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Do we really need something new ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
edited February 2018 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
People often say we need something new and innovative.

First thing I say is " like what ? ". 
The next thing I would say is " if so, how long would it last ? "  

The way I see it, were done with gimmicks and fireworks, they don't hold peoples attention.  

Infact think about a fireworks display, they usually last about a half hour.  After that the people would leave, even if you save the spectacular thing's for later...... Jason Bourne Movies, they're great, constant non stop action, an hour longer you would likely turn it off. 

Try going to a Night Club with hart pounding music for forty hours straight with out drinking.  You would probably punch the DJ. 
     

My answer: 

Flowing and natural 
More intelligent AI  
Foliage you can hide behind 
Crafting where items break 
NPC's that get mad at you 
Innovative abilities 


Creative writing and I'm not talking about dialog but more about flow of how the game progresses.

Take "Vanilla World of Warcraft" from 2004 for instance.  You create a Night Elf on the island of Teldrassil, not much going on with your level one as you're holding on to you broken dagger.  But the mood is peaceful along with the music.  Nothing telling you what  to do as you naturally move forward....... Now this is 2004, you have that ugly yellow quest marker above everyone's head that many hate.  How about simply expanding on issues like that ?....... use your imagination...... subtle, indirect methods to achieve something. 

Now take "Rift" from 2011.  You started this game with all hell breaking loose, you hit the ground running and everything is going Ka-boom, your screen was shaking like you had palsy !....... Was this memorable or irritating ?..... Imagine playing the entire game like that. 

I may be old, and yes, I like flavors other than vanilla and chocolate..... But one thing for sure, no one likes obnoxious gimmicks for long.  Gimmicks are short lived.  

And last, your looking at a flat screen, how much more could you expect ?
Post edited by delete5230 on
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Comments

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206

    All of that is related to the solo PvE, what about the MMO? Also you can find most of these "innovations" in existing games like BDO.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,881
    I remember when an article on this site (around ten years ago) was talking about how MMO companies were expecting everyone and the tea boy to do the story writing for quests. The idea you needed dedicated writers started to go out the window, apart from a few companies like Bethesda, I don't think that's changed much.
    Octagon7711

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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,335
    Scot said:
    I remember when an article on this site (around ten years ago) was talking about how MMO companies were expecting everyone and the tea boy to do the story writing for quests. The idea you needed dedicated writers started to go out the window, apart from a few companies like Bethesda, I don't think that's changed much.
    Most of the themepark games have a solo leveling experience, which is many people's complain on the forum.  I personally don't care how it is designed, solo or group.  Only complain is if it is design for group you need to make sure it is easy to find a group.  And don't force people to go out of the way to find people to group with.  I'm not spend 1 hours finding group to do a 10 minute quest.
    Viper482
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,491
    OP, do you write these posts yourself, or do you just use some random content generator to save you time on your quest for more forum points?
    delete5230
  • josko9josko9 Member RarePosts: 577
    edited February 2018
    Rift had (has) one of the best tutorials I've ever experienced, it totally pulled me in. Sadly I had to quit the moment I stepped into the main city, my PC was just too weak at that time. Othervise it's a pretty decent game, with many innovations as well, it might be a WoW-clone, but it does many things better than the "original".
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,113
    i like to see the something new in how we play the game . I mean use something other than mouse and keyboard or handheld controller to play game while watching flat monitor .

  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,049
    We don't need anything new, what we need is to go back to the roots of the MMORPG and remember what made the genre great to begin with. Community.
    deniterbcbullyTindale111
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Viper482 said:
    We don't need anything new, what we need is to go back to the roots of the MMORPG and remember what made the genre great to begin with. Community.
    While I completely agree that community is the key to developing an MMO, the original ones were actually pretty awful at it so hopefully future developers will learn a thing or two about not only priorities but also how to implement them.
  • MagararMagarar Member CommonPosts: 8
    yes , but its need to a thought out .
  • kostasvkostasv Member CommonPosts: 7
    The definition of 'new' is always a bit controversial.... what I love is a good evolving story and not just static quests and missions that you execute over and over again, with the same enemies, same boss and rewards. That to me gets very boring, very quickly!
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    If ArcheAge had a subscription only server, I probably wouldn't ask for anything new. 

