with real cash. The more tokens the Mayor receives, the greater the settlement becomes. Each token increases population and, at certain thresholds, tokens will create special Settlement Upgrades that your Mayor can use to increase the city limits, add additional buildings, and more!
As I have stated before. Those Kits are only purchasable by the coinciding rank and you are only allowed one individual kit per account. The EP needed to purchase them is already included in the Packages. So, anyone who as bought the appropriate package can also purchase the kit at no extra cost to them personally.
You are not able to purchase a -ton- of village tokens since they only allow three per account which only increases your Settlement by an extra player/NPC per token.
So according to your example, the only thing you could actually obtain is a Mayor is a Defence Kit and three Tokens. Which can also be obtained by every other Mayor in the game if they choose, only having to actually pay for the tokens.
If you are going to debate with me at least know the facts instead of making shit up.
Please... back to the desperate claims about my not knowing? I even posted that you can only buy 1 kit but you can buy the items from other ones ala carte... Did you read that part? The kit is just a discounted price. You can also upgrade individual perks... for real cash.
As for the tokens, again if you read I said they were bought with real cash not that I bought them myself. Feel free to re-read my statement on tokens any time you’d like. I mean it’s right there on the bottom of the post you quoted as some kind of proof I “make shit up”. When are you folks going to give up your Ahab quest to try and prove I don’t know my shit?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Just replace win with huge advantage... and the whole argument goes away.
Pay for huge advantage... OK
There is zero advantage without the support of other players. Everything would be lost very quickly. That in itself is the game. Just saying.
Yet if two players have the exact same support yet one bought all these things from the store and the other didn’t, they would have a huge advantage.
There is no wordsmithing that can change that basic fundamental truth.
As stated in the above post, you can't purchase everything in the store.
Everything I posted can be purchased in the store. As a matter of fact... technically you are right because the store only lets you spend real money today. You can buy the store currency of EP today. What I listed were examples of what Caspien posted as being available someday (soon?) to spend that currency on. It’s only a partial list. Once the full list is out I’m sure we will have a fun discussion about all the other stuff you can buy too.
Its good to have something to look forward to!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This seems to be a constant where the Naysayers repeatedly claim (In every thread) that CoE is a pay-to-win game. I know I am opening a can of worms by making this post and setting myself up as a target. But I want to try to clarify the difference to those that are still learning about CoE if I can.
I laugh at P2W cries, I play GW2, where people call mount skins.. not mounts.. not mount upgrades.. just a purely cosmetic skin.. and they call it P2W.
So yah.. I don't give those cries an iota of respect anymore. I'll see it.. I'll play.. and I alone will make a decision if I think it is P2W.
Indeed any kind of cosmetic skins that's in such games is not p2w IMO either but then this game isn't offering that is it but things far far different.
The idea is still the same.. anything anyone does not want to spend money on, suddenly becomes P2W.
I am playing BDO right now, and, I have heard it's very P2W.. on my 3rd day of the trial.. and I am still am not sure where the Item Store is.. so it can't be that P2W.
In games like second life, Most of the Money in the game, was player bought, (and money in that game could go both ways), and no one cried P2W about it, mainly because real P2W games like Evony were going strong at the time.
So with CoE .. we shall see. If it turns out to be unacceptable to me. I'll just stop playing, let my character die in AFK oblivion, and move on to another game, not like I have to invest into the game if I am not having fun.
But P2W has been soo watered down these days, it's not even worth humoring it's usage anymore.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just replace win with huge advantage... and the whole argument goes away.
Pay for huge advantage... OK
There is zero advantage without the support of other players. Everything would be lost very quickly. That in itself is the game. Just saying.
Yet if two players have the exact same support yet one bought all these things from the store and the other didn’t, they would have a huge advantage.
There is no wordsmithing that can change that basic fundamental truth.
As stated in the above post, you can't purchase everything in the store.
Everything I posted can be purchased in the store. As a matter of fact... technically you are right because the store only lets you spend real money today. You can buy the store currency of EP today. What I listed were examples of what Caspien posted as being available someday (soon?) to spend that currency on. It’s only a partial list. Once the full list is out I’m sure we will have a fun discussion about all the other stuff you can buy too.
"Has open world PVP, but it is not illegal and punishable by law."
What does that sentence mean? How is it "not illegal" but "punishable by law"?
lol My bad for the typo, it is not legal.
