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Why SBS is no longer using SpatialOS (simplified version)

2

Comments

  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 112
    I love how clueless nitwits from the COE forum keep coming up posting bullet lists of middleware solutions that Caspian provided them as proof of a working solution. As if saying they are going to use Node.js and Docker means anything more than they can google for "popular middleware applications which will impress my naive MMORPG customers".

    Node.js is just a backend server which happens to excel at long polling.
    Docker is just a containerization platform.
    etc.

    Saying you are using them doesn't mean anything, they aren't intrinsically pluggable. 

    You still have to do a bunch of shit to make anything of it, and unfortunately all that shit they have to do is stuff that SpacialOS was going to have done already for them.

    - - -

    HEY GOUYS! I'm going to build a house! We were going to have this contractor do it, but they cost too much money. But hey, don't worry. I am going to use rebar, and steel reinforced scaffolding, and pressure treated lumber, and galvanized steel nails. I've never built a house before, but no worries this will be easy.
    cjmarshNildenYashaXkrulerSpottyGekkoAsm0deuscraftseekerKyleranGdemamitweedledumb99
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    MaxBacon said:
    Going with a self-created solution for one MMO backend, may Gaming God have mercy on those poor souls.
    I don't think they're self-created reading through the list. It looks like they're just using different solutions for different needs rather than betting the farm on an all-in-one.
    The problem is the "all-in-one" solution was the heart of their game. As a former backer disenchanted by the decisions of the development team already, this comes as no surprise to me. Despite the enormous amount of work this will add to their already enormous (and severely underestimated) amount of work, it seems that the development team is going to try to roll their own version of this complicated software in a way that will end up delaying the game even further and possibly forever. They already bit off more than they could chew and now they're biting off even more in the classic indie developer mistake of all time: "let's create our own MMO from scratch!".
    TorvalGdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043
    cjmarsh said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Going with a self-created solution for one MMO backend, may Gaming God have mercy on those poor souls.
    I don't think they're self-created reading through the list. It looks like they're just using different solutions for different needs rather than betting the farm on an all-in-one.
    The problem is the "all-in-one" solution was the heart of their game. As a former backer disenchanted by the decisions of the development team already, this comes as no surprise to me. Despite the enormous amount of work this will add to their already enormous (and severely underestimated) amount of work, it seems that the development team is going to try to roll their own version of this complicated software in a way that will end up delaying the game even further and possibly forever. They already bit off more than they could chew and now they're biting off even more in the classic indie developer mistake of all time: "let's create our own MMO from scratch!".
    The PiedPiper is real!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,896
    genaknosc said:
    I love how clueless nitwits from the COE forum keep coming up posting bullet lists of middleware solutions that Caspian provided them as proof of a working solution. As if saying they are going to use Node.js and Docker means anything more than they can google for "popular middleware applications which will impress my naive MMORPG customers".

    Node.js is just a backend server which happens to excel at long polling.
    Docker is just a containerization platform.
    etc.

    Saying you are using them doesn't mean anything, they aren't intrinsically pluggable. 

    You still have to do a bunch of shit to make anything of it, and unfortunately all that shit they have to do is stuff that SpacialOS was going to have done already for them.

    - - -

    HEY GOUYS! I'm going to build a house! We were going to have this contractor do it, but they cost too much money. But hey, don't worry. I am going to use rebar, and steel reinforced scaffolding, and pressure treated lumber, and galvanized steel nails. I've never built a house before, but no worries this will be easy.
    Image result for crappy shack
    cjmarshgenaknosckrulerOctagon7711SpottyGekkoAsm0deusRhoklawtweedledumb99

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Have we considered this topic from a legal standpoint?

    For over a year SBS was able to see exactly how SpatialOS worked, which I assume is privileged information and NDAs were signed.

    Now after concluding that SpatialOS is too expensive, SBS is just going to use (read: steal) all that knowledge and build it themselves for free? How is that not going to result in a lawsuit once/if CoE is profitable?
    Octagon7711Gdemami
    --------------------------------------------
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,910
    Have we considered this topic from a legal standpoint?