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    “More intelligent AI” “NPCs that get mad at you”. /facepalm here we go again.

    OP real people exist. Why not invest in game systems that bring out the emergent game play you’re looking for instead of the trillion dollar R&D black hole of human acting NPCs?
    4507
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Viper482 said:
    We don't need anything new, what we need is to go back to the roots of the MMORPG and remember what made the genre great to begin with. Community.
    Speak for yourself. I don't care for games about "community". 

    As for "need" .. gaming is a luxury .. we do not "need" anything. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I don't think those things are new, most of them are just improvements of stuff that already exist.

    Breaking weapons do have been tried, it works in games where all items are crafted and the item power is relatively low. In a game where people spend months to raid for a specific cool item it doesn't.

    I don't have a problem with that as such, but you need a system that puts the focus of the game on character development, not on looting items. Also, that a sword or a bow can break is logical and fine. A chainmail is less likely, it can take rather much punishment before you even have to repair it and to destroy it completelly you need something rather extreme (falling into a volcano, standing in front of a firebreathing dragon, having a giant stomp you into a puddle).

    I am not saying that armor shouldn't break as well but just that it should happen less often. The main armorkiller is really rust if we are talking about metal armor.

    Anyways, I don't think your solutions is enough. I think there are 3 things we need:

    1. A new way to feed the players the story. Quests is the standard solution for that even if some games uses dynamical events with varying success for the same purpose. Running quests just feels like almost any other MMO ever made and since you done so many of them a lot of people tire rather fast when they do the same quests in a new game. This is a hard one, I don't really have any good solution for it myself.

    2. New group combat dynamics. Almsot all games either uses trinity group mechanics or action combat mechanics. The trinity mechanics have been used for a long time and are currently rather dumbed down. Action combat mechanics often forgets group mechanics or have a very simplistic system. What we need is a good solid system that rewards teamwork, timing and tactics. You should have to use your brain in combat and work well together with others or you could as well play a single player game.

    3. New character mechanics. Almost all MMOs reward you XP for killing stuff, doing quests and maybe exploration. When you get enough XP you level up and get a class based packaged and maybe a point to put in specific feats. There are multiple problems with that but the main one is that it been overused far too long. Another is that your character gains a lot power fast but then suddenly stops in development which is when a large percentage of the players just quit.

    That system is basically D&D mechanics but with more levels and some lesser variation. I think looking on other pen and paper systems and see how they solved it would help here. Some of those systems like Paladium still have levels but have far more options and possibilities when you level up. Other systems like Runequest/Basic roleplaying, White wolfs storytelling system, Shadowrun and Warhammer fantasy RPG don't use levels at all and have different solutions for the players to gain power instead (usually with a far shorter powergap).


    In any case, when people think "this feel like Wow" you have failed in your new thinking.  A new generation of MMOs need to feel like something new and exiting, not like an slight improvement of games we already have. Also, many improvements (like better AI) is just things older popular games like Wow would patch in if you made it popular and that would once again have you competing with those games on their terms.

    Of course it is slightly different for sandbox games (which is why so many crowdfunded games try that instead of themeparks). Since they havn't been as overexposed you probably can get away with less changes there but the problem is that few sandboxes have done very well so the current mechanics of them have their own problems. And my 3 points need to be considered for them as well.

    This of of course just my personal opinion but I don't think we get another hit game with just improvements, at least not for a rather long while. Eventually could a nostalgic game probably get a lot of players but not now.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    bcbully said:
    “More intelligent AI” “NPCs that get mad at you”. /facepalm here we go again.

    OP real people exist. Why not invest in game systems that bring out the emergent game play you’re looking for instead of the trillion dollar R&D black hole of human acting NPCs?
    I don't think most people would stay 24 hours sharing out quests or peddling wares. While you can have 100% PCs in a game I think you would do better with having at least some npcs for the worst menial tasks unless you are going for a pure historical simulator.

    I rather not have too many NPCs though, or at least have most of them just as background noices. Some farmers working the field and such to give the game a little more solor. And I am not sure putting too much work into them is worth the effort.

    Yes, you could flirt with a well written npc barwench but you could as well do that with a PC instead. If you have questgivers they could be spiced up a little though and interact better with the players (and I don't mean Bioware styled long cutscenes).