As always I feel the Developer Journals can explain things better then I can. I will start this off by saying that PVP is possible no matter where you are in Elyria. However, there are consequences if you have criminal intent.
Something that is not mentioned in this link is that when you Coup De Grace another player you will also lose a portion of your lifespan.
Versions of Death: Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath
In most games, death is what happens when your health reaches zero. Generally once dead you are teleported to some nearby recall point and have the opportunity to live again, usually without consequences, so you can continue your quest. In Chronicles of Elyria, there are actually three different things which most games would classify as "dying." Each of them comes with varying degrees of consequences for all players involved.
Incapacitation
Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness. Note that while they can't see anything, they can still hear what's going on around them. There's no reason for this, we just felt it was a nice touch, as it's often believed those who are unconscious or in a coma can still hear/sense those around them.
It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone unless legally done, is still a crime and typically comes with a small amount of jail time if arrested. We’ll talk more about the legal forms of incapacitating someone in a later journal.
While you're unconscious other players can do things such as "Quick Loot" your person, bind you for capture, or tow your body around a short distance. One of the things I want to call out here is that while being incapacitated leaves you unconscious, it doesn't actually result in any long-term penalties. There's no loss of Spirit for being incapacitated and it doesn't reduce your total lifespan.
Coup De Grace & Spirit Walking
The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however, especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.
When someone performs a coup de grace you'll hear your unconscious self-scream, and then your screen will transition from black to a vision of another world known as the Astral Plane. (See Figure 1.) This is the plane of existence between the mortal world and the world of the gods. When you enter the astral plane you'll see a small silver cord which goes from your soul, traveling some distance, to a highly saturated version of your mortal body that has manifested on the Astral Plane. This is your connection to the physical world.
As time passes, and your soul is separated from your body, your connection to the physical world grows weaker and weaker. If enough time passes and you cannot return to your mortal body, your body will become uninhabitable and your soul will be forced to make its way back to the Akashic Records.
This seems to be a constant where the Naysayers repeatedly claim (In every thread) that CoE is a pay-to-win game. I know I am opening a can of worms by making this post and setting myself up as a target. But I want to try to clarify the difference to those that are still learning about CoE if I can.
I laugh at P2W cries, I play GW2, where people call mount skins.. not mounts.. not mount upgrades.. just a purely cosmetic skin.. and they call it P2W.
So yah.. I don't give those cries an iota of respect anymore. I'll see it.. I'll play.. and I alone will make a decision if I think it is P2W.
Indeed any kind of cosmetic skins that's in such games is not p2w IMO either but then this game isn't offering that is it but things far far different.
The idea is still the same.. anything anyone does not want to spend money on, suddenly becomes P2W.
I am playing BDO right now, and, I have heard it's very P2W.. on my 3rd day of the trial.. and I am still am not sure where the Item Store is.. so it can't be that P2W.
In games like second life, Most of the Money in the game, was player bought, (and money in that game could go both ways), and no one cried P2W about it, mainly because real P2W games like Evony were going strong at the time.
So with CoE .. we shall see. If it turns out to be unacceptable to me. I'll just stop playing, let my character die in AFK oblivion, and move on to another game, not like I have to invest into the game if I am not having fun.
But P2W has been soo watered down these days, it's not even worth humoring it's usage anymore.
Ah no.
Sure some people take the term too far but fundamentally p2w never meant "win" as some people in this thread are trying to spin it. This isn't a board game or card game with a clear start and end to a game or match.
Like I said Occam Razor and KISS. Anything else is just sophistry.
I can understand your wanting to just try the game and see for yourself...some of us have enough experience in games to be able to see how it's going to go down by how the mechanics are suppose to work and what happening in the store or crowdfunding phase etc.
All the luck to you though.
What really annoys me though are games that are clearly p2w and depending on whales yet try to hide this or can't just own it.
I mean if some dev or company wants to make a p2w game cause "reasons" then go for it, attract those whales and make mad cash.
I mean you see it often enough in mobile and browser games and no one cares so why the big brouhaha when it comes to these more traditional rpgmmo?
I say stop spinning it and own it instead.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
just a question I think is quite important; What is winning in CoE? Is it being king? If it is, then clearly its p2w, but for me whos only interested in the wvw aspect of the game my objections, or what I would call winning, would be to be a part of the best wvw guild and be recognized as it as well. Im part of call it a major wvw guild in CU, and some of us have also bought CoE (the game only), and for us, thats winning. Whats your ideas of winning?