    For over a year SBS was able to see exactly how SpatialOS worked, which I assume is privileged information and NDAs were signed.

    Now after concluding that SpatialOS is too expensive, SBS is just going to use (read: steal) all that knowledge and build it themselves for free? How is that not going to result in a lawsuit once/if CoE is profitable?
    I don't think Improbable is too worried about SBS reverse-engineering their product, lol

    We're talking about a company that's raised over $502M in funding. They'll squash SBS like a bug...
    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043
    Have we considered this topic from a legal standpoint?

    For over a year SBS was able to see exactly how SpatialOS worked, which I assume is privileged information and NDAs were signed.

    Now after concluding that SpatialOS is too expensive, SBS is just going to use (read: steal) all that knowledge and build it themselves for free? How is that not going to result in a lawsuit once/if CoE is profitable?
    Anyone who honestly believed they could do this was just foolish.  They couldn’t even deliver a mud... err... VoxElyria...
    So far after all this money and time all we’ve gotten is Links of Elyria.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    As I stated previously in this thread. The reason they gave for dropping SpacialOS is total BS.
    The JSSDK was depreciated. But it had always been listed as experimental. Meaning that SBS was basing their entire presentation of SpacialOS on the basis of experimental software? That's insane! I can't even believe even at the height of incompetence that someone isn't going to question the viability of this entire project in using that. Which means, it was a lie from the start. So, the real quesiton is..........Was SpacialOS ever really in the picture?
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043
    As I stated previously in this thread. The reason they gave for dropping SpacialOS is total BS.
    The JSSDK was depreciated. But it had always been listed as experimental. Meaning that SBS was basing their entire presentation of SpacialOS on the basis of experimental software? That's insane! I can't even believe even at the height of incompetence that someone isn't going to question the viability of this entire project in using that. Which means, it was a lie from the start. So, the real quesiton is..........Was SpacialOS ever really in the picture?
    In general, I honestly believe that Caspien does not try to scam anyone.  I think overall he genuinely believes what he says when he says it.  He just is missing that "adult in the room" to keep him at least lightly tethered to reality.
    GeezerGamerGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,820
    I don't understand what this thread is supposed to do.  It isn't convincing anyone that the dev team is not incompetent.....
    Slapshot1188Gdemami
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,822
    I think the real question is ‘What would Ghettomaster do?’

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,885
    lahnmir said:
    I think the real question is ‘What would Ghettomaster do?’

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Donate another 20 grand of course.
    Wellspring

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,102
    genaknosc said:


    Node.js is just a backend server which happens to excel at long polling.

    Except this part. Not sure where you got this info. 
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    As I stated previously in this thread. The reason they gave for dropping SpacialOS is total BS.
    The JSSDK was depreciated. But it had always been listed as experimental. Meaning that SBS was basing their entire presentation of SpacialOS on the basis of experimental software? That's insane! I can't even believe even at the height of incompetence that someone isn't going to question the viability of this entire project in using that. Which means, it was a lie from the start. So, the real quesiton is..........Was SpacialOS ever really in the picture?
    In general, I honestly believe that Caspien does not try to scam anyone.  I think overall he genuinely believes what he says when he says it.  He just is missing that "adult in the room" to keep him at least lightly tethered to reality.
    If what you are saying is true, I'll repeat myself.
    "That's insane!"
    But I think your reference to being disconnected from reality will suffice.
    craftseeker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043


    SpatialOS was for sure one of the key foundations of the concept of devopment

    the need to partner with SpatialOS has now been replaced with an explanation (read the actual post for more in depth details) and which programs etc they are going to use

    since these are pre-existing programs they don't have to spend a lot of time writing code etc - will it delay the game some? - not sure - VoxElyria is still slated for April of this year - we shall have to see



    Since it’s now we’ll past April (just a few days and it will be 2019) can we now all admit that the change had a massive impact on the production of the game?  Or is this still just some Harbingers being glass half empty people?  Just another instance where it was clear that what Caspien was claiming would never come to fruition but the Harbingers were ignored...

    Funny how people slunk away into the shadows as the delays mount and things like SpatialOS/ElyriaMud/VoxElyria are outright cancelled after all those resources went into them...