    You have a limit on how much work you can put into a MMORPG and the question is if it is worth putting so much of it into your npcs instead of making more content or improving the combat mechanics.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,881
    Loke666 said:
    bcbully said:
    “More intelligent AI” “NPCs that get mad at you”. /facepalm here we go again.

    OP real people exist. Why not invest in game systems that bring out the emergent game play you’re looking for instead of the trillion dollar R&D black hole of human acting NPCs?
    I don't think most people would stay 24 hours sharing out quests or peddling wares. While you can have 100% PCs in a game I think you would do better with having at least some npcs for the worst menial tasks unless you are going for a pure historical simulator.

    I rather not have too many NPCs though, or at least have most of them just as background noices. Some farmers working the field and such to give the game a little more solor. And I am not sure putting too much work into them is worth the effort.

    Yes, you could flirt with a well written npc barwench but you could as well do that with a PC instead. If you have questgivers they could be spiced up a little though and interact better with the players (and I don't mean Bioware styled long cutscenes).

    You have a limit on how much work you can put into a MMORPG and the question is if it is worth putting so much of it into your npcs instead of making more content or improving the combat mechanics.
    Ahhh bar wenches, we would have our girl gamers queuing up to play one of those. :)

    Seriously it does make me wonder, would you get players who want to play all the NPCs? This is making me start to think of LARP.

    In LARP real people play the NPC's, the shop keepers, the bad guys, whatever is needed. And some roles are far more preferred than others, there can be real issues about who plays what.

    You could well need a allocating system like Left for Dead, that's your NPC for today, no complaints just get on with it. 
    cjmarsh

     25 Agrees

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,509
    What we need ,we can cal new because devs have not improved what other games started,instead they are trying to sell us much less but think just flagging pvp is good enough.

    I find it really pathetic that SOE started us on track with EQ then EQ2 added another layer but other than a couple games,nothing else has been improved since except graphics.Lack of depth and lack of systems are very noticeable,i don't want your lazy end game instance crap/gear grind.

    Every single developer leads us through linear zones,removing them one at a time from the game,so all we end up with is a couple end game zones and a bunch of instances.It is like devs are building these games off a template instead of hand building a world and design that makes sense.
    deniterMendel

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GuizeeGuizee Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Depends on what "new" means to you. MMO communities are very indecisive and volatile.
    cjmarsh
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,026
    Take "Vanilla World of Warcraft" from 2004 for instance.  You create a Night Elf on the island of Teldrassil, not much going on with your level one as you're holding on to you broken dagger.  But the mood is peaceful along with the music.  Nothing telling you what  to do as you naturally move forward....... Now this is 2004, you have that ugly yellow quest marker above everyone's head that many hate. 
    I can't respond to the OP's overall point because I can't discern one.

    But as to this portion, it just isn't so. There has never been a game more on rails and more hand holdy than WoW. You are led about from area to area, place to place, level to level, by an endless series of quests in a game where quest xp far exceeds xp of any other type. "Nothing telling you what to do" - give me a break. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,025
    Amathe said:
    Take "Vanilla World of Warcraft" from 2004 for instance.  You create a Night Elf on the island of Teldrassil, not much going on with your level one as you're holding on to you broken dagger.  But the mood is peaceful along with the music.  Nothing telling you what  to do as you naturally move forward....... Now this is 2004, you have that ugly yellow quest marker above everyone's head that many hate. 
    I can't respond to the OP's overall point because I can't discern one.

    But as to this portion, it just isn't so. There has never been a game more on rails and more hand holdy than WoW. You are led about from area to area, place to place, level to level, by an endless series of quests in a game where quest xp far exceeds xp of any other type. "Nothing telling you what to do" - give me a break. 
    WoW started the damn exclamation mark over NPC rubbish. See this old Gamspot review you can see the question mark over the NPC. That clearly tells you where to go and who to speak to. About as on rails as you can get. I mean let's not rewrite history here.

    https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/world-of-warcraft-review/1900-6114072/

    Questing in World of Warcraft helps lend a sense of purpose to all your hunting and exploring
    AmatheKyleran
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  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,911
    edited February 2018
    I stopped playing MMO's precisely because I got bored of the genre. I've done it all. It's not that we need to go back to the roots of MMO's. I think we are still attached to them. We need something different. 