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women!"
Conan
I honestly think most of the fans of COE have never really played a territory control game such as Shadowbane, Darkfall, EVE or UO.
If so you would understand what there is to win or lose and not ask such questions, and you would understand better how buying advantages can clearly set up a win condition.
Recalling Shadowbane, in many servers one alliance would rise up and exterminate all other competitors. Only salvation is once there was no one left to fight, even the victors left the game.
I'm not sure how clever the current royalty in COE is, if any are as good as folks I 've run into in the past not only will they never be dislodged after buying their pre launch advantages, theyll roll over all others
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
tdlr: There is no game and not even an alpha version, but the team are working hard on the cash shop and you can buy lots of stuff now to give you a massive advantage once the game starts; you can buy everything from entire kingdoms (for $10,000) to finite resources and lots of cool stuff in between!
"Has open world PVP, but it is not illegal and punishable by law."
What does that sentence mean? How is it "not illegal" but "punishable by law"?
lol My bad for the typo, it is not legal.
As always I feel the Developer Journals can explain things better then I can. I will start this off by saying that PVP is possible no matter where you are in Elyria. However, there are consequences if you have criminal intent.
Something that is not mentioned in this link is that when you Coup De Grace another player you will also lose a portion of your lifespan.
Versions of Death: Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath
In most games, death is what happens when your health reaches zero. Generally once dead you are teleported to some nearby recall point and have the opportunity to live again, usually without consequences, so you can continue your quest. In Chronicles of Elyria, there are actually three different things which most games would classify as "dying." Each of them comes with varying degrees of consequences for all players involved.
Incapacitation
Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness. Note that while they can't see anything, they can still hear what's going on around them. There's no reason for this, we just felt it was a nice touch, as it's often believed those who are unconscious or in a coma can still hear/sense those around them.
It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone unless legally done, is still a crime and typically comes with a small amount of jail time if arrested. We’ll talk more about the legal forms of incapacitating someone in a later journal.
While you're unconscious other players can do things such as "Quick Loot" your person, bind you for capture, or tow your body around a short distance. One of the things I want to call out here is that while being incapacitated leaves you unconscious, it doesn't actually result in any long-term penalties. There's no loss of Spirit for being incapacitated and it doesn't reduce your total lifespan.
Coup De Grace & Spirit Walking
The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however, especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.
When someone performs a coup de grace you'll hear your unconscious self-scream, and then your screen will transition from black to a vision of another world known as the Astral Plane. (See Figure 1.) This is the plane of existence between the mortal world and the world of the gods. When you enter the astral plane you'll see a small silver cord which goes from your soul, traveling some distance, to a highly saturated version of your mortal body that has manifested on the Astral Plane. This is your connection to the physical world.
As time passes, and your soul is separated from your body, your connection to the physical world grows weaker and weaker. If enough time passes and you cannot return to your mortal body, your body will become uninhabitable and your soul will be forced to make its way back to the Akashic Records.
There it is, I thought you were mistaken in your OP, it isn't wide open PVP, I've read this before but couldn't recall if this was COE, Ashes or some other game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Has open world PVP, but it is not illegal and punishable by law."
What does that sentence mean? How is it "not illegal" but "punishable by law"?
lol My bad for the typo, it is not legal.
As always I feel the Developer Journals can explain things better then I can. I will start this off by saying that PVP is possible no matter where you are in Elyria. However, there are consequences if you have criminal intent.
Something that is not mentioned in this link is that when you Coup De Grace another player you will also lose a portion of your lifespan.
Versions of Death: Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath
In most games, death is what happens when your health reaches zero. Generally once dead you are teleported to some nearby recall point and have the opportunity to live again, usually without consequences, so you can continue your quest. In Chronicles of Elyria, there are actually three different things which most games would classify as "dying." Each of them comes with varying degrees of consequences for all players involved.
Incapacitation
Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness. Note that while they can't see anything, they can still hear what's going on around them. There's no reason for this, we just felt it was a nice touch, as it's often believed those who are unconscious or in a coma can still hear/sense those around them.
It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone unless legally done, is still a crime and typically comes with a small amount of jail time if arrested. We’ll talk more about the legal forms of incapacitating someone in a later journal.
While you're unconscious other players can do things such as "Quick Loot" your person, bind you for capture, or tow your body around a short distance. One of the things I want to call out here is that while being incapacitated leaves you unconscious, it doesn't actually result in any long-term penalties. There's no loss of Spirit for being incapacitated and it doesn't reduce your total lifespan.