    Im sure the soon to be published State of Elyria will have new shinies to distract from the non-delivery of most of the stuff in last years State of Elyria.  

    WellspringGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200


    SpatialOS was for sure one of the key foundations of the concept of devopment

    the need to partner with SpatialOS has now been replaced with an explanation (read the actual post for more in depth details) and which programs etc they are going to use

    since these are pre-existing programs they don't have to spend a lot of time writing code etc - will it delay the game some? - not sure - VoxElyria is still slated for April of this year - we shall have to see



    Since it’s now we’ll past April (just a few days and it will be 2019) can we now all admit that the change had a massive impact on the production of the game?  Or is this still just some Harbingers being glass half empty people?  Just another instance where it was clear that what Caspien was claiming would never come to fruition but the Harbingers were ignored...

    Funny how people slunk away into the shadows as the delays mount and things like SpatialOS/ElyriaMud/VoxElyria are outright cancelled after all those resources went into them...

    Im sure the soon to be published State of Elyria will have new shinies to distract from the non-delivery of most of the stuff in last years State of Elyria.  

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Stare of Elyria gets cancelled too. 
    Kyleran
    --------------------------------------------
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043


    SpatialOS was for sure one of the key foundations of the concept of devopment

    the need to partner with SpatialOS has now been replaced with an explanation (read the actual post for more in depth details) and which programs etc they are going to use

    since these are pre-existing programs they don't have to spend a lot of time writing code etc - will it delay the game some? - not sure - VoxElyria is still slated for April of this year - we shall have to see



    Since it’s now we’ll past April (just a few days and it will be 2019) can we now all admit that the change had a massive impact on the production of the game?  Or is this still just some Harbingers being glass half empty people?  Just another instance where it was clear that what Caspien was claiming would never come to fruition but the Harbingers were ignored...

    Funny how people slunk away into the shadows as the delays mount and things like SpatialOS/ElyriaMud/VoxElyria are outright cancelled after all those resources went into them...

    Im sure the soon to be published State of Elyria will have new shinies to distract from the non-delivery of most of the stuff in last years State of Elyria.  

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Stare of Elyria gets cancelled too. 
    They never cancel a chance to fund raise.   
    Wellspring

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,130
    This game was dead the moment the idea came in the teams head. IF and I do mean a huge IF it ever comes out as stated in the fund raising I will eat my own words and admit I was wrong.

    |Changing from SOS because its too expensive.. lol thats kind of a joke. The cost is a small % and the amount of resources you use. That's just as if you went to AWS hosting instead. The only way you could get cheaper is if you hosted your own hardware on your own connection and even then that may not be cheaper.
    Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    All this problem needs is a nice crisp stack of hundred dollar bills and voila!  Completely solved.  Trust me, I have Gantt charts.
    Slapshot1188

    image
  • cochscochs Member UncommonPosts: 92
    This game was dead the moment the idea came in the teams head. IF and I do mean a huge IF it ever comes out as stated in the fund raising I will eat my own words and admit I was wrong.

    |Changing from SOS because its too expensive.. lol thats kind of a joke. The cost is a small % and the amount of resources you use. That's just as if you went to AWS hosting instead. The only way you could get cheaper is if you hosted your own hardware on your own connection and even then that may not be cheaper.

    SpatialOS is very expensive.  You can't compare mmo's to web services.  Mmo's chew up far more cpu especially with a lot of npc's, and you have to keep a minimum number of servers running you can't just do it all on demand.  SpatialOS itself is also not nearly as competitive, they have a pretty decent markup over cost compared to cloud services designed for the web.

    So the reason given was not a bad one, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  If you don't have someone on your team that was the primary architect on something similar, where it's all mostly just an implementation you have done before, you really want to use off the shelf if you can.

    I say that having put out the first open source framework that mirrors a lot of what SpatialOS does, before SpatialOS was even announced.  As it happened we made a lot of the same design choices and I've had conversations with the SpatialOS guys in the past.  SpatialOS is solid, it's a good choice.  Without a rock star mmo architect you really should just use SpatialOS.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,435
    genaknosc said:
    I love how clueless nitwits from the COE forum keep coming up posting bullet lists of middleware solutions that Caspian provided them as proof of a working solution. As if saying they are going to use Node.js and Docker means anything more than they can google for "popular middleware applications which will impress my naive MMORPG customers".