    I played WoW in 04, lineage 2 in 05, EVE in 06-08 runes of magic in 09, ryzom in 11, Neverwinter in 13, and i tried Tera for a few hours, tried ESO for 4 hours, GW2 for 2 hours,  and i stopped because it was the same crap in a different skin, except EVE of course. 

    Nonetheless. The only MMORPG I keep going back to is EVE and entropia and that is only because it has a real world economy and I'm a moron of epic proportions. That game, Entropia Universe, is innovative, yes it is a video game wrapped around a slot machine. But I am trying to figure out a way to make profit in it. I think there is a way, and to make it less slot machine like. 

    Anyway. 

    I disagree with the OP.

    Cryomatrix
    p.s. This is just for Scot. I deposited $1000 USD into Entropia now that I came back :).


    Kyleran
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Member RarePosts: 1,643
    i dont need anything new, i just need Asherons Call turned back on.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    DrunkWolf said:
    i dont need anything new, i just need Asherons Call turned back on.

    Vanguard for me

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Scot said:
    Ahhh bar wenches, we would have our girl gamers queuing up to play one of those. :)

    Seriously it does make me wonder, would you get players who want to play all the NPCs? This is making me start to think of LARP.

    In LARP real people play the NPC's, the shop keepers, the bad guys, whatever is needed. And some roles are far more preferred than others, there can be real issues about who plays what.

    You could well need a allocating system like Left for Dead, that's your NPC for today, no complaints just get on with it. 
    Well, SWG did have plenty of PCs running NPC roles but you are right that it is a hard sell for most gamers. Particularly since MMOs ggenerally are all about combat, you get your epees from combat, not delivering beer to customers after all.

    So you basically either need those roles to be as fun as adventuring or you need to bribe the players to run those roles part of the time. Well, the third options is to make adventuring as boring as playing them which is easiest but also the dumbest option, let's skip that one.

    And of course, certain roles are more boring then others. Playing city guards could be rather amusing, you get a number of rules and if someone breaks them in your line of sight they become PvP flagged. I don't think you need much bribe to get players running something like that.

    Farmers can be made fun with the right sandbox mechanics, particularly if the farmer can produce stuff to your adventuring alt, Still need to make the farmers product really useful but raising horses, producing food and crafting mats could be enough reward.

    The hard sale is the menial work, I am not sure how you bribe someone to play garbage man, maid or similar hired help.

    I guess you could have a system where adventuring cost money and pays poorly so people need to run their spouses/relatives day time work to afford it but I ain't so sure people would like that at all.

    That is why I think you need at least some npcs, and also npcs do fill out the gameworlds cities and such. @bcbully might have some suggestions though, he wanted no npcs and he can certainly have ideas I never considered on the topic.

    All roles in a MMORPG need to have equal fun+ reward, you could have less of one and more of the otherto balance things out but if a role is short on both few players would consider it.
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,881
    I stopped playing MMO's precisely because I got bored of the genre. I've done it all. It's not that we need to go back to the roots of MMO's. I think we are still attached to them. We need something different. 

    I played WoW in 04, lineage 2 in 05, EVE in 06-08 runes of magic in 09, ryzom in 11, Neverwinter in 13, and i tried Tera for a few hours, tried ESO for 4 hours, GW2 for 2 hours,  and i stopped because it was the same crap in a different skin, except EVE of course. 

    Nonetheless. The only MMORPG I keep going back to is EVE and entropia and that is only because it has a real world economy and I'm a moron of epic proportions. That game, Entropia Universe, is innovative, yes it is a video game wrapped around a slot machine. But I am trying to figure out a way to make profit in it. I think there is a way, and to make it less slot machine like. 

    Anyway. 

    I disagree with the OP.

    Cryomatrix
    p.s. This is just for Scot. I deposited $1000 USD into Entropia now that I came back :).



    My god this is insane, unless you are a trust fund baby or something you need to exercise more prudence. Look at your wording "deposited", Entropia is not a bank. Even if you can make money this way, never over extend yourself.

    Ok, that's enough of me sounding like a public service announcement.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

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