Coup De Grace & Spirit Walking
The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however, especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.
When someone performs a coup de grace you'll hear your unconscious self-scream, and then your screen will transition from black to a vision of another world known as the Astral Plane. (See Figure 1.) This is the plane of existence between the mortal world and the world of the gods. When you enter the astral plane you'll see a small silver cord which goes from your soul, traveling some distance, to a highly saturated version of your mortal body that has manifested on the Astral Plane. This is your connection to the physical world.
As time passes, and your soul is separated from your body, your connection to the physical world grows weaker and weaker. If enough time passes and you cannot return to your mortal body, your body will become uninhabitable and your soul will be forced to make its way back to the Akashic Records.
There it is, I thought you were mistaken in your OP, it isn't wide open PVP, I've read this before but couldn't recall if this was COE, Ashes or some other game.
So we have now established that buying resources (including rare ones) in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is by definition a huge advantage. We then established that combining that with the ability to purchase things like patterns and techniques (both also able to be of various rarities), kits that make your military better and ones that make your technology better while also collecting $10 tokens to make your town bigger and better just act as multipliers of that advantage.
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So we have now established that buying resources (including rare ones) in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is by definition a huge advantage. We then established that combining that with the ability to purchase things like patterns and techniques (both also able to be of various rarities), kits that make your military better and ones that make your technology better while also collecting $10 tokens to make your town bigger and better just act as multipliers of that advantage.
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
You and perhaps a handful of people have proven that you have a specific opinion about this game being P2W. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't "establish" it as a fact. I don't even think this game will ever get finished and that this is all theory but I still think it's not P2W because that term was coined for games that are designed for everyone to start on even footing and to be fair. It's times like this when I sympathize with Caspian and his disparaging of forums like this one. People get so up in arms about the idea of buying advantages in the game because all they see is another WvW game and how the EP and packages help give benefits to specific people and guilds. Never mind that the world is designed to have class warfare as well as actual warfare and that some people need to be in the different classes in order for that to work. So does it convey an advantage? Sure, if you're trying to be in a specific class and think buying everything is going to make you win the game. Otherwise, it's just another method of world-building. And if that is so upsetting to you then don't support the games development and pretend it doesn't exist, easy.
So we have now established that buying resources (including rare ones) in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is by definition a huge advantage. We then established that combining that with the ability to purchase things like patterns and techniques (both also able to be of various rarities), kits that make your military better and ones that make your technology better while also collecting $10 tokens to make your town bigger and better just act as multipliers of that advantage.
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
You and perhaps a handful of people have proven that you have a specific opinion about this game being P2W. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't "establish" it as a fact. I don't even think this game will ever get finished and that this is all theory but I still think it's not P2W because that term was coined for games that are designed for everyone to start on even footing and to be fair. It's times like this when I sympathize with Caspian and his disparaging of forums like this one. People get so up in arms about the idea of buying advantages in the game because all they see is another WvW game and how the EP and packages help give benefits to specific people and guilds. Never mind that the world is designed to have class warfare as well as actual warfare and that some people need to be in the different classes in order for that to work. So does it convey an advantage? Sure, if you're trying to be in a specific class and think buying everything is going to make you win the game. Otherwise, it's just another method of world-building. And if that is so upsetting to you then don't support the games development and pretend it doesn't exist, easy.
As I stated in the thread. Don't worry about quibbling about "Win" definitions. Most people use it as paying for an advantage which is how it started many years ago. So to make life easier... simply substitute win for huge advantage. If you note, the post you quoted specifically just referred to advantages purchased.
Again, buying resources for cash in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is fundamentally a huge advantage. This is not "an opinion". This is a simple truth. If something is finite and hard to collect... having that thing is valuable.
There is no wordsmithing that changes that fact. Buying other items such as technology kits and patterns simply make that advantage even greater vs people that do not spend real money to get it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
just a question I think is quite important; What is winning in CoE? Is it being king? If it is, then clearly its p2w, but for me whos only interested in the wvw aspect of the game my objections, or what I would call winning, would be to be a part of the best wvw guild and be recognized as it as well. Im part of call it a major wvw guild in CU, and some of us have also bought CoE (the game only), and for us, thats winning. Whats your ideas of winning?