    Node.js is just a backend server which happens to excel at long polling.
    Docker is just a containerization platform.
    etc.

    Saying you are using them doesn't mean anything, they aren't intrinsically pluggable. 

    You still have to do a bunch of shit to make anything of it, and unfortunately all that shit they have to do is stuff that SpacialOS was going to have done already for them.

    - - -

    HEY GOUYS! I'm going to build a house! We were going to have this contractor do it, but they cost too much money. But hey, don't worry. I am going to use rebar, and steel reinforced scaffolding, and pressure treated lumber, and galvanized steel nails. I've never built a house before, but no worries this will be easy.
    LOL i like your analogy.

    Although i don't condone $$$ as the ONLY reason but there are no investors jumping in for the obvious reason,they don't see this game selling.
    I can't blame him,if he is actually passionate to get the game he wants done,then sure keep trying.
    However i have to say this,imo this is not and will not be the original desired game.Will it even be good,who knows if it will see the light of day,i think at this point he is struggling to keep this as an employment opportunity.

    Personally,i would NEVER...ever attempt to make a game like this,not the design but the monetary approach.If i couldn't get any investor to support my ideas,then i would simply scrap it and give up.Know why,well because i have passion for game design,i would want a AAA game or nothing at all but sadly ALL of the developers out there are in to make big profits and NOT deliver us AAA games.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043


    So the reason given was not a bad one, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  If you don't have someone on your team that was the primary architect on something similar, where it's all mostly just an implementation you have done before, you really want to use off the shelf if you can.

    I'm sure the intern working on this replacement is near the top of his class and will get an A for the project. I mean... 100000 simultaneous characters right?  Piece of cake!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,966
    For the smarty art software engineers can you explain:

    • What is the preferred database solution for a game, SQL or NonSQL (In general, I know there isn't one definitive solution)?
    • Why would a game developer use Node.js for their backend when JS has so many odd quirks about it. I know it has great real time capabilities but still... Javascript.
    Gdemami
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • cochscochs Member UncommonPosts: 92
    For the smarty art software engineers can you explain:

    • What is the preferred database solution for a game, SQL or NonSQL (In general, I know there isn't one definitive solution)?
    • Why would a game developer use Node.js for their backend when JS has so many odd quirks about it. I know it has great real time capabilities but still... Javascript.

    Database you can use most anything really, and proof of that is simply successful mmo's that have used very different databases.  Most of the frequently changing data in mmo's is temporary, it just lives in memory caches.  Plus, most of the better mmo designs have a 2 tier caching layer in front of the database.  Tier 1 local cache for local things.  Tier 2 distributed memory cache.  The second tier can then batch updates on a periodic basis to the database server.  The primary challenge is maintaining low latency everywhere.  Scaling is not a hard problem as mmo's don't generally have high database traffic. 

    Fortnite for example uses mongodb.  A number of years back I worked on a casual game that used mongodb at a billion plus queries per day scale.  I think we were one of if not the largest mongodb install at the time.  Fortnite is handling something like 10x what our volume was if not more by now.  Even Eve Online wouldn't come close to that.

    You wouldn't use Node.  Just the GC pauses alone would kill you and ya the performance is horrible.  Web requests can live with 100ms latency.  Multiplayer games can't.

    C#/Java/C++ are the dominant languages in game backends.  Often you will find a mix, usually C++/C# or C++/Java.  
    gervaise1FlyByKnightKyleran
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,102
    For the smarty art software engineers can you explain:

    • What is the preferred database solution for a game, SQL or NonSQL (In general, I know there isn't one definitive solution)?
    • Why would a game developer use Node.js for their backend when JS has so many odd quirks about it. I know it has great real time capabilities but still... Javascript.
    1. Whichever suits your needs and design. Likely using more than one and often more than one type.

    2. It's fantastic for certain tasks. I haven't looked at what they are using it for specifically, but don't expect it's going to do "everything".
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