I would like to elaborate on this post. If your win condition is Just to be King! Then yes I guess you have won by purchasing the package. You can say "I was -King-. But For how long? Well, that is very dependent on your ability to rule, lead, deal with drama, organize and have a vast amount of time to donate to the game. So if your win condition is to be a -successful- King, you will have to work for it. Being a success can't be purchased in the pledge package. See the difference?
Elyria has no end game, therefore everyone's win conditions are going to be different. As Killimondros stated, the group he/she is part of has very different win conditions. So as asked in the above post, what are your Win Conditions?
Okay so we can all agree, if you're goal is to be king, then CoE is P2W. (Check)
@Mystichaze, one of your goals as mentioned previously was to:
"...participate in the Dance of Dynasties (Which I
look at as almost a separate game) Just to see how successful I could
make my County."
If that were someone's goal (to participate in the DoD and have a successful county), is CoE P2W? (Check)
Reason: You can pay $500-$1000 to instantly become a count.
As you say people have many different goals, so lets look at a few of those:
- "I want to be the best at crafting, is CoE P2W?" (Check) What to Buy (WTB): Buy the highest tier associated Profession Kit and get the starting equipment, tools, and patterns or techniques necessary NOTE: There is a kit for Explorer, Herbalist, Hunter, Miner, Lumberjack, Papermaker, Farmer,
Prospector, Merchant, Blacksmith, Tailor, Leatherworker, Cartographer,
Scribe, Mason, Tinkerer, Carpenter, Artist, Cook, Alchemist,
Candlemaker, Glass Blower, and Fletcher.
- "I want to own land and be a simple farmer, is CoE P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy land, buildings, and mules for your farm
- "I want to be a horse breeder, is CoE P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy some land and as many horses as you want to get you started
- "Screw crafting, I want to be an adventurer, is CoE P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy the Adventurer pack, Explorer and/or Hunter profession kit, and a strong mount
- "I want to run a store and sell other peoples wares, is CoE P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy the Storefront Kit, which provides the fixed location assets necessary to set
up a shop, storefront, or other establishment on leased land. They'll
typically include blueprints and resources for a small building,
crafting stations or other furniture, and additional decor to help give
the location a welcoming feel (ex. forges & anvil, bar & tables,
loom & spinning wheel, display cases and racks)
- "Logistics is my game, I want to transport goods, is CoE P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy mounts and a caravan wagon.
- "I want to play cupid, and give away Valentines gifts to random people, is CoW P2W?" (Check) WTB: Buy the new promotional stuff in the store
- "I want to be a peasant, and serve a king tirelessly in exchange for his protection and generosity, is CoE P2W?" (Uncheck) WTB:
Nothing, you can win at that for free. (Unless you want to choose who
your king, then buy the $10 Kingdom Tokens to vote for your desired
king)
Not enough winning for your specific goal? WTB: Buy any of the other items of value (nobility titles, land, mounts, etc.) that may not benefit your goal directly, and trade them in game with other players for things that will.
I just picture Caspien sitting in his room, staring at his monitor reading this thread and going:
Which part about "it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle " did they not understand.
I actually almost have sympathy for him... but this is what you get when you ask the angry mob to go shut down skeptics. You lose control of the narrative and turn it over to people who are actually going to quote your request not to have conversations about whether or not the game is P2W in threads they make starting a conversation about it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What's so wrong with accepting that you need P2W to sustain a game everyone wants?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Caspian will refuse to say that his methods are P2W but make people pay for something as innocuous and seemingly free as a vote?
What I don't understand, out of all the things worth pondering or worrying about like development or pushing dev journals out, he had to specially come out with a new term for P2W all the while insisting nothing in his game is P2W.
I think one of the beluga whales even said he considers the game to have P2W elements (I think the king's name was birdfoot or something).
I think the possibilities of why Caspian did this are:
To purposely ignite the discussion to garner petty attention
To make his followers believe that a cat is a dog and that a dog is a cat
The very fact Caspian made a new term for P2W and vehemently denyed his shop as P2W from people asking on the forums inevitably got him to personally add fuel to the fire.
Comments
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
All the spins you all are spitting out entertain far far too many assumptions that can never be proved one way or the other which are further confounded buy other peoples motives and honesty in such discussion.
This is why ultimately most people that use common sense would agree cosmetics are not pay to win because they offer no kind of advantage over others whereas other stuff like we see in these packages do as they are not purely cosmetic.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Pay for huge advantage... OK
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There is no wordsmithing that can change that basic fundamental truth.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So we establish that buying finite hard to collect resources is an advantage we then go forward to compound them. You mentioned having to obtain patterns.... yes, I also bought those in your cash shop. So now while you are looking for resources and patterns.. I bought both. That’s not all of course. I also bought a legendary technology kit for my school so even my school is better than yours. Oh yeah just to be safe I also bought a legendary military kit to make sure my town is the best defended around. Along the way I also had a ton of village tokens bought with real cash. The more tokens the Mayor receives, the greater the settlement becomes. Each token increases population and, at certain thresholds, tokens will create special Settlement Upgrades that your Mayor can use to increase the city limits, add additional buildings, and more!
You are not able to purchase a -ton- of village tokens since they only allow three per account which only increases your Settlement by an extra player/NPC per token.
So according to your example, the only thing you could actually obtain as a Mayor is a Defence Kit and three Tokens. Which can also be obtained by every other Mayor in the game if they choose, only having to actually pay for the tokens. Or having them donated to them.
If you are going to debate with me at least know the facts instead of making shit up.
As for the tokens, again if you read I said they were bought with real cash not that I bought them myself. Feel free to re-read my statement on tokens any time you’d like. I mean it’s right there on the bottom of the post you quoted as some kind of proof I “make shit up”. When are you folks going to give up your Ahab quest to try and prove I don’t know my shit?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Its good to have something to look forward to!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am playing BDO right now, and, I have heard it's very P2W.. on my 3rd day of the trial.. and I am still am not sure where the Item Store is.. so it can't be that P2W.
In games like second life, Most of the Money in the game, was player bought, (and money in that game could go both ways), and no one cried P2W about it, mainly because real P2W games like Evony were going strong at the time.
So with CoE .. we shall see. If it turns out to be unacceptable to me. I'll just stop playing, let my character die in AFK oblivion, and move on to another game, not like I have to invest into the game if I am not having fun.
But P2W has been soo watered down these days, it's not even worth humoring it's usage anymore.
What does that sentence mean? How is it "not illegal" but "punishable by law"?
Let's party like it is 1863!
As always I feel the Developer Journals can explain things better then I can. I will start this off by saying that PVP is possible no matter where you are in Elyria. However, there are consequences if you have criminal intent.
Something that is not mentioned in this link is that when you Coup De Grace another player you will also lose a portion of your lifespan.
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/348/Design-Journal-4-Incapacitation-Spirit-Walking-and-Permadeath
Versions of Death: Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath
In most games, death is what happens when your health reaches zero. Generally once dead you are teleported to some nearby recall point and have the opportunity to live again, usually without consequences, so you can continue your quest. In Chronicles of Elyria, there are actually three different things which most games would classify as "dying." Each of them comes with varying degrees of consequences for all players involved.
Incapacitation
Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness. Note that while they can't see anything, they can still hear what's going on around them. There's no reason for this, we just felt it was a nice touch, as it's often believed those who are unconscious or in a coma can still hear/sense those around them.
It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone unless legally done, is still a crime and typically comes with a small amount of jail time if arrested. We’ll talk more about the legal forms of incapacitating someone in a later journal.
While you're unconscious other players can do things such as "Quick Loot" your person, bind you for capture, or tow your body around a short distance. One of the things I want to call out here is that while being incapacitated leaves you unconscious, it doesn't actually result in any long-term penalties. There's no loss of Spirit for being incapacitated and it doesn't reduce your total lifespan.
Coup De Grace & Spirit Walking
The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however, especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.
When someone performs a coup de grace you'll hear your unconscious self-scream, and then your screen will transition from black to a vision of another world known as the Astral Plane. (See Figure 1.) This is the plane of existence between the mortal world and the world of the gods. When you enter the astral plane you'll see a small silver cord which goes from your soul, traveling some distance, to a highly saturated version of your mortal body that has manifested on the Astral Plane. This is your connection to the physical world.
As time passes, and your soul is separated from your body, your connection to the physical world grows weaker and weaker. If enough time passes and you cannot return to your mortal body, your body will become uninhabitable and your soul will be forced to make its way back to the Akashic Records.
Sure some people take the term too far but fundamentally p2w never meant "win" as some people in this thread are trying to spin it. This isn't a board game or card game with a clear start and end to a game or match.
Like I said Occam Razor and KISS. Anything else is just sophistry.
I can understand your wanting to just try the game and see for yourself...some of us have enough experience in games to be able to see how it's going to go down by how the mechanics are suppose to work and what happening in the store or crowdfunding phase etc.
All the luck to you though.
What really annoys me though are games that are clearly p2w and depending on whales yet try to hide this or can't just own it.
I mean if some dev or company wants to make a p2w game cause "reasons" then go for it, attract those whales and make mad cash.
I mean you see it often enough in mobile and browser games and no one cares so why the big brouhaha when it comes to these more traditional rpgmmo?
I say stop spinning it and own it instead.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Conan
I honestly think most of the fans of COE have never really played a territory control game such as Shadowbane, Darkfall, EVE or UO.
If so you would understand what there is to win or lose and not ask such questions, and you would understand better how buying advantages can clearly set up a win condition.
Recalling Shadowbane, in many servers one alliance would rise up and exterminate all other competitors. Only salvation is once there was no one left to fight, even the victors left the game.
I'm not sure how clever the current royalty in COE is, if any are as good as folks I 've run into in the past not only will they never be dislodged after buying their pre launch advantages, theyll roll over all others
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again, buying resources for cash in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is fundamentally a huge advantage. This is not "an opinion". This is a simple truth. If something is finite and hard to collect... having that thing is valuable.
There is no wordsmithing that changes that fact. Buying other items such as technology kits and patterns simply make that advantage even greater vs people that do not spend real money to get it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@Mystichaze, one of your goals as mentioned previously was to:
"...participate in the Dance of Dynasties (Which I look at as almost a separate game) Just to see how successful I could make my County."
If that were someone's goal (to participate in the DoD and have a successful county), is CoE P2W? (Check)
Reason: You can pay $500-$1000 to instantly become a count.
As you say people have many different goals, so lets look at a few of those:
- "I want to be the best at crafting, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
What to Buy (WTB): Buy the highest tier associated Profession Kit and get the starting equipment, tools, and patterns or techniques necessary
NOTE: There is a kit for Explorer, Herbalist, Hunter, Miner, Lumberjack, Papermaker, Farmer, Prospector, Merchant, Blacksmith, Tailor, Leatherworker, Cartographer, Scribe, Mason, Tinkerer, Carpenter, Artist, Cook, Alchemist, Candlemaker, Glass Blower, and Fletcher.
- "I want to own land and be a simple farmer, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy land, buildings, and mules for your farm
- "I want to be a horse breeder, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy some land and as many horses as you want to get you started
- "Screw crafting, I want to be an adventurer, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy the Adventurer pack, Explorer and/or Hunter profession kit, and a strong mount
- "I want to run a store and sell other peoples wares, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy the Storefront Kit, which provides the fixed location assets necessary to set up a shop, storefront, or other establishment on leased land. They'll typically include blueprints and resources for a small building, crafting stations or other furniture, and additional decor to help give the location a welcoming feel (ex. forges & anvil, bar & tables, loom & spinning wheel, display cases and racks)
- "Logistics is my game, I want to transport goods, is CoE P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy mounts and a caravan wagon.
- "I want to play cupid, and give away Valentines gifts to random people, is CoW P2W?" (Check)
WTB: Buy the new promotional stuff in the store
- "I want to be a peasant, and serve a king tirelessly in exchange for his protection and generosity, is CoE P2W?" (Uncheck)
WTB: Nothing, you can win at that for free. (Unless you want to choose who your king, then buy the $10 Kingdom Tokens to vote for your desired king)
Not enough winning for your specific goal?
WTB: Buy any of the other items of value (nobility titles, land, mounts, etc.) that may not benefit your goal directly, and trade them in game with other players for things that will.
Which part about "it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle " did they not understand.
I actually almost have sympathy for him... but this is what you get when you ask the angry mob to go shut down skeptics. You lose control of the narrative and turn it over to people who are actually going to quote your request not to have conversations about whether or not the game is P2W in threads they make starting a conversation about it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Caspian will refuse to say that his methods are P2W but make people pay for something as innocuous and seemingly free as a vote?
What I don't understand, out of all the things worth pondering or worrying about like development or pushing dev journals out, he had to specially come out with a new term for P2W all the while insisting nothing in his game is P2W.
I think one of the beluga whales even said he considers the game to have P2W elements (I think the king's name was birdfoot or something).
I think the possibilities of why Caspian did this are:
The very fact Caspian made a new term for P2W and vehemently denyed his shop as P2W from people asking on the forums inevitably got him to personally add fuel to the fire.
Logically, it's a fucking nightmare.